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Mass shooting in chicago (2 Viewers)

timschochet said:
There’s been a lot of hatred against Asians lately, largely thanks to former President Trump’s ignorant and inflammatory rhetoric. So when Asians are attacked that’s the logical first thought that comes to mind. Which it may still well be, I don’t know. I’ll be glad if it’s truly not the case. 
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What proof do you have of this?  Sure there was a 'study' which showed crimes against Asians were up 150% in the 16-largerst cities.  But since when do Trump supporters live in the large cities?  Democrats get 80-90% of votes there, why do we just assume these are hate-crimes tied to Trump.  Someone actually in the MSM investigated the claims, and found 1) These were not hate crimes, just crimes.  2)  Hate crimes against Asians were actually down according to the police. 

So just another example of the media running with a narrative which affirms their bias.  At least there was someone in the media for once willing to do some checks.  

 
jon_mx said:
What proof do you have of this?  Sure there was a 'study' which showed crimes against Asians were up 150% in the 16-largerst cities.  But since when do Trump supporters live in the large cities?  Democrats get 80-90% of votes there, why do we just assume these are hate-crimes tied to Trump.  Someone actually in the MSM investigated the claims, and found 1) These were not hate crimes, just crimes.  2)  Hate crimes against Asians were actually down according to the police. 

So just another example of the media running with a narrative which affirms their bias.  At least there was someone in the media for once willing to do some checks.  
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Cars dude.  They drive into the inner city to do their white supremacy crimes while shouting MAGA!!!!!

 
timschochet said:
There’s been a lot of hatred against Asians lately, largely thanks to former President Trump’s ignorant and inflammatory rhetoric. So when Asians are attacked that’s the logical first thought that comes to mind. Which it may still well be, I don’t know. I’ll be glad if it’s truly not the case. 
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There has also been tons of hate against them since they are called white adjacent and part of the racist meritocracy. 

 
djmich said:
🤣 Tim trying to blame this on Trump.  Biden is President Tim, believe it or not, crazy people existing before Trump and after Trump...but sure twist everything to try to fit your narrative.

Article With data and links to FBI hate crime statistics

Did Trump also rile up Black supremacy driving the disproportionate share of hate crimes?
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Please don’t put words in my mouth. 
First off, neither Donald Trump nor any other public speaker is responsible for acts of hate when they are committed. Only those who carry out the actual crimes are responsible. Full stop. 

But Trump and others, both on the right and the left, have been responsible for creating an atmosphere that can serve to foster such behavior, and they should be condemned for that irregardless of their politics, whether it’s Trump or some angry leftist radical. 

 
timschochet said:
Please don’t put words in my mouth. 
First off, neither Donald Trump nor any other public speaker is responsible for acts of hate when they are committed. Only those who carry out the actual crimes are responsible. Full stop. 

But Trump and others, both on the right and the left, have been responsible for creating an atmosphere that can serve to foster such behavior, and they should be condemned for that irregardless of their politics, whether it’s Trump or some angry leftist radical. 
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I’m confused, whose words were these

  3 hours ago,  timschochet said: 

There’s been a lot of hatred against Asians lately, largely thanks to former President Trump’s ignorant and inflammatory rhetoric. So when Asians are attacked that’s the logical first thought that comes to mind.
Click to expand...

 
timschochet said:
I’m not blaming this, or any other shooting on Trump. I’m blaming some of the recent racial hatred against Asians on Trump and any other public figure who uses terms like “China Virus”. 
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The "South African Variant" really gets my blood boiling.  

 
timschochet said:
I’m not blaming this, or any other shooting on Trump. I’m blaming some of the recent racial hatred against Asians on Trump and any other public figure who uses terms like “China Virus”. 
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And I blame the hatred in this summer's BLM roots on public figures who use terms like white privilege and systemic racism. 

 
Biff84 said:
Has anyone blamed South Africa for the Coronavirus? On a near daily basis I hear someone blame all the deaths or the economic loss on the Chinese.
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You biffed it. How could the responsibility be on Africa, it clearly originated in China?  That's a false talking point when the issue being discussed is whether "China" in the name is descriminitory.  Now how do you feel about "South African Varient"?   

 
timschochet said:
But Trump and others, both on the right and the left, have been responsible for creating an atmosphere that can serve to foster such behavior, and they should be condemned for that irregardless of their politics, whether it’s Trump or some angry leftist radical. 
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I have seen lots of rhetoric that has railed against the Chinese government, but I haven't heard any that blamed Asian people.

If you have any examples please do share.  I've never believed that we can hold folks responsible for what they didn't say, even if it's imputed to "create a hostile atmosphere".  If DJT or other politicians have blamed ordinary folks for COVID and created racial hatred than hold them to the light.  If not we need to find another boogeyman.

