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Declaration of War begins on the Middle Class starting Today!


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President Wants Yo Money Fool!

After not getting a dime of that stimulus or a slice of the $2Spacezillion they spent on their wealthy buddies around the Globe, this a real kick in the teeth to anyone trying to expand and make a better life. No wonder folks cave and bend to hand outs and losing their will to work. What's the point of trying to get ahead, it's a total myth. The minute you become even marginally valuable they come for your hard earned money. Do you really believe it's easy to earn $150,000-$250,0000 a year in these days we live? I get it that folks live in some areas where money goes a lot further but in the 30 Big Urban Cities where the populations live you gotta have a lot of money just to survive. Most of these cities already have State income taxes on top of Federal with just a few States that are the exception. 

It's mind boggling but I also am sure there is cheering in the streets so probably the entire tone of this thread is completely wrong but it still needs to be said how awful these proposals are that seem all but certain to be passed into law. 

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And it looks like it would be a 2.6 % marginal increase on dollars earned above $400,000. Meaning a couple earning $400k sees no increase. A couple earning $500k sees an increase of $2600. Hardly a wa

So, we are just completely ignoring all statistical data that makes it clear that 400k is definitively NOT middle class, but above it, by anywhere from a fair bit to laughably above, based on location

WTH is going on in here? Where I can I sell Swedish Fish for a $400k salary? 

3 minutes ago, Ministry of Pain said:

Do you really believe it's easy to earn $150,000-$250,0000 a year in these days we live? I get it that folks live in some areas where money goes a lot further but in the 30 Big Urban Cities where the populations live you gotta have a lot of money just to survive. Most of these cities already have State income taxes on top of Federal with just a few States that are the exception. 

What does it being easy have to do with it? It isn't easy to earn 40K in many parts of the country.

As to the bolded - the highest median household income city in the country is San Jose, at $110,000. Nobody needs 150-250K to survive. That is ludicrous

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5 minutes ago, the moops said:

What does it being easy have to do with it? It isn't easy to earn 40K in many parts of the country.

As to the bolded - the highest median household income city in the country is San Jose, at $110,000. Nobody needs 150-250K to survive. That is ludicrous

You're right, it's hard to make $40k and it's hard to make $160k depending on what you do and walk of life, not sure where you're going with this. I'm saying that it seems awful easy to just start pointing at this particular area of income and I've had several threads back in the FFA where people balked at what i think is a middle class income especially in the Urban and immediate Suburban sections of the 30 Largest Cities, I could care less what they make in Nobody Live Here'ville. 

Leaders and those who succeed shouldn't be targeted by their government. It ought be the same scale across the board, like you said, they all work equal so just set a % and those who make more will still pay more. No reason to start retroactively punishing folks for having a great run of Sales over 6 months just as an example. 

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17 minutes ago, Amused to Death said:

Is this the middle class you refer to:

White House Press Secretary Jen Psaki recently clarified the hike would apply to families earning $400,000 per year

That's $25k a month, That's $12,000 or less after taxes in some States and a family with 2-3 kids, is Mom working to make all this money, if so can we factor in day care and the whole kabodle and should this wealthy family be living in a run down community or is it likely they even own a home? It takes money to make money, so the can't really live in the projects and pull this off can they? 

It's not as much as some folks think it is and they keep lowering the ceiling when we should be lifting the ceiling. What would be too low? $100k, $250K, what number should people aspire to but not break the glass ceiling? Let's get a definition. 

Edited by Ministry of Pain
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2 minutes ago, Ministry of Pain said:

That's $25k a month, That's $12,000 or less in some States and a family with 2-3 kids, is Mom working to make all this money, if so can we factor in day care and the whole kabodle and should this wealthy family be living in a run down community or is it likely they even own a home? It takes money to make money, so the can't really live in the projects and pull this off can they? 

