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Boy CNN tried to make the Atlanta shootings all about race


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17 minutes ago, parasaurolophus said:

Yes a korean publication reported that an unnamed store owner said that an unnamed person came into said store and told said store owner that the killer said that. 

Or something like that. 

I go to the footnote to that claim made in wiki and, after translating the article, dont see any mention of that witness at all. 

And can we get a political bias check on The Chosunilbo?

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19 minutes ago, tonydead said:

You soooooo want that to be true. So badly that it's sad.  Occam's Razer man.

Mass shooting so poorly executed yet this guys is suddenly so smart he hides the fact it he really just hates Asians. He could have went to the Asian market in the middle of the day, but, thought to himself, hey you know what maybe I just go to some rub and tugs and pretend I'm a sex addict. Maybe kill a couple none Asians to throw them off. 

Do I have that right?  This is how you're playing it out in your head? 

He planned this for quite a while, supposedly. Let’s say you didn’t have the statement of a mass murderer as your only piece of evidence that this wasn’t racially motivated.  What else about these shootings where he intentionally drove from one Asian massage parlor to another and 75% of his victims were Asian women is evidence that it wasn’t racially motivated?  Or are you seriously basing your opinion not on actual facts, but on a hearsay report of what a mass murderer said?

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5 minutes ago, tonydead said:

I go to the footnote to that claim made in wiki and, after translating the article, dont see any mention of that witness at all. 

And can we get a political bias check on The Chosunilbo?

My bad. Found it. Link

Quote

On the 16th (local time), at least 8 people, including 4 Koreans, were killed in a series of shootings involving massage parlors in Atlanta, Georgia, USA. As the arrested suspect is known to have said "I will kill all Asians" before the crime, the possibility of a'hate crime' that is rapidly increasing targeting Asians in the American society after the novel coronavirus infection (Corona 19) pandemic is growing.

Apparently this is the only publication that heard it. From somewhere. 

 

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26 minutes ago, -fish- said:

He planned this for quite a while, supposedly. Let’s say you didn’t have the statement of a mass murderer as your only piece of evidence that this wasn’t racially motivated.  What else about these shootings where he intentionally drove from one Asian massage parlor to another and 75% of his victims were Asian women is evidence that it wasn’t racially motivated?  Or are you seriously basing your opinion not on actual facts, but on a hearsay report of what a mass murderer said?

Bold 1. Wrong. Where did you hear that?  Link? He bought the gun just hours before. 

Bold 2. Wrong. 2/3 were brothels with women of all types. 

Bold 3. :lmao:

 

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14 minutes ago, tonydead said:

My bad. Found it. Link

Apparently this is the only publication that heard it. From somewhere. 

 

On the 17th, the Hankook Ilbo, Atlanta, quoted an employee A of the massage parlor'Gold Massage Spa' where the shooting took place, and said that the suspect at the time of the crime said that he would'kill all Asians'. It is known that Mr. A was in the store at the time of the shooting, but managed to evacuate and then conveyed the information to a nearby Korean business.

eta: link

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5 minutes ago, parasaurolophus said:

A story linked earlier in this thread had the link to the article in the chosun ilbo. It had the quote in it and their source. 

Found it. Employee A who heard it went to a nearby business and told them. The Korean news apparently got it from someone at the business. 

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2 minutes ago, parasaurolophus said:

On the 17th, the Hankook Ilbo, Atlanta, quoted an employee A of the massage parlor'Gold Massage Spa' where the shooting took place, and said that the suspect at the time of the crime said that he would'kill all Asians'. It is known that Mr. A was in the store at the time of the shooting, but managed to evacuate and then conveyed the information to a nearby Korean business.

eta: link

Ok. But the Hankkok article also footnoted is what I posted earlier. That it was "well known" that he said that. 

I think we can dismiss this bit of evidence. 

 

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The 4 women's names from Young's Massage Palor havent been released yet because they are having a hard time identifying them. 

*Speculation Alert*  Trafficking?  Shouldn't be hard to identify employees of a legitimate businesses. 

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29 minutes ago, -jb- said:

This is a really sad and messed up thread. 

It is sad, that the media and our political leaders mis-represent the facts of a tragedy like this. But its important that they get called out for it.  We wont ever solve problems like this by coming to false conclusions about the root cause. 

