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Mass Shootings Thread


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Posted (edited)
27 minutes ago, -fish- said:

yeah, i'm gonna go with 22 people getting shot and 2 of them killed is a mass shooting.  what would you call it?  an ice cream social?

Yes.  Thats what I would call it. :rolleyes:

You anti-gun zealots are so hyperbolic.  You're like a walking and talking marketing campaign for the NRA.

Edited by BladeRunner
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Posted (edited)
15 hours ago, BladeRunner said:

2 dead is a "mass shooting" now?  

3 people got out of an SUV with assault rifles and fired into a CROWD OF PEOPLE that were standing outside a nightclub.  They HIT 25+ people and there were likely many more in the crowd that was being fired into.

Edited by FreeBaGeL
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9 hours ago, Terminalxylem said:

Do you realize how many people were vaccinated in Chicago this weekend?

Not cool making jokes about the murder rates in Chicago.  Should others make jokes about every mass shooting one of you posts about?

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15 hours ago, BladeRunner said:
16 hours ago, -fish- said:

another mass shooting today that gun guys don't want to call a mass shooting.  

2 dead is a "mass shooting" now?  

It doesn't have to result in any deaths for it to be a mass shooting. I mean, as others pointed out, 22 people were shot. I would argue that even if nobody died, 22 people getting shot at one time would be a mass shooting.

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24 minutes ago, the moops said:

It doesn't have to result in any deaths for it to be a mass shooting. I mean, as others pointed out, 22 people were shot. I would argue that even if nobody died, 22 people getting shot at one time would be a mass shooting.

Do people who say this isn't a mass shooting have a cutoff number of people shot where they would then classify it as a mass shooting...50? 100? 200?. 

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1 hour ago, FreeBaGeL said:

3 people got out of an SUV with assault rifles and fired into a CROWD OF PEOPLE that were standing outside a nightclub.  They HIT 25+ people and there were likely many more in the crowd that was being fired into.

 

58 minutes ago, the moops said:

It doesn't have to result in any deaths for it to be a mass shooting. I mean, as others pointed out, 22 people were shot. I would argue that even if nobody died, 22 people getting shot at one time would be a mass shooting.

Yeah, I knee-jerked that response.  My bad.  that is a LOT of people getting shot so that fits the definition.

 

 

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2 hours ago, BladeRunner said:

 

Yeah, I knee-jerked that response.  My bad.  that is a LOT of people getting shot so that fits the definition.

 

 

funny, because you denied it and insulted me just a couple posts up.  and again before that.  weird.  

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45 minutes ago, BladeRunner said:

I said "my bad".   What more do you want?

A narrative that can further a push for gun control.

This manhunt for three gang members doesn't help because gang members don't abide by gun laws already.

Crazy enough the people getting shot at were able to return gunfire and the crew who ambushed them had to flee in a matter of seconds.  Imagine if they didn't have guns?!?!

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Posted (edited)
18 minutes ago, Max Power said:

A narrative that can further a push for gun control.

This manhunt for three gang members doesn't help because gang members don't abide by gun laws already.

Crazy enough the people getting shot at were able to return gunfire and the crew who ambushed them had to flee in a matter of seconds.  Imagine if they didn't have guns?!?!

Oh dayum!  I didn't know that they had guns too! 

Guess good guys with guns do help.  Also, that sheriff - that's Avecedo, right? - he was sheriff/police chief up here in Milwaukee.  Was just as ineffective here as he appears to be down there.

Edited by BladeRunner
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7 minutes ago, BladeRunner said:

Oh dayum!  I didn't know that they had guns too! 

Guess good guys with guns do help.  Also, that sheriff - that's Avecedo, right? - he was sheriff/police chief up here in Milwaukee.  Was just as ineffective here as he appears to be down there.

I'm not sure who it is down there.  The Mayor of Miami-Dade is advocating using RICO to prosecute those involved, which I think is a good thing to deter gang related violence. 

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12 minutes ago, BladeRunner said:

Apparently.  I was going off this article that only mentions the Police Director, Mayor and County Commissioner. 

