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Mass Shootings Thread


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43 minutes ago, growlers said:

https://www.lvmpd.com/en-us/Documents/1-October-FIT-Criminal-Investigative-Report-FINAL_080318.pdf

 

Of course I am taking the most horrific example, it is a thread about mass shootings.  Should we leave this one out for some reason?

The link above answers all your "unknowable" questions about the type of guns he used.     He didn't use a turkey gun.   You can even masturbate to the pictures of the guns if you would like.

If he didn't have access to these guns he couldn't have killed so many people.    It is as simple as that.   If we allowed rocket launchers to be sold I have no doubt he would have successfully used those to blow up the jet fuel tankers instead of unsuccessfully shooting them with his AR-15 to cause more carnage.

unpossible.   guns are no different than rocks or any other inanimate object. 

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49 minutes ago, growlers said:

https://www.lvmpd.com/en-us/Documents/1-October-FIT-Criminal-Investigative-Report-FINAL_080318.pdf

 

Of course I am taking the most horrific example, it is a thread about mass shootings.  Should we leave this one out for some reason?

The link above answers all your "unknowable" questions about the type of guns he used.     He didn't use a turkey gun.   You can even masturbate to the pictures of the guns if you would like.

If he didn't have access to these guns he couldn't have killed so many people.    It is as simple as that.   If we allowed rocket launchers to be sold I have no doubt he would have successfully used those to blow up the jet fuel tankers instead of unsuccessfully shooting them with his AR-15 to cause more carnage.

Can you explain to me what "semi-automatic" means?  Bear with me, because I'm on to something here.

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5 minutes ago, -fish- said:

unpossible.   guns are no different than rocks or any other inanimate object. 

Hyperbole and drama aren't going to win you converts.  That's a gross exaggeration which you know, of course.

You either want an honest discussion, or you don't.  Which is it?

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7 minutes ago, BladeRunner said:

Hyperbole and drama aren't going to win you converts.  That's a gross exaggeration which you know, of course.

You either want an honest discussion, or you don't.  Which is it?

SC has made this claim dozens of times.   He claims a gun is nothing more than a tool, and if guns were taken away there would be an equal amount of mass killings with knives or baseball bats.

Sorry, bud.  You're stuck with the guy.

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2 hours ago, Stealthycat said:

you count the drive by's at a high school football game as a school shooting ?

the numbers are distorted on purpose - research it

Nope. I'm sure all those drive bys are really skewing the plummeting numbers in school shootings

They aren't even counting misfires or people that were stopped.   I don't know anything about this site but looks reasonable to me 

https://www.security.org/blog/a-timeline-of-school-shootings-since-columbine/

And I'm a gun supporter and think guns are way out of control.....

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30 minutes ago, -fish- said:

SC has made this claim dozens of times.   He claims a gun is nothing more than a tool, and if guns were taken away there would be an equal amount of mass killings with knives or baseball bats.

Sorry, bud.  You're stuck with the guy.

If he truly believes that, it's pretty concerning the lack of respect that he seems to have for the guns he loves so much.   

 

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31 minutes ago, -fish- said:

SC has made this claim dozens of times.   He claims a gun is nothing more than a tool, and if guns were taken away there would be an equal amount of mass killings with knives or baseball bats.

Sorry, bud.  You're stuck with the guy.

Hey, @Stealthycat is the guy you want on your side.  

As far as killings go, I agree in general that if people don't have guns they would find other things to kill people with.  Y'know, like they do in England with the massive amount of knife attacks.

And a gun IS a tool like anything else.  People kill people, guns don't kill people.

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3 minutes ago, KarmaPolice said:

If he truly believes that, it's pretty concerning the lack of respect that he seems to have for the guns he loves so much.   

 

Yes, he's given a couple examples of being irresponsible, including keeping a loaded gun in an unlocked glove compartment with minors in a car.  

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11 minutes ago, BladeRunner said:

Hey, @Stealthycat is the guy you want on your side.  

As far as killings go, I agree in general that if people don't have guns they would find other things to kill people with.  Y'know, like they do in England with the massive amount of knife attacks.

And a gun IS a tool like anything else.  People kill people, guns don't kill people.

 I generally want everyone on my side.  Even crazy people, if they're on your side they're not against you.  🤷‍♂️   *(and I am absolutely not calling SC crazy so please don't conflate the 2.  No insults being hurdled here)

54 minutes ago, BladeRunner said:

You either want an honest discussion, or you don't.  Which is it?

You say this but if you can't be honest about how much easier it is to kill large groups of people quickly with and AR vs. a knife there's no "honest" conversation going on here.

