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Mass Shootings Thread


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3 hours ago, FairWarning said:

No reason 95% of the unemployed can't now.    

Sure, most of the people who are currently unemployed can work.  That's the point of unemployment insurance. 

1) If someone is a CNC operator and they get laid off, should they immediately start working as a cashier at a grocery store? Or should they take some time to find the next CNC operator or related position?

2) Unemployment compensation doesn't last forever.  If one doesn't find a new position during some set amount of time, eventually the benefits run out. 

There may be some that are content to live in poverty without doing work.  Those people will always exist.  But their children and the broader community shouldn't suffer IMO.  By giving the poor direct cash transfers, many of the worst parts of poverty are reduced.  It also allows for the free market to function better instead of centralizing the distribution of goods and services. 

Finally, for those that have ambitions beyond living in poverty, the cash transfers allows them more opportunity to pursue education or entrepreneurship through stability of income.  That stability allows for better planning for the future instead of the day by day scraping by. 

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Posted (edited)
12 minutes ago, The Z Machine said:

Sure, most of the people who are currently unemployed can work.  That's the point of unemployment insurance. 

1) If someone is a CNC operator and they get laid off, should they immediately start working as a cashier at a grocery store? Or should they take some time to find the next CNC operator or related position?

2) Unemployment compensation doesn't last forever.  If one doesn't find a new position during some set amount of time, eventually the benefits run out. 

There may be some that are content to live in poverty without doing work.  Those people will always exist.  But their children and the broader community shouldn't suffer IMO.  By giving the poor direct cash transfers, many of the worst parts of poverty are reduced.  It also allows for the free market to function better instead of centralizing the distribution of goods and services. 

Finally, for those that have ambitions beyond living in poverty, the cash transfers allows them more opportunity to pursue education or entrepreneurship through stability of income.  That stability allows for better planning for the future instead of the day by day scraping by. 

Those people would get grants thru the school, fed and state programs also.    Now if a CNC operator was laid off, I wouldn’t expect him to work as a cashier.  How about the many who fill out an application with no intent of working, just so they can keep the unemployment money rolling in?  This is very common now with the extra government money coming in.  Our economy would work better if the deadbeats would participate more than buying cheetoes.  There are $80-100k trucking jobs unfilled all over. All I heard from the left is people had to have $15/hour in the city to make it.  I guess they played all of us.

Edited by FairWarning
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7 minutes ago, FairWarning said:

Those people would get grants thru the school, fed and state programs also.    Now if a CNC operator was laid off, I wouldn’t expect him to work as a cashier.  How about the many who fill out an application with no intent of working, just so they can keep the unemployment money rolling in?  This is very common now with the extra government money coming in.  Our economy would work better if the deadbeats would participate more than buying cheetoes.  There are $80-100k trucking jobs unfilled all over. All I heard from the left is people had to have $15/hour in the city to make it.  I guess they played all of us.

Love your uplifting view of people as always.  

How much training is required for trucking? you on the hook at all for the cab?    what type of hours, and how long away from family? 

I was also listening to a pod talking about the tracking/AI/firing of delivery jobs by Amazon and other companies. 

Sounds like yet another job that treats employees like ####. I think some of the feet dragging for people getting jobs is they are realizing this and getting tired of it, not always that they are lazy and too busy eating Cheetos.  

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3 hours ago, KarmaPolice said:

Love your uplifting view of people as always.  

How much training is required for trucking? you on the hook at all for the cab?    what type of hours, and how long away from family? 

I was also listening to a pod talking about the tracking/AI/firing of delivery jobs by Amazon and other companies. 

Sounds like yet another job that treats employees like ####. I think some of the feet dragging for people getting jobs is they are realizing this and getting tired of it, not always that they are lazy and too busy eating Cheetos.  

So what job would you suggest?  

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17 hours ago, -fish- said:

you're talking to a guy that thinks more guns is the answer to gun violence, that a gun is the same as a fork, and that people born into poverty can just choose to be millionaires.   you're not going to logic your way to a rational response here.

there is no "gun violence"

gun cannot be violent - they're inanimate objects

fact is, over the last couple decades, murders/violence has fallen even though we have tens of millions more guns in hands of law abiding citizens

what say you to those facts ?

and yes, we live in a country where hard work and good decisions = success

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defunding police - not working duh --- but the first think of what this guy says first

""I’ve never seen the gun violence like this," Brooklyn Park Police Chief Craig Enevoldsen told Fox 9. "We need to come together and say when is enough, enough." "

OK so the problem is obviously guns, right ? but then he goes on to clearly show the problem is the PEOPLE doing the crimes, the revolving door problems, .... and this he asks how this is happening ?

wow

https://www.foxnews.com/us/minnesota-police-chiefs-unsustainable-crime-gun-violence

 

"You can’t tell us to go out and make traffic stops because you are seeing the speeders and the street racing, and the next day say to us you can’t do traffic stops because now horrible things are happening to people," Revering said. 

