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Gov. Abbott opens TX. MS, CT, WV, AZ & KS join. Now GOP opens Georgia!


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6 hours ago, Zow said:

I hope so. 

I live in a state (AZ) that's probably likely to follow suit. I really, really wish we'd hold off until next month or so as a significant amount of us will then be fully vaccinated by then. 

In other words, it seems like we're close but I wish we'd hold off just a bit longer to let the first few waves of the vaccinations crash safely. 

Arizona doesn’t have a statewide mask mandate. 

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The fact that well over a year later masks wearing is still political is mind numbingly stupid.

I get what you're saying, but CT is way ahead of most on this, is a small state that tracked and traced pretty effectively, and is indeed keeping restrictions and requirements intact. I have a ha

It is absolutely amazing to me how the American narrative on covid, opening up, masks and other safety precautions is the exact opposite of most every other western democratic society.  It is not surp

23 minutes ago, tonydead said:

Because they are no longer needed. You gonna wear a mask forever?  

You think they are no longer needed because we have vaccinated 8% of the population?

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31 minutes ago, tonydead said:

Because they are no longer needed. You gonna wear a mask forever?  

Why do you think they are no longer needed?

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21 minutes ago, tonydead said:

Arizona doesn’t have a statewide mask mandate. 

Correct. I should have specified. It's by county here (my county has one). Also the state/government buildings generally have mandates/requirements. 

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5 hours ago, Chaz McNulty said:

We do not have historicals without masks to really see how effective they are.  But if we look at the Flu, which is also spread mainly through water droplets in the air, we may be able to see if masks are effective.

Hospitalizations are down 98% year over year in the flu.  Most experts credit masks and social distancing.

I know that Covid and the Flu are not exactly alike, but I think it's crazy not to think that masks helped in a big way in keeping the Covid numbers down.

The flu stats are really quite interesting. We know from previous years how high those numbers used to be. If masks helped those numbers go down that far, how high could the covid numbers possibly be without them?

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28 minutes ago, Leroy Hoard said:

The flu stats are really quite interesting. We know from previous years how high those numbers used to be. If masks helped those numbers go down that far, how high could the covid numbers possibly be without them?

Yeah, the flu stats are the best argument for the COVID interventions.  This thing has killed half a million people in the same year we completely crushed the flu.  Without all those efforts the #s would be apocalyptic.

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54 minutes ago, tonydead said:

Remember when mask wearing and lockdowns were so we could flatten the curve?
Somehow that’s changed to people wanting the restrictions on even after the 65+ have been vaccinated? 
 

No. #ditchthemask

How many COVID deaths that would be prevented by simply wearing a mask for 2 more months, or until the curve flattens, are in the future? 

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1 hour ago, tonydead said:

Because they are no longer needed. You gonna wear a mask forever?  

I should also point out the enormous strawman here.  No one suggested wearing them forever.  But two or three more months just isn't all that much.  Suck it up.

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13 hours ago, FairWarning said:

Ironically this also helped the popularity of Limbaugh. He was on in a lot of small markets, and was kind of the voice of the R’s. This was a market that D talk radio never went after.  

They went after the market-they just had nobody good enough to last or more importantly to go national.  That being so, they tried to get Rush off the air for 30 years as the next best option.   That didn't work either.  

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7 minutes ago, shadrap said:

They went after the market-they just had nobody good enough to last or more importantly to go national.  That being so, they tried to get Rush off the air for 30 years as the next best option.   That didn't work either.  

Radio is a tough business.  Outside of talk radio, formats lasting 5 years is a major achievement.  TBH, I have no idea who the leading liberal talk show host is.  

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I've been on the fence on what is correct on the covid deal.  I mask up in retail & wipe hands when finished.  I'm smart enough to know that I'm dumb enough to know that I don't have any answers.  Let's see what happens & go from there.   I'm for the States opening up, but could be wrong.

cheers!

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7 hours ago, Stealthycat said:

so a wide open state has that few more deaths per million ........ and that's not factoring in all the other variables that doesn't give us real apples to apples comparisons

 

 

If TX was a wide open state than why did the governor just issue an order opening them up?