 
Sand said:
I have seen lots of rhetoric that has railed against the Chinese government, but I haven't heard any that blamed Asian people.
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Also, the Chinese government really does suck.  And it features the funniest-looking world leader now that you-know-who is out of office.  Any and all criticism/mockery/tomfoolery directed China's way is well-earned.

 
Sand said:
I have seen lots of rhetoric that has railed against the Chinese government, but I haven't heard any that blamed Asian people.

If you have any examples please do share.  I've never believed that we can hold folks responsible for what they didn't say, even if it's imputed to "create a hostile atmosphere".  If DJT or other politicians have blamed ordinary folks for COVID and created racial hatred than hold them to the light.  If not we need to find another boogeyman.
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I posted THIS in the other thread.   In the initial part is stated:

Stop AAPI Hate, a coalition that tracks incidents of violence and harassment against Asian Americans and Pacific Islanders in the U.S., reported nearly 3,800 instances of discrimination against Asians in the past year.

Now, to be fair, it doesn't also say what the number is normally, but I do remember also seeing articles coming out around a year ago about backlash against Asian Americans as people equated them with the virus coming over into the country.  

 
KarmaPolice said:
I posted THIS in the other thread.   In the initial part is stated:

Stop AAPI Hate, a coalition that tracks incidents of violence and harassment against Asian Americans and Pacific Islanders in the U.S., reported nearly 3,800 instances of discrimination against Asians in the past year.

Now, to be fair, it doesn't also say what the number is normally, but I do remember also seeing articles coming out around a year ago about backlash against Asian Americans as people equated them with the virus coming over into the country.  
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This NBC story seems to be pretty even handed on what and how many.  Actual hate crimes are pretty rare and didn't seem to pick up during the pandemic.  But that 3,800 number (which includes a lot of other stuff) seems to be what's bandied about, though when you see that number you assume it's hate crimes because it's not adequately explained.  Reading other stories the lack of proper elucidation leaves me thinking the 3,800 number is disingenuous.

I'd also like to know what the prevalence of these "hate incidents" was prior to the pandemic.  That, coincidentally, isn't mentioned anywhere.

(i.e. the numbers and facts are being tortured to fit a narrative, it looks like.)

Some outlets have also reported almost 3,000 "hate crimes" during the pandemic. The reporting forum Stop AAPI Hate collected almost 2,800 reports of hate incidents nationwide over five months last year. But the incidents weren't necessarily hate crimes; they included less severe, yet insidious, forms of discrimination, including shunning, verbal harassment and name-calling.
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Sand said:
This NBC story seems to be pretty even handed on what and how many.  Actual hate crimes are pretty rare and didn't seem to pick up during the pandemic.  But that 3,800 number (which includes a lot of other stuff) seems to be what's bandied about, though when you see that number you assume it's hate crimes because it's not adequately explained.  Reading other stories the lack of proper elucidation leaves me thinking the 3,800 number is disingenuous.

I'd also like to know what the prevalence of these "hate incidents" was prior to the pandemic.  That, coincidentally, isn't mentioned anywhere.

(i.e. the numbers and facts are being tortured to fit a narrative, it looks like.)
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The links seems to be on the same page.   It specifically said 'discrimination' which is what your link also seems to back up.  

I get your point but not sure what outlets reported that number and equating all of them to 'hate crimes'.  

Like I said, I don't know what the number was before covid.   Also, I could imagine that a hate crime wouldn't have to be involved for people to feel threatened.   Like your link stated:

But the incidents weren't necessarily hate crimes; they included less severe, yet insidious, forms of discrimination, including shunning, verbal harassment and name-calling.

 
fields said:
It is sad, but it is just a normal day in Chicago.
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Sadly, it is.  Shootings (especially on the south side), carjackings throughout the city, a significant increase in shootings on the expressways (particularly the Eisenhower, which is two miles from my house) ...just crazy bad stuff and no real or easy or quick solution.  It's very hard to convict anyone because no one dares speak up to identify the shooters as that often leads to retaliation against the person.  

 
tri-man 47 said:
Sadly, it is.  Shootings (especially on the south side), carjackings throughout the city, a significant increase in shootings on the expressways (particularly the Eisenhower, which is two miles from my house) ...just crazy bad stuff and no real or easy or quick solution.  It's very hard to convict anyone because no one dares speak up to identify the shooters as that often leads to retaliation against the person.  
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That and some of the cops are in gangs or gang sympathizers.  Catch and release isn't much of a deterrant either.  

 
tri-man 47 said:
Sadly, it is.  Shootings (especially on the south side), carjackings throughout the city, a significant increase in shootings on the expressways (particularly the Eisenhower, which is two miles from my house) ...just crazy bad stuff and no real or easy or quick solution.  It's very hard to convict anyone because no one dares speak up to identify the shooters as that often leads to retaliation against the person.  
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Which makes it all the more glaring when compared to the response to the spa shootings.  The Democratic party completely ignores the Chicago and other cities inner city problems while jumping all over these potential political shootings.  This is how they treat a demographic that votes 80 plus percent for them.  