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2 minutes ago, dkp993 said:

 I generally want everyone on my side.  Even crazy people, if they're on your side they're not against you.  🤷‍♂️   *(and I am absolutely not calling SC crazy so please don't conflate the 2.  No insults being hurdled here)

You say this but if you can be honest about how much easier it is to kill large groups of people quickly with and AR vs. a knife there's no "honest" conversation going on here.

THAT is what I keep asking people and ZERO people are responding because I'm pretty sure they know where it's going to go.

I'm asking people if they know what "semi-automatic" means.   Can you tell me?  This is the point to the WHOLE "OMG!!! AR-15!!" drama we're getting.

I agree you can kill more people with a gun than with a knife.  There is no argument there.  But people will still die by other means then.

Edited by BladeRunner
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8 minutes ago, BladeRunner said:

Hey, @Stealthycat is the guy you want on your side.  

As far as killings go, I agree in general that if people don't have guns they would find other things to kill people with.  Y'know, like they do in England with the massive amount of knife attacks.

And a gun IS a tool like anything else.  People kill people, guns don't kill people.

Link

The total number of homicides in England and Wales was up 2% in 2019 to 670. This figure includes the deaths of 39 people found in the back of a lorry in Essex.

 

I am for sure not downplaying 670 people losing their lives, but you don't think most people would be happy to exchange stats with England?  All things being equal, I am guessing a majority of people would rather have somebody come into mall or school with a knife and ill intentions vs. guns.   

Guns don't kill people, but they sure make it easier to do so than a knife and a hammer.   I am guessing that's why you don't hunt and protect your family with a knife or a hammer.  

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2 minutes ago, BladeRunner said:

THAT is what I keep asking people and ZERO people are responding because I'm pretty sure they know where it's going to go.

I'm asking people if they know what "semi-automatic" means.   Can you tell me?  This is the point to the WHOLE "OMG!!! AR-15!!" drama we're getting.

I agree you can kill more people with a gun than with a knife.  There is no argument there.  But people will still die by other means then.

 Correct.  Nobody is claiming deaths will go to zero, but even you seem to be admitting that they will decrease.  

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1 minute ago, KarmaPolice said:

Link

The total number of homicides in England and Wales was up 2% in 2019 to 670. This figure includes the deaths of 39 people found in the back of a lorry in Essex.

 

I am for sure not downplaying 670 people losing their lives, but you don't think most people would be happy to exchange stats with England?  All things being equal, I am guessing a majority of people would rather have somebody come into mall or school with a knife and ill intentions vs. guns.   

Guns don't kill people, but they sure make it easier to do so than a knife and a hammer.   I am guessing that's why you don't hunt and protect your family with a knife or a hammer.  

I'm not arguing that guns don't kill more people.  I agree with you - guns can kill more people without question.

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Just now, KarmaPolice said:

 Correct.  Nobody is claiming deaths will go to zero, but even you seem to be admitting that they will decrease.  

But you're not answering my question.  Do you know what "semi-automatic" means?

I promise you - I'm getting to a point here.

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15 minutes ago, -fish- said:

Yes, he's given a couple examples of being irresponsible, including keeping a loaded gun in an unlocked glove compartment with minors in a car.  

Was he we one that greeted the neighbor with his gun in his waistband, or was that KC?   I think SC has said he takes his to the gym or wherever he plays racquetball.  

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2 minutes ago, BladeRunner said:

THAT is what I keep asking people and ZERO people are responding because I'm pretty sure they know where it's going to go.

I'm asking people if they know what "semi-automatic" means.   Can you tell me?  This is the point to the WHOLE "OMG!!! AR-15!!" drama we're getting.

I agree you can kill more people with a gun than with a knife.  There is no argument there.  But people will still die by other means then.

I posted pages back exactly what an AR-15 is and where its' design originated.  As did others after me.  It was designed as a weapon of war.  But I'm not going down that rabbit hole again.  My thoughts are the same as when this was debated pages back.

There is a reason why that gun has become the weapon of choice with these kind of killers.  It's doing exactly what it's designed to do.  Knives were not chosen for a reason, they wouldn't be able to kill as many as they hope too.  

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2 minutes ago, KarmaPolice said:

Was he we one that greeted the neighbor with his gun in his waistband, or was that KC?   I think SC has said he takes his to the gym or wherever he plays racquetball.  

To be fair, I conceal carry ALL the time.  So that means when I answer the door I have it on me.  When I go to the store I have it on me.  When I go get something to eat I have it on me.  So, basically, I'm greeting people with one on me too.

