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***** ALL-TIME NBA/ABA DRAFT ***** (Scoobus is Champion!)


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12.14 Arvydas Sabonis C 90s Most of the richest people in Australia are in satellite communications. Without satellites, they wouldnt get no media Down Under, so they were on it early. 35 ye

Sorry guys. Probably won’t be able to do results today. One of my dogs has pretty bad cancer and isn’t doing too well. I need to take care of him today.    I’ll do the results tomorrow. 

Hey guys, my NBA interest started to wane with the ascension of MJ / decline of the Bad Boys. I don’t think I would be able to render quality judging in the remaining decades so I’m going to bow out.

4 hours ago, wikkidpissah said:

i am thrilled beyond repair for the chance to skim the efforts of others, throw together some revisionist ramble and pick nits with my innerweb pals til it gets personal

That’s the spirit!

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2 hours ago, scoobus said:

Hooray!!

When I did my objective scoring system your team won by an absolute landslide. The difference between your team and team #2 was the same difference as team #2 and team #13. If anything, maybe you put too much investment into this decade. 

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IlovPantheon Team

Starters

PG Isaiah Thomas- complete PG who separates himself among the top tier PGs by being one of the few who could take over a game with his scoring

SG Joe Dumas- HOF, B2B world champion backcourt that won during the era of Magic, Bird and Jordan, elite perimeter defense, tremendous basketball IQ and dead eye shooter. 

SF Dominique Wilkens- in a sport full of explosive athletes, Dominique is still the gold standard for the combination of power and grace. Absolutely unstoppable at the rim, a ridiculous scoring machine. 

PF Bob Pettit- 2x MVP who retired at 32 as the NBA’s all time leading scorer. Sure he played a long time ago and we didn’t see him but Basketball Reference has his 2 closest comps as Larry Bird and Charles Barkley. Advanced stats love him as well: 36th best win share of all time, 16th best win share/48 all time, 7th highest PER all time, 8th highest PPG all time, 3rd all time rebounds per game.   

C Bill Russell- Best defensive player of all time, just look at all the MVPs, all the rings, his desire to win and the way he elevates everyone around him. Besides being a defensive stalwart and rebounding machine, he is also the biggest advantage in the draft because he is a championship winning coach. Combine him with Dumars and this team is completely self sufficient, being well run from top to bottom. 

Bench:

C/PF Bob McAdoo- Nice to have the luxury of an MVP coming off the bench. Every team needs a scorer they can bring in to spark the offense. This also helps hide his deficiencies on defense and his me-first attitude. He brings a great counter to the post games of Pettit and Russel as McAdoo was a shooter and Kevin Durant style player. 

C Jack Sikma- With my team being older, built around the 60s-90s, I wanted to make sure they could play with the more modern teams. Enter Jack Sikma, the original stretch 5, smooth scorer and a plus defender. Top 75 all time in win shares, defensive win shares and value over replacement. 

SG/SF Jimmy Butler- Rusesll knew how to relate with everyone and draw out their best basketball. He would keep Butler inspired and Buckets could play the key role as the glue guy doing all the little things we need and providing the hustle to impact games. He is also a great counter for Dominique when we need to go more defensive. Dumars could also slide to point and we could get Butler at the 2 spot if we wanted a bigger lineup. 



 

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wikkid Pantheon:

PG - Magic Johnson

SG - Clyde Drexler

SF - Bernard King

PF - Dave Cowens

C - Patrick Ewing

---------------------

G - Earl Monroe

F - Gus Johnson

Everything - Ben Simmons

 

Thing i like best about this team is that it has 2 of the 3 SwissArmy unicorns (LeBron being the other) who can legit play all 5 positions. The coverage having Magic & Simmons on the court at the same time is unprecedented. Another thing i dig is my backcourt - my starters are literally head & shoulders above yours and i have the perfect 2-way sub in Pearl to further piss you off and wear you out. Don't think it's particularly close to 2nd (prob mr timmy's Frazier/Harden/Penny). Another aspect i like a lot is having two OGs - Gus Johnson (who defended all 3 frontcourt positions) was the original Skywalker and Monroe was the original usage guy (we need a better name for that). The thing i like that i'm not gonna talk about is that Bernard King at his peak was the best 1-on-1 scorer i ever seen, cuz aint none of you gonna believe it.

Thing I wanna talk about most though is the guy who ties it all together. After enduring a season of Hank Finkel as Bill Russell's replacement, i groaned with everybody else when Auerbach drafted a 6'8 white guy to solve the problem. The 70s had all them Towers - Kareem, Wilt, Lanier, Walton, Reed, Artis and the human roadblock called Wes Unseld. Dave Cowens got the Celts past all of em, twice in three years. What apparently only Red knew was that he had indeed hired Russ's truest replacement, the guy who'd figure you da #### OUT like nobody but Russ and nobody since. Take you low, take you high, take you wide, pass around you then sneak past you for the board, then just plain mess you up when you got in his zone. The guy just did&did&did. Now the Celtics 70s frontcourt of Cowens/Silas/Hondo simply doesnt compare in achievement to the Dr J/Elvin/Artis trio that Higgsy rode to the Best-in-Show finals. But they're gonna take em to the 7th game every time and not worry one li'l bit about winning that. And that's Dave.

 

 

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This is the ranking we've all been building for this entire contest. This team, like some of my others, has a calling card: balanced construction. I have multiple MVP-winning players. I have multiple NBA Finals MVPs. I have multiple Defensive Players of the Year. I have 5 players who made all-defensive teams, and the three that didn't have won the MVP and/or led the league in scoring multiple times. By the way, only FOUR NBA players have ever registered a quadruple double. Two of them (Alvin Robertson and Nate Thurmond) are on this team, with Robertson the only ever non-Center to do it (and the only 10-steal guy). 

The starters will have four guys there every time: Oscar, Thurmond, Dirk, and Kawhi. The fifth will most commonly, I think, be Alvin Robertson, as he provides the best balance and a perfect lower-usage option for the team. Then, coming off the bench will typically be McGrady, one of the three best "get a bucket" sixth men in the contest (AI, Barry being my other votes on that note), alongside two more multi-time all-defense players and champions in Billups and Wallace (who provides another FOUR DPOYs to the squad. It's also nice that in a contest like this, I have tons of lineup combinations where nobody plays out of position, and a couple fun options for small ball or 90s ball or whatever you need with guys who played more than one slot effectively in their career. With the teams drafted, having five guys whose usage rates fit well together and who never have to play out of position is actually super rare.

Here are some overall stats for the accolade collectors:

  • Two MVPs
  • Four NBA Finals MVPs
  • 43 all-NBA selections
  • 7 Defensive Player of the Year awards (didn't exist until after Thurmond retired - I believe this is the most of any team, and the most balanced, across 3 positions of different winners)
  • 25 all-defensive team selections
  • Season stat titles: Blocks (again not tracked for Thurmond), Assists (x6), Scoring (2x), Steals (4x), Rebounds (2x)
  • 4 All-star MVPs
  • 58 all-star selections
  • Two Most Improved Player awards
  • 6 NBA championships

I tried to project out Hall of Famers...six of my eight are obvious HOFers (or already in) as Oscar (in), Nate (in), McGrady (in), Dirk (100%), Kawhi (78%), and Billups (84%). Wallace is a near coin-flip at 45% , and Alvin is not getting in. 

So either 6 or 7 guys I would say are Hall of Famers - and the 1/2 who are not were both DPOY winners who rounded out perfectly any team that needed it.

 

Likeliest starting combo:

Oscar Robertson - the best or second best PG of all time (depending on how much you love Magic like some in this draft certainly do and which I cannot begrudge). He was the first real big guy, a dominant athlete, and played in all facets of the game. Another thing tying him and Magic together? Kareem couldn't win without one of them on his team. The triple double king (and still reigning today, 50 years later), The Big O gets everyone involved, pours in buckets, and has length to harass some of these little fellas people are starting and tons of switchability.

Alvin Robertson - The smallest guy on my team is a 6'3" multi-time steal champ and a DPOY who's nickname was literally the Dog, because he would hound you at all points of the game. Among the best ever at defending Michael Jordan (as if anyone truly can), Robertson was also the guy who could guard Magic, Bird and the other icons of the 80s as well. 

Kawhi Leonard - One of the greatest isolation scorers in the game, Kawhi has evolved from the best possible version of a 3 and D player (a 50/40/90-esque shooter who won multiple DPOYs and could guard Bosh, LeBron, and Wade effectively all on the same possession), to a guy with those same "Klaw" skills at taking the ball away or stifling your game who ALSO scores 25+ PPG like it's nothing and can be the best guy on a championship team. Kawhi brings switchability across 3-4 positions in this format, as there are far more giant centers in this thing than in his time in the NBA, and similarly some behemoth PFs that will allow Kawhi to do his job of containing guys like Mike, Magic, Bird, Gervin, King, etc etc. 

