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Mileage Tax (1 Viewer)

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Bucsfan5493

Footballguy
https://twitter.com/therecount/status/1375448566865485833?s=21
 

What are people’s thoughts on this?

I honestly am not too educated on this topic but at first glance it’s not something I think I’d support at the moment. As much as I would love to encourage more people to use public transportation, I don’t believe our infrastructure is anywhere good enough yet to install a tax like this. Seems too many low income people who travel far for work because they can’t afford where their office is would be negatively effected by this with our current infrastructure.

 
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Bucsfan5493 said:
https://twitter.com/therecount/status/1375448566865485833?s=21
 

What are people’s thoughts on this?

I honestly am not too educated on this topic but at first glance it’s not something I think I’d support at the moment. As much as I would love to encourage more people to use public transportation, I don’t believe our infrastructure is anywhere good enough yet to install a tax like this. Seems too many low income people who travel far for work because they can’t afford where their office is would be negatively effected by this with our current infrastructure.
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There's probably a logical reason but to me this is already essentially done via gas tax.  I guess the concern is then electric is not paying their fair share?

Electric aside the gas tax would seem like a better vehicle (no pun intended) as it hits both miles as well as inefficiency (SUV's and 12 cylinder Ferarri's essentially taxed more)..

 
djmich said:
There's probably a logical reason but to me this is already essentially done via gas tax.  I guess the concern is then electric is not paying their fair share?

Electric aside the gas tax would seem like a better vehicle (no pun intended) as it hits both miles as well as inefficiency (SUV's and 12 cylinder Ferarri's essentially taxed more)..
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Thats exactly why. To replace the gas tax 

 
djmich said:
Thanks supermike, I'm too damn lazy to read the link (I actually speed skimmed it yesterday when I saw it) so will wait for others to probably address some of what I'm thinking...lol
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I used to attend a monthly state of Michigan transportation forum and this was brought up constantly.  The loss of gas tax revenue to electric vehicles and how to recover it.  Mileage tax was always the top idea 

 
supermike80 said:
I used to attend a monthly state of Michigan transportation forum and this was brought up constantly.  The loss of gas tax revenue to electric vehicles and how to recover it.  Mileage tax was always the top idea 
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Interesting, thanks for the context. If this replaces the gas tax, that seems like a good thing then or am I missing something? (genuinely asking) I would think we’d want electric car owners paying their fair share especially since electric cars tend to be more expensive and are probably disproportionately owned by wealthy people.

 
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Bucsfan5493 said:
Interesting, thanks for the context. If this replaces the gas tax, that seems like a good thing then or am I missing something? (genuinely asking) I would think we’d want electric car owners paying their fair share especially since I’d imagine they tend to be wealthier people.
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Alternatively, bump up the gas tax and increase incentive to go electric...which we all want.  Eventually you'll need to replace the revenue but if electric is so great I'm assuming there are cost offsets somewhere for the government.

Or putting my PSF hat on...just take the difference from Mark Zuckerberg and we're all set.

 
djmich said:
Alternatively, bump up the gas tax and increase incentive to go electric...which we all want.  Eventually you'll need to replace the revenue but if electric is so great I'm assuming there are cost offsets somewhere for the government.

Or putting my PSF hat on...just take the difference from Mark Zuckerberg and we're all set.
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I love the idea of encouraging electric cars, but my only concern there is isn’t it expensive to get an electric car? It seems like we might be screwing over lower income people who probably would definitely get an electric car if they could but just can’t afford one.

 
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Bucsfan5493 said:
I love the idea of encouraging electric cars, but my only concern there is isn’t it expensive to get an electric car? It seems like we might be screwing over lower income people who probably would definitely get an electric car if they could but just can’t afford one.
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Good question.  I'd hope that electric gets cheaper with more scale and goes beyond Tesla.  Also...they are paying not just less in fuel costs because cheaper than gas they are paying no taxes to travel.  So I'd hope it nets out closer.

Or...encourages mass transit and ride sharing more.

There may be some trade-offs, nothing is ever absolute zero impact.  Maybe some do need to be offset.  Pollution supposedly disproportionately harms lower income households so I think this would be a positive for lower income people.

 
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Bucsfan5493 said:
I love the idea of encouraging electric cars, but my only concern there is isn’t it expensive to get an electric car? It seems like we might be screwing over lower income people who probably would definitely get an electric car if they could but just can’t afford one.
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Those with sufficieny resources will adjust to minimize their tax burden, whether it's with the type of vehicle or opting against commuting. Those lacking resources have less options. 

 
I wouldn't mind this if it were in addition to the gas tax, not a replacement of the gas tax.  We should be taxing gasoline regardless because it's a major source of carbon emissions and we need people to face the correct incentives to weigh fuel efficiency in their purchase decisions.  Switching to a mileage tax is bad environmental policy.