It's not as much as some folks think it is and they keep lowering the ceiling when we should be lifting the ceiling. What would be too low? $100k, $250K, what number should people aspire to but not break the glass ceiling? Let's get a definition. 

So we are talking about a family income of $400k as "middle class". Just so I'm clear about where the outrage lies.

Carry on.

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Any clerk selling Swedish Fish makes $40K or $20 an hour these days. All these retail grocery stores, drug stores, they're paying thru the roof right now to find help. 

$100k combined income, one person selling Swedish Fish and the other selling Kia Motors let's say. Middle class family in Urban America? Good chance to become homeowners? Can you not buy a home and still be Middle Class in 2021? 

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4 minutes ago, Ministry of Pain said:

That's $25k a month, That's $12,000 or less in some States and a family with 2-3 kids, is Mom working to make all this money, if so can we factor in day care and the whole kabodle and should this wealthy family be living in a run down community or is it likely they even own a home? It takes money to make money, so the can't really live in the projects and pull this off can they? 

It's not as much as some folks think it is and they keep lowering the ceiling when we should be lifting the ceiling. What would be too low? $100k, $250K, what number should people aspire to but not break the glass ceiling? Let's get a definition. 

Holy ####... you truly think $400k a year is middle class.

As someone who grew up in a wealthy family who would have to pay more as a result of this, I can’t stress enough how wrong you are. And the thought that those families would be struggling after those taxes is beyond laughable. 

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2 minutes ago, Bucsfan5493 said:

Holy ####... you truly think $400k a year is middle class.

As someone who grew up in a wealthy family who would have to pay more as a result of this, I can’t stress enough how wrong you are. And the thought that those families would be struggling after those taxes is beyond laughable. 

400k in San Francisco, LA, San Diego or New York is Vastly different then in Iowa, or vast swaths of the country.  In the cities I mention it's far closer to middle class then wealthy.

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28 minutes ago, Amused to Death said:

Is this the middle class you refer to:

White House Press Secretary Jen Psaki recently clarified the hike would apply to families earning $400,000 per year

Exactly...and yes...paying for it will be an issue.  But it is sorely needed.  Infrastructure has been a mess for some time now.  It got nowhere in the last several years despite having support from both sides.

 

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23 minutes ago, Amused to Death said:

Is this the middle class you refer to:

White House Press Secretary Jen Psaki recently clarified the hike would apply to families earning $400,000 per year

And it looks like it would be a 2.6 % marginal increase on dollars earned above $400,000. Meaning a couple earning $400k sees no increase. A couple earning $500k sees an increase of $2600. Hardly a war on the middle class. 

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2 minutes ago, sho nuff said:

Exactly...and yes...paying for it will be an issue.  But it is sorely needed.  Infrastructure has been a mess for some time now.  It got nowhere in the last several years despite having support from both sides.

 

I'm a bit biased and welcome the spending for, among other things, personal reasons as I work in the transportation engineering field. More work is always good.

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1 minute ago, randall146 said:

And it looks like it would be a 2.6 % marginal increase on dollars earned above $400,000. Meaning a couple earning $400k sees no increase. A couple earning $500k sees an increase of $2600. Hardly a war on the middle class. 

Facts don't matter.  Outrage!!!!

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6 minutes ago, killface said:

1.8% of tax payers make over 400k

Thread title should be changed to at least read "Upper Middle Class" or maybe "The Barely Rich Class".  How about the "Can't Quite Afford A Yacht" class?

Edited by Amused to Death
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9 minutes ago, dkp993 said:

400k in San Francisco, LA, San Diego or New York is Vastly different then in Iowa, or vast swaths of the country.  In the cities I mention it's far closer to middle class then wealthy.

Come on man... my family grew up right outside Philly. That’s not even ####### close to middle class, nor is it in any of the cities you just mentioned.

I’m not going to waste my time going through all those cities but I believe San Fran is the priciest, and the highest of their middle class tier is $196k, not even half of $400k.

