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Gov. Abbott opens TX. MS, CT, WV, AZ & KS join. Now GOP opens Georgia!


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I get what you're saying, but CT is way ahead of most on this, is a small state that tracked and traced pretty effectively, and is indeed keeping restrictions and requirements intact. I have a ha

The fact that well over a year later masks wearing is still political is mind numbingly stupid.

It is absolutely amazing to me how the American narrative on covid, opening up, masks and other safety precautions is the exact opposite of most every other western democratic society.  It is not surp

1 hour ago, The Z Machine said:

What are you walking about?

Are you suggesting that the state governments use their public health police powers to forcibly quarantine those that are confirmed COVID positive?  Like China does?

Fed is in charge of immigration.   States are banned from enforcing  immigration  law.  

Are you suggesting it's OK to let people with covid on airplanes?

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5 minutes ago, IvanKaramazov said:

Yet they are retaining mask mandates, bars remain closed, capacity restrictions on movies threaters, and continued caps on gathering sizes.  Also a phased reopening and not everything happening in two weeks.  Yeah, so not the same.  

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1 hour ago, IvanKaramazov said:

I get what you're saying, but CT is way ahead of most on this, is a small state that tracked and traced pretty effectively, and is indeed keeping restrictions and requirements intact.

I have a hard time comparing this to a state the size of Texas and its new rollout.

But there's a broader point you're getting to about a double standard applied that I don't see. Far from the risk calculus you eloquently talked about in prior posts, it seems apparent that red states still view shutdowns and masks and basic science as a political football to punt around and pretend they weren't wrong about. They still think the existence of an exaggerated phenomenon is what cost them, and not the horrible response -- a dereliction of leadership, I'd say -- to a virus that kills old people and the infirm. (Let's cut to the chase; that's who it generally kills and everybody knows it.)

Team Red played politics with a virus and lost -- and they're still playing politics with it and it's still going to kill people. I have no love for Team Blue, that's for sure, but this doesn't seem like a both sides thing. It seems like one side has taken the completely wrong side, and has decided that their risk calculations include untold deaths in hopes that they won't suffer the consequences politically for efficiency of economy, and they seem to have made the wrong calculus on that front and continue to do so. When the populace wants to be shut down, the populace stays down, and ain't no ill-fitting suited Texas idiot gonna change that.

Edited by rockaction
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1 hour ago, Mrs. Rannous said:

I fail to see what your mask preference was before all this started is relevant unless you celebrate Mardi Gras year-round.

Wait, the bolded would be a bad thing?

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This seems like they're paying homage to Trump in their own messed-up way.  It will be so sad if cases spike in these areas and there ends up being more deaths.  I'm thinking that most will continue to wear a mask.

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1 hour ago, quick-hands said:

Fed is in charge of immigration.   States are banned from enforcing  immigration  law.  

Are you suggesting it's OK to let people with covid on airplanes?

I still don't know what you're talking about.  Can you expand a bit?

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2 hours ago, IvanKaramazov said:

For example, requiring vaccinated people to wear masks obviously entrenches the "wear a mask" norm, but it also discourages vaccination.

I doubt there's many people that are rejecting an opportunity to get a vaccine because they would still need to wear a mask afterwards.  In most places not named Texas or Mississippi, the alternative is to not get a vaccine and to still be required to wear a mask.

Now, if you had a COVID passport thing, then it would encourage people to get vaccinated.

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As of Thursday morning, the novel coronavirus has infected more than 115,226,491 people across 192 countries and territories, resulting in at least 2,560,987 deaths. In the U.S., all 50 states plus the District of Columbia have reported confirmed cases of COVID-19, tallying more than 28,760,954 illnesses and at least 518,453 deaths.

So 1.8% death rate for USA?

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1 hour ago, Redwes25 said:
1 hour ago, IvanKaramazov said:

Yet they are retaining mask mandates, bars remain closed, capacity restrictions on movies threaters, and continued caps on gathering sizes.  Also a phased reopening and not everything happening in two weeks.  Yeah, so not the same.  

