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Mass Shootings Thread


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3 minutes ago, ekbeats said:

The right to self defense is a natural law as well as God-given, so pick your poison.  As I said earlier, it is programmed into our DNA and replete throughout nature.  You want to argue that your version of God doesn’t believe in that?  That’s great - I won’t argue with you on a personal religious belief.  But I will point out that yours is a minority belief, and in contravention to the founding fathers.

Great, that doesn't have to mean self defense = any gun you want.  

just don't think cherry picking Bible verses will ever get people very far in discussions when we all are aware of the other crazy things we could quote out of there.  

just curious, what exactly belief of mine are you claiming is a minority belief? 

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3 minutes ago, KarmaPolice said:

Great, that doesn't have to mean self defense = any gun you want.  

just don't think cherry picking Bible verses will ever get people very far in discussions when we all are aware of the other crazy things we could quote out of there.  

just curious, what exactly belief of mine are you claiming is a minority belief? 

I quoted the Biblical verse in response to a post that said the right yo self defense didn’t come from on high or on stone tablets.  My point was that this right is very much expressed within the Bible.  There are many other verses and allegories that speak to the right to self defense.

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11 minutes ago, ekbeats said:

I quoted the Biblical verse in response to a post that said the right yo self defense didn’t come from on high or on stone tablets.  My point was that this right is very much expressed within the Bible.  There are many other verses and allegories that speak to the right to self defense.

That was still written by man, so quoting the Bible doesn't do much either.  imo the other crazy stuff in there basically negates the stuff we could cherry pick out that would apply to daily life. 

I get the point that wanting to protect yourself and yours is a natural instinct, and I agree with that.  

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1 minute ago, KarmaPolice said:

That was still written by man, so quoting the Bible doesn't do much either.  imo the other crazy stuff in there basically negates the stuff we could cherry pick out that would apply to daily life. 

I get the point that wanting to protect yourself and yours is a natural instinct, and I agree with that.  

...but guns are a particularly ineffective means of self defense and you're more likely to hurt or kill yourself or a member of your household or have the gun stolen than you are to ever use it in self defense.   It's just another false narrative that has been repeated by the faithful until they believe it, despite facts and evidence to the contrary.   

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1 minute ago, -fish- said:

...but guns are a particularly ineffective means of self defense and you're more likely to hurt or kill yourself or a member of your household or have the gun stolen than you are to ever use it in self defense.   It's just another false narrative that has been repeated by the faithful until they believe it, despite facts and evidence to the contrary.   

What’s a better means of self defense when someone breaks into your home?  

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Just now, ekbeats said:

What’s a better means of self defense when someone breaks into your home?  

if you are expecting someone and waiting with the gun loaded, I guess I would assume it's effective.  If you are taken by surprise, the gun is in a safe, unloaded, whatever? I would imagine either you are already in trouble if someone was intent on doing you serious harm.  

I would think a dog, locks, alarms, etc would be far more effective and at that point, the % of needing a gun is so miniscule that the statistical risks outweigh the benefit.  

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Posted (edited)
29 minutes ago, KarmaPolice said:

if you are expecting someone and waiting with the gun loaded, I guess I would assume it's effective.  If you are taken by surprise, the gun is in a safe, unloaded, whatever? I would imagine either you are already in trouble if someone was intent on doing you serious harm.  

I would think a dog, locks, alarms, etc would be far more effective and at that point, the % of needing a gun is so miniscule that the statistical risks outweigh the benefit.  

My home was broken into when I was 10 years old.  The doors were locked and we had a German Shepard.  She was completely useless.   The guy actually came in my room while I laid in bed scared stiff.  Fortunately he only wanted drug money.

My good friend in college , who owned guns but couldn’t have one in his dorm, stayed at school with his girlfriend over Thanksgiving break. A guy scaled the wall, broke into his room, and viciously raped his girlfriend while he was tied up.  

My wife’s college friend was camping on the Appalachian Trail with another girl.  They were both raped and murdered.  It’s a fairly well known story and was even noted in a popular novel written years later.  

I’ll keep my handgun thank you.

Edited by ekbeats
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1 minute ago, ekbeats said:

My home was broken into when I was 10 years old.  The doors were locked and we had a German Shepard.  She was completely useless.   The guy actually came in my room while I laid in bed scared stiff.  Fortunately he only wanted drug money.

My good friend in college , who owned guns but couldn’t have one in his dorm, stated at school with his girlfriend over Thanksgiving break. A guy scaled the wall, broke into his room, and viciously raped his girlfriend while he was tied up.  