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/acts-of-domestic-terrorism-police-hunt-for-suspects-as-new-details-emerge-in-miami-area-shooting-that-left-two-dead-21-injured/ar-AAKz6HW?ocid=msedgdhp

 

I don't know much about Acevado, but I do remember that botched Raid in Houston the article references.  I'm guessing you don't like the guy? 

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3 minutes ago, Max Power said:

Apparently.  I was going off this article that only mentions the Police Director, Mayor and County Commissioner. 

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/acts-of-domestic-terrorism-police-hunt-for-suspects-as-new-details-emerge-in-miami-area-shooting-that-left-two-dead-21-injured/ar-AAKz6HW?ocid=msedgdhp

 

I don't know much about Acevado, but I do remember that botched Raid in Houston the article references.  I'm guessing you don't like the guy? 

Y'know, I have him confused with somebody else.  I've got my Milwaukee Police Chiefs mixed up.  

Never mind.  :bag:

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Max Power said:

A narrative that can further a push for gun control.

This manhunt for three gang members doesn't help because gang members don't abide by gun laws already.

Crazy enough the people getting shot at were able to return gunfire and the crew who ambushed them had to flee in a matter of seconds.  Imagine if they didn't have guns?!?!

yes, more guns really helped this situation.   and a bonus "criminals don't follow laws."   NRA wheel of nonsense twofer.

Edited by -fish-
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Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, Max Power said:

Thats right.  You want the people being shot at to be defenseless.

He certainly does.

He also keeps bring up NRA talking points as he hits all of the anti-gun zealot talking points.  :doh:

Edited by BladeRunner
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9 minutes ago, BladeRunner said:

He keeps bring up NRA talking points as he hits all of the anti-gun zealot talking points.  :doh:

I'm not an NRA member or supporter, but I didn't know criminals dont follow the law was a talking point. I feel that is more of a fact.

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Posted (edited)

30 shot, 2 dead in Chicago over Memorial Day Weekend so far.

https://chicago.suntimes.com/crime/2021/5/29/22459586/chicago-memorial-day-weekend-shootings-may-28-31-gun-violence-homicide-crime

For those counting, that's 8 more shot and same # dead than the Florida incident that garnered so much outrage earlier.  Where's the outrage for this in one of the most anti-gun draconian states in the nation?

Edited by BladeRunner
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Posted (edited)
34 minutes ago, BladeRunner said:

30 shot, 2 dead in Chicago over Memorial Day Weekend so far.

https://chicago.suntimes.com/crime/2021/5/29/22459586/chicago-memorial-day-weekend-shootings-may-28-31-gun-violence-homicide-crime

For those counting, that's 8 more shot and same # dead than the Florida incident that garnered so much outrage earlier.  Where's the outrage for this in one of the most anti-gun draconian states in the nation?

I would love for both to stop.   However, I do view them differently.  One is spread out over a city and usually related to gang/drug activity.  One is people getting out and firing randomly into a crowd of people.   So yes, for me one will get slightly more attention than the other, one has a different level of fear than the other, and they have to be addressed in different ways.  

Edited by KarmaPolice
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45 minutes ago, BladeRunner said:

30 shot, 2 dead in Chicago over Memorial Day Weekend so far.

https://chicago.suntimes.com/crime/2021/5/29/22459586/chicago-memorial-day-weekend-shootings-may-28-31-gun-violence-homicide-crime

For those counting, that's 8 more shot and same # dead than the Florida incident that garnered so much outrage earlier.  Where's the outrage for this in one of the most anti-gun draconian states in the nation?

Were they all shot at the same time in the same incident? If not what happened in Florida is not analogous. 

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On 5/28/2021 at 11:00 AM, Max Power said:

We need to work to restore the nuclear family, societal values and a sense of community.  It's definitely a heavy lift, but I think it would be a more rewarding outcome for America than blanket gun restriction

its not the Fed Govt's job to family build - Hillary's dream of a village 

but you are not wrong - values are lost in today's world especially with youth

 

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On 5/28/2021 at 1:39 PM, JAA said:

Im curious to hear any example of tyrannical gun reform in the past 20 years.  Thanks!