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4 hours ago, Mrs. Rannous said:

I should also point out the enormous strawman here.  No one suggested wearing them forever.  But two or three more months just isn't all that much.  Suck it up.

It's not half as bad as the "Well, you can still wear a mask if you WANT!@#" argument. 

I drive sober. Still, I'm fine with there being societal rules in place so others drive sober as well. My sober driving doesn't protect me from a stupid person driving drunk(because they are totally safe doing it.... just ask them).

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8 hours ago, BoltBacker said:

It's not half as bad as the "Well, you can still wear a mask if you WANT!@#" argument. 

I drive sober. Still, I'm fine with there being societal rules in place so others drive sober as well. My sober driving doesn't protect me from a stupid person driving drunk(because they are totally safe doing it.... just ask them).

This was a great argument in favor of mask mandates a few months ago.  I agreed with it wholeheartedly, and I would do so again if we were in the same situation that we were then.

But we're not.  We now have a bunch of people who are immune to covid for one reason or another.  There's no particular reason why they should mask up -- they're not a threat to you or themselves.  If you haven't been vaccinated yet, by all means keep wearing a mask.  I'm not vaccinated, and I wear one when I'm out in public.  I would do so even if there wasn't a mandate in my city.  But what business is it of mine if a vaccinated person decides that they'd rather not bother?  Good for them, and I look forward to joining their ranks.

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6 minutes ago, IvanKaramazov said:

This was a great argument in favor of mask mandates a few months ago.  I agreed with it wholeheartedly, and I would do so again if we were in the same situation that we were then.

But we're not.  We now have a bunch of people who are immune to covid for one reason or another.  There's no particular reason why they should mask up -- they're not a threat to you or themselves.  If you haven't been vaccinated yet, by all means keep wearing a mask.  I'm not vaccinated, and I wear one when I'm out in public.  I would do so even if there wasn't a mandate in my city.  But what business is it of mine if a vaccinated person decides that they'd rather not bother?  Good for them, and I look forward to joining their ranks.

Not vouching for the conclusion here, just sharing for the interest of discussion. 
 

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/yes-you-should-still-wear-mask-after-covid-19-vaccination-180977054/

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3 minutes ago, bigbottom said:

Not vouching for the conclusion here, just sharing for the interest of discussion. 
 

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/yes-you-should-still-wear-mask-after-covid-19-vaccination-180977054/

Yeah, I know.  I'm going to need to see affirmative evidence that vaccinated people continue to spread the virus before I accept that conclusion. 

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25 minutes ago, IvanKaramazov said:

Yeah, I know.  I'm going to need to see affirmative evidence that vaccinated people continue to spread the virus before I accept that conclusion. 

Shouldn’t it be the other way around? That we need to see affirmative evidence that they don’t spread the virus before we tell them not to wear masks? 
In addition, there is the risk that if they stop, others who aren’t vaccinated yet will stop as well, which is still unsafe. 
 

Why can’t we wait a few more months on this? 

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44 minutes ago, IvanKaramazov said:

This was a great argument in favor of mask mandates a few months ago.  I agreed with it wholeheartedly, and I would do so again if we were in the same situation that we were then.

But we're not.  We now have a bunch of people who are immune to covid for one reason or another.  There's no particular reason why they should mask up -- they're not a threat to you or themselves.  If you haven't been vaccinated yet, by all means keep wearing a mask.  I'm not vaccinated, and I wear one when I'm out in public.  I would do so even if there wasn't a mandate in my city.  But what business is it of mine if a vaccinated person decides that they'd rather not bother?  Good for them, and I look forward to joining their ranks.

There are lots of studies showing that people’s behaviors are shaped very much by the people around them.  Some are really striking - like people not leaving buildings when a fire alarm goes off if everyone else is also ignoring it.  I suspect that allowing immune people to stop wearing masks will influence lots of non-immune people to also stop wearing masks.  If you were fortunate enough to be an early recipient of the vaccine, then continuing to wear a mask for a few more months just for the sake of performance doesn’t seem like a terrible bargain.

