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***** ALL-TIME NBA/ABA DRAFT ***** (Scoobus is Champion!) (3 Viewers)
- Thread starter Yo Mama
- Start date
Ilov80s
Footballguy
Oh I kind of took it as making some assumption about career trajectory. Also I’m looking at these as teams not a collection of awards. I’m not sure there’s anyone left that played in 10s that is a better pure scorer than Booker. My team needed a shooter/scorer.
Judging will be fun.......or better yet the reactions to the judging will be fun....hahahaa
Jayrod
Footballguy
Jo Jo White wasn't playing in the 2010's with those rules, philosophies and coaching. He won in his era under those rules and against that competition and in this draft, he's only up against 70's PGs. He was the best pick available based on that, IMO.
Booker has played in exactly zero playoff games and Mitchell in only 23 over three years, having never even made it to the WCF. They both have also made zero all-NBA teams.
Per game stats only tell a part of the story, team success another, awards another, advanced stats another, etc.. Put those things all together and then you have at least some basis for comparison across eras. When some of those are extremely deficient it should make for significant downgrades. We don't give Horry much credit for his 7 rings because he never won a single individual award in his entire career and didn't even start the majority of his career playoff games. Points/assists/rebounds per game for a guy who has only played 5 seasons will be skewed high because they haven't played in the twilight of their careers when their bodies break down and then are relegated to the bench or supporting roles.
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Yo Mama
Footballguy
Yo Mama
Footballguy
Yeah I think it’s unfair to the veteran players who have completed their careers to extrapolate anything going forward that hasn’t happened yet for the current players. You can’t go back and draft Bill Walton after his best season and assume he plays at an MVP level for years and ignore his post injury years.
Kev4029
Footballguy
That's why I also threw in the top three seasons.
I'm not saying that Mitchell and Booker were better selections, I just think it's very debatable.
As an aside, here is the beef I have with awards/ASG selections prior to probably the 2000s (and still a little now, but not nearly as much), but certainly through the 80s... The coverage of the NBA was strictly LA and the northeast. How many times do you think the writers in NYC got to watch David Thompson? Other than for the uber-elite talents (we can agree we are past that point in the draft), there wasn't much coverage of players from the flyover states. This is true of baseball, football, and basketball. Additionally, it was a whole hell of a lot easier to get an All-NBA nod or an AS game selection when there were 10 or fewer teams throughout most of the 50s and 60s, even with only two all-nba teams. There were only 18 teams in the NBA prior to the merger, then after the merger there were 22 but 4 of the ABA teams disappeared.
I'm not saying that Mitchell and Booker were better selections, I just think it's very debatable.
As an aside, here is the beef I have with awards/ASG selections prior to probably the 2000s (and still a little now, but not nearly as much), but certainly through the 80s... The coverage of the NBA was strictly LA and the northeast. How many times do you think the writers in NYC got to watch David Thompson? Other than for the uber-elite talents (we can agree we are past that point in the draft), there wasn't much coverage of players from the flyover states. This is true of baseball, football, and basketball. Additionally, it was a whole hell of a lot easier to get an All-NBA nod or an AS game selection when there were 10 or fewer teams throughout most of the 50s and 60s, even with only two all-nba teams. There were only 18 teams in the NBA prior to the merger, then after the merger there were 22 but 4 of the ABA teams disappeared.
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scoobus
Footballguy
13.4 Mookie Blaylock, PG, 90s
"...his work in other areas, such as rebounding (4.3 per game) and assisting (6.9) helped him shine as a player. Even more impressive than that, however, was his sturdiness on the less glamorous side of the ball. He led the league in steals twice (2.7 nightly in 1996-97 and 2.6 in the following season), averaging 2.4 takeaways per game for the decade.
His abilities on that end earned him the nickname “The Thief”, along with six All-Defensive berths (two on the first team, four on the second)."
Some elite defense to go with Mullin.
"...his work in other areas, such as rebounding (4.3 per game) and assisting (6.9) helped him shine as a player. Even more impressive than that, however, was his sturdiness on the less glamorous side of the ball. He led the league in steals twice (2.7 nightly in 1996-97 and 2.6 in the following season), averaging 2.4 takeaways per game for the decade.
His abilities on that end earned him the nickname “The Thief”, along with six All-Defensive berths (two on the first team, four on the second)."
Some elite defense to go with Mullin.
Kev4029
Footballguy
13.15 Mike Conley, PG 10s
Flying in the face of the argument I was just making for guys like Booker, Conley is pretty much the textbook definition for the hall of very good. A one time all-star (!!!) and one time all-defense player, he’s consistently been around the 20th best player in the league, but playing in the western conference and being a guard during the biggest guard boom in the history of the league has limited his awards and accolades. Like Lowry picked a couple rounds ago, Conley lacks the totally elite skills to make him a superstar, but also does everything well. Plus, he’s used to playing with slow ground bound centers that pass and shoot the ball well.
He really came into his own on the back half of his career, averaging 17.5 ppg, 5.8 apg, 1.3 spg while shooting 38% on threes. 24th in WS for the decade, ahead of all but two players who have yet to be drafted (the next nearest guard has 10 fewer WS).
