scoobus
Footballguy
Hooray!!Voting is complete:
Scoobus is Best in Show Cup champion!!!
He wins 17-1 over Higgins.
Hooray!!Voting is complete:
Scoobus is Best in Show Cup champion!!!
He wins 17-1 over Higgins.
That’s the spirit!i am thrilled beyond repair for the chance to skim the efforts of others, throw together some revisionist ramble and pick nits with my innerweb pals til it gets personal
When I did my objective scoring system your team won by an absolute landslide. The difference between your team and team #2 was the same difference as team #2 and team #13. If anything, maybe you put too much investment into this decade.Hooray!!
You're ####### insane. First off, he isn't close to 50-40-90. He's a career 33% 3pt shooter and 80% from the line. In this, his best shooting year ever, he's 37% from three and 85.5% from the line. Not close.I'm going to guess this will come down to how Embiid is viewed by most in here. Guy has seperated himself into the top 5 centers of all time already. if we did this in 10 years and took Embiid's entire career, guy would be a 1st round pick
Embiid is better than most of the big guys in this pantheon discussion because he is a more efficient and effective scorer. he is basically a 50-40-90 guy. being able to score at all 3 levels, and hitting close to 90% of his FTs
could not disagree more. Look through all of those centers and tell me who drew similar amount of fouls, took shots from the 3 line, and hit over 80% (with ease) from the FT line.You're ####### insane. First off, he isn't close to 50-40-90. He's a career 33% 3pt shooter and 80% from the line. In this, his best shooting year ever, he's 37% from three and 85.5% from the line. Not close.
Second of all...Russell, Kareem, Reed, Hakeem, Robinson, Shaq, Cowens, Moses, Walton is just the beginning of the list of guys who play Center and also have actually won an MVP. Add in Howard, Thurmond, Wallace, Gilmore, Ewing, Mikan, Bellamy off the top of my head as obviously ahead of him still.
This doesn't even consider guys widely considered PFs who are Centers, like Duncan, AD, and Giannis. It doesn't consider guys who played the position more than 40 games a year and actually won stuff like Dikembe, Mourning, Daugherty...or guys who were just as good or better but haven't won stuff, like Demarcus Cousins...
If you think your pantheon team is going to come down to how Embiid is viewed AND you see him as a top 5 center of all time, you're going to find out that you're delusional.
All-NBA, All-Star and MVP are all kind of a joke, no? people are still suggesting Lebron this year for the MVP, and the guy hasn't played for most of the season.Embiid hasn't ever been all-NBA first team & yet he "has seperated himself into the top 5 centers of all time already".
Oookay
Oh for sure, wasn’t really the plan at all, just kind of worked out that way. I drafted Shaq(90s) when he fell in the first round. I then took KG(00s) over Durant(10s) and Curry(10s) solely because I was trying to avoid the most current guys at the top of the draft. Coming back I was hoping for Kawhi(10s) but figured it was unlikely, so then I targeted a PG. I had I Thomas(80s) and Paul(10s) ahead of Kidd(00s) and Nash(00s), but both were both correctly picked before it got to me. After Kidd, with lineup I had going so far, I wanted one of the knockdown shooters of R Miller(90s), R Allen(00s), or Klay(10s), and wouldn’t you know it both Reggie and Klay went before me, leaving only Allen.When I did my objective scoring system your team won by an absolute landslide. The difference between your team and team #2 was the same difference as team #2 and team #13. If anything, maybe you put too much investment into this decade.
Everyone is doing this differently, but I absolutely am not factoring that in. I'm doing my best to think through A) what would this guy have been like back then without all these benefits and B) what would that guy be like today WITH all these benefits? One key element of that is how they distanced themselves from their peers, just the value in things like MVP, DPOY, All-NBA, etc.are we also factoring in to this judging how much better the athletes are now adays, as opposed to the 60s and 70s when sports science was way behind where it is today?