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Just turned on CNN.  Don Lemon going full-on racism.  Not only anti-Asian racism, but he’s also complaining that the perp was given preferential treatment by the policy because he’s white.  Look, I get that we have racism in this country, but this king of race pimping on CNN isn’t helping.  Can we just let the facts guide us?

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5 hours ago, tonydead said:

The 4 women's names from Young's Massage Palor havent been released yet because they are having a hard time identifying them. 

*Speculation Alert*  Trafficking?  Shouldn't be hard to identify employees of a legitimate businesses. 

Yeah, and all major news outlets are irresponsible for stating the obvious racial motivations of this shooting.  But this take is neutral and evidence-based.

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9 hours ago, -fish- said:

He planned this for quite a while, supposedly. Let’s say you didn’t have the statement of a mass murderer as your only piece of evidence that this wasn’t racially motivated.  What else about these shootings where he intentionally drove from one Asian massage parlor to another and 75% of his victims were Asian women is evidence that it wasn’t racially motivated?  Or are you seriously basing your opinion not on actual facts, but on a hearsay report of what a mass murderer said?

Stop this.  Quit with the "well if this, then that"

Let's go with actual facts we have so far.   You did this earlier.

Again, if he went into the parlor and started screaming I HATE ASIANS as he murdered 8 people...then I would say yes he was racist.   The what ifs are a complete waste of time.

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5 hours ago, -fish- said:

Yeah, and all major news outlets are irresponsible for stating the obvious racial motivations of this shooting.  But this take is neutral and evidence-based.

 I went out of my way with a speculation warning.  Astricts and everything.  :lmao:.   Wow man, are you feeling ok?  

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11 hours ago, -fish- said:

Sex addiction is a mental illness.  Is it better for his defense to claim he has a mental illness, or to admit to a hate crime which adds enhancements under Georgia law?

Do you think it’s a good idea to accept the statements of mass murderers, even though they contradict obvious factual evidence?

This guy is never setting foot outside a correctional facility ever again.  It doesn't make any difference from a practical standpoint whether he was motivated by racial hatred, misogyny, some weird sexual hang-up, some combination of all three, or something else entirely.

And what's up with the "obvious factual evidence" that ignores the fact that he specifically targeted sex workers?  That seems pretty relevant.

Sex workers are not lesser people who somehow get what's coming to them.  People who assault or kill them deserve to be punished.

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10 hours ago, ekbeats said:

Just turned on CNN.  Don Lemon going full-on racism.  Not only anti-Asian racism, but he’s also complaining that the perp was given preferential treatment by the policy because he’s white.  Look, I get that we have racism in this country, but this king of race pimping on CNN isn’t helping.  Can we just let the facts guide us?

Preferential treatment?  Dude will get the death penalty in GA. and rightly so.

CNN ratings are way down so take what Lemon says with a grain of salt.

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37 minutes ago, Summer Wheat said:

Preferential treatment?  Dude will get the death penalty in GA. and rightly so.

CNN ratings are way down so take what Lemon says with a grain of salt.

That always seems wise with him.

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14 hours ago, KarmaPolice said:

Are you claiming there haven't been attacks on Asian Americans in the last year?   Or that they weren't on the rise? 

Attacks on Asian Americans?  Sure.  Just like there are attacks on all kinds of people every year.  Attacks on Asian Americans due to COVID the way Tim is portraying it?  No way.

On the rise?  I don't know.  Black on black crime is on the rise too.  Do we also blame that on Covid and how it's really just racism by whitey?  

I think Tim is making a lot of assumptions and a lot of you are falling for it because, well, it fits the narrative.

"Hmmmm....somebody swore at an Asian American.  We're also in the middle of a pandemic that originated in China.  Ah Ha!  Racism due to Covid!  This is a widespread problem!"

Edited by BladeRunner
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Here is a decent article by NBC that describes his motive based on interviews with two people who lived with him at the Maverick Recovery Center.

They had to get in one sentence that doesn't jive with the rest of the article: 

Quote

The women were all of Asian descent. Hate crimes against Asian-Americans have been spiking in recent months, and Long clearly targeted Asian-American businesses in his shooting spree. 

A) All the women were not of Asian descent and B) they just happen to be of mostly Asian decent because of the nature of the businesses.

Other than that one sentence, the article does a pretty good job of telling the story of motive.

