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The recall of Gavin Newsom (1 Viewer)

timschochet

Footballguy
I have no problem with recalling governors. But you’d better convince me that deliberate malfeasance was committed, and I don’t see any evidence of that here. Nor do I see incompetence. 
From what I can see, Gavin Newsom was given a series of tough choices where he had to decide between the advice of medical experts and the concerns of business. He chose the advice of medical experts. That’s a reasonable choice; if you disagree with it, vote him out the next time he is up for re-election. That’s not a cause for recall. 
I don’t even like the guy. He’s sleazy IMO. He appears to be a personal hypocrite (given his visit to the French Laundry at the height of the shutdown.) But that doesn’t justify removing him. If you disagree, please offer me a compelling argument because I’m not seeing it. 

 
I have no problem with recalling governors. But you’d better convince me that deliberate malfeasance was committed, and I don’t see any evidence of that here. Nor do I see incompetence. 
From what I can see, Gavin Newsom was given a series of tough choices where he had to decide between the advice of medical experts and the concerns of business. He chose the advice of medical experts. That’s a reasonable choice; if you disagree with it, vote him out the next time he is up for re-election. That’s not a cause for recall. 
I don’t even like the guy. He’s sleazy IMO. He appears to be a personal hypocrite (given his visit to the French Laundry at the height of the shutdown.) But that doesn’t justify removing him. If you disagree, please offer me a compelling argument because I’m not seeing it. 
Yes, actually it does.  Let's not forget that he shut down a lot of businesses except his own also.  I mean, how is he going to profit if HIS businesses shut down?

That reason alone should get him the boot.

 
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Yes, actually it does.  Let's not forget that he shut down a lot of businesses except his own also.  I mean, how is he going to profit if HIS businesses shut down?

That reason alone should get him the boot.
What do you mean “his business”? I have no idea what you’re referring to. 

 
I have no idea if the guy has done enough to justify a recall but there's no doubt that plenty of people who live in the state think so. There doesn't seem (to me) that there's been any single big thing like nursing home deaths, but rather just a lot of little things that some people have had enough of.  It will be interesting to see if A) he actually gets recalled, and B) who becomes the next Governor.

 
I have no idea if the guy has done enough to justify a recall but there's no doubt that plenty of people who live in the state think so. There doesn't seem (to me) that there's been any single big thing like nursing home deaths, but rather just a lot of little things that some people have had enough of.  It will be interesting to see if A) he actually gets recalled, and B) who becomes the next Governor.
You’re correct about public opinion here- its 50/50 and going to be close. But I really believe a large part of that is frustration over Covid restrictions in general. If I’m right about that, with things loosening up over the next couple of months a lot of the anger will die down and Newsom will survive. We’ll see. 

 
You’re correct about public opinion here- its 50/50 and going to be close. But I really believe a large part of that is frustration over Covid restrictions in general. If I’m right about that, with things loosening up over the next couple of months a lot of the anger will die down and Newsom will survive. We’ll see. 
Yeah I haven't been following THAT closely and don't have a dog in the fight. But I thought I recall seeing that's not really 50/50 "on the ground". I don't have a link but I recall seeing something like 65/35 or 60/40 in favor of keeping him if things open up some. I'd be very surprised if the recall passes.

 
Yeah I haven't been following THAT closely and don't have a dog in the fight. But I thought I recall seeing that's not really 50/50 "on the ground". I don't have a link but I recall seeing something like 65/35 or 60/40 in favor of keeping him if things open up some. I'd be very surprised if the recall passes.
Scott Walker of WI was the only governor in the history of the US to survive a gubernatorial recall election.  The odds aren't good for Newsom.

