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Hate Crimes Against Asians Rising -- Debates Within About Reportage And Race Of Perpetrators (1 Viewer)

The Right.

My rant above was focused on The Left.  Just to be clear The Right blows too.  Rather than use data to identify areas of opportunity, to continue progress (while also showing how far we have come), they far too often use it to create animosity and distrust.  Its a viscous cycle, we are the hamsters and spinning on the same wheel of stupidity.

 
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supermike80 said:
I don't like the "hate crime" thing..at all.

Anyone kicking another person in the head, regardless of color, should be charged with a hate crime.    It's yet another silly distinction that is being used when it shouldn't be.
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Disagree here especially after hearing the audio ("you don't belong here"). With that comment, this seems pretty clearly a racially motivated attack IMO. I respect your view though because you haven't mentioned race once in this thread. Much respect for consistency in your position regardless of who the attacker/victim is.

 
Dinsy Ejotuz said:
The General said:
Gotcha. The story is calling this a hate crime and there are pictures of the guy and he’s clearly black.

Odd thing to focus on when some lady just got their head kicked in by some giant ####### but noted. 
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It's important to keep the real victims in mind at a time like this.
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How does scoring for stuff like this work when you guys make these posts? Is there an app on your phones that gives you magic virtue points?

 
bigbottom said:
There have been a number of high profile videos showing African-American attackers, so I don’t really understand the assumption that the attackers are all white. Is that truly a widely held assumption, or are people just assuming that it’s a widely held assumption when in fact it may be more of a vocal minority who aren’t familiar with the details? I don’t know.  But I can tell you that the people I know in the Asian community are aware that the hate is coming from a diverse group.

Also, perhaps a technical point, but of the 20 arrested in the excerpt above, eight were white. But of those eight, two were non-Hispanic white.
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Seems this goes in cycles for certain things.  Race related crimes, people assume white perps.  Terroristic type things...people assume Islamic.  Just a sad reality of how people (especially on social media) react.

 
Bucsfan5493 said:
Disagree here especially after hearing the audio ("you don't belong here"). With that comment, this seems pretty clearly a racially motivated attack IMO. I respect your view though because you haven't mentioned race once in this thread. Much respect for consistency in your position regardless of who the attacker/victim is.
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Again, that could be anyone to anyone...I don't think it should be given "extra" whatever...because of the race of the folks.   If a white guy did that to a white buy, I would expect everyone to be changed with the same thing

 
sho nuff said:
Seems this goes in cycles for certain things.  Race related crimes, people assume white perps.  Terroristic type things...people assume Islamic.  Just a sad reality of how people (especially on social media) react.
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Sort of.  It is human behavior to absorb data and then make assumptions based on that data.  It doesn't have to be a bad thing...as with everything in life it depends on how the data is used.

If a plane blows up over NY I'm going to assume islamic.  I have a really good datapoint to reference.

If a school shooting occurs and five kids killed I'm going to assume a white guy.  I have datapoints to reference (and I actually think they are largely accurate but could be wrong here).

The point is, I don't think we can remove data.  I don't think we can remove bias, particularly that created by data.  But we can be aware of it.  We can speak about correlations constructively.  We can acknowledge data without using it to paint all people under a certain category with the same broad stoke.  We can use the information constructively...I know we can't and thats the problem...but we could 😉  

 
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supermike80 said:
Again, that could be anyone to anyone...I don't think it should be given "extra" whatever...because of the race of the folks.   If a white guy did that to a white buy, I would expect everyone to be changed with the same thing
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I get your point, anyone who randomly kicks a 65 year old women in the head multiple times should be punished to the fullest extent regardless of what the motives were. Completely agree.

But, given that the two people involved were different races and there does appear to be an increase in anti-Asian hate crimes, I think it needs to at least be acknowledged. A white guy saying "you don't belong here" to another white guy (or any two people of the same race) would be a pretty random insult. Guess it could happen, but seems like an unlikely interaction to me lol.

 
djmich said:
Sort of.  It is human behavior to absorb data and then make assumptions based on that data.  It doesn't have to be a bad thing...as with everything in life it depends on how the data is used.

