Max Power
Footballguy
so again the question is, why isn't the crime rate as bad in the area they are getting all their guns from?
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Mass Shootings Thread (2 Viewers)
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KarmaPolice
Footballguy
yes/no.
if you wanted to, how many people could you kill in a crowd in a couple minutes with a knife or bat?
I get it's a person pulling the trigger, and we need to address the reason it got to that point, but this is why people also look at the gun side as being part of the problem.
Godsbrother
Footballguy
Most likely because the gun violence is mainly in urban areas and guns are initially being purchased in other areas and online where there it is easy to get them and then they are sold illegally in the cities.
ETA: I am by no means an expert in gun laws and I have no problem with citizens legally purchasing a gun for protection or hunting. I do think that it is far too easy to purchase guns legally (and illegally) and I think we should address that.
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BladeRunner
Footballguy
If they weren't considered criminals and passed the background check than that's constitutionally protected firearm ownership.
What else do you want?
BladeRunner
Footballguy
We already have laws on the books for illegal sales and purchases of firearms.
You also still have to pass a background check to legally purchase a firearm. That's not necessarily easy.
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Max Power
Footballguy
I understand that perspective. I just don't see additional gun laws stopping the shootings.
Max Power
Footballguy
Stealthycat
Footballguy
The "Govt" knew how many guns and what type the King Sooper shooter had .... stacks of laws telling that guy he couldn't do what he did
Why didn't all that stop him ?
Godsbrother
Footballguy
As I said I am not an expert but it is my understanding is that guns can be legally purchased without background checks.
Aside from that I support bans on assault rifles and high capacity magazines and other devices used to enhance guns to make them faster or easier to shoot.
Stealthycat
Footballguy
Stealthycat
Footballguy
no, they have massive knife violence...........they still have massive violence .......... nobody ever wanted to address that
see the problem ?
Stealthycat
Footballguy
Godsbrother
Footballguy
Stealthycat
Footballguy
Is the problem with drunk driving people having easy access to automobiles? Is the problem with obesity people having easy access to food?
Tell me ........ how many guns were sold in 2021 and how many people used those guns in the wrong way. Give me hard numbers and what % used them wrong
Godsbrother
Footballguy
What is the point? You are of the opinion that guns aren't a problem and that laws regulating them are unnecessary. We disagree and let's leave it at that.
Godsbrother
Footballguy
we have knife violence too.
I agree violent people will find a way to kill. Guns make it pretty easy though.
In any case the UK homicide rate is 1/5th of the USA. I think it is worthwhile to look into the reasons and maybe take some action to improve the situation.
KarmaPolice
Footballguy
Define "massive".
No deaths are good, but I am guessing most here would gladly take their #s vs. the UK's. I am guessing many would also rather have somebody walk into a school with a knife and ill intent vs. a bag of guns.
KarmaPolice
Footballguy
Aren't most people "law abiding citizens" right up to the point where they decide not to be and break the law?
KarmaPolice
Footballguy
The argument always turns into guns OR people, when it feels like most in here are saying Yes to both.
Stealthycat
Footballguy
the point is for you to look up facts and realize that hmmmm somewhere around 40 million guns were sold
40 million
of those legally purchased, how many were used wrong ? 5,000 ? 7,000 ? I mean legally purchased by legal to buy people and then they used them to murder other people
2,000 ?
I submit is easy gun buying is the problem, we'd have tens of thousands murder every few months. The problem is where you think it is and I'm asking you in different ways so maybe you'll see it too
Stealthycat
Footballguy
There are a lot of reasons for that 1/5th too .... its not just about one thing you know.
If strict gun laws mattered, big cities across the USA would be safer. They're not
If banning all weapons would stop all violence, prison's would be the safest places in America. They're not
The problem is the people - not the weapon
Stealthycat
Footballguy
I'm betting many of the murders where guns are used are felons that have them, illegally purchased guns by lying on forms etc
KarmaPolice
Footballguy
is there a way to find that answer out?Stealthycat said:
Stealthycat
Footballguy
The Z Machine
Footballguy
Stealthycat
Footballguy
Wachtel says one of the most common ways criminals get guns is through straw purchase sales. A straw purchase occurs when someone who may not legally acquire a firearm, or who wants to do so anonymously, has a companion buy it on their behalf. According to a 1994 ATF study on "Sources of Crime Guns in Southern California," many straw purchases are conducted in an openly "suggestive" manner where two people walk into a gun store, one selects a firearm, and then the other uses identification for the purchase and pays for the gun. Or, several underage people walk into a store and an adult with them makes the purchases. Both of these are illegal activities.
Another large source of guns used in crimes are unlicensed street dealers who either get their guns through illegal transactions with licensed dealers, straw purchases, or from gun thefts.
so the most common ways are illegal already - thank you -fish-
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-fish-
Footballguy
If we had a national gun registry and/or the ATF were allowed to maintain a searchable database, this would be quite simple. The NRA literally wrote the laws that were passed to prevent these two things that law enforcement could rely on to track and prevent gun crimes.