 
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I have no problem with recalling governors. But you’d better convince me that deliberate malfeasance was committed, and I don’t see any evidence of that here. Nor do I see incompetence. 
From what I can see, Gavin Newsom was given a series of tough choices where he had to decide between the advice of medical experts and the concerns of business. He chose the advice of medical experts. That’s a reasonable choice; if you disagree with it, vote him out the next time he is up for re-election. That’s not a cause for recall. 
I don’t even like the guy. He’s sleazy IMO. He appears to be a personal hypocrite (given his visit to the French Laundry at the height of the shutdown.) But that doesn’t justify removing him. If you disagree, please offer me a compelling argument because I’m not seeing it. 
Tim I originally wasn’t on board with this but as the days and weeks go by I will be voting him out via recall when/if given the opportunity. How he’s currently handling the restrictions with the tier system is an absolute disgrace.  The targets call for basically eradication of Covid before we can get a semblance of normality.   It’s flat out ruining lives at this point. 

 
But I really believe a large part of that is frustration over Covid restrictions in general. If I’m right about that, with things loosening up over the next couple of months
A “couple more months” after a year of this ruins countless businesses and families lives.  With the current sub 2% positivity rate we must been marching our way towards normalcy.   In our least restricted tier here, which means 1 case per 100,000, we still can’t open restaurants past 50%.  So if 400 people in the largest state in our country have Covid, restaurants die.  It’s so out of touch it’s mind-blowing.  

 
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Will whoever replaces him be any different? Likely not. Id rather the state save the money on a replacement special election
If it’s the Mayor from San Diego, who’s on the ballot to replace him, the tier restrictions change immediately.  That’s massive for the state.  

 
Let's put it this way:  Whoever replaces will have a mandate from the people to open up ASAP.  There is no where for them to go but up.

With Gavin in, you could actually go further down.
I get your point. But i live in Alameda County. One if the most "restricted" counties in California. And everything is basically open now. I dont see things regressing again no matter who is Governor 

 
If it’s the Mayor from San Diego, who’s on the ballot to replace him, the tier restrictions change immediately.  That’s massive for the state.  
Like i said below. I live in Alameda County. Its been super restrictive but everything in my city is open now. I dont see it closing back down no matter who is Governor. Maybe im wrong. 

 
Like i said below. I live in Alameda County. Its been super restrictive but everything in my city is open now. I dont see it closing back down no matter who is Governor. Maybe im wrong. 
No doubt I agree with that. But technically everybody’s breaking the rules/laws. And enforcement for a period of time got pretty heavy.  You shouldn’t be put as a business owner in the position of needing to break the law to pay your bills or your employees. And that doesn’t even address the customer perspective and loss of business that continues to happen because of it. 

 
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No doubt I agree with that. But technically everybody’s breaking the rules/laws. And enforcement for a period of time got pretty heavy.  You shouldn’t be put as a business owner in the position of needing to break the law to pay your bills or your employees. And that doesn’t even address the customer perspective and loss of business that continues to happen because of it. 
No doubt. And i will say there has been a big difference in how Northern CA and Southern CA have faired.  Again i dont like Newsome. But setting rules for a state this big i imagine is tough when you have massive populations acting/living differently. (North vs South)

 
No doubt. And i will say there has been a big difference in how Northern CA and Southern CA have faired.  Again i dont like Newsome. But setting rules for a state this big i imagine is tough when you have massive populations acting/living differently. (North vs South)
For sure. I’m in upper management in a company that has 26 locations in California pretty equally split between North and South.  Part of the responsibility I was handed during Covid was to be in charge of understanding and tracking each of our locations counties regulations for the company. Alameda is one of them.  Also in the beginning I was supportive of Newsom and how he handled it.  The challenge is on a scale that’s hard to fathom and I in no way envied him.  But as this is gone on and on his unwillingness to adapt and more importantly understand ,exactly your point, about how the public is actually acting and adjust accordingly is draconian. 

 
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Did we ever get an answer to this question?
i think the inference is the wine labels (founded in part by Gavin Newsom) in the PlumpJack Group, i.e. PlumpJack Estate, CADE Estate Winery, Odette Estate Winery, 13th Vineyard, were open during both the 1st and 2nd lockdowns. 

i understand Appeal To Authority** is a logical fallacy, so take with as much salt as necessary:

with the exception of one or two spots, i cannot name a single winery operation which was open and hosting guests during the first lockdown (3/15/20 - 6/9/20) or the second lockdown (12/10/20 - 1/26/21). and i would be willing to wager a substantial sum that due to their high profiles in Napa Valley, none of the PlumpJack Group properties were open at all. that would have been front-page news for media in the Bay Area akin to GovGav's trip to The French Laundry, and would have been a point of derision for ITB folks as well. it just isn't true. 