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7 minutes ago, BladeRunner said:

Attacks on Asian Americans?  Sure.  Just like there are attacks on all kinds of people every year.  Attacks on Asian Americans due to COVID the way Tim is portraying it?  No way.

On the rise?  I don't know.  Black on black crime is on the rise too.  Do we also blame that on Covid and how it's really just racism by whitey?  

I think Tim is making a lot of assumptions and a lot of you are falling for it because, well, it fits the narrative.

"Hmmmm....somebody swore at an Asian American.  We're also in the middle of a pandemic that originated in China.  Ah Ha!  Racism!"

I have read several incidents about the crimes of the last year that were directly related to covid because of what was said.   There is a difference between someone swearing at another person and someone getting physical with someone while saying its their fault cocid is here.   Not sure what the point is of denying that, except that it also then fits your narrative that there is no racism and the libs just make this up.  

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5 minutes ago, KarmaPolice said:

I have read several incidents about the crimes of the last year that were directly related to covid because of what was said.   There is a difference between someone swearing at another person and someone getting physical with someone while saying its their fault cocid is here.   Not sure what the point is of denying that, except that it also then fits your narrative that there is no racism and the libs just make this up.  

Several?  OMG!  Anyways, we've been told that anecdotes or not proof on these boards.

Seriously, it's a made up narrative by Tim and anyone else who's portraying it this way.  If it is happening at all, it's insignificant.  It's neither widespread nor is it a "pandemic of racism" the way it's being portrayed.  Good grief!

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While we are at it and on topic is it about time they crackdown on these scumbag owners of Asian Spas?  These so called Spas are hotbeds for human trafficking and prostitution where the female employees are basically sex slaves.

Anybody who enters these places are not going there to get a kink worked out of their necks.

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31 minutes ago, KarmaPolice said:

I have read several incidents about the crimes of the last year that were directly related to covid because of what was said.   There is a difference between someone swearing at another person and someone getting physical with someone while saying its their fault cocid is here.   Not sure what the point is of denying that, except that it also then fits your narrative that there is no racism and the libs just make this up.  

I don’t think anyone thinks that “there is no racism and the libs just make it up.”

I think some people think that “libs” make it up alot where it doesn’t exist.

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56 minutes ago, Cowboysfan8 said:

I don’t think anyone thinks that “there is no racism and the libs just make it up.”

I think some people think that “libs” make it up alot where it doesn’t exist.

Saying that people believe there is no racism is just dumb and a silly strawman.

There's an element of "making it up"...like if we were to use this specific example where the rush is to make it about race when the facts are questionable at best.  That's bad and about nothing other than ratings and political power.

For me, the focus should be on the bigger picture and the proportionality.  What is harmful is making small numbers in a country of 350MM into big issues for the entire population of 350M.  Like a random nutjub kills 8 people, 6 of which are Asian...and Tim says the entire Asian population in the US is living in fear.  I'm sorry but that narrative which is essentially the MSM and Left narrative just harmful to the country.    

Lest anyone think I'm inconsistent with this, here is my using the same thought process to walk another right leaning poster off the "all people are this way because of what I see on twitter or the news" ledge.

Math

Edited by djmich
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38 minutes ago, BladeRunner said:

Several?  OMG!  Anyways, we've been told that anecdotes or not proof on these boards.

Seriously, it's a made up narrative by Tim and anyone else who's portraying it this way.  If it is happening at all, it's insignificant.  It's neither widespread nor is it a "pandemic of racism" the way it's being portrayed.  Good grief!

this isn't personal anecdotes, its articles about specific incidents and reports.  

I'm not portraying it as a pandemic of racism, I was trying to provide a backdrop as to why people might have assumed that here, and why Asian Americans have said they are afraid and have come forward that way.  

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20 minutes ago, djmich said:

Saying that people believe there is no racism is just dumb and a silly strawman.

There's an element of "making it up"...like if we were to use this specific example where the rush is to make it about race when the facts are questionable at best.  That's bad about nothing other than ratings and political power.

For me, the focus should be on the bigger picture and the proportionality.  What is harmful is making small numbers in a country of 350MM into big issues for the entire population of 350M.  Like a random nutjub kills 8 people, 6 of which are Asian...and Tim says the entire Asian population in the US is living in fear.  I'm sorry but that narrative which is essentially the MSM and Left narrative just harmful to the country.    