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9 minutes ago, dkp993 said:

400k in San Francisco, LA, San Diego or New York is Vastly different then in Iowa, or vast swaths of the country.  In the cities I mention it's far closer to middle class then wealthy.

:no:

Bay Area residents in the 90th percentile of incomes earned $384,000 a year

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21 minutes ago, dkp993 said:

400k in San Francisco, LA, San Diego or New York is Vastly different then in Iowa, or vast swaths of the country.  In the cities I mention it's far closer to middle class then wealthy.

And I mentioned this but you said it much better. And then those cities have Millions more people in them. I think Dallas as an example has more people in it's area than the entire State of Oklahoma and I might be wrong but I believe that to be true. 

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34 minutes ago, Ministry of Pain said:

Any clerk selling Swedish Fish makes $40K or $20 an hour these days. All these retail grocery stores, drug stores, they're paying thru the roof right now to find help. 

All this info is available you know. You can look on US Bureau of Labor Statistics website.

And while they don't break it down to clerks specifically selling swedish fish, general merchandise retail salespeople make an average of $13.01 an hour

https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes412031.htm

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10 minutes ago, Amused to Death said:

Another way to frame this is the Biden tax hikes would raise approximately $2 trillion to cover the infrastructure bill without raising taxes on any household making under $400,000 annually. 

Or you could look at it another way, the Pilot walks into 1st Class and orders those few wealthy off the Plane to shed weight because the Plane is in jeopardy of going down and then after they throw those folks off or chop them in half, leave half of them in the seats and then next they start coming down into Regular Class and then it keeps working back row after row until finally your options are the Airplane Toilet or the in between seats of Fat Fred and Large Marge seated in No Class in Row 39. That's the world we're living in now, toilet or sammich seat, you're choice taxpayer. 

That's another way to frame it 😄

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Surprise, surprise, the proposed change to the cap gains tax starts only at incomes over $1MM, not $400K like marginal rates.  I'm betting that before this would pass, that gap widens or the cap gains part magically goes away.  The bait and switch with marginal rates again.

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2 minutes ago, Ministry of Pain said:

And I mentioned this but you said it much better. And then those cities have Millions more people in them. I think Dallas as an example has more people in it's area than the entire State of Oklahoma and I might be wrong but I believe that to be true. 

Yes, it is more expensive to live in cities and what's considered middle class varies depending on where you live. There is absolutely no where though in the United States where $400k is considered middle class.

Business Insider literally wrote an article about this a couple years ago about how out of touch Silicon Valley people are for believing $400k is middle class and then showing what's considered middle class in the 25 largest cities in the US.

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12 minutes ago, Bucsfan5493 said:

Come on man... my family grew up right outside Philly. That’s not even ####### close to middle class, nor is it in any of the cities you just mentioned.

I’m not going to waste my time going through all those cities but I believe San Fran is the priciest, and the highest of their middle class tier is $196k, not even half of $400k.

I live in one of those city's right now, make in the range of the OP's original post, my best friend of 25 years makes just over 400k in the same city.  I know first hand right now how far those incomes go.  I also grew up on welfare in dirt poor neighborhoods so I have perspective.  I nor my friend are anywhere near wealthy and live squarely in the upper middle class life.  Don't know what else to tell you.

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Biden’s such a liar.  White House Press Secretary Jen Psaki recently clarified the hike would apply to families earning $400,000 per year — meaning two adults who make $200,000, a seeming contradiction of Biden’s own recent statement that “if you make less than $400,000, you won’t see one single penny in additional federal tax.”

I knew this guy would do a bait and switch.

Edited by ekbeats
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2 minutes ago, the moops said:

All this info is available you know. You can look on US Bureau of Labor Statistics website.

And while they don't break it down to clerks specifically selling swedish fish, general merchandise retail salespeople make an average of $13.01 an hour

https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes412031.htm

But Moops, you gotta add stock options, 401k Candy Funds, free Pharmaceuticals, company car, gas card, gift card, credit card, eye and dental, physicals, health days, you gotta look at the whole picture, there's. lot more going on than $13 an hour. I wish they would just give them a flat $13 an hour, that would lower the costs for all of us. 