**i work in the wine businesses in Sonoma County. 

 
timschochet said:
I have no problem with recalling governors. But you’d better convince me that deliberate malfeasance was committed, and I don’t see any evidence of that here. Nor do I see incompetence. 
From what I can see, Gavin Newsom was given a series of tough choices where he had to decide between the advice of medical experts and the concerns of business. He chose the advice of medical experts. That’s a reasonable choice; if you disagree with it, vote him out the next time he is up for re-election. That’s not a cause for recall. 
I don’t even like the guy. He’s sleazy IMO. He appears to be a personal hypocrite (given his visit to the French Laundry at the height of the shutdown.) But that doesn’t justify removing him. If you disagree, please offer me a compelling argument because I’m not seeing it. 
i know i've used these before, but here's my list for compelling arguments for a recall effort: 

- Newsom was not transparent with regard to how long the fist lockdown would take place. we were told "two weeks" and then it just kept getting pushed out further and further under the guise of "following the science". the residents of CA were not going to happily be locked down until after Memorial Day 2020 and i believe the Governor and his administration knew it well in advance: they just couldn't say the words out loud without facing flat-out defiance. 

- "following the science" was Newsom's mantra from the start. however, when the second lockdown began in December he shut down the entire hospitality and personal care industries in a sweeping order. there was not, and is not, any scientific data showing that eating outdoors, tasting at a winery, brewery, or distillery, or staying in a Hotel/Resort/AirB&B/VRBO, getting your hair cut, or getting a mani/peci exacerbated the spread of C-19. this blatant disregard for "the science" is incompetence of the highest order and has had devastating consequences on the industries (businesses closed permanently, jobs lost, detriments to mental health, etc.).

- The French Laundry incident; the pinnacle of hypocrisy. in the grand scheme of things, it's minor. from an optics standpoint, it's objectively bad. worse, is that SF Mayor London Breed did the same thing literally the next day, and San Jose Mayor Sam Liccardo spent Thanksgiving with a group of people from more than three households (in violation of the Governor's directive). As Gov in CA, it's incumbent upon Newsom to publicly call out his contemporaries out and he did not. that's poor leadership.

- refusal to publicly call out sectors of the population, i.e. the 18-24 year old demographic who were not adhering to the stay-at-home orders and lockdown directives and contributing directly to the spread of C-19. his inability to acknowledge this publicly is irresponsible. 

- using ICU Bed % Capacity to determine Tier status: not only a poor metric to use in determining what Tier regions would be in, there was no transparency in how the percentages were derived and the reason given was it was too complicated for the public to understand. it was weeks before Newsom address the difference between actual beds in the hospital and "surge capacity". the lack of transparency is shameful. 

- assigning regions for the Color-Coded tiers was haphazard, e.g. SLO Co in "Southern California" and Monterey Co. in "Bay Area" 

- refusal to hold local County governments accountable by withholding funding for those who defied public health orders. 

while one of these points by itself may not warrant a recall, the body of work may do so. 

 
HomerSimpson said:
Like i said below. I live in Alameda County. Its been super restrictive but everything in my city is open now. I dont see it closing back down no matter who is Governor. Maybe im wrong. 
i don't think the political will is there if things go really wrong to call for a 3rd lockdown. if it happens, i have a feeling the people who abided the first two will just ignore a third. 