@Yo Mama
Flying in the face of the argument I was just making for guys like Booker, Conley is pretty much the textbook definition for the hall of very good. A one time all-star (!!!) and one time all-defense player, he’s consistently been around the 20th best player in the league, but playing in the western conference and being a guard during the biggest guard boom in the history of the league has limited his awards and accolades. Like Lowry picked a couple rounds ago, Conley lacks the totally elite skills to make him a superstar, but also does everything well. Plus, he’s used to playing with slow ground bound centers that pass and shoot the ball well.
He really came into his own on the back half of his career, averaging 17.5 ppg, 5.8 apg, 1.3 spg while shooting 38% on threes. 24th in WS for the decade, ahead of all but two players who have yet to be drafted (the next nearest guard has 10 fewer WS).
@Yo Mama
I read all that and I agree there is a place to factor those things in nobody is talking about actually watching how they play. Shouldn't that be a significant factor in judging as well? I mean the whole point is for entertainment and a lot of the entertainment comes from actually watching the game play over crunching stats.
All that to say this is going to be a fascinating judging exercise. I wonder if it would be feasible to have various categories for the judging (gross stats, advanced stats, stats vs peers, visual beauty of play, style of play, etc...come up with whatever makes sense). I think a lot of the difficulty will come in that this is supposed to be graded based on a 5 man team from decade to decade and not the sum of the individuals (I may be wrong about that assumption). Many of the discussions have surrounded the individual player but that isn't necessarily the most important thing if the judging is based on the team.
I can't wait to watch how it unfolds...hahaha
Jayrod
Footballguy
Fun fact (that is fairly common knowledge at this point) - Pearl Jam originally were going to go by the name The Mookie Blaylocks. They decided not to for some reason, but did name their first album Ten because that was Blaylock's number.
Also, that is a great pick and a guy I really wanted to come back to me. He and Eddie Jones were both near the top of my draft list.
damn you. From the way the discussion has gone I made a big miscalculation in waiting on Mookie to take Donovan. Ugh!
Instinctive
Footballguy
Literally just decided it was time ot make him my next pick. LOL. I need to stop following the draft until I'm like 5 or less away.
I will blame @Ilov80sfor taking Devin Booker making me incorrectly think there would be a run on 2010 second half decaders....ugh.
Kev4029
Footballguy
I was desperate for a PG who wasn't a hot mess on defense - I almost made a big reach for him after Lowry was picked.
Ilov80s
Footballguy
All the comparisons are difficult given wild swings in style of play, physicality allowed, pace, existence and distance of the 3 point line, shot clock, number of teams, who was choosing the All Stars or MVPs, etc. It certainly all lends itself to more of a subjective feel than any objective measure. Basketball is art not math for sure.
Ilov80s
Footballguy
Donovan has more ASG than Mookie. Mookie was a great defensive player but I think it’s pretty clear Donovan is a better player and a franchise cornerstone, MVP potential player. I’m not sure I would ever say that about Mookie.
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Jayrod
Footballguy
When I left work yesterday, I actually wrote 5 names on a post it note for my next couple of picks in case I had to send them to someone.
I took my first 2 in Jamaal Wilkes and Jo Jo White. 2 of the other 3 were Eddie and Mookie.
Yo Mama
Footballguy
Ok, I think I’ll go with a guy that has been on my short list for a while now. Yo Mama selects:
13.16 - Ed Macauley, C/PF 60s
I’ll place him as a C for now but might move him to PF (he played both) depending on who else I draft later. Career averages of 17.5 points, 7.5 rebounds, and 3.2 assists. During a 7 year peak, he averaged 19/8/4.
Excellent all around player for his position who was also an efficient shooter for the time.
1x champ
4x all nba
7x all star
13.16 - Ed Macauley, C/PF 60s
I’ll place him as a C for now but might move him to PF (he played both) depending on who else I draft later. Career averages of 17.5 points, 7.5 rebounds, and 3.2 assists. During a 7 year peak, he averaged 19/8/4.
Excellent all around player for his position who was also an efficient shooter for the time.
1x champ
4x all nba
7x all star
Frostillicus
Footballguy
Jayrod
Footballguy
Mister CIA
Footballguy
wikkidpissah
Footballguy
Jayrod
Footballguy
I totally agree when looking at player vs player. However, I wanted Mookie paired with Pippen defensively for my 90's squad.
Yo Mama
Footballguy
And I guess I’ll go ahead and lock up my center positions since the pickings are getting slim. Yo mama selects:
14.01 - Vlade Divac, 90s C
I was pissed when the Lakers drafted him because I had no idea who he was and because there were bigger college names on the board at the time. I grew to love this guy as a Laker, a King, and the key piece to the Lakers getting Kobe. Also had some amazing local commercials, and could polish off a pack of Camels at half time.
Great all around player who could stretch the floor, defend, rebound, and most notably pass. Career averages of 11.8 points, 8.2 rebound, 3.1 assists, 1.1 steals and 1.4 blocks. During a 10 year stretch averaged 13/9/3 with 1.5 each steals and blocks.