Of course actual play matters. That's why people who know more about it than you do vote on it and have for 60+ years.All-NBA, All-Star and MVP are all kind of a joke, no? people are still suggesting Lebron this year for the MVP, and the guy hasn't played for most of the season.
if we are basing judging off of these media driven rewards, then fine, my team will probably not soar as high. but if it is based on actual play on the court, it should be weighed in.
I, and at least a couple others, are on the record as explicitly not considering career forward trajectory. We've even discussed doing a forward looking draft.if we are looking at guys at their career trajectory, there is no reason to not think embiid can continue at his current pace for the next 3 years. he has been on the upward trajectory every year, and is playing without issues with his foot or back now. if we look at players and factor in injury related concerns, Embiid should be considered similarly with his shorter career and his current trajectory up.
I don't think it's especially fair to look beyond this season as it is a bit of a crap shoot.I, and at least a couple others, are on the record as explicitly not considering career forward trajectory. We've even discussed doing a forward looking draft.
No (but the judging results appear to indicate otherwise). As the drafter with all-timers like Mikan at the 5 and Iceman at the 2...I certainly hope not.are we also factoring in to this judging how much better the athletes are now adays, as opposed to the 60s and 70s
Same here. Embiid seems like a poor bet to stay healthy long enough to put up numbers for a decade. I hope so though, because he is so damn skilled for a 5.i'll take all bets (for charity, of course) against him winning multiple MVPs though.
Noare we also factoring in to this judging how much better the athletes are now adays, as opposed to the 60s and 70s when sports science was way behind where it is today?
Exactly. We shouldn’t be projecting anything here IMO, just what they’ve already done in their careersI don't think it's especially fair to look beyond this season as it is a bit of a crap shoot.
And with Embiid, taking a forward looking career trajectory is especially difficult. He's played a total of 247 of 539 games (or in the seasons he actually played - 247/375 @ 30MPG).
Embiid's stats are also being heavily impacted by shooting %s this year that are very likely unsustainable. He's shooting 58% from midrange this season - his career % otherwise is 39%. He's shooting 38% from 3 but otherwise is a career 32% shooter. He's shooting 48% on short jumpers (10-16') but is a career 40% shooter. His FT% is 86% but he is a career sub 80% shooter. He's in better shape this year, but that doesn't explain all of the increases.
well let's pause rankings for a month or 2 and vote after Embiid crushes everyone in the playoffs and wins Finals MVP for the Sixers titleExactly. We shouldn’t be projecting anything here IMO, just what they’ve already done in their careers
really tempts me to change my pantheon team then and slide Bosh in at center, and take Embiid off the bench.you're both goofy. anyone who watches Embiid and doesnt see Shaq with a shot better look again, and anyone who sweats Embiid and doesn't fear at least a half dozen ways he could check out on you ain't paying attention. the line on him simply hasnt been established. i'll take all bets (for charity, of course) against him winning multiple MVPs though.
I forgot to give my cumulative numbers for the group:Jayrodsquad of All-Time
This team has zero holes and fits well together. I have all-time elite defense in the paint with 2 elite shot blockers with size and length and good perimeter defense. I have scoring at all three levels (Lillard/Pierce deep, Wade/Dantley midrange, Kareem/Giannis/Haywood inside) and phenomenal rebounding across the board.
- PG - Damian Lillard - 5x All-NBA, 6x All-star, ROY. Starts the offense and spreads the floor, secondary P&R ball handler. Dame was the best offensive player in the league last season 2019-20 (#1 in OWS & OBPM). He is the most feared player at the end of the game in the league today. He's done it long enough to carve out a starting role at this level and his shooting will space the floor for the rest of my All-time greats. He is a known leader and ferocious competitor and has received MVP votes each of the last 3 seasons.
- SG - Dwyane Wade - 8x All-NBA, 3x Champ, 1x Finals MVP, 1x Scoring Champ, 3x All-Def, 13x All-star. Primary P&R ball handler, slasher, primary perimeter defender. There is MJ, there is Kobe and then next is DWade. An all-time elite scoring guard and arguably the best slasher in history. Kobe said that guarding Wade on the P&R was the most difficult play to guard in the NBA because he "would just disappear". He was also a phenomenal defensive player and could turn defense to offense as well as anyone.
