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Declaration of War begins on the Middle Class starting Today!


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3 hours ago, Shula-holic said:

This is kind of my point about marginal rates vs cap gains earlier.  People like your friend are going to end up being the ones to pay the bill in income tax.  We all will on the corporate side through higher prices.  But he will get hit in both ways.  Meanwhile, the cap gains part vanishes into thin air.  And yet another surprise, surprise moment, it won't raise near the revenue it originally projects.

As his friend makes just over $400k, it sounds like he won’t be the one footing the bill in income tax.  

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And it looks like it would be a 2.6 % marginal increase on dollars earned above $400,000. Meaning a couple earning $400k sees no increase. A couple earning $500k sees an increase of $2600. Hardly a wa

So, we are just completely ignoring all statistical data that makes it clear that 400k is definitively NOT middle class, but above it, by anywhere from a fair bit to laughably above, based on location

WTH is going on in here? Where I can I sell Swedish Fish for a $400k salary? 

10 minutes ago, Stoneworker said:

Both 2020 Covid spending packages were bi-partisan. The $6 trillion in new spending is all Democrats.

Your logic is bizarre, at best.

Did the fed budget increase in 2018, the year after Trump's tax cuts?

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3 minutes ago, bigbottom said:

As his friend makes just over $400k, it sounds like he won’t be the one footing the bill in income tax.  

If he makes $1 more, he'll be footing more of the bill than someone making $999,000 in cap gain income.  But these plans are always designed so we don't feel sorry for those guys who make more than us so that we totally forget about the folks with exemptions and carve outs who make more than either group.

Edited by Shula-holic
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33 minutes ago, Shula-holic said:

If he makes $1 more, he'll be footing more of the bill than someone making $999,000 in cap gain income.

Agreed. And I get your point. But if Randall’s post on page 1 is correct about the marginal tax rate, a person making $750,000 will pay an extra $9,100 in income taxes under the proposal. Admittedly, I have a hard time getting too exorcised about that, particularly in light of the tax cuts passed last administration. 

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1 hour ago, Stoneworker said:

$3-4 trillion in two upcoming economic proposals.

The Yellen/Powell printing press still on fire from the $1.9 trillion Covid package.

Tax hikes on both corporations and individuals.

And Democrats wonder why they get called the party of "tax and spend"...

Not entirely accurate. People DO wonder why its just the dems labeled this. For example, as long as the tax cuts from 2018 are in place and GDP is under 3, that policy is adding 500B to our deficit every year and that was something that companies went in record saying wasnt needed and the markets werent having any problems either

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2 minutes ago, The Commish said:

Not entirely accurate. People DO wonder why its just the dems labeled this. For example, as long as the tax cuts from 2018 are in place and GDP is under 3, that policy is adding 500B to our deficit every year and that was something that companies went in record saying wasnt needed and the markets werent having any problems either

Then reverse the tax cuts to get back to even. Don't layer $6 trillion in new spending on top. 

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The middle class will go to war with an armada of Lexus SUVs while Karen throws avocados out of her moonroof and her son Bryson sits in their spacious third row seating lobbing soccer balls at their enemies.  Then they’ll watch footage of the day’s battle on their 90inch 4K TV.  
 

The greatest generation pt 2. 

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1 minute ago, Stoneworker said:

Then reverse the tax cuts to get back to even. Don't layer $6 trillion in new spending on top. 

That dosent get back to even....that just stops the digging. Thats the larger problem 

Of course the point is the GOP is no better than the Dems in this regard. Two sides of the same coin and i wish people would treat them as such

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47 minutes ago, timschochet said:

In both of the examples you offered, the answer is because the alternative would cost us more. I happen to agree with that argument; you may not. 

As of 2019, over 6 trillion post 9/11 in the Middle East/Asia.

If we had spent that money on OUR country , how would that cost us more? 