Sounds like a good plan. I think most people are open to their states re-opening, so long as there a plan in place

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2 hours ago, IvanKaramazov said:

I didn't wear a mask before covid, and I'm not going to wear a mask after covid.  If that makes me not a grown-up, sorry.  

The discussion right now is at what point we as a society transition from "everybody must wear a mask" to "most people should wear a mask but use your own judgement" to "you can throw your mask away now."  That's a somewhat difficult issue because it involves trading off a bunch of various personal preferences against public safety, all with an eye toward encouraging good behavior.  For example, requiring vaccinated people to wear masks obviously entrenches the "wear a mask" norm, but it also discourages vaccination.  If you think this is an easy issue with an obvious answer, I submit that you probably haven't thought about it very carefully.

What would it take for you to accept the possibility that wearing a mask is reasonable grown-up behavior? I’m not talking at all times or situations, but would it be ridiculous to suggest widespread mask wearing during flu season (or when flu prevalence exceeds a threshold in your community) for example? 

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1 minute ago, Terminalxylem said:

What would it take for you to accept the possibility that wearing a mask is reasonable grown-up behavior? I’m not talking at all times or situations, but would it be ridiculous to suggest widespread mask wearing during flu season (or when flu prevalence exceeds a threshold in your community) for example? 

I'll speak for myself on this. I really do think that not wearing a mask during flu season is absolutely okay with me. This virus has not caused me to rethink the risk calculus of death by flu. I don't feel bad saying it. This isn't an excuse to smuggle the risk preference of the sometimes nanny and ninny among us to the fore.

That gets a full stop from me, and the expectations of "reasonable grown-up behavior" regarding the flu and compulsory mask-wearing can fly a kite as far as I'm concerned. 

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And I'm all about masks and double masks through May or June. But at some point, we do need to make an assessment about our way of life, the cost of death, and the reality of both. What you express is a slippery slope people were afraid of, and your sort of public health concern to the contrary of most people just cements in anti-masker's minds that someone was really coming for their way of life, either through compulsion, or if not compulsion, then scorn, which can be just as bad. 

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I’m all for relaxing restrictions soon but not yet. We’re so close that we have to find a screw it up. Today I did second COVID shots at the retirement community. A recent poll of residents showed 70% are at least partial vaccinated and another 13% are trying. Are the restrictions fully needed there? Probably not. The problem is that most places you go, you don’t have that level of vaccination. Give it a couple more months of aggressive vaccinations and many public spaces you go to will be 50%+.

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3 hours ago, Biff84 said:

I A recent poll of residents showed 70% are at least partial vaccinated and another 13% are trying. 

That's much different than the data I saw just a couple of days ago. It was 15% that had a single shot and under 8% that had their second vaccination shot across the US. 

Either way, I agree with you that it seems like a few weeks(or maybe even a couple of months) makes more sense until a much higher percentage of the population has been fully vaccinated. Seems like the finish line is in sight now, unlike the first time Abbott opened too early and it blew up in his face.

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13 hours ago, Terminalxylem said:

What would it take for you to accept the possibility that wearing a mask is reasonable grown-up behavior? I’m not talking at all times or situations, but would it be ridiculous to suggest widespread mask wearing during flu season (or when flu prevalence exceeds a threshold in your community) for example? 

Well, I wear a mask now even when nobody is forcing me to do so, so obviously I'm not opposed to mask wearing as a matter of principle.

If a person wants to wear a mask during flu season -- or any other time they feel like it -- that's fine with me.  

If the CDC recommends wearing a mask during flu season, I'll probably ignore that advice, the same way most of us routinely ignore all sorts of advice from the health and medical professionals during normal times. 

If my state put a flu season mask mandate on the ballot, I would vote against it.  I'm all for compelling people to wear masks in extreme situations -- like now -- but flu season isn't an extreme situation.  (I get my flu shot every year, but I'm interested in forcing other people to get flu shots too.  I know that's not what you were asking about, but they're similar in the sense that the flu isn't a big enough deal to start telling people what they can/can't/must do.)

Edit: It's probably worth noting here that I was wearing a mask back when the CDC was telling people not to bother.  Ignoring the CDC worked pretty well this time last year.