If a plane blows up over NY I'm going to assume islamic.  I have a really good datapoint to reference.

If a school shooting occurs and five kids killed I'm going to assume a white guy.  I have datapoints to reference (and I actually think they are largely accurate but could be wrong here).

The point is, I don't think we can remove data.  I don't think we can remove bias, particularly that created by data.  But we can be aware of it.  We can speak about correlations constructively.  We can acknowledge data without using it to paint all people under a certain category with the same broad stoke.  We can use the information constructively...I know we can't and thats the problem...but we could 😉  
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Definitely...good posting here.

 
supermike80 said:
I don't like the "hate crime" thing..at all.

Anyone kicking another person in the head, regardless of color, should be charged with a hate crime.    It's yet another silly distinction that is being used when it shouldn't be.
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How do you feel about "terrorism"?  We tack on the narrative of terrorism in certain instances of crime.

I'm one who's on the fence in regards to classifying "hate crime" but for some reason  ...it feels more like terrorism than acts of (for lack of better words) opportunistic crimes. 

 
Bucsfan5493 said:
I get your point, anyone who randomly kicks a 65 year old women in the head multiple times should be punished to the fullest extent regardless of what the motives were. Completely agree.

But, given that the two people involved were different races and there does appear to be an increase in anti-Asian hate crimes, I think it needs to at least be acknowledged. A white guy saying "you don't belong here" to another white guy (or any two people of the same race) would be a pretty random insult. Guess it could happen, but seems like an unlikely interaction to me lol.
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I don't care.   Shouldn't change the crime or the punishment is my point.   

 
Thunderlips said:
How do you feel about "terrorism"?  We tack on the narrative of terrorism in certain instances of crime.

I'm one who's on the fence in regards to classifying "hate crime" but for some reason  ...it feels more like terrorism than acts of (for lack of better words) opportunistic crimes. 
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What?  How do I feel about terrorism?  I am against it?   :shrug:

 
Thunderlips said:
How do you feel about "terrorism"?  We tack on the narrative of terrorism in certain instances of crime.

I'm one who's on the fence in regards to classifying "hate crime" but for some reason  ...it feels more like terrorism than acts of (for lack of better words) opportunistic crimes. 
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I just see it as trying to distinguish intent/motivation.   I could kick somebody in the head at a bar in a fight - that's not a hate crime.  If I purposely kick a woman or Asian on the bus out of the blue because they are a woman or Asian, well then...      

I think it's an important distinction, and it should get a harsher punishment.  

 
KarmaPolice said:
I just see it as trying to distinguish intent/motivation.   I could kick somebody in the head at a bar in a fight - that's not a hate crime.  If I purposely kick a woman or Asian on the bus out of the blue because they are a woman or Asian, well then...      

I think it's an important distinction, and it should get a harsher punishment.  
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It is difficult for me to disagree with this more.   We need to STOP creating differences between the races.  If we don't, we will never ever get past racism in this country, ever.  

 
Bucsfan5493 said:
Now going off of your point, coming from the people who claim to be so tired of talking about race, it's pretty bizarre how much they bring it up, huh? Do they think they're being slick about it or something? Because it's pretty damn clear they have zero problem talking about race, it all depends which one it is and what the scenario is.
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You dont get to have your cake and eat it too. People that think race is overblown arent being hypocritical when they point out how the media and people like you want race to be all hush hush when it doesnt suit your agenda. 

Rock didn't bring this up because he wants to talk about race. He brought it up to point out how stupid the arguments from the left are about race because they are just lies. If those bs stories never happened, you think rock starts this thread? 

I mean jesus christ, even in the WaPo story about this incident they bring up trump calling it the china virus after of course they spent half the story talking bout how the scurity guard didnt help. Meanwhile blacktivists are out there calling asians white adjacent, the freaking school board commissioner in SF has referred to them as house N-words, they have pushed to reduce asian enrollment in elite schools, blame white people for black hatred of asians because white people prop up asians as the model minority, and on and on. 

So yeah, sure black guy beats up an asian woman because of trump, even though the assault statistics against asians from 2018 (you know, before china virus) show that blacks committed more assaults against asians than whites despite being a much smaller % of the population. 