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4 minutes ago, BladeRunner said:

But you're not answering my question.  Do you know what "semi-automatic" means?

I promise you - I'm getting to a point here.

I can but I'm not sure what the argument is :)

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Just now, dkp993 said:

I posted pages back exactly what an AR-15 is and where its' design originated.  As did others after me.  It was designed as a weapon of war.  But I'm not going down that rabbit hole again.  My thoughts are the same as when this was debated pages back.

There is a reason why that gun has become the weapon of choice with these kind of killers.  It's doing exactly what it's designed to do.  Knives were not chosen for a reason, they wouldn't be able to kill as many as they hope too.  

I didn't ask you the history of what the AR was.  I asked if you knew what "semi-automatic" means?

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4 minutes ago, KarmaPolice said:

said he takes his to the gym or wherever he plays racquetball.  

gold was produced from that statement.  pure forum posting gold.  

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Just now, BladeRunner said:

To be fair, I conceal carry ALL the time.  So that means when I answer the door I have it on me.  When I go to the store I have it on me.  When I go get something to eat I have it on me.  So, basically, I'm greeting people with one on me too.

Serious question, as I am pro gun but also believe in registration, limiting capacities and frankly not allowing certain firearms.

How do you feel about non permit conceal states?   Good bad indifferent?

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4 minutes ago, BladeRunner said:

But you're not answering my question.  Do you know what "semi-automatic" means?

I promise you - I'm getting to a point here.

Why are you asking me?   If you notice, I am consciously not posting much about specifics of guns.   

My understanding is semi-auto = self loading, so the ammo auto loads, but you still have to pull the trigger.  :shrug:   Auto = just have to hold the trigger.  

 

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2 minutes ago, BladeRunner said:

I didn't ask you the history of what the AR was.  I asked if you knew what "semi-automatic" means?

What's the chemical composition of basalt?*  

 

*that has about as much relevance as you asking me about semi-auto's as I've never even mentioned them or talked about them

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8 minutes ago, KarmaPolice said:

Was he we one that greeted the neighbor with his gun in his waistband, or was that KC?   I think SC has said he takes his to the gym or wherever he plays racquetball.  

KC is the one that may have admitted to a felony by bragging about brandishing his gun at a neighbor who complained about his dog barking.

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20 minutes ago, belljr said:

Serious question, as I am pro gun but also believe in registration, limiting capacities and frankly not allowing certain firearms.

How do you feel about non permit conceal states?   Good bad indifferent?

I feel that at the VERY least you need to take a firearms safety course/conceal-carry course before you are allowed to carry.  I'm not so concerned about the permit, TBH.  Maybe "the permit" is what you get after you take your course.  Although, in WI you have to take a conceal carry course but I would prefer that includes range time as well as classroom time.  It's just a classroom.  I would even be on board with having a specific number of hours of range time before you are allowed to conceal carry as well.  Just like we do airline pilots and the like.

Also, I did have to technically "register" with the ATF on my gun purchase - just like everyone else does.  It's a background check that ALL legal gun owners have to go thru.

Edited by BladeRunner
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2 minutes ago, dkp993 said:

What's the chemical composition of basalt?*  

 

*that has about as much relevance as you asking me about semi-auto's as I've never even mentioned them or talked about them

You're being obtuse now dkp.  It literally goes to the point.

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1 minute ago, BladeRunner said:

You're being obtuse now dkp.  It literally goes to the point.

It doesn't because I'm not talking about 'semi-auto' anything.  So it has nothing to do with the points I'm making.  if you have a point about them you'd like to make then make it but I'm not going to play gotcha with you.

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18 minutes ago, KarmaPolice said:

Why are you asking me?   If you notice, I am consciously not posting much about specifics of guns.   

My understanding is semi-auto = self loading, so the ammo auto loads, but you still have to pull the trigger.  :shrug:   Auto = just have to hold the trigger.  

 

Your are correct.  Semi-auto = one pull of the trigger and one round comes out of the barrel.

Now, to the point:  Do you know that almost ALL modern firearms - rifles, pistols and shotguns - are all semi-automatic?  INCLUDING the AR-15?  I have 5 pistols - all semi-automatic.  Most of them hold 17+1.  I can fire just as fast with a pistol as you can with an AR-15.  I also have a semi-automatic shotgun that holds 7+1.

The one obvious advantage a rifle has over a pistol and shotgun, of course, is range.

And this is where us gun owners go crazy with the focus on the AR-15.  The AR-15 isn't any more dangerous than any other semi-automatic weapons.  And if you go after the AR-15 then it won't be long until they go after the rest, IMO.