Edited by IvanKaramazov
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19 minutes ago, IvanKaramazov said:

If the CDC recommends wearing a mask during flu season, I'll probably ignore that advice, the same way most of us routinely ignore all sorts of advice from the health and medical professionals during normal times

One year ago, you would have been listening to the CDC by not wearing a mask for the flu. 

 

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In my city, we have to be approaching herd immunity. 10% of residents have documented cases, 20% of residents have had at least one shot (of course some overlap there), who knows how many undocumented cases.

We're like 2 months away from herd immunity imo. Even among my circle of people it seems around 50% have had covid or the vaccine.

I think we're close to not needing masks. I also don't think it's a big deal to keep them another month or two.

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1 hour ago, parasaurolophus said:

One year ago, you would have been listening to the CDC by not wearing a mask for the flu. 

 

70 years ago, you would've been skeptical of a link between smoking and lung cancer. Science evolves.

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4 hours ago, BoltBacker said:
7 hours ago, Biff84 said:

I A recent poll of residents showed 70% are at least partial vaccinated and another 13% are trying. 

That's much different than the data I saw just a couple of days ago. It was 15% that had a single shot and under 8% that had their second vaccination shot across the US. 

 

Looks like @Biff84 is talking about a particualr retirement community, not the nation as a whole

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27 minutes ago, SoBeDad said:

70 years ago, you would've been skeptical of a link between smoking and lung cancer. Science evolves.

The science didn't evolve.  The CDC was just on the wrong side of science.

This isn't Monday morning quarterbacking.  A ton of us realized this on our own at the time, and it was posted about at length in the other (good) covid thread.

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23 hours ago, dawgtrails said:

True, but at least if you offered that up we would have something concrete to debate over, rather than your blanket assertion that places with a mask mandate had the worst of it

we know that after mask mandates covid numbers soared

now, the people fearing covid would say hey, if we didn't have masks, it'd have been 10X worse .... but the people not scared would say hey, the numbers would have been about what they are with or without masks 

22 hours ago, dawgtrails said:

There are almost 29 million confrimed cases in the US, which is about 9% of the population. Now, not every case affected someone besides themselves, but a good chunk did. Whether it was them having to quarantine and miss work, or someone in their family had to quarantine and miss work, or something as simple as them having to take a couple hours off of work to go get tested. And that is only for people who didn't get sick and have to miss a couple weeks, or had to go into the hospital, and how that affected health care workers, and others. Or the family and friends of the more than 1/2 million who have died. Or the tens or hundreds of thousands who will suffer long term health consequences.

Covid has affected nearly 100% of our population in some fashion

do you think those 29 million wasn't wearing masks ? I guarantee you many of them worse masks - and it didn't matter because its a virus

reports from many people were that they were super careful ... and still contracted the virus

and, of those 29 million, the majority was very mild symptoms, about like the flu

in perspective, H1N1 was reported 60 million confirmed and we wasn't even looking for people who were non-symptomatic 

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14 minutes ago, Stealthycat said:

now, the people fearing covid would say hey, if we didn't have masks, it'd have been 10X worse .... but the people not scared would say hey, the numbers would have been about what they are with or without masks 

And only one of these groups has a study of any kind to base their assumption on.  The other is complete wishcasting.  When faced with having a predictive model based on other situations (of a somewhat similar nature) and a complete guess, one should (IMO) go with the one that's NOT a complete guess :shrug: 

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2 hours ago, dawgtrails said:

You keep typing this and haven't even attempted to back it up with a link

do you need a link with a timeline ?

when were you required to wear a mask ? can you remember the time frame / date ? wherever you are, now look at the time line for covid spiking

most placed middle to end of 2020 were the mask mandates, and covid spikes followed the same 

sure, its likely coincidental because IMO a virus WILL run its course and it don't matter what a Govt tries to do. the masks are a feel good, a way for the community to feel safer .... but home made masks worn only in public places was never going to impact the spread of a virus. covid invaded every corner of the USA

again, some people will say "it would have been so much worse"  and that's as good a guess as the people saying " it wouldn't have mattered" .......... all we know is what happened (shut downs and mask mandates) and the number of infected and deaths soared during those months. that's not a success IMO and I don't see how anyone could say it is to be honest

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46 minutes ago, dawgtrails said:

I would take any link. Just one. Please?