 
Hot Diggity Dog said:
Which makes it all the more glaring when compared to the response to the spa shootings.  The Democratic party completely ignores the Chicago and other cities inner city problems while jumping all over these potential political shootings.  This is how they treat a demographic that votes 80 plus percent for them.  
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They just blame Indiana for selling guns.  

 
jon_mx said:
What proof do you have of this?  Sure there was a 'study' which showed crimes against Asians were up 150% in the 16-largerst cities.  But since when do Trump supporters live in the large cities?  Democrats get 80-90% of votes there, why do we just assume these are hate-crimes tied to Trump.  Someone actually in the MSM investigated the claims, and found 1) These were not hate crimes, just crimes.  2)  Hate crimes against Asians were actually down according to the police. 

So just another example of the media running with a narrative which affirms their bias.  At least there was someone in the media for once willing to do some checks.  
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More stats on crime on the Asian population.  Turns out that the stories of discrimination resulting in crimes against Asians aren't accurate - the white population is substantially underrepresented in crimes against Asians; 62% of the population and commit 24% of crime on Asians.  Those outlets promoting the concept that these incidents are rooted in white supremacy are actively engaged in misinformation peddling.  Somehow I haven't heard of Facebook or Twitter shutting these outlets down, though.

Also very interesting is that Asians are 6% of the population and commit ~1% of crimes.  No wonder these cultures have thrived in the US.

 
Sand said:
More stats on crime on the Asian population.  Turns out that the stories of discrimination resulting in crimes against Asians aren't accurate - the white population is substantially underrepresented in crimes against Asians; 62% of the population and commit 24% of crime on Asians.  Those outlets promoting the concept that these incidents are rooted in white supremacy are actively engaged in misinformation peddling.  Somehow I haven't heard of Facebook or Twitter shutting these outlets down, though.

Also very interesting is that Asians are 6% of the population and commit ~1% of crimes.  No wonder these cultures have thrived in the US.
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Seems to be a perfect reverse correlation between the amount of crime a race commits vs. economic success.  

 
jon_mx said:
Seems to be a perfect reverse correlation between the amount of crime a race commits vs. economic success.  
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Completely IMO, though the data is quite strong in correlation, but it comes down to family units.  We seem to have a high correlation between close family units and success in society.  At the same time we have a high correlation between single parenthood and crime, low test grades, low graduation rates, suicides, etc., etc.  

 
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Sand said:
More stats on crime on the Asian population.  Turns out that the stories of discrimination resulting in crimes against Asians aren't accurate - the white population is substantially underrepresented in crimes against Asians; 62% of the population and commit 24% of crime on Asians.  Those outlets promoting the concept that these incidents are rooted in white supremacy are actively engaged in misinformation peddling.  Somehow I haven't heard of Facebook or Twitter shutting these outlets down, though.

Also very interesting is that Asians are 6% of the population and commit ~1% of crimes.  No wonder these cultures have thrived in the US.
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like we covered earlier- the stats you listed are different from hate crimes.   we should make sure we are discussing the same thing.  

eta: I guess the above exchange was in the CNN thread.  

 
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KarmaPolice said:
like we covered earlier- the stats you listed are different from hate crimes.   we should make sure we are discussing the same thing.  

eta: I guess the above exchange was in the CNN thread.  
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Pretty easy when you define hate crimes as crimes committed by white guys.  It is complete BS which allows liberals to be selectively outraged when crimes fit their narrative and ignore other crimes.  It all comes down we matter more than you attitude.  

 
jon_mx said:
Pretty easy when you define hate crimes as crimes committed by white guys.  It is complete BS which allows liberals to be selectively outraged when crimes fit their narrative and ignore other crimes.  It all comes down we matter more than you attitude.  
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Wtf does this? 

you guys are getting nuts with this.  hate crime has to do with intent, not the color of the skin of the person committing said crime.  

 
I guess it needs to be put in here too.   LINK

A hate crime is a traditional offense like murder, arson, or vandalism with an added element of bias. For the purposes of collecting statistics, the FBI has defined a hate crime as a “criminal offense against a person or property motivated in whole or in part by an offender’s bias against a race, religion, disability, sexual orientation, ethnicity, gender, or gender identity.” Hate itself is not a crime—and the FBI is mindful of protecting freedom of speech and other civil liberties.