Dirk Nowitzki - another MVP winner, 50/40/90, the greatest shooting big man of all time, the highest scoring foreign player of all time, the classiest player of all time, record holder for NBA seasons in a one-team career, and Charles Barkley's favorite player of all time, Dirk is incredible. In a contest like this where many PFs can defend the post super well, a guy like Dirk pulling them out into uncomfortable areas will be a nasty component to a squad already suited to put up buckets. Dirk is also one of the all-tine leading defensive rebounders, important in a contest where many teams will crash the glass well.

Nate the Great Thurmond - Also known as the Chairman of the Boards, Thurmond is one of the 10 greatest centers of all time, and is perhaps the second greatest defensive center of all time after Bill Russell (I mean you could argue for 4-time DPOYs Ben Wallace or Dikembe also, but when Kareem himself declares the old-age version of Thurmond the hardest guy to score on in his whole career, I listen). In a league variously with Russell, Wilt, and Kareem throughout his career, Nate is the one who got the nickname for rebounding. He is the first ever recorded quadruple double (one of only 4 guys ever to do it, including Alvin Roberston), and is widely acknowledged as a fantastic teammate who would fit with any personalities.

Bench:

Tracy McGrady - one of the greatest pure scorers ever, McGrady could get you buckets and that's exactly what he'll do for us. An evolutionary version of Rick Barry and George Gervin, McGrady put his forward size into a guard's skillset and ethos, handling the ball as a point forward, distributing, scoring, and using his length to harass and shoot over and post up the often smaller guards.

Chauncey Billups - another on the amazing teammate list, Billups was the finals MVP for the 2004 Detroit Pistons and a key cog in their multiple-year run of success in the early 2000s, as well as some of the most successful Nuggets teams ever. ANOTHER 50-40-90-esque career shooter, Billups is a calm floor general, one of the greatest FT shooters of all time, a distributor and also a guy who doesn't need the ball, and al all-defensive presence at either guard spot. He can fill in for as well as play alongside Oscar, Alvin, McGrady, and Kawhi at any PG/SG position.

Ben Wallace - a FOUR-TIME DPOY, Wallace is an awesome resource for this team. He is clearly the weakest scorer, but surrounding him with at least three of the firepower of Dirk, McGrady, Oscar, Chauncey, and Kawhi at all times allows him to do what he does best - totally lock down one opposing player, get into transition, crash the glass, generate steals and blocks, and switch across all five positions. You can tell me he's short, but he has crazy long wingspan, and anyone who can shut down Shaq in his prime to take home an NBA title amidst his four DPOY seasons can hold his own as well as anyone else can hope to against Kareem, Wilt, and their ilk. He rounds out a 3-man bench that has a scoring punch, a flexible super-sub, and now a defensive punch so this team can adapt to whatever situation comes before it.

 

Core sets:

Pick and Roll or Pop: Any of Oscar, McGrady, Billups, Kawhi with Dirk. The deadliest will probably be McGrady or Oscar with Billups and Kawhi spotting up.

Pick and Roll with Wallace or Nate: Dirk spots up too now? Wide open floor for Oscar or McGrady in this little two man gamee they can create. 

There are a number of awesome groups of five I can run with this team beyond our incredible starts as well, so lineup balance will never be an issue. 

Mega shooting lineup for some super pace fun: Oscar, Billups, McGrady, Kawhi, Dirk

Mega defense lineup: Billups, Robertson, Kawhi, Wallace, Thurmond (that's 3 DPOYs, all five guys with multiple all defensive teams, and likely that Thurmond would have added a 4-th DPOY winner when you read all the things said about him and recall he retired before the award was created) This team also has big time paint control and defense, an all-time elite isolation creator in Kawhi, and four other guys who are defensively dominant.

Three-guard fun lineup: Oscar, Alvin, Billups, Dirk, Ben Wallace - this lineup is awesome. It's jam-packed with offensive talent, yet somehow still has two guys who won DPOY on the court alongside the 2 MVPs.

Balanced combos: With 2 of Oscar, Alvin, Billups, or McGrady at all times, two of Dirk, Thurmond, Wallace at all times, and Kawhi or McGrady likely manning the three, I can kind of do anything and match anyone's team, or create some mismatches of our own. 

Pretty tall lineup: Oscar (6'5'), McGrady (6'8"), Kawhi (6'7'), Dirk (7'0"), Thurmond (6'11") has wingspan out the wazoo, a DRB% that looks likely to be over 80% (hard to tell because it isn't tracked in Oscar's career and only at the tail end of Thurmond's, but I still get over 80% before including anything from Oscar and without a bump for Thurmond's prime soooooo) alongside some shotblocking and, as usual on this squad, a bunch of shooting and scoring and DPOY presence.

 

I love this team. I love it so much. 

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sleepy so this will be quick:

PG - Stockton

SG - Jordan

SF - Connie Hawkins

PF - CHris Bosh

C - Joel Embiid

6th man/first off the bench/possible closer - Allen Iverson

back-up G - Hal Greer

back-up big - "Sheed Wallace

 

I'm going to guess this will come down to how Embiid is viewed by most in here. Guy has seperated himself into the top 5 centers of all time already. if we did this in 10 years and took Embiid's entire career, guy would be a 1st round pick

you can take any 4 guys and put prime Jordan on that team and win at least 67% of your games, likely much more. 

Defensively this team would be under-rated. Biggest argument against by best in show was being able to hold up in the middle. Having both Bosh and Embiid on this team completely changes that argument. So defensively, these 2 guys could easily handle the other bigs out there. People will argue Shaq or others could hang, so let us remember one key element to the comparisons, the offense. 

         Embiid is better than most of the big guys in this pantheon discussion because he is a more efficient and effective scorer. he is basically a 50-40-90 guy. being able to score at all 3 levels, and hitting close to 90% of his FTs, while also being able to draw fouls has him as one of the most dominant bigs in this conversation. Bosh offers support as being able to play at different levels as well, and has shown enough variabiliy from his dominance in his early career, to his taking a backseat play with Miami

My bench is a blitzkrieg as well. I'll focus on A.I. because he can play with any assortment of players, and is easily good for 25+ as a 6th man coming in when needed. Hal Greer is one most won't know a ton about, but he played similarly and can be efficient as a PG or SG. 

Honestly, i don't know what else to say about this team. other teams in here shine on offense, or different elements of a basketball game, but this pantheon team here excels at all facets of the game. Really can't think of much of a counter argument to how they would crush opponents

Just thinking about a line-up near the end of a game with AI, Jordan, and Embiid on the court at the same time. guaranteed baskets and steals and if they happened to miss the shot they are drawing a foul

Edited by modogg
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7 hours ago, modogg said:

I'm going to guess this will come down to how Embiid is viewed by most in here. Guy has seperated himself into the top 5 centers of all time already. if we did this in 10 years and took Embiid's entire career, guy would be a 1st round pick

         Embiid is better than most of the big guys in this pantheon discussion because he is a more efficient and effective scorer. he is basically a 50-40-90 guy. being able to score at all 3 levels, and hitting close to 90% of his FTs

You're ####### insane. First off, he isn't close to 50-40-90. He's a career 33% 3pt shooter and 80% from the line. In this, his best shooting year ever, he's 37% from three and 85.5% from the line. Not close. 

Second of all...Russell, Kareem, Reed, Hakeem, Robinson, Shaq, Cowens, Moses, Walton is just the beginning of the list of guys who play Center and also have actually won an MVP. Add in Howard, Thurmond, Wallace, Gilmore, Ewing, Mikan, Bellamy off the top of my head as obviously ahead of him still.

This doesn't even consider guys widely considered PFs who are Centers, like Duncan, AD, and Giannis. It doesn't consider guys who played the position more than 40 games a year and actually won stuff like Dikembe, Mourning, Daugherty...or guys who were just as good or better but haven't won stuff, like Demarcus Cousins...

If you think your pantheon team is going to come down to how Embiid is viewed AND you see him as a top 5 center of all time, you're going to find out that you're delusional.

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1 hour ago, Instinctive said:

You're ####### insane. First off, he isn't close to 50-40-90. He's a career 33% 3pt shooter and 80% from the line. In this, his best shooting year ever, he's 37% from three and 85.5% from the line. Not close. 