 

do this ... click on this link

https://www.google.com/search?q=arkansas+graph+of+covid&rlz=1C1ONGR_enUS935US935&oq=arkansas+graph+of+covid&aqs=chrome..69i57j0i22i30.4455j1j4&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

drop down to your state

https://www.aarp.org/health/healthy-living/info-2020/states-mask-mandates-coronavirus.html

so I'm in Arkansas

Arkansas 

Statewide order: Yes

Gov. Asa Hutchinson's mask directive, in effect since July, requires Arkansans age 10 and over to wear face-coverings in public settings when unable to maintain at least 6 feet of distance from people outside their households. The current mandate is in effect until March 31, at which time Hutchinson says it will expire if the state's rates for positive COVID-19 tests or hospitalizations drop below certain levels.

 

So July is when AR mandated .... assume it took a few weeks for people to really get using them .... maybe Aug/Sept?

owhen did covid start REALLY spiking up ?

 

 

 

again, me? I think covid is a virus that will run its course, it'll kill the weak and compromised, because we're an obese country and unhealthy it affects the populace more .... and when its ran its course, herd immunity comes into play and the epidemic is over

pandemic isn't really a good word at all - but its scary for sure

 

people love to feel good nowdays ... ban plastic straws for the environment but agree to throwing billions of disposable masks away ??  lol ............ but this wearing mask to save everyone and yourself is mostly a feel good. 

 

today I went to a grocery store - I've had my mask for weeks, haven't washed it. It fits loosely. Everyone who saw me wearing my mask felt very safe - but c'mon, it wasn't helping them because (A) its just cloth and not a good mask and (B) I'm not sick but as long as they FELT safe - that mattered

 

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8 hours ago, BoltBacker said:

That's much different than the data I saw just a couple of days ago. It was 15% that had a single shot and under 8% that had their second vaccination shot across the US. 

Either way, I agree with you that it seems like a few weeks(or maybe even a couple of months) makes more sense until a much higher percentage of the population has been fully vaccinated. Seems like the finish line is in sight now, unlike the first time Abbott opened too early and it blew up in his face.

This was specifically a poll of the residents at the retirement community we’ve been working to vaccinate.

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Arizona removed all capacity restrictions. We never had a state mask mandate but I think we’re about to see a huge increase in people ignoring the county and city mandates. Yay, guess the pandemic is over with!

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8 hours ago, IvanKaramazov said:
8 hours ago, SoBeDad said:

70 years ago, you would've been skeptical of a link between smoking and lung cancer. Science evolves.

The science didn't evolve.  The CDC was just on the wrong side of science.

This isn't Monday morning quarterbacking.  A ton of us realized this on our own at the time, and it was posted about at length in the other (good) covid thread.

One of the studies cited in the CDC guidance change was actually linked in the other thread several times prior to the CDC changing guidance.

The science didnt evolve or change. 

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  • NorvilleBarnes changed the title to Gov. Greg Abbott opening TX. MS, CT & WV join.

I guess I’ve been asleep but is there now debate if we should have broad mandates to wear masks during flu season going forward?  That seems...absurd?

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1 hour ago, djmich said:

I guess I’ve been asleep but is there now debate if we should have broad mandates to wear masks during flu season going forward?  That seems...absurd?

No, that's our resident public health guy probably advocating subtly for it. Nobody else is. That particular poster is huge on public health edicts. Works in the medical field, has opinions on things communicable. That's not knocking him, that's just where that's coming from.

If we see more pandemics like this, we will be in masks. Reproducing will be really hard in the Western world. The Middle East and other less developed countries will still continue to have children, unfettered. Foreign policy will be affected by that in myriad ways. Now, if you're roped into that line of discussion, you can see how one poster can make it seem like the discussion now hinges around foreign policy, much like a public health advocate talking about masks and the flu.

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Well....oddly enough...SOMETHING dramatically lessened the seasonal flu this year. 