I can answer that one - 

  • exercising power in a cruel or arbitrary way.
  • characteristic of tyranny; oppressive and controlling.

 

Govt overstepping its bounds against Constitutional Right's and oppressing/controlling legal law abiding citizens .....  

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assault_weapons_legislation_in_the_United_States

https://giffords.org/lawcenter/gun-laws/policy-areas/hardware-ammunition/assault-weapons/

 

 

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Posted (edited)
On 5/29/2021 at 5:45 PM, KarmaPolice said:

the statistical risks outweigh the benefit.  

if just one life is saved, isn't it worth it ? if one rape is stopped, isn't it worth it ?

and .... your statistical risk isn't the same as mine, and its not your choice, its mine, right ? 

 

statistical risks ..... like more people are beaten to death every year than are killed with rifles ? like that ?

Edited by Stealthycat
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2 minutes ago, Stealthycat said:

its not the Fed Govt's job to family build - Hillary's dream of a village 

but you are not wrong - values are lost in today's world especially with youth

No, that wasn't what Hillary was talking about when she said "It takes a village" - she said nothing about it being the job of the Fed Govt.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/It_Takes_a_Village

It Takes a Village: And Other Lessons Children Teach Us is a book published in 1996 by First Lady of the United States Hillary Rodham Clinton. In it, Clinton presents her vision for the children of America. She focuses on the impact individuals and groups outside the family have, for better or worse, on a child's well-being, and advocates a society which meets all of a child's needs. The book was written with uncredited ghostwriter Barbara Feinman.

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On 5/31/2021 at 2:48 AM, -fish- said:

yeah, i'm gonna go with 22 people getting shot and 2 of them killed is a mass shooting.  what would you call it?  an ice cream social?

you didn't mention those shooters used handguns too - why ?

you also didn't mention this - maybe the problem isn't the guns, maybe its gangs/violence ?

 

 

"The shooting early Sunday morning that killed two people and left 21 others wounded was likely a dispute between two rival groups that came to a head over things said in rap songs or social media posts, Alfredo Ramirez III, director of the Miami-Dade County Police Department told reporters during a press conference Monday morning."

https://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/community/miami-dade/article251797933.html

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5 minutes ago, squistion said:

No, that wasn't what Hillary was talking about when she said "It takes a village" - she said nothing about it being the job of the Fed Govt.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/It_Takes_a_Village

It Takes a Village: And Other Lessons Children Teach Us is a book published in 1996 by First Lady of the United States Hillary Rodham Clinton. In it, Clinton presents her vision for the children of America. She focuses on the impact individuals and groups outside the family have, for better or worse, on a child's well-being, and advocates a society which meets all of a child's needs. The book was written with uncredited ghostwriter Barbara Feinman.

but who controls all those villages that come together to make everyone happy and loving ?

Fed Govt does - Hillary and Bill's goals of creating a Govt takes care of everyone country IMO

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7 minutes ago, Stealthycat said:

its not the Fed Govt's job to family build - Hillary's dream of a village 

but you are not wrong - values are lost in today's world especially with youth

 

It's not the govt's job to build community, but I think the govt should look itself in the mirror as to why our societal values have changed.  Growing up in a single parent household is the the number one correlation to violent crime. 

Why are single parent homes are on the rise and what can we do to fix that? 

 

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1 minute ago, Stealthycat said:

but who controls all those villages that come together to make everyone happy and loving ?

Fed Govt does - Hillary and Bill's goals of creating a Govt takes care of everyone country IMO

No that was not Hillary's goal and she never suggested that the Govt shold take care of everyone in the country. 

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22 hours ago, squistion said:

Do people who say this isn't a mass shooting have a cutoff number of people shot where they would then classify it as a mass shooting...50? 100? 200?. 