Second of all...Russell, Kareem, Reed, Hakeem, Robinson, Shaq, Cowens, Moses, Walton is just the beginning of the list of guys who play Center and also have actually won an MVP. Add in Howard, Thurmond, Wallace, Gilmore, Ewing, Mikan, Bellamy off the top of my head as obviously ahead of him still.

This doesn't even consider guys widely considered PFs who are Centers, like Duncan, AD, and Giannis. It doesn't consider guys who played the position more than 40 games a year and actually won stuff like Dikembe, Mourning, Daugherty...or guys who were just as good or better but haven't won stuff, like Demarcus Cousins...

If you think your pantheon team is going to come down to how Embiid is viewed AND you see him as a top 5 center of all time, you're going to find out that you're delusional.

could not disagree more. Look through all of those centers and tell me who drew similar amount of fouls, took shots from the 3 line, and hit over 80% (with ease) from the FT line. 

if we are looking at guys at their career trajectory, there is no reason to not think embiid can continue at his current pace for the next 3 years. he has been on the upward trajectory every year, and is playing without issues with his foot or back now. if we look at players and factor in injury related concerns, Embiid should be considered similarly with his shorter career and his current trajectory up. 

and Connie Hawkins does not factor in with injury related people, because he was out of basketball/NBA for longer than he should be for some b.s

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9 hours ago, higgins said:

Embiid hasn't ever been all-NBA first team & yet he "has seperated himself into the top 5 centers of all time already".

Oookay :shrug:

All-NBA, All-Star and MVP are all kind of a joke, no? people are still suggesting Lebron this year for the MVP, and the guy hasn't played for most of the season. 

if we are basing judging off of these media driven rewards, then fine, my team will probably not soar as high. but if it is based on actual play on the court, it should be weighed in. 

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are we also factoring in to this judging how much better the athletes are now adays, as opposed to the 60s and 70s when sports science was way behind where it is today?

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On 4/17/2021 at 11:17 AM, Ilov80s said:

When I did my objective scoring system your team won by an absolute landslide. The difference between your team and team #2 was the same difference as team #2 and team #13. If anything, maybe you put too much investment into this decade. 

Oh for sure, wasn’t really the plan at all, just kind of worked out that way. I drafted Shaq(90s) when he fell in the first round. I then took KG(00s) over Durant(10s) and Curry(10s) solely because I was trying to avoid the most current guys at the top of the draft. Coming back I was hoping for Kawhi(10s) but figured it was unlikely, so then I targeted a PG. I had I Thomas(80s) and Paul(10s) ahead of Kidd(00s) and Nash(00s), but both were both correctly picked before it got to me. After Kidd, with lineup I had going so far, I wanted one of the knockdown shooters of R Miller(90s), R Allen(00s), or Klay(10s), and wouldn’t you know it both Reggie and Klay went before me, leaving only Allen.

Then I got competitive and switched Shaq over to the 00s after Instinctive posted his thing lol, with the intention of probably switching him back. But after Tyson Chandler (who I thought would’ve been a great fit for the team and was drafted way too low imo) got picked, and after seeing the best in show thing got double points, I decided to just leave it.

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43 minutes ago, modogg said:

are we also factoring in to this judging how much better the athletes are now adays, as opposed to the 60s and 70s when sports science was way behind where it is today?

Everyone is doing this differently, but I absolutely am not factoring that in. I'm doing my best to think through A) what would this guy have been like back then without all these benefits and B) what would that guy be like today WITH all these benefits? One key element of that is how they distanced themselves from their peers, just the value in things like MVP, DPOY, All-NBA, etc. 

 

It's a funny argument that only exists in sports. Like, if you took all the greatest generals would George Washington and Napoleon get dominated by anyone from WWII because they have better tech and know more about tactics of war? Is Galileo now an idiot who wouldn't be able to contribute to science today because we all know so much more than the stuff he hypothesized? Are Lindbergh and Earhart mediocre pilots because tons of men and women can fly planes around the world over long distances now? Was Rockefeller a mediocre investor because Bezos built an empire on the internet to dwarf the size of his in terms of dollars?

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1 hour ago, modogg said:

All-NBA, All-Star and MVP are all kind of a joke, no? people are still suggesting Lebron this year for the MVP, and the guy hasn't played for most of the season. 

if we are basing judging off of these media driven rewards, then fine, my team will probably not soar as high. but if it is based on actual play on the court, it should be weighed in. 

Of course actual play matters. That's why people who know more about it than you do vote on it and have for 60+ years.

 

EMBIID HASN'T WON AN MVP (and I'd bet he never will)

HE'S MADE THE ALL-NBA TEAM TWICE. Yeah All-Nba teams matter. That hurts Embiid, doesn't help him.

Centers who made more than two all-NBA teams (mostly when there were only 2 centers and not like today where 3 get selected):

Kareem

Shaq

Hakeem

Wilt

Schayes

Russell

Robinson

Howard

Malone

Ewing

Mikan

Daniels

Gilmore

Johnston

Lucas (maybe a PF)

Yao

Reed

Stoudemire (maybe a PF)

Wallace

Pau Gasol

Cowens

Gobert

DEANDRE JORDAN

Dikembe

Only two:

Beaty

Cousins

Coleman

Now we finally get to Embiid and his two selections (neither of which was first team btw)

Jokic

Mourning

McAdoo

Some old guys whose names I don't recognize

More guys but I'm tired of checking to make sure they are centers

Bill Walton

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1 hour ago, modogg said:

if we are looking at guys at their career trajectory, there is no reason to not think embiid can continue at his current pace for the next 3 years. he has been on the upward trajectory every year, and is playing without issues with his foot or back now. if we look at players and factor in injury related concerns, Embiid should be considered similarly with his shorter career and his current trajectory up. 

 

I, and at least a couple others, are on the record as explicitly not considering career forward trajectory. We've even discussed doing a forward looking draft.

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1 minute ago, Instinctive said:

I, and at least a couple others, are on the record as explicitly not considering career forward trajectory. We've even discussed doing a forward looking draft.

I don't think it's especially fair to look beyond this season as it is a bit of a crap shoot.

And with Embiid, taking a forward looking career trajectory is especially difficult. He's played a total of 247 of 539 games (or in the seasons he actually played - 247/375 @ 30MPG).

Embiid's stats are also being heavily impacted by shooting %s this year that are very likely unsustainable. He's shooting 58% from midrange this season - his career % otherwise is 39%. He's shooting 38% from 3 but otherwise is a career 32% shooter. He's shooting 48% on short jumpers (10-16') but is a career 40% shooter. His FT% is 86% but he is a career sub 80% shooter. He's in better shape this year, but that doesn't explain all of the increases.

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you're both goofy. anyone who watches Embiid  and doesnt see Shaq with a shot better look again, and anyone who sweats Embiid and doesn't fear at least a half dozen ways he could check out on you ain't paying attention. the line on him simply hasnt been established. i'll take all bets (for charity, of course) against him winning multiple MVPs though.

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1 hour ago, modogg said:

are we also factoring in to this judging how much better the athletes are now adays, as opposed to the 60s and 70s

No (but the judging results appear to indicate otherwise).  As the drafter with all-timers like Mikan at the 5 and Iceman at the 2...I certainly hope not.

5 minutes ago, wikkidpissah said:

i'll take all bets (for charity, of course) against him winning multiple MVPs though.

Same here.  Embiid seems like a poor bet to stay healthy long enough to put up numbers for a decade.  I hope so though, because he is so damn skilled for a 5.