 
Quint said:
i think the inference is the wine labels (founded in part by Gavin Newsom) in the PlumpJack Group, i.e. PlumpJack Estate, CADE Estate Winery, Odette Estate Winery, 13th Vineyard, were open during both the 1st and 2nd lockdowns. 

i understand Appeal To Authority** is a logical fallacy, so take with as much salt as necessary:

with the exception of one or two spots, i cannot name a single winery operation which was open and hosting guests during the first lockdown (3/15/20 - 6/9/20) or the second lockdown (12/10/20 - 1/26/21). and i would be willing to wager a substantial sum that due to their high profiles in Napa Valley, none of the PlumpJack Group properties were open at all. that would have been front-page news for media in the Bay Area akin to GovGav's trip to The French Laundry, and would have been a point of derision for ITB folks as well. it just isn't true. 

**i work in the wine businesses in Sonoma County. 
http://sjvsun.com/california/sour-grapes-emerge-as-most-calif-wineries-close-while-newsoms-winery-remains-open/

@The General and @Quint : His wineries, in fact, did stay open as he ordered everyone else's to close.

 
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You and Quint are sitting the same thing differently.

Quint - When Napa county wineries were closed, Newsom’s were closed. True.

BR/the article - When Southern California wineries were closed, Napa county wineries were open. Also true. 
 

Temecula (mentioned in the article) and Napa counties are about 350 miles apart. One county was spiking, the other wasn’t. 

 
California should be 3 states

Texas should be 3 states

Florida should be 2 states

New York should be 2 states

 
- refusal to publicly call out sectors of the population, i.e. the 18-24 year old demographic who were not adhering to the stay-at-home orders and lockdown directives and contributing directly to the spread of C-19. his inability to acknowledge this publicly is irresponsible. 
This one seems odd to me. Are you saying he should have been more strict?

 
This one seems odd to me. Are you saying he should have been more strict?
Yes. We had 18-24 year olds out and about. Plus, we had local authorities who would not enforce the statewide health edict. What I think Quint was saying was that he should have withheld funding from the offending areas.

I don't know if I agree with that, but I do not support this recall at all. I don't trust the GOP in the state to do right by its citizens yet. There was a lot of malfeasance by the GOP in the last elections (putting up fake ballot boxes around Orange County) and in the handling of the science of COVID. I ardently support the Governor right now. We're getting vaccines rolled out and we're well on our way to being up and running again. It does suck for people in retail, but that's the problem with COVID, not any man.

 
Yes. We had 18-24 year olds out and about. Plus, we had local authorities who would not enforce the statewide health edict. What I think Quint was saying was that he should have withheld funding from the offending areas.

I don't know if I agree with that, but I do not support this recall at all. I don't trust the GOP in the state to do right by its citizens yet. There was a lot of malfeasance by the GOP in the last elections (putting up fake ballot boxes around Orange County) and in the handling of the science of COVID. I ardently support the Governor right now. We're getting vaccines rolled out and we're well on our way to being up and running again. It does suck for people in retail, but that's the problem with COVID, not any man.
You think if the recall is successful a Republican will become Governor?

 
He's a hypocrite for the French Laundry, but I don't really see anything wrong with the shutdowns. 

March 2020 lockdown. Covid new, unknown, rising.

Summer 2020 to November 2020 people could dine indoors. Everything but schools and large gatherings was okay. Life was pretty normal except for masks.

November 2020 went on strict lockdown again after Thanksgiving. My hospital was super busy and near capacity from November to January 2021. Totally justified. 

Now we're opening back up. Everything seemed reasonable to me.

 
California should be 3 states

Texas should be 3 states

Florida should be 2 states

New York should be 2 states
The District of Columbia with a population of 5.3 million should be one state. ( There is really no reason they aren’t given statehood except that Republicans don’t want to see two more Democrat Senators)

 
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for clarity, and from the article from KMPH article linked within the SJV Sun article: 

"FRESNO, Calif. — Gov. Gavin Newsom ordered certain businesses across 19 counties in California to scale down their operations Wednesday, in response to the growing daily number of novel coronavirus cases (COVID-19) in recent weeks. Those counties included Fresno, Kern, Kings, Merced and Tulare in the Central Valley.