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4 hours ago, timschochet said:

Putting aside everything else, I don’t think you should be using this sort of slang. It’s pretty offensive. 

"I pity the Fool!"

-Mr.T

That's Mister which is his first name, the period is his 2nd name and the T is his last name. 

T on L '82

Your lack of humor is pretty offensive 

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54 minutes ago, Stoneworker said:

Both 2020 Covid spending packages were bi-partisan. The $6 trillion in new spending is all Democrats.

Your logic is bizarre, at best.

Im talking overall spending over the years.  Its not as if a GOP controlled Senate and POTUS cut spending down.

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Joe raises taxes on me...not a suprise.   

Joe spending money like a drunken sailor, much of which will go to complete waste, also not a surprise.

Last time Obama did this, a lot of the money went into now mothballed green projects for example.

 

Democrats gonna Democrat

 

And yes the GOP has been largely irresponsible as well, but the Dems are overtly wasting money IMHO.

Edited by TripItUp
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3 hours ago, dkp993 said:

Very true, but you also making an assumption you have that choice.  Many don't.  I can't make what I do in Iowa doing what I do.

And again, I didn't say it was middle class.  I said in the big cities it was closer to middle class then wealthy.  

Mrs and I could honestly take the equity, sell everything, liquidate investments? Go buy a 3,500 sq ft home in the middle of nowhere in Florida or some other State maybe and then pay cash, have money in the bank, not tons but then where would we work or what we do for fun on the weekends? Choices choices...

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8 minutes ago, Stoneworker said:

Yes. I agree with that aspect. 

Its one of my annoyances with what the GOP has become.  Fiscal responsibility is gone. 

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Instead of changing bad tax code, I wish a president would come along and scrap the whole thing and build it right from the ground up.

And account for things like annual infrastructure spending and paying down the debt and the other needs.

if you break into into earning stair steps with a sliding tax percent it shouldn’t be too hard to figure out.  

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1 minute ago, The Dude said:

Instead of changing bad tax code, I wish a president would come along and scrap the whole thing and build it right from the ground up.

And account for things like annual infrastructure spending and paying down the debt and the other needs.

if you break into into earning stair steps with a sliding tax percent it shouldn’t be too hard to figure out.  

It isn't but rich people don't want to change things and rich people donate money to politicians.

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Posted (edited)

Avg home price for a 3 Bed/2 Bath, 2,000+ sq ft in a real city in this country? What's that going for plus property taxes monthly? We gotta be at $3,000-$4,000 a month, rent runs easily that or more in most of the big cities for any kind of space. 

2 car payments are going to run you $1,000 a month easily, the money runs away fast. It leaves in a blink of an eye in these parts of the Universe. Can a Middle Class guy play a round of golf every week? Tennis too upper crust(pizza)? How about Bowling, can you bowl and be a middle class family? What's the food bills running? 

So they're making $15k after taxes which is a #### pile of money, right? But they got $10k a month in expenses and then they want to try and invest, pt some back for the kids for college and the next thing you know they're living pay check to pay check and now the teenager is being nudged to go get a Swedish Fish gig on the weekend. 

Season tickets to NFL, just for the rich? Concert tickets that are $500 these days for many shows, who is buying those? Middle class or the stinking rich? It takes gobs and gobs of money to live in these metropolis with any kind of lifestyle. I could tell you stories about Los Angeles but between the gambling and the liquor bills, we just could never really zero in and purchase a home and i remember looking at a Brentwood Condo for like $675Bazillion dollars and it had no view, just a building you look into and thinking we gotta get out of here, this is crazy. And we did thank goodness and Florida has been a goldmine on the return ride. Unfortunately everyone knows about it now after the pandemic.  

Edited by Ministry of Pain
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10 minutes ago, Ministry of Pain said:

Avg home price for a 3 Bed/2 Bath, 2,000+ sq ft in a real city in this country? What's that going for plus property taxes monthly? We gotta be at $3,000-$4,000 a month, rent runs easily that or more in most of the big cities for any kind of space. 