Nothing about white people only.  In fact, from their 2018 stats: LINK

In 2018, race was reported for 6,266 known hate crime offenders. Of these offenders:

53.6 percent were White.

24.0 percent were Black or African American.

6.9 percent were groups made up of individuals of various races (group of multiple races).

1.3 percent were Asian.

1.0 percent were American Indian or Alaska Native.

0.3 percent (19 offenders) were Native Hawaiian or Other Pacific Islander.

12.9 percent were unknown.

I am not sure where the confusion is.  

 
KarmaPolice said:
I guess it needs to be put in here too.   LINK

A hate crime is a traditional offense like murder, arson, or vandalism with an added element of bias. For the purposes of collecting statistics, the FBI has defined a hate crime as a “criminal offense against a person or property motivated in whole or in part by an offender’s bias against a race, religion, disability, sexual orientation, ethnicity, gender, or gender identity.” Hate itself is not a crime—and the FBI is mindful of protecting freedom of speech and other civil liberties.

Nothing about white people only.  In fact, from their 2018 stats: LINK

In 2018, race was reported for 6,266 known hate crime offenders. Of these offenders:

53.6 percent were White.

24.0 percent were Black or African American.

6.9 percent were groups made up of individuals of various races (group of multiple races).

1.3 percent were Asian.

1.0 percent were American Indian or Alaska Native.

0.3 percent (19 offenders) were Native Hawaiian or Other Pacific Islander.

12.9 percent were unknown.

I am not sure where the confusion is.  
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How they get reported.  One is national news and the race is the lead of the story.  The other is not important and if it even makes the news race is not mentioned.  Plus there is a large group on the left who do not believe in the concept of reverse discrimination or racism towards whites which there are many articles on and which is reflective of how these are reported by our race-baiting propaganda machine commonly referred to as our mainstream media.  

 
parasaurolophus said:
So why isnt it labeled that way when its the other way around? 
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The stats I posted above show other races committing hate crimes, so they are coded that way.  

I assume you are asking why there aren't more articles or news headlines about hate crimes by non-white people?  We probably both have the same answer (clicks) but that not the same thing as claiming that all crimes are hate crimes or that it's only a hate crime if a white person commits it.   

One thing I didn't see when I was poking around in that sites and stats was a break down for their different types of hate crimes and what those %s are.   Maybe it's there and I didn't see it though.   

 
The whole "hate crime" thing is an interesting discussion.

First, I think tracking is good (and while I think imperfect you can materially differentiate say armed robberies vs a crime where a dude is whacked over the head while being called a slur)

But, should the penalties be different.  Is being whacked over the head and robbed less offensive than being whacked over the head and being called Kung Flu.  We're saying one is more ok than the other.  I get it, but it feels weird to me.  I'd rather just take the highest of the two and use that for sentencing.

Also, there are a lot of complaints about overcrowding in jails and that sentencing is too harsh to begin with.  Generally from the left.  But it is ok...when the crimes targeted are the right ones?  I read a lot about the LA DA not prosecuting many crimes (see his link below...where he talks about his first 100 days and none of his accomplishments are actually about prosecuting crimes).  I dunno.  I feel strongly that in general drug sentencing is overdone and agree with that positioning.  I also wouldn't campaign against hate crimes receiving harsher sentences.  But an area where I'm not sure there is consistency.

First 100 days

 
tri-man 47 said:
Sadly, it is.  Shootings (especially on the south side), carjackings throughout the city, a significant increase in shootings on the expressways (particularly the Eisenhower, which is two miles from my house) ...just crazy bad stuff and no real or easy or quick solution.  It's very hard to convict anyone because no one dares speak up to identify the shooters as that often leads to retaliation against the person.  
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Never understood the "carjackings"   I mean how long can you actually drive a car that has been jacked without getting caught? The people who do it are probably too stupid to actually steal a car the correct way but still.

 
KarmaPolice said:
The stats I posted above show other races committing hate crimes, so they are coded that way.  

I assume you are asking why there aren't more articles or news headlines about hate crimes by non-white people?  We probably both have the same answer (clicks) but that not the same thing as claiming that all crimes are hate crimes or that it's only a hate crime if a white person commits it.   

One thing I didn't see when I was poking around in that sites and stats was a break down for their different types of hate crimes and what those %s are.   Maybe it's there and I didn't see it though.   
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I am talking about an actual specific crime that just happened. The media has largely ignored it, but where it has been covered it isnt being referred to as a hate crime. 

You yourself admitted that if two white guys burned a black guy it would probably be labeled that way by the media. 

I know the definition of a hate crime. The media obviously doesnt rely on the actual definition. (Except when it is black crime, then they wait for police coding)

 
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