- SF - Paul Pierce - 4x All-NBA, 1x Champ, 1x Finals MVP, 10x All-star. 3rd offensive option, floor spreader, defender and rebounder. The Truth had an old man game from his days in college. I think he gets incorrectly downgraded because he seemed to be moving in slow motion most of the time, but the advanced metrics don't lie...he was an all-time great NBA player and a good athlete. He could score at all 3 levels, rebounded well and defended well. He can't be left alone on offense and he can hold his own on defense and the boards. Having Pierce as a 3rd option on this offense is an embarrassment of riches.
- PF - Giannis Antetokounmpo - 2x MVP, 1x DPOY, 4x All-NBA, 3x All-Def. Defensive stopper, P&R screener, rebounder. I have the freakiest athlete since Shaq and he doesn't even have to worry about being the primary scorer on this team. Imagine Giannis just being free to roam. Flash to the high post, pick and roll or pick and pop, run the floor on the break, wreak havoc on defense. All of that energy, length and strength free to just find gaps and attack would be terrifying for a defense to stop.
- C - Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - HOF, 6x MVP, 6x Champ, 2x Finals MVP, 15x All-NBa, 11x All-Def, 19x All-star. Post scorer, rebounder and rim protector. The greatest center of all time. All-time scoring champ. Would have won multiple DPOY awards if it existed during his prime. Owns the 2 greatest WS/48 seasons in history. Wikkid resents him for coasting through several seasons, but he couldn't control his environment like LeBron has been able to and at least he didn't just outright quit playing like Jordan. More MVP's than anyone ever. At 7'2", His skyhook is the single most unguardable play in the history of the game.
- BENCH PG/SG - Dennis Johnson - HOF, 3x Champ, 1x Finals MVP, 2x All-NBA, 9x All-Def, 5x All-star. Defensive stopper and distributor off the bench. He led the Sonics to their only championship in 1979. He shut down Magic in 1984 finals to win the title. Bird called him his greatest teammate and Magic said he was the toughest backcourt defender of all time. If the matchup warrants it, I could start DJ over Lillard.
- BENCH SF - Adrian Dantley - HOF, 2x Scoring Champ, 2x All-NBA, 6x All-star, ROY. Bench scorer. Dude was a walking bucket in the 80's. He lived in the midrange and shot 54% for his career and averaged 8.7 FT's per game. His headfakes, pumpfakes and footwork were impeccable and nearly impossible to guard. I don't need him to do anything on this squad but come in and get points off the bench, which he will do with aplomb.
- BENCH PF - Spencer Haywood - HOF, 1x Champ, 1x ABA MVP, 4x All-NBA, 5x All-star. Bench post rebounder and defender. Haywood spent 1 year in the ABA and so utterly dominated, he is considered one of that league's best of all-time. He then wasted a year fighting the NBA in court. Once he got into the league, he won 4 straight All-NBA and All-Star awards, getting MVP votes and averaging 25.4 ppg and 12.1 rpg over those seasons. After that, his career was derailed by drugs, but for about 6 years he was an all-time great player and a dominant player in the post in an era of great post players.
There is also tremendous versatility. If I need more perimeter defense, DJ can start in place of Lillard. I can go big by pulling Pierce for Haywood and put Giannis at the 3 or go small and let Giannis take the C with any of the 3 bench guys coming in for Kareem. There isn't a team in this contest that I feel would be too tough to guard or too tough to score on for this squad. When you have the greatest scorer of all-time with the most unstoppable shot in history, it makes that end of things a little easier. Add Wade/Giannis attacking the basket and running the floor, Lillard/Pierce spotting up from deep, and Dantley taking his man one on one and this team will hunt and attack weak defenders for plenty of scoring. The only weak defender on my squad would be Lillard and he can be covered by DJ when needed.
I don't know if I trust the judging after that Best In Show debacle, but this squad is very, very good.