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Jayrodsquad of All-Time

  • PG - Damian Lillard - 5x All-NBA, 6x All-star, ROY.  Starts the offense and spreads the floor, secondary P&R ball handler.  Dame was the best offensive player in the league last season 2019-20 (#1 in OWS & OBPM).  He is the most feared player at the end of the game in the league today.  He's done it long enough to carve out a starting role at this level and his shooting will space the floor for the rest of my All-time greats.  He is a known leader and ferocious competitor and has received MVP votes each of the last 3 seasons.
  • SG - Dwyane Wade - 8x All-NBA, 3x Champ, 1x Finals MVP, 1x Scoring Champ, 3x All-Def, 13x All-star.  Primary P&R ball handler, slasher, primary perimeter defender.  There is MJ, there is Kobe and then next is DWade.  An all-time elite scoring guard and arguably the best slasher in history.  Kobe said that guarding Wade on the P&R was the most difficult play to guard in the NBA because he "would just disappear".  He was also a phenomenal defensive player and could turn defense to offense as well as anyone.
  • SF - Paul Pierce - 4x All-NBA, 1x Champ, 1x Finals MVP, 10x All-star. 3rd offensive option, floor spreader, defender and rebounder. The Truth had an old man game from his days in college.  I think he gets incorrectly downgraded because he seemed to be moving in slow motion most of the time, but the advanced metrics don't lie...he was an all-time great NBA player and a good athlete.  He could score at all 3 levels, rebounded well and defended well.  He can't be left alone on offense and he can hold his own on defense and the boards.  Having Pierce as a 3rd option on this offense is an embarrassment of riches.
  • PF - Giannis Antetokounmpo - 2x MVP, 1x DPOY, 4x All-NBA, 3x All-Def. Defensive stopper, P&R screener, rebounder.  I have the freakiest athlete since Shaq and he doesn't even have to worry about being the primary scorer on this team.  Imagine Giannis just being free to roam.  Flash to the high post, pick and roll or pick and pop, run the floor on the break, wreak havoc on defense.  All of that energy, length and strength free to just find gaps and attack would be terrifying for a defense to stop.
  • C - Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - HOF, 6x MVP, 6x Champ, 2x Finals MVP, 15x All-NBa, 11x All-Def, 19x All-star.  Post scorer, rebounder and rim protector.  The greatest center of all time.  All-time scoring champ.  Would have won multiple DPOY awards if it existed during his prime.  Owns the 2 greatest WS/48 seasons in history.  Wikkid resents him for coasting through several seasons, but he couldn't control his environment like LeBron has been able to and at least he didn't just outright quit playing like Jordan.  More MVP's than anyone ever.  At 7'2", His skyhook is the single most unguardable play in the history of the game.
  • BENCH PG/SG - Dennis Johnson - HOF, 3x Champ, 1x Finals MVP, 2x All-NBA, 9x All-Def, 5x All-star.  Defensive stopper and distributor off the bench.  He led the Sonics to their only championship in 1979.  He shut down Magic in 1984 finals to win the title.  Bird called him his greatest teammate and Magic said he was the toughest backcourt defender of all time.  If the matchup warrants it, I could start DJ over Lillard.
  • BENCH SF - Adrian Dantley - HOF, 2x Scoring Champ, 2x All-NBA, 6x All-star, ROY. Bench scorer.  Dude was a walking bucket in the 80's.  He lived in the midrange and shot 54% for his career and averaged 8.7 FT's per game.  His headfakes, pumpfakes and footwork were impeccable and nearly impossible to guard.  I don't need him to do anything on this squad but come in and get points off the bench, which he will do with aplomb.
  • BENCH PF - Spencer Haywood - HOF, 1x Champ, 1x ABA MVP, 4x All-NBA, 5x All-star. Bench post rebounder and defender. Haywood spent 1 year in the ABA and so utterly dominated, he is considered one of that league's best of all-time.  He then wasted a year fighting the NBA in court.  Once he got into the league, he won 4 straight All-NBA and All-Star awards, getting MVP votes and averaging 25.4 ppg and 12.1 rpg over those seasons.  After that, his career was derailed by drugs, but for about 6 years he was an all-time great player and a dominant player in the post in an era of great post players.

This team has zero holes and fits well together.  I have all-time elite defense in the paint with 2 elite shot blockers with size and length and good perimeter defense.  I have scoring at all three levels (Lillard/Pierce deep, Wade/Dantley midrange, Kareem/Giannis/Haywood inside) and phenomenal rebounding across the board.

There is also tremendous versatility.  If I need more perimeter defense, DJ can start in place of Lillard.  I can go big by pulling Pierce for Haywood and put Giannis at the 3 or go small and let Giannis take the C with any of the 3 bench guys coming in for Kareem.  There isn't a team in this contest that I feel would be too tough to guard or too tough to score on for this squad.  When you have the greatest scorer of all-time with the most unstoppable shot in history, it makes that end of things a little easier.  Add Wade/Giannis attacking the basket and running the floor, Lillard/Pierce spotting up from deep, and Dantley taking his man one on one and this team will hunt and attack weak defenders for plenty of scoring.  The only weak defender on my squad would be Lillard and he can be covered by DJ when needed.

I don't know if I trust the judging after that Best In Show debacle, but this squad is very, very good.

Edited by Jayrod
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Pantheon

PG Jason Kidd

SG Ray Allen

SF Chris Mullin

PF Kevin Garnett

Shaquille O’Neal

Not going to write as much up for this as you’ve basically already seen this team in best in show. The big difference here is you now have Allen and Mullin flying all over the court splashing 3s, no one stuck in the corner that you can hide on.

Bench

Carmelo Anthony

Rudy Gobert

Bruce Bowen

Anthony (with an assist from Kev) gets the nod as the scorer off the bench, and if you’ve watched him in FIBA competitions you know how dangerous he can be as a catch and shoot player who doesn’t need to carry an offense. With the amount of stud bigs in this thing, 2x DPOY Gobert is a necessity to defend and protect the rim. And one of wikkid’s favorite players returns to provide some lockdown wing defense where needed, and nail corner 3s.

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1 hour ago, modogg said:

are we also factoring in to this judging how much better the athletes are now adays, as opposed to the 60s and 70s when sports science was way behind where it is today?

No

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Since I don’t have any pantheon rankings yet and since I won’t be able to get to any writeups and consolidation today, I’m going to extend the ranking timeline to tomorrow end of day. 

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  • Yo Mama changed the title to ***** ALL-TIME NBA/ABA DRAFT ***** (Pantheon voting due Tuesday)
46 minutes ago, Kev4029 said:

I don't think it's especially fair to look beyond this season as it is a bit of a crap shoot.

And with Embiid, taking a forward looking career trajectory is especially difficult. He's played a total of 247 of 539 games (or in the seasons he actually played - 247/375 @ 30MPG).

Embiid's stats are also being heavily impacted by shooting %s this year that are very likely unsustainable. He's shooting 58% from midrange this season - his career % otherwise is 39%. He's shooting 38% from 3 but otherwise is a career 32% shooter. He's shooting 48% on short jumpers (10-16') but is a career 40% shooter. His FT% is 86% but he is a career sub 80% shooter. He's in better shape this year, but that doesn't explain all of the increases.

Exactly. We shouldn’t be projecting anything here IMO, just what they’ve already done in their careers

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Team Gally Pantheon:

PG - Chris Paul:  elite defender, handles the pace and game.  Can create when needed and score when necessary.  Gets everyone involved.  

SG - Sam Jones:  pure shooter and although they didn't have 3's back then I have no doubt he can knock them down.  WInner and a HoF'er is a great compliment to Paul in backcourt

SF -  Scottie Pippen:  This is the elite defense guy that can shut down anybody.  He will handle the best offensive player on the opponent and harass him all night long.  He can run the court and score without dominating the ball.  Again a perfect fit for this squad

PF - Tim Duncan:  Arguably the best PF of all time.  15x FAll Defense Team (8 first teams and 7 second team)to go along with 15 All star games, 2 MVP, and 5 titles.  In his prime an elite defender that can handle any of the bigs he has to go against.  Also great in the team defensive scheme to help if needed.  Perfect fit to this squad.

C - Dwight Howard:  All he has to do is rebound, protect the rim, and crash the boards with his athleticism on the offensive end.  A few lobs from the organizer of Lob City now and then and the defense has to stay honest.  Howard and Duncan in the frontcourt can handle any teams out there.  

Bench:

PF/C -   Dolph Schayes:  I give him the slight nod over Dan Issel as I think Schayes was more dominant in his era and since he is a bench guy I am hoping the judges don't penalize him for being an old guy.  He was more current in his game play (go left or right, could shoot from long range as a big, an was a good passer/rebounder).  He was similar to modern big but played in the initial stages of the NBA.  

PG/SG - Dave Bing:  This HoF'er is a scorer and will be great coming off the bench for the 2nd unit.  He will keep defenses honest and can do it all.  A great bench guy for this Pantheon team.

SG/SF - Bob Dandridge:  This guy can do it all and is a nice compliment to this team.  Can fill in for Scottie to give a breather and take on the wings solidly.  Other possible options were Paul Pressey, Jeff Malone, and Doug Collins.  Going in I didn't know much about Dandridge but after doing some research this guy is really, really good not to mention a great fit for this squad

 

 

I think this is one of the best "teams" in this competition.  It is complimentary and has no holes  It has the best wing defender (Pippen) and exceptional front court defenders (Duncan & Howard).  It also has one of the best defenders at PG that has ever played.  This team will frustrate opponents and be extremely tough to score on while being able to do it all offensively.  

 

Criticize away! 