My wife’s college friend was camping on the Appalachian Trail with another girl.  They were both raped and murdered.  It’s a fairly well known story and was even in a novel written years later.  

I’ll keep my handgun thank you.

those are incredibly painful and traumatizing situations.  not belittling those experiences and not saying that bad things don't happen.  

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15 minutes ago, ekbeats said:

My home was broken into when I was 10 years old.  The doors were locked and we had a German Shepard.  She was completely useless.   The guy actually came in my room while I laid in bed scared stiff.  Fortunately he only wanted drug money.

Just curious - was the person who broke in somebody that the family knew?  

I am struggling keeping people's backgrounds and personal stories straight.  I thought somebody posted a bit ago that they had a break-in from a family member/friend when they were a kid.  

Thanks for sharing and being honest about a traumatic experience like those, btw.   Really sobering and helpful to see where people are coming from and what they bring to the table for these discussions.  

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13 minutes ago, KarmaPolice said:

Just curious - was the person who broke in somebody that the family knew?  

I am struggling keeping people's backgrounds and personal stories straight.  I thought somebody posted a bit ago that they had a break-in from a family member/friend when they were a kid.  

Thanks for sharing and being honest about a traumatic experience like those, btw.   Really sobering and helpful to see where people are coming from and what they bring to the table for these discussions.  

Yup - you have a good memory.  That dog was a sweetheart.  She loved people, even the bad guys.

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37 minutes ago, bigbottom said:

briefly.   it will be interesting to see how much gun crime increases as a result of this law, like it has in each state that has adopted permissive concealed carry laws.

 

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7 minutes ago, ekbeats said:

Here’s the story of my wife’s friend Lollie.  Worse than I remembered, which is probably a good sign, because I’ve been trying to forget it for years.  
https://thetruecrimestoryteller.wordpress.com/2020/01/05/the-murders-of-julie-williams-and-lollie-winans/

Her murder was also written about in the book and movie A Walk in the Woods.  

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, ekbeats said:

My home was broken into when I was 10 years old.  The doors were locked and we had a German Shepard.  She was completely useless.   The guy actually came in my room while I laid in bed scared stiff.  Fortunately he only wanted drug money.

My good friend in college , who owned guns but couldn’t have one in his dorm, stayed at school with his girlfriend over Thanksgiving break. A guy scaled the wall, broke into his room, and viciously raped his girlfriend while he was tied up.  

My wife’s college friend was camping on the Appalachian Trail with another girl.  They were both raped and murdered.  It’s a fairly well known story and was even noted in a popular novel written years later.  

I’ll keep my handgun thank you.

Those are some traumatic experiences for sure, I don’t blame you one bit for feeling the way you do about a handgun.  Between the ages of 6 and 8 I twice came back home to my grandparents house after we went to dinner to having burglars in the house.  It was straight up terrifying and I vividly remember the overwhelming sense of fear and violation I felt.  It’s still with me to this day as I check every windows and doors before I go to bed.   It’s the over-riding reason why I want a gun. 

Edited by dkp993
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2 hours ago, ekbeats said:

Reading comprehension down?  

Nope...its just fine.  The Bible has zero to do with guns or the 2nd amendment.

That biblical passage had zero to do  with the 2nd amendment.

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2 hours ago, ekbeats said:

I quoted the Biblical verse in response to a post that said the right yo self defense didn’t come from on high or on stone tablets.  My point was that this right is very much expressed within the Bible.  There are many other verses and allegories that speak to the right to self defense.

The 2nd amendment is not one giving a right to self defense.  
 

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

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1 minute ago, sho nuff said:

The 2nd amendment is not one giving a right to self defense.  
 

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

I’ll let @-fish- give a tutorial on Heller.

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16 minutes ago, dkp993 said:

Those are some traumatic experiences for sure, I don’t blame you one bit for feeling the way you do about a handgun.  Between the ages of 6 and 8 I twice came back home to my grandparents house after we went to dinner to having burglars in the house.  It was straight up terrifying and I vividly remember the overwhelming sense of fear and violation I felt.  It’s still with me to this day as I check every window and door before I go to bed.   It’s the over-riding reason why I want a gun. 

It does stay with you.  I wouldn’t even consider camping after that Lollie incident, and haven’t done it up this day.  I’m ready to do it now though, and it’s because I own a gun.  And that’s a good thing.

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23 minutes ago, ekbeats said:

I’ll let @-fish- give a tutorial on Heller.