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2 minutes ago, dkp993 said:

I live in one of those city's right now, make in the range of the OP's original post, my best friend of 25 years makes just over 400k in the same city.  I know first hand right now how far those incomes go.  I also grew up on welfare in dirt poor neighborhoods so I have perspective.  I nor my friend are anywhere near wealthy and live squarely in the upper middle class life.  Don't know what else to tell you.

It isn't just about how you live your life though. Are you stashing away a bunch of retirement money? Have a house valued at a million dollars that will only appreciate? Kids college funds well stocked? New car every few years? Etc

I mean, nobody is saying that 400K is living life like the Bezos and Musks and Gates of the world, but that amount of income places you well into the top percentiles of earners

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5 minutes ago, Shula-holic said:

Surprise, surprise, the proposed change to the cap gains tax starts only at incomes over $1MM, not $400K like marginal rates.  I'm betting that before this would pass, that gap widens or the cap gains part magically goes away.  The bait and switch with marginal rates again.

Don't ruin their fun Shula ;)

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5 minutes ago, dkp993 said:

I live in one of those city's right now, make in the range of the OP's original post, my best friend of 25 years makes just over 400k in the same city.  I know first hand right now how far those incomes go.  I also grew up on welfare in dirt poor neighborhoods so I have perspective.  I nor my friend are anywhere near wealthy and live squarely in the upper middle class life.  Don't know what else to tell you.

Amen!

And I'm not at the level or break level of $400k but I also didn't get any stimulus money either so I am right with you that this amount of money doesn't go very far in many of the larger cities in the country. My brother who makes quite a living running the VA in D.C. had to move and work by remote to get back down here to Florida he finally gave up trying to buy a house in a decent neighborhood and will now be looking at RE along the Treasure Coast, probably find a 3 bed/2Bath home for Half of what it costs up there. 

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3 minutes ago, ekbeats said:

Biden’s a f’ing liar.  White House Press Secretary Jen Psaki recently clarified the hike would apply to families earning $400,000 per year — meaning two adults who make $200,000, a seeming contradiction of Biden’s own recent statement that “if you make less than $400,000, you won’t see one single penny in additional federal tax.”

I knew this guy would do a bait and switch.

We'd need to know the context of the Biden quote to know if that's a contradiction. His "you" could be an individual, a couple, or a family. 

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Just now, the moops said:

It isn't just about how you live your life though. Are you stashing away a bunch of retirement money- I am saving but no where near a bunch? Have a house valued at a million dollars that will only appreciate- Nope, not even close. But Appreciating, yes? Kids college funds well stocked- Nope, very small 529 but kid is 6 so there is hope? New car every few years- both cars are 2016's that we just bought with in the last year used obviously? Etc

I mean, nobody is saying that 400K is living life like the Bezos and Musks and Gates of the world, but that amount of income places you well into the top percentiles of earners

Please see my bolded answers above.

And again, I say upper middle class.  I love my life and am grateful and happy with it.  But I work my ### off 6 days a week and am a few missed paychecks away from having issues, and lightyears away from wealthy and not worrying about bills.  

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1 minute ago, dkp993 said:

Please see my bolded answers above.

And again, I say upper middle class.  I love my life and am grateful and happy with it.  But I work my ### off 6 days a week and am a few missed paychecks away from having issues, and lightyears away from wealthy and not worrying about bills.  

Don't need to get too specific, but is your household income 400K'ish?

-edit- I see you said you are in MOP's 200K range. That is drastically different that 400K - you should go punch your friend in the throat and tell him he is an idiot with his money :)

Edited by the moops
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3 minutes ago, randall146 said:

We'd need to know the context of the Biden quote to know if that's a contradiction. His "you" could be an individual, a couple, or a family. 

