KarmaPolice
Footballguy
Yeah, I am for that as well. I am not excited about fences, armed guards, and police patrolling our schools.
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Mass Shootings Thread (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter squistion
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parrot
Footballguy
KarmaPolice
Footballguy
I am all for implementing devices that shut down phones in the car.
Here's the difference, and I know you guys don't agree. I realize there are 100s of other cars driving at high speeds when I am on the highway. That is part of the inherent danger of driving. The difference is, it shouldn't be part of accepted reality that a dozen kids can be shot while at school or a a bunch of people get killed picking out fruit at the grocery store.
Stealthycat
Footballguy
a school, a grocery store, a theatre, a sporting event, a concert, parade, .......... there are 2 things mass shooters look for IMO - a large gathering of people that have poor security/defenses
its not those places that are the problem - its the 10-15 or 20 wackos every year that wants to be hurt others
the accepted reality of life is that there are evil people trying to hurt others
I don't think it should be accepted that women have to fear being raped on campuses when they're not allowed to carry a concealed firearm for self defense
I don't think it should be accepted that people like Ahmad Al Aliwi Al-Issa will spend millions of taxpayer dollars being kept alive over the next 30-40 years after killing people like he did.
Stealthycat
Footballguy
if only we had gun laws on age limits, automatic weapons, carrying into places not allowed or - maybe a law don't shoot other people ?
man if we just has those laws .....
Dickies
Footballguy
We're basically past the point of no return with guns. We've let the problem go on way too long A non-insignificant portion of our population worship guns like they are some deity. It amazes me that with all the issues in this country that need to be fixed, and the pervasive gun violence that is unique to us, that we have single issue voters who purely vote because of guns.... and it's to preserve the status quo of all things.
Stealthycat
Footballguy
what problem ?
I'm serious .......... why is inanimate objects a "problem" ?
if you mean VIOLENCE is a problem - you'll have me in agreement
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KarmaPolice
Footballguy
both are a problem, and that's what many say. this isn't an either/or situation.
try to focus on the reasons why someone would decide to resort to this, and focus on the objects that allow the person to carry out their goal with ease.
sho nuff
Footballguy
Yet...with guns...we see the opposite at times. TN as an example passing a permitless carry law. So cool...now don't even need a permit to carry a handgun in TN (yes...other states have such laws as well).
Dickies
Footballguy
Right. I don't think I've ever come across someone arguing in favor of more gun control also claiming that mental health problems are a non-issue.
Stealthycat
Footballguy
Stealthycat
Footballguy
KarmaPolice
Footballguy
KarmaPolice
Footballguy
KarmaPolice
Footballguy
..and completely skip over the fact that these people use these objects for the same reason he chooses them for hunting and defense. they are a lot more effective for killing things and killing things at a distance.
-fish-
Footballguy
We're screwed. Seriously, if extraterrestrials came to the US and said they could end all hunger and disease forever in exchange for banning guns, gun owners would call them liberal gun grabbers and shoot them with AR-15s.
parasaurolophus
Footballguy
Aren't there other first world countries that have rates of mass shootings on par with us?
KarmaPolice
Footballguy
My understanding is that we rank lower than a bunch if you do stats per capita, but we lead in the overall number.
UncleZen
Footballguy
parasaurolophus
Footballguy
KarmaPolice
Footballguy
GordonGekko
Footballguy
VIDEO: Twilight Zone - A Small Talent For War •Jan 4, 2009
When an alien visitor tells delegates at the United Nations that humanity will be exterminated because it has "a small talent for war," the countries of the world struggle to forge a disarmament treaty before the visitor's deadline.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fbT1fCHOjfI
********
You've somehow both simultaneously developed a movie plot that would make no money at the box office and created a Pro Gun argument at the same time, while attempting to denounce gun owners.
Fascinating. Usually that level of self inflicted irony only happens in marriages past the four year mark.
dkp993
Footballguy
Terminalxylem
Footballguy
As an ex-commuter cyclist, I’d love it if cell phones were disabled while driving. Any way we can get that tacked on to the gun control legislation?Summer Wheat said:
KarmaPolice
Footballguy
Deaths? No, it's not nearly that high of a percentage.
From what I read HERE, using the definition of four or more victims there were 614 shootings with 446 deaths and 2515 injuries.
Just gun violence deaths was about 19,400, so 2%-3%? But you asked what % of violent crime and not sure where to pull that from.