Revering, who also heads the Hennepin County Chiefs of Police Association, claimed that criminals go through a "revolving door" in courts and jails, with little time served for their crimes. Instead, they return to the streets to repeat their offenses. 

"A lot of these folks are getting out quickly and committing the same crimes again," Revering explained. "You talk about carjackings, they get out and commit carjackings again, and then we sit back and ask, ‘How this is happening?’"

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51 minutes ago, The Z Machine said:

Of course. 

and I'm guessing you would also agree everyone has challenges to face in the world - maybe they come from a poor family, a single parent family, etc right? maybe abused as a child, maybe not physically gifted, maybe they're not an IQ of 120. Maybe their school district isn't in the top 10 in their states etc right ?

we can point to MILLIONS of people who've escaped all the above and far more .... with hard work and good decisions, right ? 

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1 hour ago, The Z Machine said:

Of course. 

Not sure why that is even a question.  

Saying something is x% harder for someone is not saying they can't or people can't overcome.  I think the question is more why would we be cool with those obstacles if we can avoid them? 

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57 minutes ago, KarmaPolice said:

Not sure why that is even a question.  

Saying something is x% harder for someone is not saying they can't or people can't overcome.  I think the question is more why would we be cool with those obstacles if we can avoid them? 

Because someone will always have it better, for all different reasons.  

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18 minutes ago, FairWarning said:

Because someone will always have it better, for all different reasons.  

Sure, there are 100s of factors that enter into the equation.  

IMO I think in these threads we have listed many things we could improve on that are controllable and impact a group way more than others.  

As to whether you don't believe they exist, don't think they should be addressed, or DGAF, I don't know.  

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Posted (edited)
50 minutes ago, KarmaPolice said:

Sure, there are 100s of factors that enter into the equation.  

IMO I think in these threads we have listed many things we could improve on that are controllable and impact a group way more than others.  

As to whether you don't believe they exist, don't think they should be addressed, or DGAF, I don't know.  

I work in the hood 2 days a week, so I see it.  All I know is throwing more money will not fix the problem.  The people who want to be helped will be.

Edited by FairWarning
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40 minutes ago, FairWarning said:

I work in the hood 2 days a week, so I see it.  All I know is throwing more money will not fix the problem.  The people who want to be helped will be.

so..  more on the DGAF end of the equation.  

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2 hours ago, KarmaPolice said:

Not sure why that is even a question.  

Saying something is x% harder for someone is not saying they can't or people can't overcome.  I think the question is more why would we be cool with those obstacles if we can avoid them? 

we can't avoid people's personal choices

if everyone in the USA would stop being violence for 10 days ... there would be no rapes, no murders, no violence ..... we can't evet make people do that for 1 hour

choices

people make them and they can use every excuse in the book but bottom line, they CHOSE to do what they do, right ?

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1 hour ago, KarmaPolice said:

IMO I think in these threads we have listed many things we could improve on that are controllable and impact a group way more than others.  

we cannot control people's choices

some people with the most obstacles achieve success and prosperity 

some people with the least obstacles achieve prison, addiction, death

 

choices

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45 minutes ago, FairWarning said:

I work in the hood 2 days a week, so I see it.  All I know is throwing more money will not fix the problem.  The people who want to be helped will be.

and that's what Democrats / liberals cannot understand

they think (I think) that if society throws money or apologies or racist advantages or whatever at a problem, then people will start behaving the way the Democrats / liberals want them to

by and large and I think that's a proven failure of a concept - look no further than big cities and the decades of Democrat leadership - failures, years after years

am I right or wrong ?

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3 minutes ago, Stealthycat said:

and that's what Democrats / liberals cannot understand

they think (I think) that if society throws money or apologies or racist advantages or whatever at a problem, then people will start behaving the way the Democrats / liberals want them to

by and large and I think that's a proven failure of a concept - look no further than big cities and the decades of Democrat leadership - failures, years after years

am I right or wrong ?

Exactly right.  The left constantly shakes down  Whirlpool here about every five years for money - nothing ever changes.  