And somehow, somehow, you think that it is an issue that people point out this insane hypocrisy and flat out misinformation campaign. Anybody questioning the validity of the discussion rock brought up here(or anybody else bringing it up) is either a partisan hack or delusional.

You can pick your lane.

 
KarmaPolice said:
why is so hard to link things?  I was looking around this week after Atlanta, and mostly what I found was general hate crime stats that I talked about with another poster, which was a mix.   I saw another random study from England that skewed heavy white when the crime was based on race, but didn't find much from US that extrapolate stats when race was the motivation for the hate crimes.  
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Probably because no links exist that back up his claim that most hate crimes against Asians in this country are committed by black people. You can point to individual cities (like Oakland where most residents are black) or cherry picked years in other cities, but I seriously doubt that the actual national stats on hate crimes against Asians show that (but if someone wants to provide a link to disprove that, I welcome it). 

 
rockaction said:
Oh, I'm focused on more than that. It just seemed this angle was relevant to the PSF given the things we discuss and the identity politics that go along with the mainstream media.

No, this guy was a giant jackass and deserves what he gets in a court of law. The security guards are disgusting in their inaction, especially at the end where they shut the door to make sure she can't get into the building, which is why I put the Kitty Genovese reference in there. I get why they wouldn't help while the guy was around, but to not administer aid is befouled.
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Not a single sheep dog in that video.    Just sheep's and other wolves.

 
Bucsfan5493 said:
Now going off of your point, coming from the people who claim to be so tired of talking about race, it's pretty bizarre how much they bring it up, huh? Do they think they're being slick about it or something? Because it's pretty damn clear they have zero problem talking about race, it all depends which one it is and what the scenario is.
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What people.  Is there a group doing that?

 
Assault on the elderly?

A misoginistic assault because he hates women?

A class assault if he percieved her as rich and himself as poor?

If he is found and arrested will he be released without bond?  

 
supermike80 said:
It is difficult for me to disagree with this more.   We need to STOP creating differences between the races.  If we don't, we will never ever get past racism in this country, ever.  
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This isn't like it's the lefty media making this distinction, this is law enforcement.    

Not just about race as I said - it's about gender, sexual identity, religion.    I don't know why you would want to treat my two examples exactly the same.   I would hope intent is taken in consideration and all crime isn't lumped together.  

 
KarmaPolice said:
This isn't like it's the lefty media making this distinction, this is law enforcement.    

Not just about race as I said - it's about gender, sexual identity, religion.    I don't know why you would want to treat my two examples exactly the same.   I would hope intent is taken in consideration and all crime isn't lumped together.  
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Yeah I  disagree again.   Completely and totally.  Murder is murder.  I don't think race should play a role.  We are all equal

 
parasaurolophus said:
You dont get to have your cake and eat it too. People that think race is overblown arent being hypocritical when they point out how the media and people like you want race to be all hush hush when it doesnt suit your agenda. 

Rock didn't bring this up because he wants to talk about race. He brought it up to point out how stupid the arguments from the left are about race because they are just lies. If those bs stories never happened, you think rock starts this thread? 

I mean jesus christ, even in the WaPo story about this incident they bring up trump calling it the china virus after of course they spent half the story talking bout how the scurity guard didnt help. Meanwhile blacktivists are out there calling asians white adjacent, the freaking school board commissioner in SF has referred to them as house N-words, they have pushed to reduce asian enrollment in elite schools, blame white people for black hatred of asians because white people prop up asians as the model minority, and on and on. 

So yeah, sure black guy beats up an asian woman because of trump, even though the assault statistics against asians from 2018 (you know, before china virus) show that blacks committed more assaults against asians than whites despite being a much smaller % of the population. 

And somehow, somehow, you think that it is an issue that people point out this insane hypocrisy and flat out misinformation campaign. Anybody questioning the validity of the discussion rock brought up here(or anybody else bringing it up) is either a partisan hack or delusional.