And I will laugh that the 2nd Amendment as written by man makes anything a God given right.  As well as guessing that God seeing how the people have abused guns would be none too pleased.

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Posted (edited)
19 minutes ago, sho nuff said:

And I will laugh that the 2nd Amendment as written by man makes anything a God given right.  As well as guessing that God seeing how the people have abused guns would be none too pleased.

Well the founding fathers believed self defense as codified in 2A to be a God given right.  And I’d trust their wisdom over yours any day of the week.

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7 minutes ago, ekbeats said:

Well the founding fathers believed self defense as codified in 2A to be a God given right.  And I’d trust their wisdom over yours any day of the week.

They did? I would love to see any links on those thoughts of the FF, the 2nd amendment and guns (which would have been muskets at the time). 

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I don't know how i would react after some of these experiences, but I still think statistically chances must be pretty small of successfully using a gun to defend yourself in a situation like that.  I'd guess that the element of surprise and rate of waiting until people are sleeping are pretty high.  I get the impulse to feel the need for one though.  

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2 hours ago, -fish- said:

...but guns are a particularly ineffective means of self defense and you're more likely to hurt or kill yourself or a member of your household or have the gun stolen than you are to ever use it in self defense.   It's just another false narrative that has been repeated by the faithful until they believe it, despite facts and evidence to the contrary.   

While I believe studies which show the likelihood of home firearms causing death far exceeds the chance they’ll be used successfully against a bad guy, I’m unaware of data comparing various methods of self defense. Can you educate me?

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10 minutes ago, KarmaPolice said:

I don't know how i would react after some of these experiences, but I still think statistically chances must be pretty small of successfully using a gun to defend yourself in a situation like that.  I'd guess that the element of surprise and rate of waiting until people are sleeping are pretty high.  I get the impulse to feel the need for one though.  

It’s been shown repeatedly that risk of death from homicide, suicide and accidental shooting increases in homes with firearms vs. those without, so it seems pretty clear the net effect of gun ownership on living is negative.

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21 minutes ago, squistion said:

They did? I would love to see any links on those thoughts of the FF, the 2nd amendment and guns (which would have been muskets at the time). 

Not interested.  Look it up yourself if you’re truly interested, which you aren’t.  Your motivations in here are well known, and a search for truth isn’t one of them.

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15 minutes ago, Terminalxylem said:

It’s been shown repeatedly that risk of death from homicide, suicide and accidental shooting increases in homes with firearms vs. those without, so it seems pretty clear the net effect of gun ownership on living is negative.

Like I said above, I can understand the impulse to feel like you need one for protection, especially given the personal backgrounds that have been shared.   

Not to be morbid, but I try to think through when I would possibly need one or think that I would use one successfully, and I come up black.   Mostly the scenarios I come up with is somebody really intent on doing harm to somebody (probably planned and picked out a time when people are sleeping, don't have other security measures, etc.. ) or burglary (statistically more likely when I am not at home, don't have an alarm, etc. ).  The first one unless I have the gun loaded beside me, I assume I would be in trouble even with a gun, and the second probably just people up and moving would scare off most people just looking for something to grab quick.  

I also fully admit that I have zero experience with a gun besides paintball, so maybe that clouds my thinking on how likely a person would be in fending off a terrible scenario.  

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1 hour ago, ekbeats said:

It does stay with you.  I wouldn’t even consider camping after that Lollie incident, and haven’t done it up this day.  I’m ready to do it now though, and it’s because I own a gun.  And that’s a good thing.

I got 5 and a shotgun.  1 for EDC and the rest for the liberal zombie apocalypse.

I didn't plan on getting an AR-15 but after reading all of these posts and interacting with @-fish-I feel like I'm going to get one now.  He's actually convinced me to buy one with his anti-gun talking points.

 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, KarmaPolice said:

I don't know how i would react after some of these experiences, but I still think statistically chances must be pretty small of successfully using a gun to defend yourself in a situation like that.  I'd guess that the element of surprise and rate of waiting until people are sleeping are pretty high.  I get the impulse to feel the need for one though.  

I'd rather have one and not need it than need it and not have it.

You can make all the assumptions you want but ultimately that's all they are: assumptions. You have no idea what you or anyone else would do in that situation.

All I can tell you is that luck favors the prepared.  If you want to increase your odds then you will be prepared.

If you're expecting Superman to come out of this guy in rescue you you're going to be in for a big surprise.

Edited by BladeRunner
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51 minutes ago, ekbeats said:

Not interested.  Look it up yourself if you’re truly interested, which you aren’t.  Your motivations in here are well known, and a search for truth isn’t one of them.