 
Bucsfan5493 said:
Interesting, thanks for the context. If this replaces the gas tax, that seems like a good thing then or am I missing something? (genuinely asking) I would think we’d want electric car owners paying their fair share especially since electric cars tend to be more expensive and are probably disproportionately owned by wealthy people.
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It involves tracking.  Which makes people all whiny

 
IvanKaramazov said:
I wouldn't mind this if it were in addition to the gas tax, not a replacement of the gas tax.  We should be taxing gasoline regardless because it's a major source of carbon emissions and we need people to face the correct incentives to weigh fuel efficiency in their purchase decisions.  Switching to a mileage tax is bad environmental policy.
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From Pete's comments it doesn't appear like it's a way to replace gas tax revenue lost as EV's replace ICE-mobiles.

It appears to be on top of existing gas tax to pay for new infrastructure upgrades. To go hand-in-hand with Biden's other tax hikes.

 
supermike80 said:
It involves tracking.  Which makes people all whiny
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Nevermind the we are being followed fears. The tracking aspect is dumb because it is a new way to have to track a tax. 

All they need to do is increase the gas tax and then put an annual tax on electric vehicles. The only people that "skate through" here then are electric vehicles that drive a ton of miles(which is difficult and crazy rare). 

The damage this subset causes to roads and actually leads to more construction costs is zero dollars. 

 
If heavy duty trucks convert to electric youre talking about a massive loss of fuel tax revenue.  Has to be made up somewhere 

 
So long as they use the money to properly fund transit and walking/biking initiatives. We should try and reduce miles driven as much as possible but unless the alternatives are viable I don't blame folks for their gas guzzling choices. 

 
the moops said:
So long as they use the money to properly fund transit and walking/biking initiatives. We should try and reduce miles driven as much as possible but unless the alternatives are viable I don't blame folks for their gas guzzling choices. 
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This isn't relevant to the topic but sure

 
I like incentivizing EV purchases with tax credits. Then a mileage tax or fees on licensing seems fair way to continue to get revenue.

 
Whats interesting is that there seems to be liberal support but unless done extremely carefully this is likely a very regressive tax.

 
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djmich said:
Whats interesting is that there seems to be liberal support but unless done extremely carefully this is like a very regressive tax.
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Just keep issuing stimulus/UBI/whatever-you-want-to-call-them checks to people under $50K. It's what the Dems are going to do anyway.

 
I don't see any reasonable way to implement.  Are you really going to retrofit the hundreds of million vehicles on the road today, and except them to not be tampered with? 

 
rockaction said:
Not really, but we're not collecting information about how much you traveled in order to levy a tax on me with tolls, are we?

Is there something I'm missing here?
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I’m not sure how they propose getting this mileage travelled but toll bridges, traffic cams, etc track cars movements everywhere. On my commute I pay tolls via a sticker on my windshield. 

Agree with post upthread that this seems difficult to implement.

A balance of heavier licensing fees for EVs and gas tax seem better way to achieve this at the moment. 

 
The General said:
I’m not sure how they propose getting this mileage travelled but toll bridges, traffic cams, etc track cars movements everywhere. On my commute I pay tolls via a sticker on my windshield. 

Agree with post upthread that this seems difficult to implement.

A balance of heavier licensing fees for EVs and gas tax seem better way to achieve this at the moment. 
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That's right. You get automatic tickets and stuff now, too, if you're in the wrong commuter lane and stuff.

Back five years ago, tolls in MA were still cash in certain areas, so I wasn't really thinking about the decals and things like Smart Pass, etc.

That said, I still find the proposal to require a sort of monitoring without real consent. I know it's technically a privilege to be able to travel roads in a car, but that sort of reasoning has always been based on statist reasoning, IMO, and it undercuts basic notions of privacy and anonymity.

 
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rockaction said:
That's right. You get automatic tickets and stuff now, too if you're in the wrong commuter lane and stuff.

Back five years ago, tolls in MA were still cash in certain areas, so I wasn't really thinking about the decals and things like Smart Pass, etc.

That said, I still find the proposal to require a sort of monitoring without real consent. I know it's technically a privilege to be able to travel roads in a car, but that sort of reasoning has always been based on statist reasoning, IMO, and it undercuts basic notions of privacy and anonymity.
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While not a fan of the auto tolls initially I recognize now it’s definitely the best way to collect the money from a practical stand point.

Taxing by use is fair just have to figure out the best way.

For me them tracking this is a larger issue (from a logistics problem)  than the implications of them knowing how far I drive.

But I get the concerns of the slow creep of expansion of data collection. 

I also am a fan of the government encouraging better practices through incentivizing.

 
supermike80 said:
Thats exactly why. To replace the gas tax 
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Well then....at least all of the gas taxes will go away....right?

He's only going to tax the rich.
I heard him say so.

 
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I certainly don't want an additional tax for how much I drive.  I sure as hell don't want the government tracking my driving habits.  I don't know how they would do it. 

 Will it raise money for infrastructure? Of course.  

Will it massively push people towards public transit?  I don't know that it will.  Places like New York and Chicago--a lot of people already utilize those services.  Me in Kentucky--not a lot of public transportation floating around.  Maybe people are more inclined to fly to their vacation rather than drive.  