GordonGekko
Footballguy
KarmaPolice said:
Some of the standard arguments for having a police officer regularly posted at a public school
- If there are regular calls for service at school X on a daily basis and the volume is high enough, it becomes logistically practical to have an officer already there. This reduces the pressure on patrols in the area and allows them to focus their attention elsewhere
- There's some practicality in having one officer or a small group of officers who can be intimately aware of specifics of the school, the administration, the teachers and key areas of conflict. This gives greater context to the decision making possible and problem solving
- Shifting the budgetary concerns onto the school districts allows a department to potentially hire another officer within the law enforcement agencies existing budget. That might be another officer to have on patrol, for investigations, cyber crime, etc, etc.
- Active deterrent against threats to the school. No one knows the outcome, but if you plan on shooting up a school and you've cased the place, you can expect a gunfight.
Obviously some school resource police officers acquit themselves and their departments well and some don't. And it's not a secret many schools are liberal left leaning and the Defund The Police movement has taken sway in the current political narrative.
I can see the argument against non sworn/non law enforcement armed guards or non armed civilian security, in so much as they are basically powerless.
I believe there is a middle ground though, retired officers, working in non uniform but armed, who still regularly qualify and maintain a CCW, this could be a 2nd career, a lighter one, where they are not paid at the same rate as officers, but carry that training and experience plus an existing relationship with the local police department.
There are going to be some "Defund The Police" folks everywhere. My take is simple. If someone feels that way and wants to vote that way, fine. What you paid in taxes all your life, pro rated and proportioned, that went to law enforcement, will be refunded to you. You will placed on a Non Call list and if you ever want to call for the police again, they will not come to your aid. Home invasion and the threat is still there? You are on your own. Domestic abuse and your wife is hitting you with a frying pan? On your own. Get cornered by the Sisters from Shawshank Redemption and they sodomize you? You are on your own. My mentor taught me this very young - If people don't like what they are getting from you, give them nothing, see how the #### they like that instead.
I don't have a problem with The Squad's Ayanna Pressley and Rashida Tlaib deciding they want to Defund The Police in their areas. That's their personal political platform and they have a right to believe that and say that. I do have a problem with them demanding they get full time round the clock personal protection from the police, from our tax dollars, when they regularly get death threats as they actively say inciting things all the time in the mass media and daily media cycle.
In keeping with that, anyone who doesn't want that regular police officer in your school and you openly lobby for that, and if an active shooter shows up and slaughters everyone inside, including your kids, then what is your right to speak up about it? What is your right to console another grieving parent? What is your right to complain about what law enforcement should have done to protect your kids? Maybe that single officer would not have stood a chance alone and the body count would be the same plus one, but what if that's not the case? What if someone there could have made a difference? You get to live with that question. You get to live with that question in silence.
unckeyherb
Footballguy
So per capita we have more guns than anyone but also rank lower than a number of countries in mass shootings. Just want to make sure I'm reading the numbers correctly.
KarmaPolice
Footballguy
that's my understanding.
I also haven't done a ton of digging into the types of mass shootings other countries deal with.
unckeyherb
Footballguy
Got it. So when people say we are the only first world country dealing with this problem its really disingenuous. agree?
unckeyherb
Footballguy
We shouldn't have to do this and of course we don't have to do it. Its a completely non-sensical exercise that does more emotional and psychological damage than mitigate the infinitesimally low risk of a school shooting. I've seen estimates of the chances of a student being killed by a gun, on any given day, in school range from 1 in 100,000,000 to 614,000,000.KarmaPolice said:
It is far lower than almost any other life threatening risk a kid faces, including traveling to and from school, contracting a deadly disease while in school or suffering a life-threatening injury playing sports.
I get that we often react to risk based on fear and emotion rather than examining statistical data-not going in the ocean for fear of being eaten by sharks is a good example of this.
KarmaPolice
Footballguy
I will give you a tentative yes, and expand more when I get home. my thoughts have to do with the 2nd sentence in my post you quoted.
Stealthycat
Footballguy
I've yet to see a good answerKarmaPolice said:
Today, in the USA ..... you and I can agree there are 400 million guns and likely many more. We can also agree there are probably 15 million AR15 platform guns and another 30 million guns the zealots would call "assaulting" (whatever that means)
Today - how many of the above guns were used incorrectly ?
What % ?
And then how many of the people using those guns incorrectly was illegal doing so ?
And tell me why again the item is the problem ?
Stealthycat
Footballguy
what do you lie saying I'm lying? to fit your idea's and to keep telling yourself what you believe is true ?