I will be cracking a beer and working on those in a few minutesSince I don’t have any pantheon rankings yet and since I won’t be able to get to any writeups and consolidation today, I’m going to extend the ranking timeline to tomorrow end of day.
I'll bite:I wanted to give another chance for others to weigh in on my team, as well as to offer add'l details & differentiate between my/other teams. My question from my post was: please let me know of any weakness – in which area is this team not dominant? I wanna hear it.
There is no speculation as to how these players will execute (they've already done it), and there is no injury question mark (they've each thrived for decades). <-- can the same be said of other teams on both offense & defense?
Again, please let me know of any weakness – in which area is this team not dominant? I wanna hear it.
I asked & you delivered.I'm obviously going a little over the top here (ok a lot over the top) but I took the tone of your post as one that would appreciate a little sports-bar-style fun in here. Hope I read that tone correctly
Your PG is a raging ball hog who has never won anythingAgain, please let me know of any weakness – in which area is this team not dominant? I wanna hear it.
B-Frosty's Pantheon Team:
PG: Bob Cousy. HOF. MVP. 12x ALL-NBA. 13x ALL-STAR. 6x NBA CHAMP. 8x Assist Leader. 20th all-time in assists. 12th all-time in triple doubles. Top 100 in scoring. 19.8ppg/5.7rpg/7.9apg
SG: Pete Maravich. HOF. 4x ALL-NBA. 5x ALL-STAR. 1x Scoring Leader. 20th all-time in PPG. Top 100 in APG. 25.2ppg/4.5rpg/5.7apg/1.5spg
SF: Lebron James. 4x MVP. 16x ALL-NBA. 17x ALL-STAR. 4x NBA CHAMP. 4x FINALS MVP. 6x ALL DEFENSE. 1x scoring leader. 1x assist leader. 3rd all-time in scoring. Top 50 all-time in rebounds. 8th all-time in assists. 14th all-time in steals. 27.5ppg/7.6rpg/7.5apg/1.6spg.
PF: Willis Reed. HOF. 1x MVP. 5x ALL-NBA. 7x ALL-STAR. 1x ALL DEFENSE. 2x NBA CHAMP. 2x FINALS MVP. 13th all-time in RPG. Top 100 in career points and rebounds. 21.1ppg/14.0rpg/2.0spg.
C - Alonzo Mourning. HOF. 2x ALL NBA. 7x ALL-STAR. 2x DEF POY. 2x ALL DEFENSE. 1x CHAMP. 2x Block leader. 12th all-time in blocks. Top 100 in offensive and defensive rebounds. 21.ppg/10.1rpg/3.1bpg
BENCH:
G - Bill Sharman. HOF. 7x ALL NBA. 8x ALL STAR. 4x NBA CHAMP. 21.5ppg/4.4rpg/3.4apg
F - Shawn Kemp. 3x ALL NBA. 6x ALL-STAR. 63rd all-time in rebounds. Top 100 all-time in steals and blocks. Tops all-time in monster dunks right in your stupid face. 18.3ppg/10.4rpg/2.1apg/1.4spg/1.5bpg.
F- Glen Rice. 2x ALL NBA. 3x ALL-STAR. 1x NBA CHAMP. 38th all-time in 3pt %. 33rd all-time in made 3s. Top 5 shooter of all-time. 22.2ppg/4.8rpg/2.3apg/1.1spg
I mean, whoa. I am sure your jaws are all on the floor after looking at that and several of you have jumped out of windows in shame rather than deal with this team. I mean, 5 Hall-of-Famers. 6 MVPs. 58 All-NBAs. 69 (nice) ALL-STARS. 18 Championships. 6 Finals MVPs. 9 all-defensive berths. Entire team averages at least 18.3ppg. 3-double digit per game rebounders. 3 guys averaging at least 5.5 assists per game. 7 guys who averaged at least 1 steal or block per game.
The other thing about these guys: no doubts, no projections, no "well maybe"s. These guys have completed their careers (except Lebron) and you know exactly who they are, and they are outstanding. All eight of these guys can do a little bit of everything, and do it well. Glen Rice is probably the closest thing I have to a non-complete player, and he averaged over a steal per game and made 2 all-nba teams, so I think he's ok.