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5 minutes ago, Yo Mama said:

Exactly. We shouldn’t be projecting anything here IMO, just what they’ve already done in their careers

well let's pause rankings for a month or 2 and vote after Embiid crushes everyone in the playoffs and wins Finals MVP for the Sixers title :stirspot:

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54 minutes ago, wikkidpissah said:

you're both goofy. anyone who watches Embiid  and doesnt see Shaq with a shot better look again, and anyone who sweats Embiid and doesn't fear at least a half dozen ways he could check out on you ain't paying attention. the line on him simply hasnt been established. i'll take all bets (for charity, of course) against him winning multiple MVPs though.

really tempts me to change my pantheon team then and slide Bosh in at center, and take Embiid off the bench.

i'm sure too late to change, so i guess we will see how far MJ and the the best 6th man in the pantheon rankings can take the team

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Kevin's All-Time

PG -  Steve Nash - HOF, 2x MVP, 7x All-NBA, 8x AS. Revolutionized the NBA with the 7 seconds or less Suns. One of the greatest distributors, shooters, and the best pick and roll PG of all time to time behind Stockton. He’ll split time as an on-ball creator in the PnR and a deadly off-ball shooter. 30 MPG

SG - Jerry West - HOF, 12x All-NBA, 5x All-Defense, 14x AS, 1x Finals MVP. An amazing player in every sense with a game that would have translated well into the modern NBA due to his defense, shooting ability, and ball handling ability. 40 MPG

SF -Dave Debusschere - HOF, 1x All-NBA, 6x All-Defense, 8x AS. The best forward defender ever, up to his retirement in 1974. Bill Simmons swears he would have been the best 3-point shooting forward of the era, which would really unlock this offense. He’ll play elite defense against the best opposing forward, rebound the ball, and get easy looks on offense. 38 MPG

PF - Karl Malone - HOF, 2x MVP, 14x All-NBA, 4x All-Defense, 14x AS. The all-time prototype power forward (build, PnR, defense, rebounding, scoring) and the best pick and roll big of all time. All time ranks: #2 points, #8 rebounds,  #12 steals, #4 WS, and #4 VORP. We got him two great guys to play the pick and roll with - he’ll maintain his reputation as one of the elite scorers of all time. 38 MPG

C - Bill Walton -  HOF, 1x MVP, 2x All-NBA, 3x All-Defense, 2x AS, 1x Finals MVP. While he was healthy, he was the best rebounder in the league, the best defender in the league, and had an unrivaled skill set offensively from the high post. 32 MPG

BN1 - David Thompson (SG/SF) - HOF, 3x All-League, 5x All-Star. A hyper-athlete in the Michael Jordan mold that would absolutely dominate the game offensively like few before or since. An ideal 6th man in this setting. 30 MPG

BN2 - Nikola Jokic (C) - 2x All-NBA (soon to be 3), 3x AS, and MASSIVE favorite for 2021 MVP. The most well rounded offensive center of all time - he’ll slot in as strictly a backup C for this team and supercharge the offense for 15-18 MPG. 16 MPG

BN3 - Ron Artest/Metta World Peace/Metta Sandiford-Artest (SG-SF-PF) - 1x All-NBA, 4x All-Defense, 1x DPOY, 1x AS. The best perimeter defender of the 2000s and enough offense to make the rest of his game work here. 15 MPG

  • 5 MVPs (6 after this season)
  • 56 All-Star Games
  • 41 All-League (Each All-NBA other than 1 David Thompson All-ABA)
  • 21 All-Defense (Jerry West and Dave Debusschere would have a combined 14 more if the award existed prior to 68-69)
  • 6 Titles
  • 6 HOFers (Everybody but Jokic and MWP)

Everybody is going to have great teams here, so you need a few differentiators.

  • The pick and roll will always be the most effective way to reliably create efficient offense. There has never been a more effective PnR big in the NBA than Malone and he’ll get plenty of help from two of the most talented guards for the pick and roll in the history of the NBA in West and Nash.
  • Jerry West, Metta World Peace, and Dave Debusschere are three of the best dozen best non-center defenders of all time. Walton was the best defender in the NBA in his short healthy career. Malone was fantastic as well with 4 All-Defense nods. 
  • The passing is going to be nuts - Nash is one of the best passers of all time at any position, Jerry West is the best passing SG of all time (7 times finished in the top 6 in APG), Malone was fantastic (#3 all time big in assists behind Kareem and Garnett), and Jokic and Walton are the two best passing centers of all time. The ball movement will lead to some easy looks.
  • We have a lot of lineup flexibility - Need to go big and play D? We can make a simple sub of MWP (he played lots of SG early in his career) for Nash and we have a giant defensive lineup of West-MWP-Debusschere-Malone-Walton. Need a team full of offense and shooting? Sub Jokic and Thompson in for Debusschere and Walton and everybody can pass, shoot, and score.
  • Rebounding - Walton was the best rebounder in the league and is #3 all-time in DRB% at 30.2% (behind Drummond and Swen Nater) and top 10 in total REB%, Malone is #8 all time in rebounds, Debusschere averaged between 10.0 and 12.5 RPG in every season.
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4 hours ago, Jayrod said:

Jayrodsquad of All-Time

  • PG - Damian Lillard - 5x All-NBA, 6x All-star, ROY.  Starts the offense and spreads the floor, secondary P&R ball handler.  Dame was the best offensive player in the league last season 2019-20 (#1 in OWS & OBPM).  He is the most feared player at the end of the game in the league today.  He's done it long enough to carve out a starting role at this level and his shooting will space the floor for the rest of my All-time greats.  He is a known leader and ferocious competitor and has received MVP votes each of the last 3 seasons.
  • SG - Dwyane Wade - 8x All-NBA, 3x Champ, 1x Finals MVP, 1x Scoring Champ, 3x All-Def, 13x All-star.  Primary P&R ball handler, slasher, primary perimeter defender.  There is MJ, there is Kobe and then next is DWade.  An all-time elite scoring guard and arguably the best slasher in history.  Kobe said that guarding Wade on the P&R was the most difficult play to guard in the NBA because he "would just disappear".  He was also a phenomenal defensive player and could turn defense to offense as well as anyone.
  • SF - Paul Pierce - 4x All-NBA, 1x Champ, 1x Finals MVP, 10x All-star. 3rd offensive option, floor spreader, defender and rebounder. The Truth had an old man game from his days in college.  I think he gets incorrectly downgraded because he seemed to be moving in slow motion most of the time, but the advanced metrics don't lie...he was an all-time great NBA player and a good athlete.  He could score at all 3 levels, rebounded well and defended well.  He can't be left alone on offense and he can hold his own on defense and the boards.  Having Pierce as a 3rd option on this offense is an embarrassment of riches.
  • PF - Giannis Antetokounmpo - 2x MVP, 1x DPOY, 4x All-NBA, 3x All-Def. Defensive stopper, P&R screener, rebounder.  I have the freakiest athlete since Shaq and he doesn't even have to worry about being the primary scorer on this team.  Imagine Giannis just being free to roam.  Flash to the high post, pick and roll or pick and pop, run the floor on the break, wreak havoc on defense.  All of that energy, length and strength free to just find gaps and attack would be terrifying for a defense to stop.
  • C - Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - HOF, 6x MVP, 6x Champ, 2x Finals MVP, 15x All-NBa, 11x All-Def, 19x All-star.  Post scorer, rebounder and rim protector.  The greatest center of all time.  All-time scoring champ.  Would have won multiple DPOY awards if it existed during his prime.  Owns the 2 greatest WS/48 seasons in history.  Wikkid resents him for coasting through several seasons, but he couldn't control his environment like LeBron has been able to and at least he didn't just outright quit playing like Jordan.  More MVP's than anyone ever.  At 7'2", His skyhook is the single most unguardable play in the history of the game.
  • BENCH PG/SG - Dennis Johnson - HOF, 3x Champ, 1x Finals MVP, 2x All-NBA, 9x All-Def, 5x All-star.  Defensive stopper and distributor off the bench.  He led the Sonics to their only championship in 1979.  He shut down Magic in 1984 finals to win the title.  Bird called him his greatest teammate and Magic said he was the toughest backcourt defender of all time.  If the matchup warrants it, I could start DJ over Lillard.
  • BENCH SF - Adrian Dantley - HOF, 2x Scoring Champ, 2x All-NBA, 6x All-star, ROY. Bench scorer.  Dude was a walking bucket in the 80's.  He lived in the midrange and shot 54% for his career and averaged 8.7 FT's per game.  His headfakes, pumpfakes and footwork were impeccable and nearly impossible to guard.  I don't need him to do anything on this squad but come in and get points off the bench, which he will do with aplomb.
  • BENCH PF - Spencer Haywood - HOF, 1x Champ, 1x ABA MVP, 4x All-NBA, 5x All-star. Bench post rebounder and defender. Haywood spent 1 year in the ABA and so utterly dominated, he is considered one of that league's best of all-time.  He then wasted a year fighting the NBA in court.  Once he got into the league, he won 4 straight All-NBA and All-Star awards, getting MVP votes and averaging 25.4 ppg and 12.1 rpg over those seasons.  After that, his career was derailed by drugs, but for about 6 years he was an all-time great player and a dominant player in the post in an era of great post players.