The business affected included restaurants, wineries and tasting rooms, movie theaters, family entertainment centers, zoos and museums, cardrooms, and bars. Each of those businesses is allowed to stay open and seat people outside, but people are not allowed to do business inside the establishments."

the key is the bold: wineries, for example, were allowed to remain open as long as they complied with the Outdoor Only directive. the wineries who are part of the PlumpJack Group did remain open, and complied with the Outdoor Only orders. this was also back in the days where CA had Reopening Phases and Counties were responsible for issuing variances for businesses deemed "high risk," which superseded the State's directives. by July 2020 most of CA was in Phase 3 (most businesses allowed to reopen with indoor accommodations), however there was also a State Watchlist which required a County close "high risk" businesses, regardless if a variance had been issued, if it was on the list for three consecutive days. many Counties, including Napa, made this watchlist and required businesses to close or move to Outdoor Only processes. 

 
This one seems odd to me. Are you saying he should have been more strict?
i'm saying that based on statistics at the time, the demographic with the highest C-19 positivity rate was 18-24. people were having parties, not staying at home, and not paying attention to the orders given by the State. as a practical matter, this should have been handled at the local (i.e. City/County) level. that said, it is incumbent upon Newsom to recognize this and make plain, public statements acknowledging this and calling for the destructive behavior to stop. he did not. 

 
i'm saying that based on statistics at the time, the demographic with the highest C-19 positivity rate was 18-24. people were having parties, not staying at home, and not paying attention to the orders given by the State. as a practical matter, this should have been handled at the local (i.e. City/County) level. that said, it is incumbent upon Newsom to recognize this and make plain, public statements acknowledging this and calling for the destructive behavior to stop. he did not. 
Kids at  that age don’t care, they just want to live their life.  

 
So I’ve read the arguments made so far in this thread. @dkp993 and @Quint made the strongest ones, but personally I’m still not convinced. 
Putting aside his personal hypocrisy (which is awful, don’t get me wrong, but not a good reason for recall), every step Newsom has taken in this situation was a matter of policy and at the advice of experts. That’s my problem: he listened to the experts and some things went wrong. If he had ignored the experts and some things went wrong, there would be a better case, though ultimately I still wouldn’t be for it unless you can prove incompetence or corruption. 
I was opposed to the recall of Scott Walker for much the same reason. I didn’t like Walker and didn’t approve of his actions though I don’t live in Wisconsin. But he was being recalled for matters of policy. To me that’s just not enough. If you don’t like somebody’s policies then vote for somebody else next time around. 

 
So I’ve read the arguments made so far in this thread. @dkp993 and @Quint made the strongest ones, but personally I’m still not convinced. 
Putting aside his personal hypocrisy (which is awful, don’t get me wrong, but not a good reason for recall), every step Newsom has taken in this situation was a matter of policy and at the advice of experts. That’s my problem: he listened to the experts and some things went wrong. If he had ignored the experts and some things went wrong, there would be a better case, though ultimately I still wouldn’t be for it unless you can prove incompetence or corruption. 
I was opposed to the recall of Scott Walker for much the same reason. I didn’t like Walker and didn’t approve of his actions though I don’t live in Wisconsin. But he was being recalled for matters of policy. To me that’s just not enough. If you don’t like somebody’s policies then vote for somebody else next time around. 
I disagree that this is just “policies”.  This is far outside the scope of disagreements on taxes or prisoners voting rights.  He’s continuing to use temporary executive powers to apply restrictions on industries yet the data shows it’s not working any better.  For example... The lack of understanding that he hasn’t stopped gatherings (weddings, birthday parties, etc etc) all he’s done is push them underground.  Instead of them being done as safely as possible via businesses and safety guidelines there happening in backyards or BnB’s with no safety guidelines in place.  He knows this is happening because I’ve been on the phone with Dr Gahly and his people and they acknowledge as much.  Yet here he is with his hands over his eyes and ears acting as if the problem doesn’t exist.  Meanwhile 1000’s of businesses and their employees suffer.  It’s willful ignorance and it’s inexcusable.  

 
Let's not forget that the recall and referendum ballots in California were instituted at the hands of progressives. The Lincoln-Roosevelt party instituted the changes as part of sweeping movements to institute direct democracy reforms to the California ballot, and succeeded. Following the success of this would come many other direct democracy reforms from progressives, including the 17th Amendment, which provided for the direct representation of Senators.