I clearly showed you with a link that in fact, gun bans would take my son's turkey gun
why won't you acknowledge that post?
Stealthycat
Footballguy
sure, people can misuse anything
are you lobbying to ban/heavily restrict everything that people can use incorrectly? why would you do that vs focusing on the very few people who want to do those things ?
what does "at a distance" mean ?
-fish-
Footballguy
Why would it matter? Are we supposed to believe that different violent crimes can’t have different and multiple solutions? Some people would like to stop mass shootings. Deflecting does not address the problem.
-fish-
Footballguy
No restriction has ever included confiscation. It is pointless to discuss anything with you when you lie in nearly every post. Stop replying to me.
Stealthycat
Footballguy
what first world countries don't suffer murderers and mass shootings and criminals ? can you show me ? and in those countries, are the people free?
Japan leads the world in murder rates and yet, they have mass murders with most happening in the last 20 years
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_massacres_in_Japan
Stealthycat
Footballguy
just so we are clear - my son's semi-auto shotgun with a pistol grip and adjustable stock IS LEGAL in California right? We can go there and hunt and be legal, right ?
the answer of course is no - that gun is BANNED in CA and if I had it there and was caught I'd be charged. And if Gifford's got their way, Democrats got there way, and pass similar in every states voila!! that gun would be illegal everywhere
banned - illegal - not legal to use
https://giffords.org/lawcenter/state-laws/assault-weapons-in-california/
A semiautomatic shotgun that has both a folding or telescoping stock, and a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon, thumbhole stock, or vertical handgrip;
So you see -fish- ...... you can crab around and call people names, but when I post links and facts, what are you to do with that? you know the agenda don't you ?
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Insoxicated
There are likely more than 20 Million AR-15 platform rifles.
When you add in AK and other magazine fed, semiautomatic sporting rifle variants, you're likely closer to 50 Million rifles of that type.
-fish-
Footballguy
Would anyone take his gun or are you lying about that? There are plenty of places where states or private businesses do not allow some or all guns. That does not mean they have taken your gun. I hope someday your son’s gun will only be allowed on private property with permission or on government land with a hunting license, and it will be a felony everywhere else. But since he just needs it to hunt turkey, it shouldn’t bother him one bit.
KarmaPolice
Footballguy
Honestly, this is my impulse too. Nobody can keep up with barrage of posts of just asking the same questions. Not surprising that he almost has doubled up the next posters for # of posts in a gun thread.
KarmaPolice
Footballguy
Sorry, I was on my phone before. Not that much of a longer explanation, but I didn't feel like tapping away on my phone keyboard.
Like I said above, I haven't looked a ton into what other countries are dealing with, but I suspect that each has their own slightly different shootings and reasons for them. We are pretty much isolated and don't have enemies around us. If those charts are just a blank "4 or more people killed with a gun" - does that include fights over territory, cartels, religious groups, etc.. those are things that we don't deal with. Basically our mass shootings are inner city/gang and schoo/theater/concert type of shootings.
So, my hesitation on your question was that I believe when a lot of people start talking about mass shootings, they are thinking about incidents like Atlanta and Colorado, not weekly gang shootings. Are other countries dealing with those types of shootings? That I don't know the stats on. So, statistically no - we aren't the only ones dealing with mass shootings. But I don't know how common it is for other countries to encounter what we did last week.
KarmaPolice
Footballguy
Yep, this is one that I battle with. It's that CYA thing - what if something happens and we didn't have a plan in place or were prepared? I get that impulse, but I also think it's pretty messed up that young kids are doing active shooter drills and told to throw things at a person with a gun. IMO a similar thing with armed guards at a school - that gives the feeling that there is a daily threat of something happening. Again, not saying I have a solution, I just really don't like those things in our schools.
unckeyherb
Footballguy
Putting kids through that to mitigate getting sued later is ####ty IMO.
and regarding security, at my public high school there were always fights involving groups of kids and there was always security on property to deal with it. It signals that there is at least some tacit guard against utter chaos. Security does not necessarily give a feeling of a daily threat of a shooting happening, it gives a feeling that there is a level of protection from anything including bullying and or getting jumped on your way to class.
Running active shooter drills ONLY suggests that they are at a daily risk of a shooter coming. It’s borderline criminal to inflict these kids with that kind of fear day in and day out when it is demonstrably false.
dkp993
Footballguy
I agree and absolutely hate it, but how is it any different then kids in the 60’s doing Nuclear bomb drills or me as a kid in California doing earthquake drills?
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