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18 minutes ago, Stealthycat said:

we can't avoid people's personal choices

if everyone in the USA would stop being violence for 10 days ... there would be no rapes, no murders, no violence ..... we can't evet make people do that for 1 hour

choices

people make them and they can use every excuse in the book but bottom line, they CHOSE to do what they do, right ?

I have tried again with you, but you yet again glance over my actual points and keep going on with something else.   

I have listed many things that have 0 to do with choice/hard work, etc.   The post you just quoted was about removing said obstacles, but yet instead of addressing them and the point of the post it was just more of the same.  

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10 minutes ago, FairWarning said:

Exactly right.  The left constantly shakes down  Whirlpool here about every five years for money - nothing ever changes.  

What exactly do you do in "the hood".   Commish has talked about his work with the community and interactions.   Do you actually talk to people there and interact with them, or you just going there for your work? 

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Just now, KarmaPolice said:

I have tried again with you, but you yet again glance over my actual points and keep going on with something else.   

I have listed many things that have 0 to do with choice/hard work, etc.   The post you just quoted was about removing said obstacles, but yet instead of addressing them and the point of the post it was just more of the same.  

And I brought up that people in these cities demanded $15/hour for unskilled jobs which are going unfilled.  

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Just now, KarmaPolice said:

What exactly do you do in "the hood".   Commish has talked about his work with the community and interactions.   Do you actually talk to people there and interact with them, or you just going there for your work? 

I’m in sales.  I deal with store owners.  

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5 hours ago, FairWarning said:

So what job would you suggest?  

I don't have a clue.   All I am saying is that I can think of a lot of reasons why people might not be returning to the workforce.  Sure it might be because somebody is lazy or wants to play video games.   But when we talk about the jobs that are going unfulfilled, we can't really be shocked that people might not be rushing back to them.    I am not claiming to know exactly what the reason for the shift is (we haven't struggled this much getting help until this year), but I am not sure I am optimistic it changes much either.  

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2 minutes ago, KarmaPolice said:

I don't have a clue.   All I am saying is that I can think of a lot of reasons why people might not be returning to the workforce.  Sure it might be because somebody is lazy or wants to play video games.   But when we talk about the jobs that are going unfulfilled, we can't really be shocked that people might not be rushing back to them.    I am not claiming to know exactly what the reason for the shift is (we haven't struggled this much getting help until this year), but I am not sure I am optimistic it changes much either.  

I’m telling you, when you have to compete with the government in getting people off their asses, it’s a tough sell.  It’s not a inner-city deal either - its everywhere.  

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3 minutes ago, FairWarning said:

So who is holding them back?

Like I said in the next post, I can think of lots of reasons why people aren't returning - extended UBI, covid, crappy jobs, they are lazy, the last year showed them they didn't need to return (PT workers, etc.. ), did I mention most were crappy jobs? 

Honestly, I think one factor is that as the wealth gap increases between the haves and have nots, I think the idea of the American Dream is eroding.  

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Just now, KarmaPolice said:

Like I said in the next post, I can think of lots of reasons why people aren't returning - extended UBI, covid, crappy jobs, they are lazy, the last year showed them they didn't need to return (PT workers, etc.. ), did I mention most were crappy jobs? 

Honestly, I think one factor is that as the wealth gap increases between the haves and have nots, I think the idea of the American Dream is eroding.  

The American Dream is dying when people quit wanting to come here.  

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Just now, FairWarning said:

I’m telling you, when you have to compete with the government in getting people off their asses, it’s a tough sell.  It’s not a inner-city deal either - its everywhere.  

Oh, I know.   I've said where I live - I can't think of a business I have been in lately that doesn't have hiring signs.  We had to close early on the 4th because we didn't have the staff for the full hours.  

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1 minute ago, KarmaPolice said:

Oh, I know.   I've said where I live - I can't think of a business I have been in lately that doesn't have hiring signs.  We had to close early on the 4th because we didn't have the staff for the full hours.  

I feel it in my check, places shortening hours and closing so the staff doesn’t get burned out.  Less hours to sell.

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2 minutes ago, FairWarning said:

I feel it in my check, places shortening hours and closing so the staff doesn’t get burned out.  Less hours to sell.

I bet you do.   

We were talking about the same thing.  The staff that we still have are working more, and we are actually busy as hell (broke and re-broke our daily record 5 times in the last month), so it's even more stressful than a normal summer.  