You can pick your lane.
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His whole take is dumb. My point it i am SICK Of hearing about race.   So I bring it up because I'm tired of it.  I guess the post I made should say I am sick of hearing about it, rather than I am sick of talking about it.  Just a weird take period.  But this is the PSF, par for the course.

 
KarmaPolice said:
Also not just talking about murder, but whatever.   Talking past each other as usual.  
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Well of course not JUST murder.  There isn't enough room really for me to list every single crime that exists, so I used murder as an example.   I apologize if that wasn't descriptive enough for you.

 
If this hadn't been going on since at least the L.A. riots, then I'd listen to contrary opinions on the matter. Fact is, we have a nation full of kids that believe this type of violence is acceptable because everybody is afraid to talk about blacks as the perpetrators of crimes and that they're often horrible racists towards other ethnic groups, including white people. It's too bad if people don't like it, but our hall pass to their culture comes back to bite others when it comes to tolerance and existence. Check this one out, from a hero of pop culture and N.W.A.'s finest. This is what we've lionized as okay with our youth, because the media and the zeitgeist is too afraid to hold blacks accountable for what they say and do as far as racial ugliness goes...

Here we go:

Every time I wanna go get a ####in' brew
I gotta go down to the store with the two
Oriental one penny countin' mother####ers
That make a ##### mad enough to cause a little ruckus
Thinkin' every brother in the world's out to take
So they watch every damn move that I make
They hope I don't pull out a gat and try to rob
They funky little store, but, #####, I got a job
"Look, you little Chinese mother####er
I ain't tryin' to steal none of yo' ####, leave me alone!"
"Mother #### you!"
Yo, yo, check it out
So don't follow me up and down your market
Or your little chop suey ###'ll be a target
Of the nationwide boycott
Juice with the people, that's what the boy got
So pay respect to the black fist
Or we'll burn your store right down to a crisp
And then we'll see ya
Cause you can't turn the ghetto into black Korea

"Mother #### you!"

 - Ice Cube, "Black Korea"

 
supermike80 said:
Well of course not JUST murder.  There isn't enough room really for me to list every single crime that exists, so I used murder as an example.   I apologize if that wasn't descriptive enough for you.
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 I appreciate the discussion, just not something I thought there was that much disagreement about.    I would hope that the law and juries would take into consideration people's intent.   Saying "you kicked somebody in the head -you deserve X" doesn't leave much for nuance or help us problem solve.  

 
parasaurolophus said:
You dont get to have your cake and eat it too. People that think race is overblown arent being hypocritical when they point out how the media and people like you want race to be all hush hush when it doesnt suit your agenda. 

Rock didn't bring this up because he wants to talk about race. He brought it up to point out how stupid the arguments from the left are about race because they are just lies. If those bs stories never happened, you think rock starts this thread? 

I mean jesus christ, even in the WaPo story about this incident they bring up trump calling it the china virus after of course they spent half the story talking bout how the scurity guard didnt help. Meanwhile blacktivists are out there calling asians white adjacent, the freaking school board commissioner in SF has referred to them as house N-words, they have pushed to reduce asian enrollment in elite schools, blame white people for black hatred of asians because white people prop up asians as the model minority, and on and on. 

So yeah, sure black guy beats up an asian woman because of trump, even though the assault statistics against asians from 2018 (you know, before china virus) show that blacks committed more assaults against asians than whites despite being a much smaller % of the population. 

And somehow, somehow, you think that it is an issue that people point out this insane hypocrisy and flat out misinformation campaign. Anybody questioning the validity of the discussion rock brought up here(or anybody else bringing it up) is either a partisan hack or delusional.

You can pick your lane.
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People like me? The one who was literally just going back and forth with someone on why I think this crime was clearly racially motivated and it’s important that it’s considered a hate crime? What exactly do you think my agenda is?

If Rock wanted to call out the left for their hypocrisy when it comes to these issues that’s totally understandable and justifiable. But he didn’t just do that. Instead he did the exact same thing the left/media does and mentioned race in both the subject and his first post, looking for a reaction. 