This team has zero holes and fits well together.  I have all-time elite defense in the paint with 2 elite shot blockers with size and length and good perimeter defense.  I have scoring at all three levels (Lillard/Pierce deep, Wade/Dantley midrange, Kareem/Giannis/Haywood inside) and phenomenal rebounding across the board.

There is also tremendous versatility.  If I need more perimeter defense, DJ can start in place of Lillard.  I can go big by pulling Pierce for Haywood and put Giannis at the 3 or go small and let Giannis take the C with any of the 3 bench guys coming in for Kareem.  There isn't a team in this contest that I feel would be too tough to guard or too tough to score on for this squad.  When you have the greatest scorer of all-time with the most unstoppable shot in history, it makes that end of things a little easier.  Add Wade/Giannis attacking the basket and running the floor, Lillard/Pierce spotting up from deep, and Dantley taking his man one on one and this team will hunt and attack weak defenders for plenty of scoring.  The only weak defender on my squad would be Lillard and he can be covered by DJ when needed.

I don't know if I trust the judging after that Best In Show debacle, but this squad is very, very good.

I forgot to give my cumulative numbers for the group:

  • 14 championships (5/8 players)
  • 4 Hall of Famers (other 4 aren't yet eligible, 2 are locks and other 2 likely)
  • 44 All-NBA teams (all 8 players)
  • 5 Finals MVP's (4/8 players)
  • 1 DPOY (but Kareem would have had a couple if it existed in his prime)
  • 26 All-Defensive teams (4/8 players)
  • 5 scoring titles (3/8 players)
  • 69 All-star awards (all 8 players)
  • 4 Rookies of the Year

#1, #19, #34 & #35 on the all-time career scoring lists and 2 active guys that will likely finish in the top 50 before they retire.

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I hadn't heard this, but Lillard was 1.2% from the FT line away from joining the 50/40/90 club last season.  He shot over 90% each of the two seasons prior and is at 92.5% so far this year.  He needed to make 6 more of his 518 FT's to get it (made 460).

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4 hours ago, Yo Mama said:

Since I don’t have any pantheon rankings yet and since I won’t be able to get to any writeups and consolidation today, I’m going to extend the ranking timeline to tomorrow end of day. 

I will be cracking a beer and working on those in a few minutes

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I wanted to give another chance for others to weigh in on my team, as well as to offer add'l details & differentiate between my/other teams. My question from my post was:   please let me know of any weakness – in which area is this team not dominant? I wanna hear it.

With reference to my team's individual career rankings....

- All teams have titans but none moreso than my team in terms of both offense & defense.

- One could say that, from a pure stat-perspective, a well-balanced team would like to have at least one of the top-16 (or 32, or 48) at each major stat. <-- this may be the wrong way to look at it but is one way in which one could look at it  With that in mind....

- My starters have the following ranks in total points:    8, 12, 24, 27, 42

- My team includes the following ranks in total rebounds:    5, 6, 21, 35

-  My team includes the following ranks in assists:    13, 14

-  My team includes the following ranks in steals:  5, 8, 31, 38, 49

-  My team includes the following ranks in blocked shots:  2, 4, 23, 28

-  My team includes the following ranks in 3's made:  3, 32

The first stat I listed above (total points rankings) may lead some to wonder how this team would fare together. As mentioned in my original post,    Not all will be called upon to lead in scoring (I'm looking at you, Artis & Russ); but they'll all be there when necessary.

When my top-3 scoring starters (#'s 8, 12 and 24) each play complimentary positions (SF, PF and SG) and styles....good luck defending that. And if/when the # 27/42 scorers get the green light in prime spots (balanced, and when necessary), the team will score in droves from every conceivable position -- I don't believe there's any team that can totally defend that.

While Russ doesn't necessarily need the P&R to start an offensive set, his driving will lead to different options regarding the roller, a streaking Dr J, or a 3 from Reggie (spacing won't be an issue here).

Once the starters get a double-digit lead (inevitable) is when the pressure really comes on. One rotation (of many) will feature the #5 and #8 in steals (Dr J and Cheeks, in for Russ) and #2 and #4 in blocks (Artis and Dikembe, in for Big E).

There is no speculation as to how these players will execute (they've already done it), and there is no injury question mark (they've each thrived for decades). <-- can the same be said of other teams on both offense & defense?

Again, please let me know of any weakness – in which area is this team not dominant? I wanna hear it.

Edited by higgins
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30 minutes ago, higgins said:

I wanted to give another chance for others to weigh in on my team, as well as to offer add'l details & differentiate between my/other teams. My question from my post was:   please let me know of any weakness – in which area is this team not dominant? I wanna hear it.

There is no speculation as to how these players will execute (they've already done it), and there is no injury question mark (they've each thrived for decades). <-- can the same be said of other teams on both offense & defense?

Again, please let me know of any weakness – in which area is this team not dominant? I wanna hear it.

I'll bite:

Great, you have awesome shot blocking. I think the rest of the defense ranges from piss-poor (Westbrook) to pretty good. Steals does not a good wing make, though it can be a helpful indicator. Westbrook in particular is an example of a guy who does well in steals (and blocks somewhat) but to my knowledge always has been and remains regarded as a bad defender. Reggie Miller never scared anyone on defense, and Dr. J, admittedly, made one all-defense team in the no-defense ABA. 

Every game will be an interesting balance between your two rim defenders getting in foul trouble from the turnstyle on the wings in the starting group and the inability of Cheeks and Jones to create any offense of their own when they get in there.

Also, on the topic of "not dominant" the post scoring (or lack thereof) on your squad scares nobody. I love Artis, and Hayes is good... but Dikembe's not a scorer and the rest of your squad is pretty small. Compare that to teams with Kareem, Wilt, Jokic, McHale, Dirk, and the like...and you're going to have some dogfights.

Take into that the ability of some of these more modern guys (hello there Dirk!) being able to play outside, and suddenly having Dikembe and Artis at the basket looks more like 2-time DPOY Rudy Gobert getting annihilated by Houston pulling him with five out every year and then just wrecking the guards who are either too small (Cheeks) for some of the legends, or just plain bad on D (Westbrook), to be stretched out and attacked relentlessly. 

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I'm obviously going a little over the top here (ok a lot over the top) but I took the tone of your post as one that would appreciate a little sports-bar-style fun in here. Hope I read that tone correctly :)

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1 hour ago, Instinctive said:

I'm obviously going a little over the top here (ok a lot over the top) but I took the tone of your post as one that would appreciate a little sports-bar-style fun in here. Hope I read that tone correctly :)

I asked & you delivered. :hifive:

I get that you were over the top -- no prob, but re: your critique:

- Yes, Reggie Miller isn't going to scare anyone on defense (which is why I needed someone like Eddie).

- Yes, stretch 5's will be tricky to defend.

- Russ being a defensive liability is flat wrong -- following is how he's ranked in steals for each individual year(not in chronological order): 2, 3, 4, 4, 5, 5, 8, 8, 14, 17. He may be re-known for offense/triple doubles but is still very strong defensively.

- Perhaps the word "dominant" isn't the appropriate word when facing other "titans" in the middle but my interior will be uber-strong offensively/defensively. And it's not just the blocks (as you point out) -- it's also starting the #5 / #6 career rebounders. Offensively, Artis' baby-hooks, finger rolls/dunks led to him being the #27 scorer & Elvin's turn-around jumper led to him being the #12 -- that may not "scare anyone" (as you point out) in this playoff of titans but they will be far more effective in putting up points as a unit than most other teams.

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2 hours ago, higgins said:

Again, please let me know of any weakness – in which area is this team not dominant? I wanna hear it.

Your PG is a raging ball hog who has never won anything

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Frosty's Pantheon Team:

PG: Bob Cousy. HOF. MVP. 12x ALL-NBA. 13x ALL-STAR. 6x NBA CHAMP. 8x Assist Leader. 20th all-time in assists. 12th all-time in triple doubles. Top 100 in scoring. 19.8ppg/5.7rpg/7.9apg

SG: Pete Maravich. HOF. 4x ALL-NBA. 5x ALL-STAR. 1x Scoring Leader. 20th all-time in PPG. Top 100 in APG. 25.2ppg/4.5rpg/5.7apg/1.5spg

SF: Lebron James. 4x MVP. 16x ALL-NBA. 17x ALL-STAR. 4x NBA CHAMP. 4x FINALS MVP. 6x ALL DEFENSE. 1x scoring leader. 1x assist leader. 3rd all-time in scoring. Top 50 all-time in rebounds. 8th all-time in assists. 14th all-time in steals. 27.5ppg/7.6rpg/7.5apg/1.6spg.