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On 7/8/2021 at 11:30 AM, Stealthycat said:

I have had guns all my life and I've never killed a person

Tell me why

Umm.. you haven't decided to shoot at anyone? That is a nice deflection but it still doesn't address the fact that the gun was invented to kill things more efficiently - a car was not.

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Posted (edited)
2 minutes ago, rcam said:

Umm.. you haven't decided to shoot at anyone? That is a nice deflection but it still doesn't address the fact that the gun was invented to kill things more efficiently - a car was not.

What about bow and arrows?  Spears?  Who cares, really.  It's irrelevant.

Should people not be able to defend themselves?

Note: You don't have to answer the question - I already know your answer.

Edited by BladeRunner
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6 minutes ago, FairWarning said:

The American Dream is dying when people quit wanting to come here.  

IMO that is two different things.   

What I think of is:  good job/benefits, able to afford a good house, car, send the kids to college if need be, decent retirement, and it used to be had with typically 1 parent working.   I am a bit jaded from our experiences, but what I see is:  both parents working to make ends meet, benefits are bad, people aren't able to save, maybe able to help with the exploding college costs, etc.    I don't think it's quite as easy of a sell as it once was, and like I said - the gap between the have and have nots only gets bigger.   That's what I think is dying off.    I get that people still want to come here, because despite that post, what we have is still better than where they are coming from.   

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2 minutes ago, rcam said:

Umm.. you haven't decided to shoot at anyone? That is a nice deflection but it still doesn't address the fact that the gun was invented to kill things more efficiently - a car was not.

sounds like he's wasted a lot of money on the guns he's purchased for self defense.  turns out it was completely unnecessary--just like statistics show.  

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1 hour ago, FairWarning said:

I work in the hood 2 days a week, so I see it.  All I know is throwing more money will not fix the problem.  The people who want to be helped will be.

You know this how? 

And when you say you, "work in the hood," in what capacity? Are you working in a service organization helping the poor?

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56 minutes ago, FairWarning said:

I’m in sales.  I deal with store owners.  

 

3 minutes ago, The Z Machine said:

You know this how? 

And when you say you, "work in the hood," in what capacity? Are you working in a service organization helping the poor?

 

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Posted (edited)
7 minutes ago, The Z Machine said:

You know this how? 

And when you say you, "work in the hood," in what capacity? Are you working in a service organization helping the poor?

Seems like you're looking for a reason to eliminate his opinion.   Seems like you're going to keep asking questions until you find one he can't answer so you can say, "You don't really work in the hood".

How about just take him at his word?   @FairWarning hasn't given you any reason NOT to believe him.

Edited by BladeRunner
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Posted (edited)
40 minutes ago, BladeRunner said:

Seems like you're looking for a reason to eliminate his opinion.   Seems like you're going to keep asking questions until you find one he can't answer so you can say, "You don't really work in the hood".

How about just take him at his word?   @FairWarning hasn't given you any reason NOT to believe him.

It's not that I don't think he's sincere, but our experiences color our views. I was just wondering where he was coming from. 

Edited by The Z Machine
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10 hours ago, KarmaPolice said:

IMO that is two different things.   

What I think of is:  good job/benefits, able to afford a good house, car, send the kids to college if need be, decent retirement, and it used to be had with typically 1 parent working.   I am a bit jaded from our experiences, but what I see is:  both parents working to make ends meet, benefits are bad, people aren't able to save, maybe able to help with the exploding college costs, etc.    I don't think it's quite as easy of a sell as it once was, and like I said - the gap between the have and have nots only gets bigger.   That's what I think is dying off.    I get that people still want to come here, because despite that post, what we have is still better than where they are coming from.   

Unfortunately part of this is our fault also as we as a people live over our heads also.  Your point is correct though.

8 hours ago, The Z Machine said:

It's not that I don't think he's sincere, but our experiences color our views. I was just wondering where he was coming from. 

I’ve had the same job basically in the same area for 30 years.    The people who can leave, do so.  

8 hours ago, The Z Machine said:
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11 hours ago, BladeRunner said:

What about bow and arrows?  Spears?  Who cares, really.  It's irrelevant.

Should people not be able to defend themselves?

Note: You don't have to answer the question - I already know your answer.

Yeah, I have no issue with people owning guns. I take issue with them thinking a gun is being misused when it is used to kill something and then compare the use of said weapon to a car.

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14 hours ago, FairWarning said:

I’m telling you, when you have to compete with the government in getting people off their asses, it’s a tough sell.  It’s not a inner-city deal either - its everywhere.  

Good argument in favor of UBI.

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