Another thing, I could make the argument that I have the best player from the 50s, 60s, 00s, and 10s. This team is a monster. Perfectly balanced, perfectly coordinated, and they fit together perfect. We can play big, we can play small, we can play fast, we can play a half-court game, we can shoot, we can drive, we can pass. This is probably the best assembling of talent the world has ever seen, and they fit together seamlessly.
I started to address this because I knew it would come up....Your PG is a raging ball hog who has never won anything
On a serious note:Let’s start with the obvious: if you think Westbrook will be too toxic/selfish, think again. After Cheeks briefly replaces him, Artis/Elvin will give Russ a menacing glare with Dikembe behind them wagging his finger. Another thing: in 8-yrs playing with KD.... Russ only led the Thunder in scoring once.
Your backcourt is a mess. 2 flashy ball hogs. Lets call it Lebron a Hall of Famer. That is 6/8. Pretty good but I've 7/8 with my one miss still active and with a 50/50 shot at the HOF now according to Basketball Ref. It could be an 8/8 squad I have.Frosty's Pantheon Team:
PG: Bob Cousy. HOF. MVP. 12x ALL-NBA. 13x ALL-STAR. 6x NBA CHAMP. 8x Assist Leader. 20th all-time in assists. 12th all-time in triple doubles. Top 100 in scoring. 19.8ppg/5.7rpg/7.9apg
SG: Pete Maravich. HOF. 4x ALL-NBA. 5x ALL-STAR. 1x Scoring Leader. 20th all-time in PPG. Top 100 in APG. 25.2ppg/4.5rpg/5.7apg/1.5spg
SF: Lebron James. 4x MVP. 16x ALL-NBA. 17x ALL-STAR. 4x NBA CHAMP. 4x FINALS MVP. 6x ALL DEFENSE. 1x scoring leader. 1x assist leader. 3rd all-time in scoring. Top 50 all-time in rebounds. 8th all-time in assists. 14th all-time in steals. 27.5ppg/7.6rpg/7.5apg/1.6spg.
PF: Willis Reed. HOF. 1x MVP. 5x ALL-NBA. 7x ALL-STAR. 1x ALL DEFENSE. 2x NBA CHAMP. 2x FINALS MVP. 13th all-time in RPG. Top 100 in career points and rebounds. 21.1ppg/14.0rpg/2.0spg.
C - Alonzo Mourning. HOF. 2x ALL NBA. 7x ALL-STAR. 2x DEF POY. 2x ALL DEFENSE. 1x CHAMP. 2x Block leader. 12th all-time in blocks. Top 100 in offensive and defensive rebounds. 21.ppg/10.1rpg/3.1bpg
BENCH:
G - Bill Sharman. HOF. 7x ALL NBA. 8x ALL STAR. 4x NBA CHAMP. 21.5ppg/4.4rpg/3.4apg
F - Shawn Kemp. 3x ALL NBA. 6x ALL-STAR. 63rd all-time in rebounds. Top 100 all-time in steals and blocks. Tops all-time in monster dunks right in your stupid face. 18.3ppg/10.4rpg/2.1apg/1.4spg/1.5bpg.
F- Glen Rice. 2x ALL NBA. 3x ALL-STAR. 1x NBA CHAMP. 38th all-time in 3pt %. 33rd all-time in made 3s. Top 5 shooter of all-time. 22.2ppg/4.8rpg/2.3apg/1.1spg
Your perimeter defense is subpar and you have the worst championship pedigree of all 16 teams.I wanted to give another chance for others to weigh in on my team, as well as to offer add'l details & differentiate between my/other teams. My question from my post was: please let me know of any weakness – in which area is this team not dominant? I wanna hear it.
With reference to my team's individual career rankings....
- All teams have titans but none moreso than my team in terms of both offense & defense.