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20 hours ago, Chaz McNulty said:

We do not have historicals without masks to really see how effective they are.  But if we look at the Flu, which is also spread mainly through water droplets in the air, we may be able to see if masks are effective.

Hospitalizations are down 98% year over year in the flu.  Most experts credit masks and social distancing.

I know that Covid and the Flu are not exactly alike, but I think it's crazy not to think that masks helped in a big way in keeping the Covid numbers down.

but covid numbers are NOT down

they sky rocketed during closures, lockdowns, mask wearing, restrictions etc

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20 hours ago, Mrs. Rannous said:

So actual facts make no difference at all to you?  Masks work, and they don't cost much at all.  They are barely inconvenient.

Deal.

facts are that during mask wearing months, covid numbers were highest ever

yes, facts matter

they don't cost much except the billions of them tossed into the environment as pollution/waste 

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20 hours ago, Zow said:

Well, yeah, obviously the masks didn't absolutely stop the spread. Similarly, seatbelts don't stop all injuries in accidents and good helmets don't stop all concussions. The question is whether they're mitigating those injuries enough (or in the Covid-19 case whether they are substantially curtailing/slowing the spread) that it is worth requiring their wear. 

hey Zow, that's actually a good comparison 

except with seatbelts/helmets, you're talking about a solid accident/event and protective equipment vs an airborne virus that literally is in every county across the USA

but its not exactly the masks - if people wore them 24x7x365 when they are everyone AND kept them sanitary AND washed their hands religiously AND all the other things ..... I think everyone would agree that would be impactful

but what we see is people wearing home made masks, not been washed in weeks, only being worn when walking into a place they're forced to wear them ............ and during the months the mask mandate was fully on, those were the months with covid cases the highest ever

 

the facts do not support wearing masks reduced anything - wearing seatbelts/helmets DID actually results in fewer/lower cases of injuries 

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5 minutes ago, Stealthycat said:

facts are that during mask wearing months, covid numbers were highest ever

yes, facts matter

 

Yes, they do.

The Kansas mask requirement went into effect on July 3, when coronavirus cases were rising across the state. But 81 counties opted out of the mandate, as permitted by state law. The other 24 counties — which account for the majority of the state's population — chose to require that masks be worn in public places

On average, the counties that required masks saw a 6% reduction in cases (calculated as a seven-day rolling average of new daily cases per capita). In contrast, the counties that opted out saw a 100% increase.

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13 hours ago, dawgtrails said:

If TX was a wide open state than why did the governor just issue an order opening them up?

I mean they are now - and lets see what the cases are (in the coming weeks) compared to a state like CA still freaking out 

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Just now, dawgtrails said:

Yes, they do.

The Kansas mask requirement went into effect on July 3, when coronavirus cases were rising across the state. But 81 counties opted out of the mandate, as permitted by state law. The other 24 counties — which account for the majority of the state's population — chose to require that masks be worn in public places

On average, the counties that required masks saw a 6% reduction in cases (calculated as a seven-day rolling average of new daily cases per capita). In contrast, the counties that opted out saw a 100% increase.

link ?

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1 hour ago, IvanKaramazov said:

This was a great argument in favor of mask mandates a few months ago.  I agreed with it wholeheartedly, and I would do so again if we were in the same situation that we were then.

But we're not.  We now have a bunch of people who are immune to covid for one reason or another.  There's no particular reason why they should mask up -- they're not a threat to you or themselves.  If you haven't been vaccinated yet, by all means keep wearing a mask.  I'm not vaccinated, and I wear one when I'm out in public.  I would do so even if there wasn't a mandate in my city.  But what business is it of mine if a vaccinated person decides that they'd rather not bother?  Good for them, and I look forward to joining their ranks.

 

This seems like it'd be fine if the result of Abbott's decision was that people who are vaccinated won't wear a mask and people who are not will wear a mask. 

But in reality a lot of people who are not vaccinated will not wear a mask. And I believe that puts others at greater risk than if those folks wore a mask. 