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3 minutes ago, dkp993 said:

It doesn't because I'm not talking about 'semi-auto' anything.  So it has nothing to do with the points I'm making.  if you have a point about them you'd like to make then make it but I'm not going to play gotcha with you.

It literally goes to the point of killing people.   I'm not playing "gotcha", I'm trying to help you understand why you think the AR-15 is much more dangerous than any other semi-automatic weapon.

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Just now, BladeRunner said:

It literally goes to the point of killing people.   I'm not playing "gotcha", I'm trying to help you understand why you think the AR-15 is much more dangerous than any other semi-automatic weapon.

Make your point then.  Why you’re  waiting for me to come ask you to dance I don’t know, my answer is irrelevant. The floor is yours....

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1 minute ago, dkp993 said:

Make your point then.  Why you’re  waiting for me to come ask you to dance I don’t know, my answer is irrelevant. The floor is yours....

I did.  :shrug:

That's why it's important to know what "semi-automatic" means.

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5 minutes ago, BladeRunner said:

Your are correct.  Semi-auto = one pull of the trigger and one round comes out of the barrel.

Now, to the point:  Do you know that almost ALL modern firearms - rifles, pistols and shotguns - are all semi-automatic?  INCLUDING the AR-15?  I have 5 pistols - all semi-automatic.  Most of them hold 17+1.  I can fire just as fast with a pistol as you can with an AR-15.  I also have a semi-automatic shotgun that holds 7+1.

And this is where us gun owners go crazy with the focus on the AR-15.  The AR-15 isn't any more dangerous than any other semi-automatic weapons.  And if you go after the AR-15 then it won't be long until they go after the rest, IMO.

Yes, I do.   We talked about that when we were discussing the guns that have been used in the shootings.   

I am not a slippery slope guy if you can't tell from my postings in the PSF, and we have covered how rulings have made it nearly impossible to touch handguns (and to my knowledge nobody here is advocating for that anyway).  

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14 minutes ago, BladeRunner said:

I feel that at the VERY least you need to take a firearms safety course/conceal-carry course before you are allowed to carry.  I'm not so concerned about the permit, TBH.  Maybe "the permit" is what you get after you take your course.  Although, in WI you have to take a conceal carry course but I would prefer that includes range time as well as classroom time.  It's just a classroom.  I would even be on board with having a specific number of hours of range time before you are allowed to conceal carry as well.  Just like we do airline pilots and the like.

Also, I did have technically "register" with the ATF on my gun purchase - just like everyone else does.  It's a background check that ALL legal gun owners have to go thru.

Fair enough.  I think I would like a little more stringent or longer wait period but I agree with your points.  Not a fan of what Iowa just did

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4 minutes ago, KarmaPolice said:

Do you think that people are going after ARs because they are semi-automatic? 

I think they are going after them because they look "scary".  They are no more an "Assault Rifle" (whatever that even means) than a semi-automatic shotgun or any other semi-automatic rifle are.

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1 minute ago, belljr said:

Fair enough.  I think I would like a little more stringent or longer wait period but I agree with your points.  Not a fan of what Iowa just did

And, for the record, I was in the USMC for 8 years so I already had/have handgun experience.  Technically, I didn't need to take the class but I did anyways.  You can never have enough learning or training when dealing with guns, IMO.  Even us old guys who've done it before.  We might even learn something new.

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32 minutes ago, KarmaPolice said:

Do you think that people are going after ARs because they are semi-automatic? 

Yeah I really don't get why blade kept trying to corner me on the semi auto thing.  That was never part of my argument about them....

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5 minutes ago, dkp993 said:

Yeah I really don't get why blade kept trying to corner me on the semi auto thing.  That was never part of my argument about them....

The point was that most modern firearms are semi-automatic.  :shrug:

The AR-15 is no different or no more deadly than any other semi-automatic weapon.  Not sure why you're having such a hard time with this.

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31 minutes ago, BladeRunner said:

I think they are going after them because they look "scary".  They are no more an "Assault Rifle" (whatever that even means) than a semi-automatic shotgun or any other semi-automatic rifle are.

The thing your missing, (either on purpose or not, at this point I don't know) is design.  Yes a highly skilled marksman can kill just as many people with a handgun as someone with and AR-15.  But the point it the threshold for killing lots of people quickly is much lower for the average human being with an AR-15 then a handgun.  Because of the design.  That's literally what and AR-15 is designed to do, a hand gun not so much.  You can dig a hole with both a pocket knife or a shovel, the shovel will just do it quicker and more efficiently.    