- One could say that, from a pure stat-perspective, a well-balanced team would like to have at least one of the top-16 (or 32, or 48) at each major stat. <-- this may be the wrong way to look at it but is one way in which one could look at it With that in mind....
- My starters have the following ranks in total points: 8, 12, 24, 27, 42
- My team includes the following ranks in total rebounds: 5, 6, 21, 35
- My team includes the following ranks in assists: 13, 14
- My team includes the following ranks in steals: 5, 8, 31, 38, 49
- My team includes the following ranks in blocked shots: 2, 4, 23, 28
- My team includes the following ranks in 3's made: 3, 32
The first stat I listed above (total points rankings) may lead some to wonder how this team would fare together. As mentioned in my original post, Not all will be called upon to lead in scoring (I'm looking at you, Artis & Russ); but they'll all be there when necessary.
When my top-3 scoring starters (#'s 8, 12 and 24) each play complimentary positions (SF, PF and SG) and styles....good luck defending that. And if/when the # 27/42 scorers get the green light in prime spots (balanced, and when necessary), the team will score in droves from every conceivable position -- I don't believe there's any team that can totally defend that.
While Russ doesn't necessarily need the P&R to start an offensive set, his driving will lead to different options regarding the roller, a streaking Dr J, or a 3 from Reggie (spacing won't be an issue here).
Once the starters get a double-digit lead (inevitable) is when the pressure really comes on. One rotation (of many) will feature the #5 and #8 in steals (Dr J and Cheeks, in for Russ) and #2 and #4 in blocks (Artis and Dikembe, in for Big E).
There is no speculation as to how these players will execute (they've already done it), and there is no injury question mark (they've each thrived for decades). <-- can the same be said of other teams on both offense & defense?
Again, please let me know of any weakness – in which area is this team not dominant? I wanna hear it.
You're bringing up one metric that I truly care nothing about. Zero....zilch. If that comes back to bite me....so be it.Your perimeter defense is subpar and you have the worst championship pedigree of all 16 teams.
Obviously winning is unimportant in basketball. Not worth considering really.You're bringing up one metric that I truly care nothing about. Zero....zilch. If that comes back to bite me....so be it.
No, it isn't. It's accurate. It's an opinion held by some of the smartest basketball minds I have met, all of whom I agree with. Steals don't make a good defender. Sometimes good defenders rack up steals (see, e.g., Kawhi Klaw Leonard). But dramatically more important is how you get them. Westbrook is a gambler. Almost none of hi ssteals are from positional defense or on ball defense. Most of them are reverse transition or on cross court swings - they're gambles. For every steal Westbrook has, there's like 3 free buckets he's given to the opposing team because a guy ball faked him or he was a step too fast or slow on his gamble and he didn't get the ball and the other team was suddenly up a man with Westbrook out of the play.I asked & you delivered.
- Russ being a defensive liability is flat wrong -- following is how he's ranked in steals for each individual year(not in chronological order): 2, 3, 4, 4, 5, 5, 8, 8, 14, 17. He may be re-known for offense/triple doubles but is still very strong defensively.
On a make-believe team where how players "gel" is all speculation, I simply decided to focus on drafting a team as well balanced in stats (facts) that I could. As long as (1) the supposed logic in their play (i.e. spacing between a driving PG, slashing Dr J, & outside-the-arc-Reggie Miller) -and- (2) talent (again, numbers don't lie) are top-shelf....I have zero problem with the end result, let alone bickering over how other people believe they'll jibe as a team. I don't believe Tony Parker has more credibility than Stockton because of his hardware. The same can be said for Worthy vs. Cliff Robinson -or- Horace Grant vs. Dale Davis.Obviously winning is unimportant in basketball. Not worth considering really.
Yes, the 8 time league assist leader is a ballhog. Great call. Your basketball intellect is truly dizzying.Your backcourt is a mess. 2 flashy ball hogs. Lets call it Lebron a Hall of Famer. That is 6/8. Pretty good but I've 7/8 with my one miss still active and with a 50/50 shot at the HOF now according to Basketball Ref. It could be an 8/8 squad I have.