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7 minutes ago, dawgtrails said:

seems like a biased article from the last sentences

"Shaman acknowledges that "we're all exhausted by this virus. But the reality is the virus doesn't care. All it looks for is the opportunity to move from person to person," he says.

And a mask is a harmless, cheap way of slowing it down."

 

I wear a mask in public and people feel safer. That's a small price to pay IMO but its NOT going to stop the spread and facts are, it hasn't. People are going to unmask and do what they want to do and that's what happened. 

 

 

Why aren't we seeing a massive anti-obesity campaign ?

https://www.cnn.com/2021/03/04/health/obesity-covid-death-rate-intl/index.html?fbclid=IwAR2mSFRkeGRo297JLy7hySEIY9gV6AbiFmQ5BEi-tR9B2BQPbZ-eCR-JU50

 

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1 minute ago, Stealthycat said:

seems like a biased article from the last sentences

"Shaman acknowledges that "we're all exhausted by this virus. But the reality is the virus doesn't care. All it looks for is the opportunity to move from person to person," he says.

And a mask is a harmless, cheap way of slowing it down."

 

 

Say what now?

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Couple thoughts on this:

  1. This isn't the first state that has lifted restrictions to predictions of impending doom (Florida and Iowa come to mind).  It hasn't born out in the past, hopefully the same is true this time.  Whether that's because the restrictions do less good than we think or because people's actions are only somewhat affected by mandates is up for debate.
  2. I wish in general we would stop treating things that are minor drivers as if they are important.  For example, while it's technically possible to get this twice or spread it after you're vaccinated, there's no reason to think the overall disease trajectory will be driven by those factors.
  3. I actually think fatguyinalittecoat makes the strongest "keep restrictions" point.  I do think if 10-15% of people started ignoring the restrictions because they are essentially immune, others who shouldn't be ignoring them will follow.  Since you can't tell someone has been vaccinated by looking at them, you risk starting a chain reaction where the majority of people go back to the old normal.
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1 hour ago, timschochet said:

Shouldn’t it be the other way around? That we need to see affirmative evidence that they don’t spread the virus before we tell them not to wear masks? 

No.  There should be an affirmative reason to tell people to do stuff that they'd rather not do.

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1 hour ago, fatguyinalittlecoat said:

There are lots of studies showing that people’s behaviors are shaped very much by the people around them.  Some are really striking - like people not leaving buildings when a fire alarm goes off if everyone else is also ignoring it.  I suspect that allowing immune people to stop wearing masks will influence lots of non-immune people to also stop wearing masks.  If you were fortunate enough to be an early recipient of the vaccine, then continuing to wear a mask for a few more months just for the sake of performance doesn’t seem like a terrible bargain.

That's fine.  Just keep it voluntary.

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42 minutes ago, dawgtrails said:

Say what now?

the person writing the article is pro-mask wearing IMO, looks to be an article written in support of mask wearing, a biased article

again- we know for an absolute fact during the peak of covid reported infections/deaths were also the peaks of states mandating mask wearing

 

 

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2 minutes ago, IvanKaramazov said:

No.  There should be an affirmative reason to tell people to do stuff that they'd rather not do.

We’re not starting from that point. We’re starting from a point where everybody needs to wear a mask and hopefully moving towards the day where it will no longer be necessary. I don’t think we’re at that day yet. 

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1 minute ago, timschochet said:

We’re not starting from that point. We’re starting from a point where everybody needs to wear a mask and hopefully moving towards the day where it will no longer be necessary. I don’t think we’re at that day yet. 

Yeah, this is what I'm talking about.  "Everybody needs to wear a mask" was true at one point.  It's not true today.

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2 minutes ago, Stealthycat said:

the person writing the article is pro-mask wearing IMO, looks to be an article written in support of mask wearing, a biased article

again- we know for an absolute fact during the peak of covid reported infections/deaths were also the peaks of states mandating mask wearing

 

 

I provided a link to a study. You have provided your words.