So tim can put that in his hat. And a quick read of the referendum history shows how confusing it is to vote on these matters. Let's put it this way: My family is pull of people with reasonable firepower in their head. If they can't figure out who an initiative is benefiting and why, the State of California has a real problem on their hands. The initiatives, which are often well-funded, tend to veer towards either increasing state taxes -- the government never runs out of funds to seek new sources to fund its pet projects -- or private business interest, both things which are bad for the state, in my opinion.

 
So I’ve read the arguments made so far in this thread. @dkp993 and @Quint made the strongest ones, but personally I’m still not convinced. 
Putting aside his personal hypocrisy (which is awful, don’t get me wrong, but not a good reason for recall), every step Newsom has taken in this situation was a matter of policy and at the advice of experts. That’s my problem: he listened to the experts and some things went wrong. If he had ignored the experts and some things went wrong, there would be a better case, though ultimately I still wouldn’t be for it unless you can prove incompetence or corruption. 
I was opposed to the recall of Scott Walker for much the same reason. I didn’t like Walker and didn’t approve of his actions though I don’t live in Wisconsin. But he was being recalled for matters of policy. To me that’s just not enough. If you don’t like somebody’s policies then vote for somebody else next time around. 
if it was Newsom's policy for state legislators and local officials to find out about the 2nd CA reopening in January via press release, i.e. when the public did, i'd say that's poor communication regarding a significant change for the State. further, Newsom's reopening order included a "four week ICU projection" as the standard by which the decision was made. why was this policy never stated publicity before January 2021?  the optics here are bad and it looks from the outside like he's making arbitrary decisions. 

again, it's not necessarily "one thing" which validates a recall effort. when all of these things are combined however, a case can be made for poor leadership and valid recall agenda. 

 
Just a side note on Newsom's personal hypocrisy:  Beyond the standard "Do as I say, not as I do" offense, it also betrayed the fact that Newton and the health officials didn't truly believe their own warnings. They all clearly demonstrated that the risks are minimal and individuals should make those decisions for themselves. It wasn't JUST the hypocrisy of the event, which was repeated among many Dem leaders, but the continued enforcement of the policies for reasons he obviously didn't believe.

 
Just a side note on Newsom's personal hypocrisy:  Beyond the standard "Do as I say, not as I do" offense, it also betrayed the fact that Newton and the health officials didn't truly believe their own warnings. They all clearly demonstrated that the risks are minimal and individuals should make those decisions for themselves. It wasn't JUST the hypocrisy of the event, which was repeated among many Dem leaders, but the continued enforcement of the policies for reasons he obviously didn't believe.
In all fairness hypocrisy is not the exclusive domain of the DEM’s. 

 
I disagree that this is just “policies”.  This is far outside the scope of disagreements on taxes or prisoners voting rights.  He’s continuing to use temporary executive powers to apply restrictions on industries yet the data shows it’s not working any better.  For example... The lack of understanding that he hasn’t stopped gatherings (weddings, birthday parties, etc etc) all he’s done is push them underground.  Instead of them being done as safely as possible via businesses and safety guidelines there happening in backyards or BnB’s with no safety guidelines in place.  He knows this is happening because I’ve been on the phone with Dr Gahly and his people and they acknowledge as much.  Yet here he is with his hands over his eyes and ears acting as if the problem doesn’t exist.  Meanwhile 1000’s of businesses and their employees suffer.  It’s willful ignorance and it’s inexcusable.  
Sounds like Michigan.

 
You think if the recall is successful a Republican will become Governor?
Are there any Democrats who've put their hat into the ring?  I haven't heard of any.

Pure wishlist, but I hope Chamath puts his name into the hat and gets the office.  It would be refreshing to see a sane governor there.

Sounds like Michigan.
She richly deserves the recall.  It would be fitting to see Newsom, Whitmer, and Cuomo all tossed out on their asses for their handling of COVID.

 

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