Check and mate.  :thumbup:

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38 minutes ago, KarmaPolice said:

Like I said above, I can understand the impulse to feel like you need one for protection, especially given the personal backgrounds that have been shared.   

Not to be morbid, but I try to think through when I would possibly need one or think that I would use one successfully, and I come up black.   Mostly the scenarios I come up with is somebody really intent on doing harm to somebody (probably planned and picked out a time when people are sleeping, don't have other security measures, etc.. ) or burglary (statistically more likely when I am not at home, don't have an alarm, etc. ).  The first one unless I have the gun loaded beside me, I assume I would be in trouble even with a gun, and the second probably just people up and moving would scare off most people just looking for something to grab quick.  

I also fully admit that I have zero experience with a gun besides paintball, so maybe that clouds my thinking on how likely a person would be in fending off a terrible scenario.  

If you're in Wisconsin I can take you shooting. All you got to do DM me. I'm always willing to help the uninitiated.

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52 minutes ago, ekbeats said:

Not interested.  Look it up yourself if you’re truly interested, which you aren’t.  Your motivations in here are well known, and a search for truth isn’t one of them.

I ask you to back up what you say and your response is always the deflection of "Look it up yourself" which means of course, you have no proof, no quotes or any links to back up your claims.

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2 minutes ago, squistion said:

I ask you to back up what you say and your response is always the deflection of "Look it up yourself" which means of course, you have no proof, no quotes or any links to back up your claims.

It's almost as if you didn't read a word that he posted.

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7 minutes ago, BladeRunner said:

If you're in Wisconsin I can take you shooting. All you got to do DM me. I'm always willing to help the uninitiated.

Not sure what it would accomplish, but thanks.   Buddy at work offers the same a bit too.  I would never by a gun, so not sure what  I would get out of it.  

If I was nervous about where I lived I would get a decent security system first.  Hell, first I would probably start locking my doors at night.  

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5 minutes ago, KarmaPolice said:

Not sure what it would accomplish, but thanks.   Buddy at work offers the same a bit too.  I would never by a gun, so not sure what  I would get out of it.  

If I was nervous about where I lived I would get a decent security system first.  Hell, first I would probably start locking my doors at night.  

Well, the first thing accomplished is that you would learn how to handle a gun. Shooting a gun is actually fun, believe it or not.

A lot of people are scared of it as with anything if they don't know about it. The more you get to know it the more comfortable you'll become and to be honest the more knowledgeable you'll become about guns.  Of course, you're not going to get that in one session at the shooting range but if you watch videos on YouTube about people who've never had experience with guns and are anti-gun and then they go shoot guns and they actually have a good time.

Anyways, at the very least you can always tell everyone what a real jerk that Blade Runner guy is in person. 🤣

 

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Posted (edited)
24 minutes ago, BladeRunner said:

It's almost as if you didn't read a word that he posted.

I read every word. He made a claim that the "founding fathers believed self defense, as codified in 2A, to be a God given right." Asked for something, for anything, in the way of proof or documentation to back this up and got the usual deflection of "look it up" :shrug:

Edited by squistion
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I'm pretty anti gun as I've laid out in this thread.  I've shot an AR-15 and a .22 bolt action or lever, I can't recall.  Been skeet shooting with a shotgun.

I had fun shooting the 3 or 4 times I've gone, but it's not something I seek out.  I understand the appeal, but I think the harm to society outweighs the benefit. 

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8 hours ago, The Z Machine said:

I'm pretty anti gun as I've laid out in this thread.  I've shot an AR-15 and a .22 bolt action or lever, I can't recall.  Been skeet shooting with a shotgun.

I had fun shooting the 3 or 4 times I've gone, but it's not something I seek out.  I understand the appeal, but I think the harm to society outweighs the benefit. 

Do you support disarming the states as well? As in no police can have weapons either.

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3 hours ago, Max Power said:

Do you support disarming the states as well? As in no police can have weapons either.

No, but if enough guns are taken out of public then perhaps the police could change their tactics.  I haven't read up on how police tactics have evolved in places like Australia where a significant % of firearms were removed from public use.

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16 hours ago, ekbeats said:

I’ll let @-fish- give a tutorial on Heller.

meh, this one is really Miller, but yeah.

the words of the second amendment are essentially meaningless at this point.  we're stuck with the interpretation of the Supreme Court.  

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15 hours ago, KarmaPolice said:

I don't know how i would react after some of these experiences, but I still think statistically chances must be pretty small of successfully using a gun to defend yourself in a situation like that.  I'd guess that the element of surprise and rate of waiting until people are sleeping are pretty high.  I get the impulse to feel the need for one though.  