2 car payments are going to run you $1,000 a month easily, the money runs away fast. It leaves in a blink of an eye in these parts of the Universe. Can a Middle Class guy play a round of golf every week? Tennis too upper crust(pizza)? How about Bowling, can you bowl and be a middle class family? What's the food bills running? 

So they're making $15k after taxes which is a #### pile of money, right? But they got $10k a month in expenses and then they want to try and invest, pt some back for the kids for college and the next thing you know they're living pay check to pay check and now the teenager is being nudged to go get a Swedish Fish gig on the weekend. 

 

How do you get from 3000-4000 in mortgage/taxes and 1000 in car payments to all the way up to 10K in expenses?

And I am not sure I know anyone that has 1K in monthly car payments, that seems nuts

Edited by the moops
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2 minutes ago, the moops said:

How do you get from 3000-4000 in mortgage/taxes and 1000 in car payments to all the way up to 10K in expenses?

And I am not sure I know anyone that has 1K in monthly car payments, that seems nuts

New Honda Accord will run you like $35k these days, over 60 months is like a lot per month. Accord is the mint family middle class car these days or in that general area for 4-door sedans I would imagine. It's not a European car. Wife has a Ford Expedition to haul around all those kids, that things has to run $700+ per month. Gas, insurance, slurpees, Starbucks, it adds up. 

New iPhones and the lates technology to stay ahead at these lucrative jobs, it adds up. Dry Cleaning, Car Washes, the Food Court at the Mall. Panhandlers to and from so you don't feel too bad about yourself, the money just rolls. 

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6 minutes ago, the moops said:

And I am not sure I know anyone that has 1K in monthly car payments, that seems nuts

:bye:

 

$35,000 car is a 500 a month payment.  Have 2 of those. 

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1 minute ago, the moops said:

Those all sound like expenditures of a wealthy family

Well we found our disconnect.  If a 35k car is the expenditure of a wealthy family we have vastly different views of what wealthy is.  

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12 minutes ago, the moops said:

How do you get from 3000-4000 in mortgage/taxes and 1000 in car payments to all the way up to 10K in expenses?

And I am not sure I know anyone that has 1K in monthly car payments, that seems nuts

That entire post shows how out of touch he is with the REAL working MIDDLE class.

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I mean, my wife and I make solid "middle class money" - AKA 150K'ish household income

We don't dry clean. Bought a van for 10K and got a hand me down Camry. Our mortgage is 2K. Our phones are a couple years old. We don't skimp on groceries or vacations though.

When you can buy a new Accord and have a 4K mortgage and buy frappucinos everyday and get your shirt pressed and drycleaned and can take a few vacations every year and buy new iphones every year, etc, etc....

That is the American description of wealthy. You aren't middle class. You choose to spend spend spend and have more spending power than 90% of Americans. That you are maybe a few paychecks from having to not get Starbucks everyday, or have to sell your brand new car for a perfectly fine 4 year old car, or need to text on a iphone 5 instead of 6, or whatever

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4 minutes ago, the moops said:

Those all sound like expenditures of a wealthy family

 

1 minute ago, Redwes25 said:

We have a winner here

So wealthy people dry clean their clothes and eat greasy food at the mall? That's the level of Class we are running around here? 

iPhones? Homeless people carry them. That's a rich man's phone? 

I am learning new things every day. 

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3 minutes ago, dkp993 said:

Well we found our disconnect.  If a 35k car is the expenditure of a wealthy family we have vastly different views of what wealthy is.  

We do. Middle class folks dont drive two brand new 35K cars. For real. 

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1 minute ago, the moops said:

I mean, my wife and I make solid "middle class money" - AKA 150K'ish household income

We don't dry clean. Bought a van for 10K and got a hand me down Camry. Our mortgage is 2K. Our phones are a couple years old. We don't skimp on groceries or vacations though.