Lest anyone think I'm inconsistent with this, here is my using the same thought process to walk another poster off the "all people are this way because of what I see on twitter or the news" ledge.

Math

Tim tends to lean on the hyperbolic side in cases like this.  

Just heard on the new this guy was a very frequent visitor to these spas and they knew him.   As a mentally disturbed person he most likely had a bad experience at one of them and snapped.

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45 minutes ago, Cowboysfan8 said:

I don’t think anyone thinks that “there is no racism and the libs just make it up.”

I think some people think that “libs” make it up alot where it doesn’t exist.

Fair.  As with most things the answer is probably closer to the middle.  Its more common than I usually see people on the right admit to, and less than I see coming from the left.   

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41 minutes ago, djmich said:

Saying that people believe there is no racism is just dumb and a silly strawman.

There's an element of "making it up"...like if we were to use this specific example where the rush is to make it about race when the facts are questionable at best.  That's bad about nothing other than ratings and political power.

For me, the focus should be on the bigger picture and the proportionality.  What is harmful is making small numbers in a country of 350MM into big issues for the entire population of 350M.  Like a random nutjub kills 8 people, 6 of which are Asian...and Tim says the entire Asian population in the US is living in fear.  I'm sorry but that narrative which is essentially the MSM and Left narrative just harmful to the country.    

Lest anyone think I'm inconsistent with this, here is my using the same thought process to walk another poster off the "all people are this way because of what I see on twitter or the news" ledge.

Math

yes, tim is a bit hyperbolic.  he also lives in an area where there is a higher % of it going on as well, so what feels like a non-isdue to some could feel common to someone living near there.  

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1 hour ago, Summer Wheat said:

While we are at it and on topic is it about time they crackdown on these scumbag owners of Asian Spas?  These so called Spas are hotbeds for human trafficking and prostitution where the female employees are basically sex slaves.

Anybody who enters these places are not going there to get a kink worked out of their necks.

Been a few crack downs here in the past couple of years (including a local restaurant being raided suspected connected to one and human trafficking.

Definitely an issue.

As to this topic...CNN and other media jumped on what they thought would be the obvious narrative and got burned and were wrong in doing so.  No real excuse for it.

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1 hour ago, Summer Wheat said:

While we are at it and on topic is it about time they crackdown on these scumbag owners of Asian Spas?  These so called Spas are hotbeds for human trafficking and prostitution where the female employees are basically sex slaves.

Anybody who enters these places are not going there to get a kink worked out of their necks.

I said the same thing when Kraft got popped. Every town around me  has these rub & tug shops and everyone looks the other way. Desirable towns , less desirable towns , same thing. 

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On 3/17/2021 at 7:31 PM, Biff84 said:

It’s too soon to determine either way. He told the police that he was on his way to Florida for additional targets. I’d be interested to find out where he was targeting there. If it’s additional Asian massage parlors, it still doesn’t prove anything. Nor does him claiming it was due to sex addition when talking to police or that people of other races were also killed.

The most likely answer is that both are true. He probably has sex addiction issues, either real or perceived from a strict Christian upbringing. But that doesn’t stop him from specifically targeting Asian women as the cause of his issues.

I just saw this thread and thought I should take a look. I haven't gotten past Page 1 so forgive me but I thought there was a lot of merit in this post and was immediately what I was thinking when I read this story briefly. The guy probably had XXX issues with online addiction to the unlimited free sites available out there...now if he was just streaming the Golden Age Era it would be one thing but he's likely into Asian of some kind online and maybe started questioned his own sexuality and went NUTS

That's it in a nutshell but there's a lot more to it than that. Millions of Americans are addicted to sex but this doesn't seem to be the first option people choose. It's a bizarre story, more people could have been killed, 8 people lost their lives which is tragic in of itself but then it also seems he picked a certain race-Asian and also killed a couple others in his way but he was targeting Asian Spas, that seems pretty factual so there might be an added hate crime here I would assume. 

Now this thread has many more pages, I have a feeling there must be more to it.  

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On 3/18/2021 at 9:02 AM, IvanKaramazov said:

This is good advice, but easier said than done.  For most of my life, CNN has been the go-to source for easily available and minimally biased news coverage.  Not that CNN has ever been completely without bias of course, but it's always been pretty reliable when compared to alternatives like Fox or MSNBC.  It was a nice resource for when you just wanted straight news, so you had your basic facts straight before wading off into various opinion/analysis outlets.  