He and Elgin can battle for worst GM on my team.
14.01 - Vlade Divac, 90s C
I was pissed when the Lakers drafted him because I had no idea who he was and because there were bigger college names on the board at the time. I grew to love this guy as a Laker, a King, and the key piece to the Lakers getting Kobe. Also had some amazing local commercials, and could polish off a pack of Camels at half time.
Great all around player who could stretch the floor, defend, rebound, and most notably pass. Career averages of 11.8 points, 8.2 rebound, 3.1 assists, 1.1 steals and 1.4 blocks. During a 10 year stretch averaged 13/9/3 with 1.5 each steals and blocks.
He and Elgin can battle for worst GM on my team.
Kev4029
Footballguy
14.02 JJ Redick, SG, 10s
He’s not the best player available and probably a reach, but he is one of the absolute best shooters of all time in the age where threes are such a priority and would be a fantastic fit as the offball shooter that the Nuggets/Jokic have never had. I won’t bother posting all of his stats because it’s mostly about the three point shooting. For all players that have ever made at least 1200 threes (Redick is at 1935 made - #4 all time), he is the 5th most accurate (behind Curry, Nash, Thompson, and [redacted]). I’m not looking for high volume scorers, or somebody that needs the ball in their hands to create offense, I’m looking for somebody who will stretch the defense and give Conley and Jokic room to operate in the dribble hand off and PnR game.
Just for funsies, here is JJ Redick compared to Klay Thompson over their 5 years previous to this one (their combined statistical peaks).Don’t get me wrong, Klay is the better player, but at least on the offensive side of the ball, it’s closer than most people realize and their complete offensive games are visually pretty similar.
Plus, somehow he is a universally beloved player from Duke… we should probably take into account that anomaly.
@scoobus
He’s not the best player available and probably a reach, but he is one of the absolute best shooters of all time in the age where threes are such a priority and would be a fantastic fit as the offball shooter that the Nuggets/Jokic have never had. I won’t bother posting all of his stats because it’s mostly about the three point shooting. For all players that have ever made at least 1200 threes (Redick is at 1935 made - #4 all time), he is the 5th most accurate (behind Curry, Nash, Thompson, and [redacted]). I’m not looking for high volume scorers, or somebody that needs the ball in their hands to create offense, I’m looking for somebody who will stretch the defense and give Conley and Jokic room to operate in the dribble hand off and PnR game.
Just for funsies, here is JJ Redick compared to Klay Thompson over their 5 years previous to this one (their combined statistical peaks).Don’t get me wrong, Klay is the better player, but at least on the offensive side of the ball, it’s closer than most people realize and their complete offensive games are visually pretty similar.
Plus, somehow he is a universally beloved player from Duke… we should probably take into account that anomaly.
@scoobus
EYLive
Footballguy
When my friend and I wanted to challenge ourselves on NBA Jam, we would pick the Lakers and play as Vlade. Seeing him doing crazy dunks was the best part of my weekday afternoons when I should have been doing homework.
modogg
Footballguy
scoobus
Footballguy
scoobus
Footballguy
It's pretty cool how he went from one of the most hated players ever at Duke to one of the coolest, most respected guys in the NBA.
Jayrod
Footballguy
scoobus
Footballguy
wikkidpissah
Footballguy
dang. seriously valuable player i knew i was waiting too long to pick. i was gonna fix that this round...
my HS sweetheart and lifetime friend went a li'l loopy during an ugly divorce and spent time in a fancy bin in AZ. she was in group w Rudy T there who, 30 yrs after The Punch, was still in full nightmare mode w PTSD about it. sweet, but tortured man, she said
Ilov80s
Footballguy
For sure, that was more of a defense of The Donovan pick not being too early than a criticism of Mookie.
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
He is. I was at Seton Hall while he was coaching there. My buddy who was a DJ at WSOU, the school’s heavy metal radio station, was standing outside the door with another guy from the station smoking (WSOU was in the same building as the old gym), and PJ walks out past them turns around and says “Put them cigarettes out you dirt bags” and walks away. They were too shocked to say anything back.
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Yo Mama
Footballguy
Yo Mama
Footballguy
Jayrod
Footballguy
Doug taking his time on this one. He's been in the thread the whole time he's been on the clock. Must be a tough choice here.
Doug B
Footballguy
14.05: PG Sam Cassell, 2000s
Cassell was the plucky second-unit PG for the Rockets' title squads as a young player. He left Houston to become a starter in New Jersey for a season, and then a solid 4-season run in Milwaukee where he bloomed into a steady 19-4-7 guy. Later made the All-Star team with the Timberwolves at age 34.
@Mister CIA
Cassell was the plucky second-unit PG for the Rockets' title squads as a young player. He left Houston to become a starter in New Jersey for a season, and then a solid 4-season run in Milwaukee where he bloomed into a steady 19-4-7 guy. Later made the All-Star team with the Timberwolves at age 34.
@Mister CIA
Doug B
Footballguy
Had Randolph pretty much penciled and had to re-assess the board before going with Cassell.
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