When you can buy a new Accord and have a 4K mortgage and buy frappucinos everyday and get your shirt pressed and drycleaned and can take a few vacations every year and buy new iphones every year, etc, etc....

That is the American description of wealthy. You aren't middle class. You choose to spend spend spend and have more spending power than 90% of Americans. That you are maybe a few paychecks from having to not get Starbucks everyday, or have to sell your brand new car for a perfectly fine 4 year old car, or need to text on a iphone 5 instead of 6, or whatever

No reason to apologize for being poor, we've all been there.

In all seriousness, we're very similar and my wife and I have destroyed and eradicated just about all debt minus the new Refi which took us down to like 1/3 of what it would cost to rent this place so life is pretty good for once and yeah we don't skimp at the grocery store either. Boar's Head Simplicity Applewood Smoke Ham, $15 a lb, slice it up baby! That's living. 

It's not what you make it's what you keep, I believe something like that. 

How about vinyl records? That Middle class or rich man's game now? 

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7 minutes ago, the moops said:

We do. Middle class folks dont drive two brand new 35K cars. For real. 

Didn’t say new.  My car had 240k on it when I traded it in on my current and my wife’s had 260k.  My current is a 2016 and hers a 2017. But if you feel like someone being able to by a new Honda Accord is wealthy, cool. Certainly your right, we just have different views on it. 👍

And for the 47th I never claimed middle class.  

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7 hours ago, randall146 said:

And it looks like it would be a 2.6 % marginal increase on dollars earned above $400,000. Meaning a couple earning $400k sees no increase. A couple earning $500k sees an increase of $2600. Hardly a war on the middle class. 

Yep. The whole conversation about 400k is just a distraction meant to make people forget about the millionaires and billionaires that this will actually hit. It's a strawman.

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2 minutes ago, dkp993 said:

Didn’t say new.  My car had 240k on it when I traded it in on my current and my wife’s had 260k.  My current is a 2016 and hers a 2017. But if you feel like someone being able to by a new Honda Accord is wealthy, cool. Certainly your right, we just have different views on it. 👍

And for the 47th I never claimed middle class.  

I think we are talking past each other a bit. MOP talked about two new cars at 1K a month. That is an expense that people I know who are clearly middle class could not swing without sacrificing in other ways. On the other hand, a family pulling in 400K could easily swing that

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Working Poor has got to be about $20 an hour and under? You can get just about the same stuff direct from the government if you try hard enough so let's figure out where Lower Middle would start in real dollars. 

Family Income of $100,000 might be a start point for Lower Middle, and that would extend to at least $200,000 before you could even really see the first solid part of the Middle Class. Upper Middle Class then would kick in at about $300-$400k which is right on pace with these Monster Cities housing millions of folks. 

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3 minutes ago, the moops said:

I think we are talking past each other a bit. MOP talked about two new cars at 1K a month. That is an expense that people I know who are clearly middle class could not swing without sacrificing in other ways. On the other hand, a family pulling in 400K could easily swing that

👍It’s all good. 

I’m tapping out at this point, never had any intentions to discuss or paint this conversation like these income level people are suffering.  Just wanted to point out that 400k was not the same in a big city and the discussion lead places I didn’t intend.  

Have a good night GB.  

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40 minutes ago, Ministry of Pain said:

 

So wealthy people dry clean their clothes and eat greasy food at the mall? That's the level of Class we are running around here? 

iPhones? Homeless people carry them. That's a rich man's phone? 

I am learning new things every day. 

This is laughable.  You are making 400k a year you can afford a house over a million dollars.  Anyone that can afford such a house is not middle class. 

In case you don't believe my math here is a nice link about it - https://themortgagereports.com/71443/income-to-afford-1-million-dollar-house#:~:text=Expect to need at least,for a %241M home&text=But if your finances aren,buy that million-dollar home.