 
KarmaPolice said:
 I appreciate the discussion, just not something I thought there was that much disagreement about.    I would hope that the law and juries would take into consideration people's intent.   Saying "you kicked somebody in the head -you deserve X" doesn't leave much for nuance or help us problem solve.  
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I hope they don't and view it as a crime period.  Remove intent, remove race...treat everyone equally.  I certainly don't want a criminal getting a lesser sentence for bashing in a 68 year old white woman's head than he would get for basing in a 68 year old asian woman's head.  Should be the same---regardless of race, sexual orientation etc etc.

 
Bucsfan5493 said:
People like me? The one who was literally just going back and forth with someone on why I think this crime was clearly racially motivated and it’s important that it’s considered a hate crime? What exactly do you think my agenda is?

If Rock wanted to call out the left for their hypocrisy when it comes to these issues that’s totally understandable and justifiable. But he didn’t just do that. Instead he did the exact same thing the left/media does and mentioned race in both the subject and his first post, looking for a reaction. 
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No I didn't. The media buries race. I've made it front and center. I have never said I was not going to talk about race. As a matter of fact, that thread that says "I'm tired of talking about race"? Not in it. Ever. My point was when it comes to Asian-American hate crimes, the news media is burying the lede and there are specific reasons why they are doing that. One is out of sensitivity towards blacks. The other is out of animus towards whites and their hate crimes. So long as they can keep one front and center and the other in the background, they will do so. I'm simply pointing out it's a fool's errand, and a devastatingly inaccurate and telling choice.

 
Just take the case of Christopher Allen Hamner.  Google his name and read the difference in reporting.   Most of the regular new sites go out of their way to show video of separate incidents and lump them together, nary a mention of this guys background.  Only a select few with balls enough to point out the guy is well known for his BLM activism.  

 
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rockaction said:
No I didn't. The media buries race. I've made it front and center. I have never said I was not going to talk about race. As a matter of fact, that thread that says "I'm tired of talking about race"? Not in it. Ever. My point was when it comes to Asian-American hate crimes, the news media is burying the lede and there are specific reasons why they are doing that. One is out of sensitivity towards blacks. The other is out of animus towards whites and their hate crimes. So long as they can keep one front and center and the other in the background, they will do so. I'm simply pointing out it's a fool's errand, and a devastatingly inaccurate and telling choice.
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Yep, as I mentioned a post or two above I went back and read the thread to see most people stayed consistent with their positions or just weren’t in that thread. I probably shouldn’t have made such a generalization like that.

See, those are all fair points and I agree with you. But when you come at it from the same angle the left does and immediately reference race, it reeks of having an agenda.

 
KarmaPolice said:
 I appreciate the discussion, just not something I thought there was that much disagreement about.    I would hope that the law and juries would take into consideration people's intent.   Saying "you kicked somebody in the head -you deserve X" doesn't leave much for nuance or help us problem solve.  
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There's a long history of the right being opposed to hate crimes for a myriad of philosophical reasons, not the least of which is that there is often difficulty in attributing motive to a person's random acts of violence. In this case, we have a clear motive, in other cases, the animus isn't as clear and is muddied. So you get extra punishment for having the jury "inside your head" at the time. Never have we linked motive to punishment; it was only ever used as evidence that a crime was committed. Those are two very different, important things.

 
supermike80 said:
I hope they don't and view it as a crime period.  Remove intent, remove race...treat everyone equally.  I certainly don't want a criminal getting a lesser sentence for bashing in a 68 year old white woman's head than he would get for basing in a 68 year old asian woman's head.  Should be the same---regardless of race, sexual orientation etc etc.
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That's fair in your example.   I could be blurring you with somebody like BR that claims all crime is hate crime.   

Where I am coming from is I wouldn't want a defense crime, a bar brawl, and crime where somebody specifically targets race/sex/etc, being treated the same if the same outcome occurred.  IMO those are not the same thing.  

 
KarmaPolice said:
That's fair in your example.   I could be blurring you with somebody like BR that claims all crime is hate crime.   