Max Power
Footballguy
KarmaPolice
Footballguy
-fish-
Footballguy
-fish-
Footballguy
Wasn't he asked by Joe to stop posting things that had no backup?Gotcha - I have to search to verify your claim?
Max Power
Footballguy
I mean a link would be cool, because I think you're inter-changing some important words.
A gun dealer is required by law to go through a background check process. A private seller isn't, and a private seller isnt a gun dealer.
-fish-
Footballguy
The link is up above. You chose not to read it, but are willing to argue about it anyway. Shocker. And yes, gun dealers frequently take advantage of the private seller loophole.
The Z Machine
Footballguy
Can a gun dealer simply claim they are a private seller some times?
BladeRunner
Footballguy
Max Power
Footballguy
BladeRunner
Footballguy
KarmaPolice
Footballguy
Uh, have you ever stepped back and read your railings against BLM, lefties, Marxists, etc.. ?Anti-gun zealots usually are.
You and jon come off as angry and bitter as anyone in these forums.
-fish-
Footballguy
Having to respond to repeated lies day after day, only to have the same people refuse to bother to read actual facts, can be quite frustrating. That and senseless murder. It bothers me.
BladeRunner
Footballguy
If what you were providing were actual facts instesd of the best fruit from the cherry tree, then yes I could see your point.
But your posts read like the talking points off of the DNC website.
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Max Power
Footballguy
It's a questionable source with dead links that doesnt link the ATF statistics. This part doesn't seem totally on the up and up though...
ATF officials say that only about 8% of the nation's 124,000 retail gun dealers sell the majority of handguns that are used in crimes. They conclude that these licensed retailers are part of a block of rogue entrepreneurs tempted by the big profits of gun trafficking. Cracking down on these dealers continues to be a priority for the ATF. What's needed, according to Wachtel, is better monitoring of the activities of legally licensed gun dealers.
The above is illegal and there are laws in place to stop this activity. For the ATF to claim to know this and still can't stop it indicates a level of incompetence in my eyes...
More laws the ATF doesnt enforce doesnt help the situation.
ATF officials say that only about 8% of the nation's 124,000 retail gun dealers sell the majority of handguns that are used in crimes. They conclude that these licensed retailers are part of a block of rogue entrepreneurs tempted by the big profits of gun trafficking. Cracking down on these dealers continues to be a priority for the ATF. What's needed, according to Wachtel, is better monitoring of the activities of legally licensed gun dealers.
The above is illegal and there are laws in place to stop this activity. For the ATF to claim to know this and still can't stop it indicates a level of incompetence in my eyes...
More laws the ATF doesnt enforce doesnt help the situation.
BladeRunner
Footballguy
Which is what I've been repeating ad-nauseum but they don't want to enforce the existing laws. They want to add MORE laws they won't enforce.
KarmaPolice
Footballguy
I missed this post. I agree with what you posted. I just want to be 100% clear that I am not saying that's why I focus on one over the other. My point is that in one situation I can mostly avoid it - don't join a gang, don't be involved in a drug deal, stay away from certain areas when I am vacationing, etc. There is a bit of predictability to these shootings.
The other type occurs mostly randomly and mostly involve innocent people. That is what I was getting at when I was saying the fear factor is different, and that's I why I personally don't subscribe to the "but Chicago!" line of thinking. The situations are different.
GordonGekko
Footballguy
But that's not the narrative in play.
The daily media cycle has some kind of shooting multiple times a week. Sometimes several days in a row. While I recognize there is the raw math behind all of this, it's the "narrative" that drives perception and it's perception that kills.
The truth operates as minutiae in the grand scope of whatever overall narrative is being pushed. Obviously the pandemic and the tanked economy and general social/cultural decline are major factors here but I'm Pro 2A and even I can see this just not ending well for the long term for gun owners.
Daily shootings will desensitize the masses to the tragedies ( that's not going to be fun or popular for many to hear, but it's true) but it will also line up undecideds and moderates against gun owners eventually.
Pro 2A will need to trade something to keep some of their guns. That's the hard reality of the situation. If the GOP/Conservatives/Republicans controlled Big Tech/Big Social Media/Hollywood and Big Education, maybe I could see a different pathway, but I just don't.
Stealthycat
Footballguy
no, I think you don't want to research anything for yourself
me showing you something isn't you looking for it - big difference. if you want to know the answers, research it. that's what I do when talking subjects, I'm surprised more people don't
Stealthycat
Footballguy
we already have given - over and over and over
maybe Anti- 2A needs to give something for once? Like reveal juvenile records, medical records, mental health records etc.
What we know is that laws on a piece of paper is repeated failures
What we know is banning bump stocks did nothing. Banning forearm braces did nothing. Banning certain types of bullets did nothing. Banning an accessory or certain kind/style will do nothing.
And for some reason - liberal / left / anti-gun or non-gun owners believe the same old stuff thrown out by Democrats which is ban ban ban to make a difference :(
KarmaPolice
Footballguy
Dude, you don't know the answer either. You said you "are betting" that's the case.
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