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50 minutes ago, Ministry of Pain said:

Working Poor has got to be about $20 an hour and under? You can get just about the same stuff direct from the government if you try hard enough so let's figure out where Lower Middle would start in real dollars. 

Family Income of $100,000 might be a start point for Lower Middle, and that would extend to at least $200,000 before you could even really see the first solid part of the Middle Class. Upper Middle Class then would kick in at about $300-$400k which is right on pace with these Monster Cities housing millions of folks. 

Lower middle class is considered starting around 40k family earnings. You are just way out of touch with reality. 

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4 hours ago, Ministry of Pain said:

Working Poor has got to be about $20 an hour and under? You can get just about the same stuff direct from the government if you try hard enough so let's figure out where Lower Middle would start in real dollars. 

Family Income of $100,000 might be a start point for Lower Middle, and that would extend to at least $200,000 before you could even really see the first solid part of the Middle Class. Upper Middle Class then would kick in at about $300-$400k which is right on pace with these Monster Cities housing millions of folks. 

Man, just take some time and read the data and statistics on income in the United States.  You are so far from reality with the numbers you are throwing around that it's making any serious conversation or debate impossible.  

By your assertion that 200K is the start of middle class, you are saying that only roughly 10% of the population is middle class or above.

Your claim that ~$20/hr is working poor, would mean that families w/ incomes around 80k are working poor.  Do you realize that the median household income in the US is around 70k?

Regardless, in talking specifically about this proposed plan and the associated taxation, @Shula-holic is making a great point.  Most of us in this thread would fall in middle to upper middle class, and we are arguing with each other about who's got it harder/better.  Meanwhile, once again, the truly wealthy evade fair taxation because we continue to keep capital gains on a separate plane than income under the myth that increased capital gains taxes would reduce investment.  I've yet to hear what vehicle for wealth generation the truly wealthy would move to if capital gains were taxed more fairly, but we are always warned that they will reduce investment if we try it. 

It's the same story over and over, get the middle/upper middle class to punch down, get the lower middle/poor angry at the middle/upper middle, and the rich just continue to accumulate and separate from the rest of us while buying the government they want.

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5 hours ago, Ministry of Pain said:

Working Poor has got to be about $20 an hour and under? You can get just about the same stuff direct from the government if you try hard enough so let's figure out where Lower Middle would start in real dollars. 

Family Income of $100,000 might be a start point for Lower Middle, and that would extend to at least $200,000 before you could even really see the first solid part of the Middle Class. Upper Middle Class then would kick in at about $300-$400k which is right on pace with these Monster Cities housing millions of folks. 

Most people don’t live in New York or LA or some other metropolis where prices for everything is inflated. The idea that the clerk at Walgreens is making $20 an hour is laughable. When you talk about income, you don’t add up health insurance and the other things you might get. Yeah, rent and whatnot in Chicago or any other large city is expensive, but that shouldn’t be the benchmark here. You’re whining about possibly paying more in taxes while buying $15 a pound ham. That’s what you want to spend on, fine. Just understand that’s like an hour of work for the gas station clerk, more like 2 hours after taxes, because they pay those too. 

According to indeed, average starting pay for Walgreens cashier is $9.87. Even the pharmacist making $45 an hour makes $90,000 a year (40 hours, 50 weeks). 
 

If these jobs pay $20 an hour, why is there pushback on a $15 min wage?

Edited by Snorkelson
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14 hours ago, dkp993 said:

I live in one of those city's right now, make in the range of the OP's original post, my best friend of 25 years makes just over 400k in the same city.  I know first hand right now how far those incomes go.  I also grew up on welfare in dirt poor neighborhoods so I have perspective.  I nor my friend are anywhere near wealthy and live squarely in the upper middle class life.  Don't know what else to tell you.

As someone with similar finances in another high priced city, who also grew up poor, I think your expectations for what constitutes “wealthy” are skewed.

But rather than guess your standards, how do you define wealthy/upper class?