PF: Willis Reed. HOF. 1x MVP. 5x ALL-NBA. 7x ALL-STAR. 1x ALL DEFENSE. 2x NBA CHAMP. 2x FINALS MVP. 13th all-time in RPG. Top 100 in career points and rebounds. 21.1ppg/14.0rpg/2.0spg. 

C - Alonzo Mourning. HOF. 2x ALL NBA. 7x ALL-STAR. 2x DEF POY. 2x ALL DEFENSE. 1x CHAMP. 2x Block leader. 12th all-time in blocks. Top 100 in offensive and defensive rebounds. 21.ppg/10.1rpg/3.1bpg

BENCH:

G - Bill Sharman. HOF. 7x ALL NBA. 8x ALL STAR. 4x NBA CHAMP. 21.5ppg/4.4rpg/3.4apg

F - Shawn Kemp. 3x ALL NBA. 6x ALL-STAR. 63rd all-time in rebounds. Top 100 all-time in steals and blocks. Tops all-time in monster dunks right in your stupid face. 18.3ppg/10.4rpg/2.1apg/1.4spg/1.5bpg. 

F- Glen Rice. 2x ALL NBA. 3x ALL-STAR. 1x NBA CHAMP. 38th all-time in 3pt %. 33rd all-time in made 3s. Top 5 shooter of all-time. 22.2ppg/4.8rpg/2.3apg/1.1spg

 

I mean, whoa. I am sure your jaws are all on the floor after looking at that and several of you have jumped out of windows in shame rather than deal with this team. I mean, 5 Hall-of-Famers. 6 MVPs. 58 All-NBAs. 69 (nice) ALL-STARS. 18 Championships. 6 Finals MVPs. 9 all-defensive berths. Entire team averages at least 18.3ppg. 3-double digit per game rebounders. 3 guys averaging at least 5.5 assists per game. 7 guys who averaged at least 1 steal or block per game. 

The other thing about these guys: no doubts, no projections, no "well maybe"s. These guys have completed their careers (except Lebron) and you know exactly who they are, and they are outstanding. All eight of these guys can do a little bit of everything, and do it well. Glen Rice is probably the closest thing I have to a non-complete player, and he averaged over a steal per game and made 2 all-nba teams, so I think he's ok. 

Another thing, I could make the argument that I have the best player from the 50s, 60s, 00s, and 10s. This team is a monster. Perfectly balanced, perfectly coordinated, and they fit together perfect. We can play big, we can play small, we can play fast, we can play a half-court game, we can shoot, we can drive, we can pass. This is probably the best assembling of talent the world has ever seen, and they fit together seamlessly. 

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9 minutes ago, Frostillicus said:

Frosty's Pantheon Team:

PG: Bob Cousy. HOF. MVP. 12x ALL-NBA. 13x ALL-STAR. 6x NBA CHAMP. 8x Assist Leader. 20th all-time in assists. 12th all-time in triple doubles. Top 100 in scoring. 19.8ppg/5.7rpg/7.9apg

SG: Pete Maravich. HOF. 4x ALL-NBA. 5x ALL-STAR. 1x Scoring Leader. 20th all-time in PPG. Top 100 in APG. 25.2ppg/4.5rpg/5.7apg/1.5spg

SF: Lebron James. 4x MVP. 16x ALL-NBA. 17x ALL-STAR. 4x NBA CHAMP. 4x FINALS MVP. 6x ALL DEFENSE. 1x scoring leader. 1x assist leader. 3rd all-time in scoring. Top 50 all-time in rebounds. 8th all-time in assists. 14th all-time in steals. 27.5ppg/7.6rpg/7.5apg/1.6spg.

PF: Willis Reed. HOF. 1x MVP. 5x ALL-NBA. 7x ALL-STAR. 1x ALL DEFENSE. 2x NBA CHAMP. 2x FINALS MVP. 13th all-time in RPG. Top 100 in career points and rebounds. 21.1ppg/14.0rpg/2.0spg. 

C - Alonzo Mourning. HOF. 2x ALL NBA. 7x ALL-STAR. 2x DEF POY. 2x ALL DEFENSE. 1x CHAMP. 2x Block leader. 12th all-time in blocks. Top 100 in offensive and defensive rebounds. 21.ppg/10.1rpg/3.1bpg

BENCH:

G - Bill Sharman. HOF. 7x ALL NBA. 8x ALL STAR. 4x NBA CHAMP. 21.5ppg/4.4rpg/3.4apg

F - Shawn Kemp. 3x ALL NBA. 6x ALL-STAR. 63rd all-time in rebounds. Top 100 all-time in steals and blocks. Tops all-time in monster dunks right in your stupid face. 18.3ppg/10.4rpg/2.1apg/1.4spg/1.5bpg. 

F- Glen Rice. 2x ALL NBA. 3x ALL-STAR. 1x NBA CHAMP. 38th all-time in 3pt %. 33rd all-time in made 3s. Top 5 shooter of all-time. 22.2ppg/4.8rpg/2.3apg/1.1spg

 

I mean, whoa. I am sure your jaws are all on the floor after looking at that and several of you have jumped out of windows in shame rather than deal with this team. I mean, 5 Hall-of-Famers. 6 MVPs. 58 All-NBAs. 69 (nice) ALL-STARS. 18 Championships. 6 Finals MVPs. 9 all-defensive berths. Entire team averages at least 18.3ppg. 3-double digit per game rebounders. 3 guys averaging at least 5.5 assists per game. 7 guys who averaged at least 1 steal or block per game. 

The other thing about these guys: no doubts, no projections, no "well maybe"s. These guys have completed their careers (except Lebron) and you know exactly who they are, and they are outstanding. All eight of these guys can do a little bit of everything, and do it well. Glen Rice is probably the closest thing I have to a non-complete player, and he averaged over a steal per game and made 2 all-nba teams, so I think he's ok. 

Another thing, I could make the argument that I have the best player from the 50s, 60s, 00s, and 10s. This team is a monster. Perfectly balanced, perfectly coordinated, and they fit together perfect. We can play big, we can play small, we can play fast, we can play a half-court game, we can shoot, we can drive, we can pass. This is probably the best assembling of talent the world has ever seen, and they fit together seamlessly. 

B-

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22 minutes ago, Ilov80s said:

Your PG is a raging ball hog who has never won anything

I started to address this because I knew it would come up....

On 4/16/2021 at 11:08 PM, higgins said:

Let’s start with the obvious:          if you think Westbrook will be too toxic/selfish, think again. After Cheeks briefly replaces him, Artis/Elvin will give Russ a menacing glare with Dikembe behind them wagging his finger. Another thing:  in 8-yrs playing with KD.... Russ only led the Thunder in scoring once.

On a serious note:

- You are correct in that he's never won anything....but....

 - Russ did play second fiddle to KD 7/8 years -- considering he was distributing the ball, doesn't appear too selfish.

 - Other than 3 anomalous years (out-of-12), he's been top-5 in assists every year -- not very ball-hog-ish.

Look, I get that there is this perception (which is why I approached the subject from the beginning). But I also wonder whether Oscar Robertson also had this perception -- the "new Oscar" of triple doubles doesn't seem to be able to shake it regardless of the fact that he's led the league in assists thrice (also came in 2nd two-yrs). It is.... what it is.... rightfully or wrongfully.

The bottom line for me is that (1) he's great at distributing the ball, (2) has been the league MVP, (3) ranks 2nd in career triple doubles, his 171 to Oscar's 181 (Magic is third at 138) <-- think about that considering he'll pass Oscar, and dwarf Magic in a useless-yet-telling stat

I'd go on about his all-league this-and-that but I prefer the hard numbers.