If you have some link to prove your point, please share

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2 minutes ago, IvanKaramazov said:

That's fine.  Just keep it voluntary.

this is where I lean to as well

 

IF you are a person who is susceptible to a virus - stay at home, be cautious and careful. The people 99.9% chances to NOT get covid?  Why restrict them? I've never understood quarantining healthy people and restricting healthy people. 

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2 minutes ago, timschochet said:

We’re not starting from that point. We’re starting from a point where everybody needs to wear a mask and hopefully moving towards the day where it will no longer be necessary. I don’t think we’re at that day yet. 

why do I need to wear a mask? 

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1 minute ago, timschochet said:

We’re not starting from that point. We’re starting from a point where everybody needs to wear a mask and hopefully moving towards the day where it will no longer be necessary. I don’t think we’re at that day yet. 

You're right that we aren't starting from that point, but isn't that the issue?  In general sweeping government actions should have data backing them up before they are implemented.  Rightly or wrongly, during this pandemic jurisdictions have shot from the hip and taken the stance "prove to us this is unnecessary".  

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So...dumb question I guess, but that seems to be common in this thread, so here it goes.  What is the number of covid cases we have in the world where we didn't use masks?  Seems like that information is out there somewhere.  How else could we claim that masks aren't working?  We need to know what the number is with masks out of the equation, right?  :oldunsure: 

ETA:  I mean we had that one predictive study that said if we do "nothing" we could estimate 1-2 million deaths.  Right now we are passing the 500K mark, but that seems to be supporting the opposite narrative of "we know masks don't work". 

 

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2 minutes ago, Dr_Zaius said:

You're right that we aren't starting from that point, but isn't that the issue?  In general sweeping government actions should have data backing them up before they are implemented.  Rightly or wrongly, during this pandemic jurisdictions have shot from the hip and taken the stance "prove to us this is unnecessary".  

We have plenty of evidence that masks reduce spread, do we not?

To Ivan's point, it might be one thing to remove the mandate for vaccinated people (I'm not in favor, but for sake of argument), but that's not what's happening here.  The mandate is being removed for everyone, vaccinated or not.

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48 minutes ago, Stealthycat said:

seems like a biased article from the last sentences

"Shaman acknowledges that "we're all exhausted by this virus. But the reality is the virus doesn't care. All it looks for is the opportunity to move from person to person," he says.

And a mask is a harmless, cheap way of slowing it down."

 

I wear a mask in public and people feel safer. That's a small price to pay IMO but its NOT going to stop the spread and facts are, it hasn't. People are going to unmask and do what they want to do and that's what happened. 

 

 

Why aren't we seeing a massive anti-obesity campaign ?

https://www.cnn.com/2021/03/04/health/obesity-covid-death-rate-intl/index.html?fbclid=IwAR2mSFRkeGRo297JLy7hySEIY9gV6AbiFmQ5BEi-tR9B2BQPbZ-eCR-JU50

 

This is the very reason why arguing or discussing these points are a fruitless gesture. 

 

1) Someone posts a factoid (I'm not going to call it a "fact" bc it wasn't peer reviewed) that shows the initial argument that "masks arent effective" is untrue.

2) the person who disagrees with this factoid asks for proof of the factoid.

3) said person provides the proof

4) Original person questions the bias of the report.

 

Its hard to hear, but masks work.  Yes, having altered our way of life is exhausting, and even those of us who believe masks work are tired of wearing them.  Being flippant about mask wear (or worse, making it the dumbest political statement ever) doesn't make a lick of sense, but people want to be right more so than being safe, or just "own the libs" or whatever.

Wearing a condom isn't 100% effective, and having unprotected sex doesn't mean you will get someone pregnant.  Still want to raw dog someone every time knowing you are financially on the hook if you knock her up? 

The good news here is the vaccine looks to be helpful in that 1) It does seem to slow the spread, and 2) if you get COVID you likely don't end up in the hospital, so whats the big deal about holding out 3 more months until everyone who wants a shot gets one?

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1 minute ago, Dr_Zaius said:

You're right that we aren't starting from that point, but isn't that the issue?  In general sweeping government actions should have data backing them up before they are implemented.  Rightly or wrongly, during this pandemic jurisdictions have shot from the hip and taken the stance "prove to us this is unnecessary".  