Watching CNN die in real time has been kind of traumatic for me.  Maybe irrationally so, just because I'm of the exact right age to have grown up with CNN when it was actually innovative.  But I don't really think it's irrational.  I think it's increasingly the case that people just want to consume media that reinforces their little bubble, which makes it hard for mainstream news outlets to survive.  The few that remain -- like the national dailies -- are nearly all pay-walled.  I'm hardly the first person to notice this, but we're steadily moving away from a world where we all have a shared set of facts toward a world where stories get bent into whatever narrative best fits our tribe's worldview.  

Good post, I grew up on Ted Turner in the 80s with the Atlanta Braves because Florida didn't have MLB back then, and I can remember when CNN was a new thing but I was also really young back then but they were running news around the clock. Something that was maybe 30 minutes at night was now 24 hours. Granted at that time I would say they ran the same basic 60 Minutes of news and didn't think people were going to juts sit down and continue watching. It was a chance though to get news whenever was convenient for the viewer and not just 6:00 in the evening. 

I think CNN has been pretty bias and went over the top when Trump won, sounds like you saw something similar. 

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11 minutes ago, Ministry of Pain said:

Good post, I grew up on Ted Turner in the 80s with the Atlanta Braves because Florida didn't have MLB back then, and I can remember when CNN was a new thing but I was also really young back then but they were running news around the clock. Something that was maybe 30 minutes at night was now 24 hours. Granted at that time I would say they ran the same basic 60 Minutes of news and didn't think people were going to juts sit down and continue watching. It was a chance though to get news whenever was convenient for the viewer and not just 6:00 in the evening. 

I think CNN has been pretty bias and went over the top when Trump won, sounds like you saw something similar. 

Which news network would you like them to emulate more? 

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1 hour ago, Ministry of Pain said:

I just saw this thread and thought I should take a look. I haven't gotten past Page 1 so forgive me but I thought there was a lot of merit in this post and was immediately what I was thinking when I read this story briefly. The guy probably had XXX issues with online addiction to the unlimited free sites available out there...now if he was just streaming the Golden Age Era it would be one thing but he's likely into Asian of some kind online and maybe started questioned his own sexuality and went NUTS

That's it in a nutshell but there's a lot more to it than that. Millions of Americans are addicted to sex but this doesn't seem to be the first option people choose. It's a bizarre story, more people could have been killed, 8 people lost their lives which is tragic in of itself but then it also seems he picked a certain race-Asian and also killed a couple others in his way but he was targeting Asian Spas, that seems pretty factual so there might be an added hate crime here I would assume. 

Now this thread has many more pages, I have a feeling there must be more to it.  

2 of the 3 spas were not exclusively nor advertised as Asian.  Specifically they had International and Latin American “models”. 
 

Also, it’s reported he didn’t even own a cell phone and was living in a rehab center so I don’t think it had much to do with online stuff. 

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8 minutes ago, tonydead said:

The names of 4 victims from the spa that was an Asian massage parlor have been released and they ranged in ages 51 to 74. Maybe instead of Asian it was senior massage therapists he was targeting. 

51 is considered middle aged, not senior.

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42 minutes ago, tonydead said:

The names of 4 victims from the spa that was an Asian massage parlor have been released and they ranged in ages 51 to 74. Maybe instead of Asian it was senior massage therapists he was targeting. 

I thought it was because he was sex addict.

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2 minutes ago, supermike80 said:

Damn..Im 53..Missed the cut off.

I don't think the cut off is until at least 55, more likely 62 when people can start drawing early Social Security (but the designation is rather arbitrary). 

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5 hours ago, KarmaPolice said:

I have read several incidents about the crimes of the last year that were directly related to covid because of what was said.   There is a difference between someone swearing at another person and someone getting physical with someone while saying its their fault cocid is here.   Not sure what the point is of denying that, except that it also then fits your narrative that there is no racism and the libs just make this up.  

I think this is fair.  I don't think we should deny racially motivated crimes or actions happen, we all know they do.  I don't know what the true numbers are versus historical.  They could be up some, it could be due to the way we are tracking these things, I just don't know. 