 

My bet? The masking and social distancing. We did it for COVID to (apparently debatable) positive effect...and it drastically reduced our flu numbers this winter. Good thing too.....we were on the verge of being over-run for a couple months there (at my hospital...I'm an ICU RN) and normal flu numbers on top of the COVID cases would have crushed us

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38 minutes ago, renesauz said:

Well....oddly enough...SOMETHING dramatically lessened the seasonal flu this year. 

 

My bet? The masking and social distancing. We did it for COVID to (apparently debatable) positive effect...and it drastically reduced our flu numbers this winter. Good thing too.....we were on the verge of being over-run for a couple months there (at my hospital...I'm an ICU RN) and normal flu numbers on top of the COVID cases would have crushed us

So you would say we "flattened the curve"?

Seems like the NPIs had the desired effect.  The question is when to taper off of these NPIs.  Did Texas set up metrics for moving between reopening stages?  Those were set up in many places in the April time frame.  They are worth revising as new data come in, knowledge is refined, and should include data on vaccination rates.

That's what it means to follow the science. 

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I do think discussing what metrics are needed to remove all restrictions is needed. I a. Going to throw out 50% of the population vaccinated, a daily new infection rate at less than .01%, and a test positivity rate of less than 2%.

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2 hours ago, renesauz said:

Well....oddly enough...SOMETHING dramatically lessened the seasonal flu this year. 

 

My bet? The masking and social distancing. We did it for COVID to (apparently debatable) positive effect...and it drastically reduced our flu numbers this winter. Good thing too.....we were on the verge of being over-run for a couple months there (at my hospital...I'm an ICU RN) and normal flu numbers on top of the COVID cases would have crushed us

Couldn't be because we've all been recluses for a year, could it?

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22 hours ago, Stealthycat said:

do this ... click on this link

https://www.google.com/search?q=arkansas+graph+of+covid&rlz=1C1ONGR_enUS935US935&oq=arkansas+graph+of+covid&aqs=chrome..69i57j0i22i30.4455j1j4&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

drop down to your state

https://www.aarp.org/health/healthy-living/info-2020/states-mask-mandates-coronavirus.html

so I'm in Arkansas

Arkansas 

Statewide order: Yes

Gov. Asa Hutchinson's mask directive, in effect since July, requires Arkansans age 10 and over to wear face-coverings in public settings when unable to maintain at least 6 feet of distance from people outside their households. The current mandate is in effect until March 31, at which time Hutchinson says it will expire if the state's rates for positive COVID-19 tests or hospitalizations drop below certain levels.

 

So July is when AR mandated .... assume it took a few weeks for people to really get using them .... maybe Aug/Sept?

owhen did covid start REALLY spiking up ?

 

 

 

again, me? I think covid is a virus that will run its course, it'll kill the weak and compromised, because we're an obese country and unhealthy it affects the populace more .... and when its ran its course, herd immunity comes into play and the epidemic is over

pandemic isn't really a good word at all - but its scary for sure

 

people love to feel good nowdays ... ban plastic straws for the environment but agree to throwing billions of disposable masks away ??  lol ............ but this wearing mask to save everyone and yourself is mostly a feel good. 

 

today I went to a grocery store - I've had my mask for weeks, haven't washed it. It fits loosely. Everyone who saw me wearing my mask felt very safe - but c'mon, it wasn't helping them because (A) its just cloth and not a good mask and (B) I'm not sick but as long as they FELT safe - that mattered

 

FoxNews

I know the topic of this FoxNews discussion was posted previously, but I recall the article (NPR) discussing the study being dismissed as biased.

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2 hours ago, bigbottom said:

I know the topic of this FoxNews discussion was posted previously, but I recall the article (NPR) discussing the study being dismissed as biased.

Not following... which was biased?  The NPR report or the original study that Fox News piece was about? Or the Fox news piece about the study?

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10 minutes ago, The Z Machine said:

Not following... which was biased?  The NPR report or the original study that Fox News piece was about? Or the Fox news piece about the study?

An NPR article discussing the study was linked in this thread and the response was that the article was biased. So I linked a FoxNews piece on the study and discussing the very same conclusions. 

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  • NorvilleBarnes changed the title to Gov. Abbott opens TX. MS, CT, WV, AZ & KS join. Now GOP opens Georgia!

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