Not from my perspective. 
I’m no scientist; my argument is pretty simple: the doctors and public health experts are saying, nearly unanimously, it’s not time yet to stop wearing masks. They say that if we do this now it will cause more needless sickness and death. They also say that in a few months it might be OK. 
 

I love @IvanKaramazov in this forum, he’s a very thoughtful guy, but on this I gotta listen to the experts. What’s the harm in doing so? 

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It's interesting that to some people the only solution is that EVERYONE be vaccinated before things get back to normal.  We KNOW that many people have had it without symptoms.  We KNOW that many people have had it, with symptoms.  We KNOW that some people seem to have a natural immunity to it.  We also have much better treatment offerings for the people who do get it.  We aren't just putting people on ventilators when they get it as seemed common early on.  Also, in general our vaccination groups have been the most vulnerable.  Vaccinating 10% of the most vulnerable is much more effective than vaccinating a random 10%. 

At some point we need to be able to let people live their lives.  This thing has been devastating in so many ways that have nothing to do with being sick and/or dying from it.  Are we at that point yet?  That's certainly debatable.  But I don't think it's certain that we're not at that point, and it's not surprising that some states that have a more individual responsibility type attitude would be opening up first. 

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9 minutes ago, timschochet said:

Not from my perspective. 
I’m no scientist; my argument is pretty simple: the doctors and public health experts are saying, nearly unanimously, it’s not time yet to stop wearing masks. They say that if we do this now it will cause more needless sickness and death. They also say that in a few months it might be OK. 
 

I love @IvanKaramazov in this forum, he’s a very thoughtful guy, but on this I gotta listen to the experts. What’s the harm in doing so? 

I think if I play devil's advocate on the harms they fall into a few categories.

  1. The meta point that you are potentially permanently lowering the bar for the government imposing restrictions on people.  Slippery slope, yada yada.
  2. I know people lots of people view wearing masks as zero cost, but I don't think that's entirely true.  There's a big difference between wearing a mask while you shop for groceries for 20 minutes and wearing one for hours at a time.  It's a lot harder to communicate.  If there is a high background noise level, you end up yelling a lot and your throat gets sore.  People get face rashes.  Obviously if it saves thousands of lives these are trivial, but that's a cost benefit analysis, not an argument for zero cost.
  3. General coercion.  I'll apologize for using a stupid analogy here.  I've invented the anti-covid plunger hat.  You wrap the handle of a plunger in double-sided tape and stick the plunger on top of your head.  Maybe some of the virus sticks to the plunger handle and reduces the amount of virus in the air.  If this was mandated, would you happily wear one?  I mean, there's no real cost other than looking stupid and maybe bumping into doorways.  But if you thought that this plunger hat doesn't do any good, you would probably resent being forced to wear one, no?
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27 minutes ago, IvanKaramazov said:

That's fine.  Just keep it voluntary.

Wearing a mask depends on the setting. In a hospital elevator, should it be mandatory?  Yes. Taking a walk outdoors on Lincoln Road? No. In a jury room , probably yes. In a University lecture hall with 100 students. Yes. In Trader Joe's. Yes. 

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5 minutes ago, Dr_Zaius said:

But if you thought that this plunger hat doesn't do any good, you would probably resent being forced to wear one, no?

How is that different from seat belts, motorcycle helmets, stop signs, or any number of other things that people might irrationally believe don't do any good?

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Within 6 months, probably less, we’re going to be done with this. I don’t understand why people are arguing that the masks need to stop RIGHT NOW. I’m not hearing a compelling argument here. 

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40 minutes ago, dawgtrails said:

I provided a link to a study. You have provided your words.

If you have some link to prove your point, please share

Yes, but he detected a slight bias in your link, so it must be part of the Democrat agenda to keep everyone in line.  Once this bias is detected, it does not matter what the facts of the study show!

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  • NorvilleBarnes changed the title to Gov. Abbott opens TX. MS, CT, WV, AZ & KS join. Now GOP opens Georgia!

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