Oh great. Cue the Liberal word gymnastics.  He said it several times, and never once did he say “families”.  

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What are the chances that MoP actually read the article he is sharing?

The whole article is about corporate tax hikes.  Up to 28% from 21% (was 35% pre-Trump).  Limiting companies from creating shell companies where they operate in the US while being "based out of" the Caribbean to avoid paying taxes, etc.

The rest of the stuff is just barely mentioned speculation by the author.  The article even says that none of the stuff about capital gains taxes or high income individual taxes are mentioned in the fact sheet.

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4 minutes ago, ekbeats said:

Oh great. Cue the Liberal word gymnastics.  He said it several times, and never once did he say “families”.  

He just said it again - live “No one making under $400,000 will see their federal taxes going up - period.”  He better stick to this.  I don’t trust Biden or any other politician when it comes to taxes.  Been burned too many times.

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5 minutes ago, the moops said:

Don't need to get too specific, but is your household income 400K'ish?

No, I said in my other post I'm in the range with OP listed in his original post.  But also my best friend of 25 years does.  He's no where near wealth, not even close.  But he does live a nice upper middle class life.  Nice suburban neighborhood, new-ish cars but nothing fancy, yearly vacation with the family to somewhere nice, ect ect.  

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So, we are just completely ignoring all statistical data that makes it clear that 400k is definitively NOT middle class, but above it, by anywhere from a fair bit to laughably above, based on location?

We are ignoring the fact that as was pointed out, it would amount to 2.6% increase in income OVER 400k.

We are ignoring the fact that MoP just implied that clerks selling swedish fish are receiving "stock options, 401k Candy Funds, free Pharmaceuticals, company car, gas card, gift card, credit card, eye and dental, physicals, health days"?

 

We are just gonna run this on emotion and outrage, while disregarding facts... correct?  Just want to understand the parameters of this discussion.

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3 minutes ago, ekbeats said:

He just said it again - live “No one making under $400,000 will see their federal taxes going up - period.”  He better stick to this.  I don’t trust Biden or any other politician when it comes to taxes.  Been burned too many times.

Well of course it’s meaningless. Because if corporate taxes are raised they simply pass it on to the consumer anyhow. What difference does it make if your taxes go up, or if your supermarket prices go up? None whatsoever. 

But we have to do it anyhow. I mean come on man, even the most Keynesian guys among us don’t think the deficit is bottomless. 

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11 minutes ago, the moops said:

Don't need to get too specific, but is your household income 400K'ish?

-edit- I see you said you are in MOP's 200K range. That is drastically different that 400K - you should go punch your friend in the throat and tell him he is an idiot with his money :)

And again I'm not saying that 400 IS middleclass.  My original statement is bolded below.  

53 minutes ago, dkp993 said:

400k in San Francisco, LA, San Diego or New York is Vastly different then in Iowa, or vast swaths of the country.  In the cities I mention it's far closer to middle class then wealthy.

 

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Just now, timschochet said:

You really haven’t. Unless you’re over 80 years old, you haven’t encountered serious taxation and you won’t now either. 

Compared to Venezuela?  I am single and I make good money bug by no means wealthy.  I pay WAY more than my fair share.  Not that anyone cares.

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1 minute ago, dkp993 said:

And again I'm not saying that 400 IS middleclass.  My original statement is bolded below.  

 

No. 
I live in Orange County, work in LA County. If you’re making 400,000 a year you’re not “closer to middle class”. No ####### way. 

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Just now, ekbeats said:

Compared to Venezuela?  I am single and I make good money bug by no means wealthy.  I pay WAY more than my fair share.  Not that anyone cares.

“Fair share” is a pretty subjective term. 

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Just now, timschochet said:

“Fair share” is a pretty subjective term. 

It is.  And I’m not going to complain about it.  What I will complain about is if Biden doesn’t stick to his word, which many people elected him for.

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