I have a friend whose wife is Asian American and I know she is worried about all this.  I was talking with my friend about this a couple days ago when he brought it up and it was his opinion the way these things are covered makes it worse.  Not specifically this one story, but the way that our news cycle is one racial story after another.  It drives guys who were just bad people with racist attitudes decide they are going to take actions on those feelings, sure.  But most importantly, I think it can lead someone who has little to no racial bias begin to see everything through a racial lens.  Everything in our news today is covered that way.  Whether or not you view this as a racially based crime, that's the debate we are having and our news coverage is having.  How are we supposed to expect people to treat everyone equally when race is the primary issue with almost every news story?  There are times those discussions need to be had, but I think it's toxic to interject race into every story.  Take the Deshaun Watson story, everywhere I saw updates on Twitter today the comments immediately went to would this be happening if he were a white player.

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7 minutes ago, Shula-holic said:

I think this is fair.  I don't think we should deny racially motivated crimes or actions happen, we all know they do.  I don't know what the true numbers are versus historical.  They could be up some, it could be due to the way we are tracking these things, I just don't know. 

I have a friend whose wife is Asian American and I know she is worried about all this.  I was talking with my friend about this a couple days ago when he brought it up and it was his opinion the way these things are covered makes it worse.  Not specifically this one story, but the way that our news cycle is one racial story after another.  It drives guys who were just bad people with racist attitudes decide they are going to take actions on those feelings, sure.  But most importantly, I think it can lead someone who has little to no racial bias begin to see everything through a racial lens.  Everything in our news today is covered that way.  Whether or not you view this as a racially based crime, that's the debate we are having and our news coverage is having.  How are we supposed to expect people to treat everyone equally when race is the primary issue with almost every news story?  There are times those discussions need to be had, but I think it's toxic to interject race into every story.  Take the Deshaun Watson story, everywhere I saw updates on Twitter today the comments immediately went to would this be happening if he were a white player.

Good post - thanks.   

I think there is a fine line between making sure people are aware that this is/was happening, and talking about it too much, and we haven't yet come to that balance.  I honestly didn't know until recently the uptick in stats against Asian Americans - I had read a couple things at the start of this pandemic, but not much since.   So in that sense it's good to have reporting out there about why the Asian community would be reacting the way they did.  Then we have the immediate jump to that being the motivator without digging into the truth, and that is fanning the fire for sure.  Again, not sure what the answer is or how to strike that balance.  

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4 minutes ago, KarmaPolice said:

Good post - thanks.   

I think there is a fine line between making sure people are aware that this is/was happening, and talking about it too much, and we haven't yet come to that balance.  I honestly didn't know until recently the uptick in stats against Asian Americans - I had read a couple things at the start of this pandemic, but not much since.   So in that sense it's good to have reporting out there about why the Asian community would be reacting the way they did.  Then we have the immediate jump to that being the motivator without digging into the truth, and that is fanning the fire for sure.  Again, not sure what the answer is or how to strike that balance.  

I think it starts, especially because i think places like New Zealand and Australia, are doing it that we stop turning these guys into celebrity.  So much less to talk about if they aren't picking the guys personal life apart 24 hours a day. Stop naming them.

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2 hours ago, Shula-holic said:

I think this is fair.  I don't think we should deny racially motivated crimes or actions happen, we all know they do.  I don't know what the true numbers are versus historical.  They could be up some, it could be due to the way we are tracking these things, I just don't know. 

I have a friend whose wife is Asian American and I know she is worried about all this.  I was talking with my friend about this a couple days ago when he brought it up and it was his opinion the way these things are covered makes it worse.  Not specifically this one story, but the way that our news cycle is one racial story after another.  It drives guys who were just bad people with racist attitudes decide they are going to take actions on those feelings, sure.  But most importantly, I think it can lead someone who has little to no racial bias begin to see everything through a racial lens.  Everything in our news today is covered that way.  Whether or not you view this as a racially based crime, that's the debate we are having and our news coverage is having.  How are we supposed to expect people to treat everyone equally when race is the primary issue with almost every news story?  There are times those discussions need to be had, but I think it's toxic to interject race into every story.  Take the Deshaun Watson story, everywhere I saw updates on Twitter today the comments immediately went to would this be happening if he were a white player.

:goodposting:

It's an Asian hate crime - No it isn't, what makes you say that?   The Media

But, Asians are freaked out and scared about it - Why are they freaked out?   The Media

 

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