A lot of talk has been about how Americans are struggling and how we need to get money into their hands to stimulate the economy.  I'm not sure why we're cutting 1400$ checks to "help them" and then creating more taxes right after that.  Does.  Not.  Compute.

 
jm192 said:
I certainly don't want an additional tax for how much I drive.  I sure as hell don't want the government tracking my driving habits.  I don't know how they would do it. 

 Will it raise money for infrastructure? Of course.  

Will it massively push people towards public transit?  I don't know that it will.  Places like New York and Chicago--a lot of people already utilize those services.  Me in Kentucky--not a lot of public transportation floating around.  Maybe people are more inclined to fly to their vacation rather than drive.  

A lot of talk has been about how Americans are struggling and how we need to get money into their hands to stimulate the economy.  I'm not sure why we're cutting 1400$ checks to "help them" and then creating more taxes right after that.  Does.  Not.  Compute.
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Not many cities in the US like NY, where its so densely populated.  It works well in places like China and Japan because of ther size of the cities in a confined area.   Lets say the driving this year is down like last year and people decide to work from home - will they tax internet usage to make up for lost revenues?  Basically they want our money and will go to all measures to get it.  

 
I have to tell the state of Pennsylvania the mileage on my car each year to get a new registration form. Does this mean they are "tracking me?"

 
dkp993 said:
As someone who commutes 30k a year for my job the addition to the current gas tax (of which I’m already paying through the nose here in Cali) would be awful.  Hard pass
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Why don't you want to pay your fair share for usage of our infrastructure?

 
thriftyrocker said:
I have to tell the state of Pennsylvania the mileage on my car each year to get a new registration form. Does this mean they are "tracking me?"
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That's definitely one way to do it. Obviously self reporting invites lying. States that require annual inspections could include this as part of the inspection. The big issue with either method is that it doesn't account for miles driven when crossing state lines, or if a local mileage tax is implemented you can't account for miles driven in city A vs city B. Not that you couldn't do these methods as simplistic proxies, but those are easy arguments against it. 

 
The General said:
While not a fan of the auto tolls initially I recognize now it’s definitely the best way to collect the money from a practical stand point.

Taxing by use is fair just have to figure out the best way.

For me them tracking this is a larger issue (from a logistics problem)  than the implications of them knowing how far I drive.

But I get the concerns of the slow creep of expansion of data collection. 

I also am a fan of the government encouraging better practices through incentivizing.
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What better practices does this encourage??? Buy an electric vehicle so you can pay a mileage tax?

 
FBG26 said:
That's definitely one way to do it. Obviously self reporting invites lying. States that require annual inspections could include this as part of the inspection. The big issue with either method is that it doesn't account for miles driven when crossing state lines, or if a local mileage tax is implemented you can't account for miles driven in city A vs city B. Not that you couldn't do these methods as simplistic proxies, but those are easy arguments against it. 
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It accounts for total mileage driven in any state. I have to report it to the state I live in. I'm also required to take my car in for a state inspection where they also check the mileage and tell the government. What about my rights. Next thing I will have to drive with a seatbelt on, or what I call a shoulder diaper. 

 
FBG26 said:
That's definitely one way to do it. Obviously self reporting invites lying. States that require annual inspections could include this as part of the inspection. The big issue with either method is that it doesn't account for miles driven when crossing state lines, or if a local mileage tax is implemented you can't account for miles driven in city A vs city B. Not that you couldn't do these methods as simplistic proxies, but those are easy arguments against it. 
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This is already done for trucks and they will just do it for cars next then. You will have to track your miles driven in various places. Some states will have higher taxes and will bill you for the difference. You will have to pay an annual license to be able to drive in those areas will be the next step. 

This should be fought at every turn and the money to be raised should be done through the already existing means. No new departments. No new laws. No new permits to file annually and things to track. 

 
parasaurolophus said:
This is already done for trucks and they will just do it for cars next then. You will have to track your miles driven in various places. Some states will have higher taxes and will bill you for the difference. You will have to pay an annual license to be able to drive in those areas will be the next step. 

This should be fought at every turn and the money to be raised should be done through the already existing means. No new departments. No new laws. No new permits to file annually and things to track. 
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Next thing they will put a radio emitter in my car and charge my credit card every time I pass over a bridge or drive down a certain road. Oh right, they already do this. 

 
djmich said:
Why don't you want to pay your fair share for usage of our infrastructure?
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I absolutely do already via the exorbitant state and property taxes, some of the highest in the country gas tax and my federal income tax bracket.  It’s covered.  

 
jm192 said:
No.  Do tolls track how many miles you've driven?  It's not the same.
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My point was they are tracking your movement already.

My issue with this would be much more with how it could be done than concerns that they knew how many miles I drove. 

 
parasaurolophus said:
What better practices does this encourage??? Buy an electric vehicle so you can pay a mileage tax?
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I was referring to tax breaks to encourage buying an EV.

Because you have an EV though doesn’t mean you get to avoid taxes for road maintenance that have been established from gas tax.

 
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