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swcs pantheon team 

pg is steph curry he is the best shooter ever and you cannot leave him open also a shifty little muchacho who is a great passer and a great hugger 

guard two is the big o none other than oscar the grouch robertson he is the triple double king and what in the heck are you going to do between him and curry lose thats what also known for his mastery of connect four 

forward michael air jordan he was pretty good at the old bball and had a song about him 

other forward lebron the kid from akron  james people also think he is good at basketball and he is known for his love of opera 

center is anteaternintendo he isnt a center all the time but when he does he benches god

key reserve is god thats right the big kahuna from upstairs many people call him many things but they all now hes a baller but on this roster he comes off the bench you think your team has a chance guess agin not even god can crack this lineup and he is a 100 100 100 player thats almost as good as embid 

key reserve number two is bill murray he is the locker room glue guy and hits the big shot when it counts you want to talk mvps and all nbas try this one on for size he saved earth bam bill fn murray 

key reserve numero tres is randy breuer the guy from lake city mn was a complete waste of a draft pick by milwaukee but now he gets his revenge having been raised up to sit on the right wing of god when the second unit rolls in breuer cant be stopped because god wills it so

so there you have it team swc take that to the bank brohans  

Edited by SWC
ps i welcome your empty attempts to dismiss this squad
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32 minutes ago, Frostillicus said:

Frosty's Pantheon Team:

PG: Bob Cousy. HOF. MVP. 12x ALL-NBA. 13x ALL-STAR. 6x NBA CHAMP. 8x Assist Leader. 20th all-time in assists. 12th all-time in triple doubles. Top 100 in scoring. 19.8ppg/5.7rpg/7.9apg

SG: Pete Maravich. HOF. 4x ALL-NBA. 5x ALL-STAR. 1x Scoring Leader. 20th all-time in PPG. Top 100 in APG. 25.2ppg/4.5rpg/5.7apg/1.5spg

SF: Lebron James. 4x MVP. 16x ALL-NBA. 17x ALL-STAR. 4x NBA CHAMP. 4x FINALS MVP. 6x ALL DEFENSE. 1x scoring leader. 1x assist leader. 3rd all-time in scoring. Top 50 all-time in rebounds. 8th all-time in assists. 14th all-time in steals. 27.5ppg/7.6rpg/7.5apg/1.6spg.

PF: Willis Reed. HOF. 1x MVP. 5x ALL-NBA. 7x ALL-STAR. 1x ALL DEFENSE. 2x NBA CHAMP. 2x FINALS MVP. 13th all-time in RPG. Top 100 in career points and rebounds. 21.1ppg/14.0rpg/2.0spg. 

C - Alonzo Mourning. HOF. 2x ALL NBA. 7x ALL-STAR. 2x DEF POY. 2x ALL DEFENSE. 1x CHAMP. 2x Block leader. 12th all-time in blocks. Top 100 in offensive and defensive rebounds. 21.ppg/10.1rpg/3.1bpg

BENCH:

G - Bill Sharman. HOF. 7x ALL NBA. 8x ALL STAR. 4x NBA CHAMP. 21.5ppg/4.4rpg/3.4apg

F - Shawn Kemp. 3x ALL NBA. 6x ALL-STAR. 63rd all-time in rebounds. Top 100 all-time in steals and blocks. Tops all-time in monster dunks right in your stupid face. 18.3ppg/10.4rpg/2.1apg/1.4spg/1.5bpg. 

F- Glen Rice. 2x ALL NBA. 3x ALL-STAR. 1x NBA CHAMP. 38th all-time in 3pt %. 33rd all-time in made 3s. Top 5 shooter of all-time. 22.2ppg/4.8rpg/2.3apg/1.1spg

 

 

Your backcourt is a mess. 2 flashy ball hogs.  Lets call it Lebron a Hall of Famer. That is 6/8. Pretty good but I've 7/8 with my one miss still active and with a 50/50 shot at the HOF now according to Basketball Ref. It could be an 8/8 squad I have. 

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5 hours ago, higgins said:

I wanted to give another chance for others to weigh in on my team, as well as to offer add'l details & differentiate between my/other teams. My question from my post was:   please let me know of any weakness – in which area is this team not dominant? I wanna hear it.

With reference to my team's individual career rankings....

- All teams have titans but none moreso than my team in terms of both offense & defense.

- One could say that, from a pure stat-perspective, a well-balanced team would like to have at least one of the top-16 (or 32, or 48) at each major stat. <-- this may be the wrong way to look at it but is one way in which one could look at it  With that in mind....

- My starters have the following ranks in total points:    8, 12, 24, 27, 42

- My team includes the following ranks in total rebounds:    5, 6, 21, 35

-  My team includes the following ranks in assists:    13, 14

-  My team includes the following ranks in steals:  5, 8, 31, 38, 49

-  My team includes the following ranks in blocked shots:  2, 4, 23, 28

-  My team includes the following ranks in 3's made:  3, 32

The first stat I listed above (total points rankings) may lead some to wonder how this team would fare together. As mentioned in my original post,    Not all will be called upon to lead in scoring (I'm looking at you, Artis & Russ); but they'll all be there when necessary.

When my top-3 scoring starters (#'s 8, 12 and 24) each play complimentary positions (SF, PF and SG) and styles....good luck defending that. And if/when the # 27/42 scorers get the green light in prime spots (balanced, and when necessary), the team will score in droves from every conceivable position -- I don't believe there's any team that can totally defend that.

While Russ doesn't necessarily need the P&R to start an offensive set, his driving will lead to different options regarding the roller, a streaking Dr J, or a 3 from Reggie (spacing won't be an issue here).

Once the starters get a double-digit lead (inevitable) is when the pressure really comes on. One rotation (of many) will feature the #5 and #8 in steals (Dr J and Cheeks, in for Russ) and #2 and #4 in blocks (Artis and Dikembe, in for Big E).

There is no speculation as to how these players will execute (they've already done it), and there is no injury question mark (they've each thrived for decades). <-- can the same be said of other teams on both offense & defense?

Again, please let me know of any weakness – in which area is this team not dominant? I wanna hear it.

Your perimeter defense is subpar and you have the worst championship pedigree of all 16 teams.

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16 minutes ago, Jayrod said:

Your perimeter defense is subpar and you have the worst championship pedigree of all 16 teams.

You're bringing up one metric that I truly care nothing about. Zero....zilch. If that comes back to bite me....so be it.

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7 minutes ago, higgins said:

You're bringing up one metric that I truly care nothing about. Zero....zilch. If that comes back to bite me....so be it.

Obviously winning is unimportant in basketball. Not worth considering really.

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3 hours ago, higgins said:

I asked & you delivered. :hifive:

- Russ being a defensive liability is flat wrong -- following is how he's ranked in steals for each individual year(not in chronological order): 2, 3, 4, 4, 5, 5, 8, 8, 14, 17. He may be re-known for offense/triple doubles but is still very strong defensively.

No, it isn't. It's accurate. It's an opinion held by some of the smartest basketball minds I have met, all of whom I agree with. Steals don't make a good defender. Sometimes good defenders rack up steals (see, e.g., Kawhi Klaw Leonard). But dramatically more important is how you get them. Westbrook is a gambler. Almost none of hi ssteals are from positional defense or on ball defense. Most of them are reverse transition or on cross court swings - they're gambles. For every steal Westbrook has, there's like 3 free buckets he's given to the opposing team because a guy ball faked him or he was a step too fast or slow on his gamble and he didn't get the ball and the other team was suddenly up a man with Westbrook out of the play.

 

He's an amazing athlete that lends well to quite a few highlights, but his team defense sucks. These are among the many reasons why he has never made an all-defensive team, and why half his career marks are negative Def BPM. We used to literally use him in the scouting report as the type of defender representative of easy to fake out or back cut on. "He's a Westbrook" was our code. (For those who wonder, we called guys who wanted to take a charge every time "Lowrys", guards who couldn't shoot "Rondo's", and big men who could shoot "Dirk's", among a few others). 

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1 minute ago, Instinctive said:

Obviously winning is unimportant in basketball. Not worth considering really.

:D On a make-believe team where how players "gel" is all speculation, I simply decided to focus on drafting a team as well balanced in stats (facts) that I could. As long as (1) the supposed logic in their play (i.e. spacing between a driving PG, slashing Dr J, & outside-the-arc-Reggie Miller) -and- (2) talent (again, numbers don't lie) are top-shelf....I have zero problem with the end result, let alone bickering over how other people believe they'll jibe as a team. I don't believe Tony Parker has more credibility than Stockton because of his hardware. The same can be said for Worthy vs. Cliff Robinson -or- Horace Grant vs. Dale Davis. :shrug:

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1 hour ago, Ilov80s said:

Your backcourt is a mess. 2 flashy ball hogs.  Lets call it Lebron a Hall of Famer. That is 6/8. Pretty good but I've 7/8 with my one miss still active and with a 50/50 shot at the HOF now according to Basketball Ref. It could be an 8/8 squad I have. 

Yes, the 8 time league assist leader is a ballhog. Great call. Your basketball intellect is truly dizzying. 

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  • Yo Mama changed the title to ***** ALL-TIME NBA/ABA DRAFT ***** (Scoobus is Champion!)

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