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Just now, dkp993 said:

The thing your missing, (either on purpose or not, at this point I don't know) is design.  Yes a highly skilled marksman can kill just as many people with a handgun as someone with and AR-15.  But the point it the threshold for killing lots of people quickly is much lower for the average human being with an AR-15 then a handgun.  Because of the design.  That's literally what and AR-15 is designed to do, a hand gun not so much.  You can dig a hole with both a pocket knife or a shovel, the shovel will just do it quicker and more efficiently.    

Doesn't really matter what the intent behind the design was.  It's a semi-automatic like most every other firearm.  You can kill just as many people.  The AR doesn't have any special advantage.

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Scary-looking gun theory literally straight off the NRA site.  So stupid.  
 

AR-15s and other assault weapons (yes, they do exist—the gun industry actually invented the term) were designed for maximum damage and ease of use.  And the reason that gun control advocates go after them, other than their repeated use in mass murder, is because the Supreme Court doesn’t allow the same regulation of other guns.  Such a tired, misleading argument.  “Honest discussion” guy is just a SC clone armed with the same misinformation.  Little wonder, since it comes from the same source.

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1 minute ago, BladeRunner said:

Doesn't really matter what the intent behind the design was.  It's a semi-automatic like most every other firearm.  You can kill just as many people.  The AR doesn't have any special advantage.

If the design of something doesn't factor in then I don't know how to have a conversation with you because you just aren't being honest about it. 

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3 minutes ago, dkp993 said:

If the design of something doesn't factor in then I don't know how to have a conversation with you because you just aren't being honest about it. 

That's absurd.  I don't agree with you so I'M not being honest?  I am being honest - I don't think it matters what the intent behind the design was.  What was the intent behind the design of a handgun?  Hunting?  Or to kill people?

C'mon, man.  You're better than that.  Don't minimize my arguments because you're so beholden to a talking point.  I've put up some very fair and detailed posts here explaining my position.

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13 minutes ago, -fish- said:

Scary-looking gun theory literally straight off the NRA site.  So stupid.  
 

AR-15s and other assault weapons (yes, they do exist—the gun industry actually invented the term) were designed for maximum damage and ease of use.  And the reason that gun control advocates go after them, other than their repeated use in mass murder, is because the Supreme Court doesn’t allow the same regulation of other guns.  Such a tired, misleading argument.  “Honest discussion” guy is just a SC clone armed with the same misinformation.  Little wonder, since it comes from the same source.

WTH is an "Assault Weapon"?  Please tell me.  I see you guys bandy this about as if it's common knowledge.  So, explain to me what is an "Assault Weapon"?

It appears you're the one who doesn't want to have an honest discussion.  You're the one saying if someone doesn't agree with you they're being dishonest.  Spoken like a true brainwashed gun control lackey.

And I've seen numerous posts of yours not just in here but in other threads.  Let's just say that you're one of the most immovable people in this forum.  You're not here to have discussion - you want obedience.

Did you like that?

Now, you can continue to be a #### and if you want then I'd appreciate it if you just didn't respond to any of my posts.  If you'd rather talk, then I'm more than willing to talk.

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6 minutes ago, BladeRunner said:

That's absurd.  I don't agree with you so I'M not being honest?  I am being honest - I don't think it matters what the intent behind the design was.  What was the intent behind the design of a handgun?  Hunting?  Or to kill people?

C'mon, man.  You're better than that.  Don't minimize my arguments because you're so beholden to a talking point.  I've put up some very fair and detailed posts here explaining my position.

No you’re completely missing my point.  I say the design matters, you say it doesn’t. I can’t fathom how you can say it doesn’t, things are designed and redesigned for efficiency all the time in every field.  You seem like a smart dude so then it feels to me like you’re not being honest if you are trying to tell me design doesn’t matter.  My reaction has nothing to do with your differing opinion, I just don’t feel like it’s a good faith discussion if we can’t start with agreeing on some basic fundamental premises.  

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6 minutes ago, dkp993 said:

No you’re completely missing my point.  I say the design matters, you say it doesn’t. I can’t fathom how you can say it doesn’t, things are designed and redesigned for efficiency all the time in every field.  You seem like a smart dude so then it feels to me like you’re not being honest if you are trying to tell me design doesn’t matter.  My reaction has nothing to do with your differing opinion, I just don’t feel like it’s a good faith discussion if we can’t start with agreeing on some basic fundamental premises.  

Sure, but who gets to decide what the "basic fundamental premises" are?  You?  Me?  That's where the problem lies - you really believe that you can't discuss the topic without that?  I think we can.  Like I said, all handguns were designed to kill people - just like the AR-15.  Can you have a discussion about handguns?

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