I think the BATF once upon a time had a definition of 10 or more. That was changed to 6 I think and then to 4

When counting/numbers change, it can be used to say " look how many more we're having now !!! " when reality could be very different

 

Me? I might consider a mass shooting an incident where someone organized and intent on violence went and intentionally tried to kill a great many people

Mass is defined as "a large number of people or objects crowded together."

that isn't two

https://www.google.com/search?q=definitn+of+mass&rlz=1C1ONGR_enUS935US935&oq=definitn+of+mass&aqs=chrome..69i57j0i13l9.2676j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8 

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Posted (edited)
13 hours ago, KarmaPolice said:

I would love for both to stop.   However, I do view them differently.  One is spread out over a city and usually related to gang/drug activity.  One is people getting out and firing randomly into a crowd of people.   So yes, for me one will get slightly more attention than the other, one has a different level of fear than the other, and they have to be addressed in different ways.  

The police believe the Florida shooting was targeted.  While they may not have been trying to shoot specific individuals it seems the shooting was related to the event and not just totally random.  The fact that people in the crowd were armed and shooting back is telling.

Edited by John123
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1 minute ago, Max Power said:

It's not the govt's job to build community, but I think the govt should look itself in the mirror as to why our societal values have changed.  Growing up in a single parent household is the the number one correlation to violent crime. 

Why are single parent homes are on the rise and what can we do to fix that? 

 

I like these discussions because it gets to the roots of things IMO

The Govt can't do ethics/morals because they actually stand against them. 

By that I mean this. God is the source of morality/ethics The Fed Govt has done its best to remove God and so too has it removed morality.

A person can be good/ethical/moral without God but there is nothing binding that person either and so, its very easy to go opposite and do whatever they want, when they want, self pleasing. That's a huge thing IMO

 

Second point was single parent homes. Well we live in a society where people scrog like rabbits. The result is babies. In some cultural views, having 6 or 8 babies and collecting the Govt Money from those are really profitable. Divorce is way too easy. But back to the above, its all about self and what self wants. 

A man or woman can walk away from 20 years of marriage, leave the kids, the spouse, destroy the family unit ........ because they "feel" like it. That same person will be celebrated as "strong" or trying to "find themselves" etc

When society has that kind of view .... man its hard to talk about being ethical and moral when selfishness rules isn't it ?

 

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13 minutes ago, Stealthycat said:

In the Las Vegas shooting massacre a few years ago the shooter killed 60 and wounded 411. If those 60 fatalities had just been injured instead of killed, would you say that a total of 471 people wounded by gunfire in one incident could not be called a mass shooting?

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21 minutes ago, John123 said:

The police believe the Florida shooting was targeted.  While they may not have been trying to shoot specific individuals it seems the shooting was related to the event and not just totally random.  The fact that people in the crowd were armed and shooting back is telling.

I just briefly read about it, so honestly don't know the details, thanks.  

Still, this isn't like a drug deal gone wrong exactly (and not saying that all of Chicago's problems are that either).  Just saying even if there were a couple armed in the crowd, personally it's different when you open fire on a group of people who have nothing to do with whatever was going on.  

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6 minutes ago, squistion said:

In the Las Vegas shooting massacre a few years ago the shooter killed 60 and wounded 411. If those 60 fatalities had just been injured instead of killed, would you say that a total of 471 people wounded by gunfire in one incident could not be called a mass shooting?

I guess we need to determine mass shooting from mass murders ?

Yes, mass shooting even, but not a mass murder event would have been accurate wording I suppose

 

Paddock is a fascinating discussion in and of itself 

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7 minutes ago, KarmaPolice said:

I just briefly read about it, so honestly don't know the details, thanks.  

Still, this isn't like a drug deal gone wrong exactly (and not saying that all of Chicago's problems are that either).  Just saying even if there were a couple armed in the crowd, personally it's different when you open fire on a group of people who have nothing to do with whatever was going on.  

I would just caution you in saying this is totally different than what happens in Chicago weekly, before knowing all the facts.  I've read that the perps in Florida sat in wait for 40 minutes before opening fire, and that it may have been opposing gangs engaged in an escalating war of words that boiled over.  If those turn out to be the facts then this does become very similar to what happens in places like Chicago with regularity. 

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14 hours ago, BladeRunner said:

30 shot, 2 dead in Chicago over Memorial Day Weekend so far.

https://chicago.suntimes.com/crime/2021/5/29/22459586/chicago-memorial-day-weekend-shootings-may-28-31-gun-violence-homicide-crime

For those counting, that's 8 more shot and same # dead than the Florida incident that garnered so much outrage earlier.  Where's the outrage for this in one of the most anti-gun draconian states in the nation?