 

I'm going to be fair about this, you are absolutely right that the statistical odds of a using a firearm for self defense is actually an extremely rare event. This also does not account for the possible criminal and legal and financial ramifications afterwards. However you completely missed the bigger point to all of this .

Gun ownership is linked hand in hand with home ownership and land ownership. It's also linked to business ownership ( you'll find gun laws in most states will vary quite a bit once you are dealing with an owner of a business and their options with firearms)

Homeowners pay property taxes. Property taxes generate lots of revenue. You mess with gun ownership, you create another incentive not to be a homeowner ( trust me, there are MANY of them)  If everyone is living van life and cruising around in Sprinter vans, then there is no one paying property taxes and our economy falls apart. Our economy tanks and people starve and die and all politicians are now powerless. You can't rule over the starving and dying for very long.

Part of the American Dream is you fight hard and you work hard and you buy a home. Something of your own. And you can do what you want inside of it. Lots of people who are animal lovers will own a home just for that reason - to maintain their pets. A house is probably a more stable environment to raise kids in an ideal sense. A person paying a mortgage has to fall in line to the power brokers of society. They have kids to feed and need to keep food on the table, they aren't buckling too hard against the establishment.

Part of gun ownership is about the illusion you are king of your own castle and you have a right to defend it. But you aren't king of your own castle. I have paid off every property long ago. San Francisco. Bay Area. River Oaks. Beacon Hill. Terrell Hills. Medina. Wailea. There's more and it's a long list. But other than some unincorporated land I bought in Alaska, I'm still just a renter. Property taxes makes me a renter. Look at the penalty charts of various areas if you don't pay your property taxes. The design is to become so punitive and at an exponential rate so the state can just take the property from you. Everything the government does is about money. Abortion is legal. If it's not, who is going to pay for all those unwanted children? Paternity fraud is essentially legal, otherwise, who is going to pay for the wayward children of someone being cuckolded? The state? Divorce law is punitive to majority bread winner. Do you want more people on government assistance after a brutal divorce? Children who have no means to survive or any support are cared for by the state - BECAUSE THEY ARE FUTURE TAXPAYERS.

If you start wiping out gun rights, you start the ball rolling on messing with the concept of homeownership and thus the property tax base. You also lose the jobs the firearms industry creates. You also lose the innovation that the civilian firearms market brings to the military weapons market. The marriage and childbirth rates in America have been falling like a rock for a long time. Look at this equation

Outrageous and exponentially more expensive medical care + An aging population that's living longer than every before + Fewer new taxpayers coming into the marketplace as there are no more incentives to get married, buy a house and have kids = A blown up economy where we all starve and die.

Politicians don't care if we all starve or die. It's been covered many times, people who are drawn to that profession are usually narcissists, psychopaths, BPD and sociopaths. They do care if they lose power. You have no power if your rank and file population can't eat and are dying in the streets. It's easy to say just take away people's guns, it's hard to actually look at the economic impact of that industry and how it ripples into the overall economy. Like I said, many of you are fit into that overeducated limp wristed white liberal/white collar corporate drone with above average earning power being tone deaf and entitled and smug towards lots of everyday Americans. It's easy when it's not a question of food on the plate for your kids, whether you have a job or not, whether you have a home or not. Easy to be elitist and thoughtless and milk the woke playbook. Do some of you even realize how patently cruel you sound to those out there half a pay cycle away from being homeless?

You are banging your head against the wall on a minutiae MSM talking point because no one wants you to talk about the overlying issue that Americans can actually no longer own property in America. Property taxes makes you a glorified renter.

Repeating MSM talking points for outrage is volunteering to become cattle for the establishment. This is much bigger than just guns.

When it's more profitable to see guns disappear than to have them, you'll finally see them go away. Everything else just political theater. And how easily you bought a ticket and sat in the zealot tier.

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41 minutes ago, Terminalxylem said:

While I really appreciate the romantic vision of gun ownership promoting marriage and starting a family, I'll take my chances that there's enough limp-wristed pacifists to keep the country afloat.

I learned that I guess renters don’t feel the need to protect their homes and loved ones, but once you pay that property taxes those lives become far more important.  Who knew. 

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8 hours ago, BladeRunner said:

2 dead is a "mass shooting" now?  

yeah, i'm gonna go with 22 people getting shot and 2 of them killed is a mass shooting.  what would you call it?  an ice cream social?

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