ETA NM, you don’t need anyone else giving you a hard time. 

Edited by Terminalxylem
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Has MoP addressed a single one of the sources that show how out of touch and wrong he is? Instead, he just continues to ramble on and throw random numbers out there for what he considers middle class.

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11 hours ago, Stoneworker said:

$3-4 trillion in two upcoming economic proposals.

The Yellen/Powell printing press still on fire from the $1.9 trillion Covid package.

Tax hikes on both corporations and individuals.

And Democrats wonder why they get called the party of "tax and spend"...

While this is true I find it a better solution to the GOPs "cut revenue and spend".  How did the former president tell us he was going to make up for his massive tax break and how well did that go?"  Even before the pandemic the deficit was sky-rocketing but most Republicans were unconcerned.  Now that a Democrat is in the oval office all of a sudden deficits matter again.  

No one argues that the infrastructure in the US is in bad shape and needs fixed.  This bill will do that and the rebuild will provide badly needed jobs to working America.   The bill will largely be funded by an increase in the corporate tax rate but will still be less than it was during Obama, Bush and Clinton.  It also has provisions to penalize Amercian companies that send jobs overseas.

Of course the devil is in details and so there may be some issues that need ironed out but on the surface this sounds like a good idea, certainly better than the tax break that overwhelmingly benefited corporations and rich Americans while adding to the deficit.

 

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7 hours ago, Ministry of Pain said:

Avg home price for a 3 Bed/2 Bath, 2,000+ sq ft in a real city in this country? What's that going for plus property taxes monthly? We gotta be at $3,000-$4,000 a month, rent runs easily that or more in most of the big cities for any kind of space.

I think you’d need to have a mortgage in the $600,000 to 900,000 range to get to a $3,000-$4,000 monthly payment. There are certainly some neighborhoods in certain cities where the average 2,000 square foot 3 bed/2 bath home will run that, but that’s nowhere near the norm.

Edit:  I see that you’re also factoring in property taxes. Still don’t think that gets you there except in selected areas/cities. 

Edited by bigbottom
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7 hours ago, Ministry of Pain said:

So they're making $15k after taxes which is a #### pile of money, right? But they got $10k a month in expenses and then they want to try and invest, pt some back for the kids for college and the next thing you know they're living pay check to pay check and now the teenager is being nudged to go get a Swedish Fish gig on the weekend. 

You previously asserted that a household making $400,000 would net $12,000 or less monthly after taxes. Now you’re at $15,000, which is still wildly inaccurate (that would be 55% tax withholding on your regular paycheck).  Also, it appears that a household making $400,000 annually won’t see any tax increase under this proposal. Someone making $750,000 will pay an extra $9,100 in taxes. Do you consider someone making $750,000 a year middle class?

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13 minutes ago, bigbottom said:

I think you’d need to have a mortgage in the $600,000 to 900,000 range to get to a $3,000-$4,000 monthly payment. There are certainly some neighborhoods in certain cities where a 2,000 square foot 3 bed/2 bath home will run that, but that’s nowhere near the norm. 

It is the norm in Honolulu, but I still think people making $400K there are wealthy.

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2 minutes ago, Terminalxylem said:

It is the norm in Honolulu, but I still think people making $400K there are wealthy.

I’m sure it’s the norm in San Francisco as well. But when you apply that to any “real city” in the country, the logic doesn’t hold. 

Edited by bigbottom
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9 minutes ago, bigbottom said:

I’m sure it’s the norm in San Francisco as well. But when you apply that to any “real city” in the country, the logic doesn’t hold. 

 But I also think the logic doesn’t hold in Honolulu.

Edited by Terminalxylem
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Just now, Terminalxylem said:

Agree. But I also think the logic doesn’t hold in Honolulu.

I have family in HI that live in homes with values in that range, but they also don’t have mortgages that equal the total value of their home.  None of them make $400k either. Not even close. 

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