Where I am coming from is I wouldn't want a defense crime, a bar brawl, and crime where somebody specifically targets race/sex/etc, being treated the same if the same outcome occurred.  IMO those are not the same thing.  
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Well OK...I want to stick to the real crime and not make stuff up.  What I saw in that video was a crime.  A horrible crime--not a hate crime.  And adding that doesn't do crap for me.  It should be treated as a horrible thing.  Actually having to add the term "hate" to it seems redundant in my opinion.

 
rockaction said:
There's a long history of the right being opposed to hate crimes for a myriad of philosophical reasons, not the least of which is that there is often difficulty in attributing motive to a person's random acts of violence. In this case, we have a clear motive, in other cases, the animus isn't as clear and is muddied. So you get extra punishment for having the jury "inside your head" at the time. Never have we linked motive to punishment; it was only ever used as evidence that a crime was committed. Those are two very different, important things.
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Correct, which is why I would assume the tag is pretty rare.  Of all the crimes committed in the U.S., only several thousand were "hate crimes" according to the FBI link.   

I for sure am not saying we search for it if it isn't there, but if we have SM postings, them shouting something during the crime, then yeah.  

 
Bucsfan5493 said:
Yep, as I mentioned a post or two above I went back and read the thread to see most people stayed consistent with their positions or just weren’t in that thread. I probably shouldn’t have made such a generalization like that.

See, those are all fair points and I agree with you. But when you come at it from the same angle the left does and immediately reference race, it reeks of having an agenda.
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I did have an agenda. To make sure the media stopped burying the racial aspect of crimes when it reported them. There's no way to do that other than go completely colorblind (which they won't and likely can't due to the desire to show pictures of the perpetrator as newsworthy and for identification purposes) or to discuss the race of the perp in each case. My point is that it's suspect when we see numerous instances of a crime committed with racial or ethnic animus and the perpetrators are a) of one race and b) that race is left out of the story. That's the agenda. It's pernicious. That's what I'm looking to correct, for the record, among right-thinking individuals.

 
rockaction said:
I did have an agenda. To make sure the media stopped burying the racial aspect of crimes when it reported them. There's no way to do that other than go completely colorblind (which they won't and likely can't due to the desire to show pictures of the perpetrator as newsworthy and for identification purposes) or to discuss the race of the perp in each case. My point is that it's suspect when we see numerous instances of a crime committed with racial or ethnic animus and the perpetrators are a) of one race and b) that race is left out of the story. That's the agenda. It's pernicious. That's what I'm looking to correct, for the record, among right-thinking individuals.
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No disagreements there. Unfortunately, the media + politicians know how much adding the race element riles people up, so I don’t see it stopping anytime soon. Both sides will continue to slant stories to fit the agenda that their people want to hear.

 
By the way, lest anyone think I'm a troglodyte about racial relations, I assure you that I'm at least partially aware of the history of exactly how racially unjust America has been to black people and especially slaves and descendants of slaves. From the absolute abject treatment of people as chattel and property, to finally the recognition of humanity among slaves; to the promise of "40 acres and a mule" for former Southern slaves that was criminally rescinded and resulted in the practice of sharecropping; to urban redlining and the shunting of blacks into property areas of lower desirability; to voter intimidation tactics in the country, to poll taxes and literacy requirements to vote, to anything that ensured a lack of participation in the voting system; to covenant housing agreements excluding blacks from suburban neighborhoods, to communities deliberately removing black people from settled housing because of property values; to anything and in between, one would be a fool to not realize that we have to reckon with our nation's past. How best to do that, I don't know. It would seem a formal apology from the government for slavery and then some form of reparations is a start, in my opinion.

So this thread is a media thread that has racial overtones. I say that let's hold everyone to the same standards culturally. Christopher Caldwell, in his latest book, writes that we have two constitutions. One that is for those who saw the Civil Rights Act of '64 as temporary until we addressed basic equality issues, and others who wanted the CRA of '64 to be more deeper and more total than the first set of people anticipated. I'm not sure what side I fall under. All I know is this: Right now, we exist in a land that expects two different things of two radically cultures. That division cannot hold long.

 
Hey @rockaction I don’t ever doubt your historical knowledge. In fact I loved your reference of Kitty Genovese in your OP. One of the reasons I enjoy your posts so much is because you know your history so well. 

 

 
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