You keep bringing up Chicago but the same stuff is happening in all major cities.  To me it points out the need for further controls on guns, not less.

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8 minutes ago, John123 said:

I would just caution you in saying this is totally different than what happens in Chicago weekly, before knowing all the facts.  I've read that the perps in Florida sat in wait for 40 minutes before opening fire, and that it may have been opposing gangs engaged in an escalating war of words that boiled over.  If those turn out to be the facts then this does become very similar to what happens in places like Chicago with regularity. 

Fair enough.  I will read on this situation.  

Also, I am not talking 100% this situation, more in general the "but Chicago" type posts around here.   I view that situation differently than the typical mall/theater/school shooting.  

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1 hour ago, Stealthycat said:

if just one life is saved, isn't it worth it ? if one rape is stopped, isn't it worth it ?

and .... your statistical risk isn't the same as mine, and its not your choice, its mine, right ? 

 

statistical risks ..... like more people are beaten to death every year than are killed with rifles ? like that ?

you are correct.  

From our history of posting, I would guess that the only thing we would agree on is that if you choose to take that risk, you should be able to defend your house with a gun.  That's your right, it's protected by SC decisions, etc..   I am pretty consistent in my belief that we should for the most part let people live their lives how they want at home.  

But... that's probably about it, and we diverge after that.  We wouldn't agree on the types and number of guns.  What it should take to own a gun.  If the government should know you have that gun or not.  if you should be able to walk around with said gun.  On and on... 

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5 minutes ago, Godsbrother said:

You keep bringing up Chicago but the same stuff is happening in all major cities.  To me it points out the need for further controls on guns, not less.

But just more gun control in those cities right? 

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2 minutes ago, KarmaPolice said:

Fair enough.  I will read on this situation.  

Also, I am not talking 100% this situation, more in general the "but Chicago" type posts around here.   I view that situation differently than the typical mall/theater/school shooting.  

I get it and intuitively agree.  Whats interesting is that in the big picture of shootings one situation disproportionally harms POC (the one with less attention) and the other one disproportionally harms white people relative to total shootings (and gets the attention).

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16 minutes ago, Godsbrother said:

You keep bringing up Chicago but the same stuff is happening in all major cities.  To me it points out the need for further controls on guns, not less.

Which controls do you think criminals will abide by.  I'm listening.  :popcorn:

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Just now, Max Power said:

But just more gun control in those cities right? 

I would say the entire country because shootings are a regular thing pretty much everywhere in the USA but the problem goes WAYYYYY beyond gun control. 

Drugs, prostitution, mental health, poverty, etc. they all need to be addressed.

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Posted (edited)
13 minutes ago, Max Power said:

But just more gun control in those cities right? 

Which is funny because "those cities" actually already have draconian and super-restrictive gun control laws.  

Edited by BladeRunner
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2 minutes ago, Godsbrother said:

I would say the entire country because shootings are a regular thing pretty much everywhere in the USA but the problem goes WAYYYYY beyond gun control. 

Drugs, prostitution, mental health, poverty, etc. they all need to be addressed.

I don't believe in blanket gun control, but I agree there are many issues at play and I think getting to the core of the issues would be more beneficial for America. 

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3 minutes ago, BladeRunner said:

Which is funny because "those cities" actually already have draconian and super-restrictive gun control laws.  

Yes, because Guns themselves aren't the root of the problem. 

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Just now, BladeRunner said:

Which controls do you think criminals will abide by.  I'm listening.  :popcorn:

A lot of these shootings are done by people that weren't considered criminals until they shot someone.  The fact that they had easy access to guns may have be in factor in using them.

The UK doesn't have anywhere near the gun violence problems that we have.  Maybe we should see what they are doing.  Or is it your opinion that guns violence is not a problem in the USA?

 

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Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, Max Power said:

Yes, because Guns themselves aren't the root of the problem. 

It doesn't really help much if a city has draconian gun laws when you can take a 20-30 minute drive out of town to avoid them.

Edited by Godsbrother
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