Declaration of War begins on the Middle Class starting Today! (1 Viewer)

Amused to Death said:

The real message that needs to be pushed is this plan will benefit middle America by improving our roads, bridges, drinking water, etc. and create millions of blue and white collar jobs. And no family making under $400,000 will see a tax increase. Trying to make us feel bad for families making close a half million a year to pay for it is a GOP strategy because that's who they cater to. Typically the GOP would include cuts to Social Security as part of the plan to avoid corporate tax increases. This seems like a plan to benefit the other 98%.

Click to expand...

Amused to Death said:

The real message that needs to be pushed is this plan will benefit middle America by improving our roads, bridges, drinking water, etc. and create millions of blue and white collar jobs. And no family making under $400,000 will see a tax increase. Trying to make us feel bad for families making close a half million a year to pay for it is a GOP strategy because that's who they cater to. Typically the GOP would include cuts to Social Security as part of the plan to avoid corporate tax increases. This seems like a plan to benefit the other 98%.

Click to expand...

Bucsfan5493 said:

Correct. The only valid concerns I’ve seen are from @Shula-holic who pointed out the loophole for capital gains and @Cowboysfan8 who brought up how not all of this bill will actually be going towards infrastructure and some of it will be going towards policies that I can see why people would disagree with. 
 

Overall, this will without a doubt help the average American. The people who are upset that a family making $500,000 needs to pay an extra $2.600 and maybe has to cut their annual vacation to Disney World a couple of days short now need to get a grip.

Click to expand...

Bucsfan5493 said:

Correct. The only valid concerns I’ve seen are from @Shula-holic who pointed out the loophole for capital gains and @Cowboysfan8 who brought up how not all of this tax money will actually be going towards infrastructure.
 

Overall, this will without a doubt help the average American though. The people who are upset that a family making $500,000 needs to pay an extra $2,600 and maybe has to cut their annual vacation to Disney World a couple of days short now need to get a grip.

Click to expand...

Redwes25 said:

This is laughable.  You are making 400k a year you can afford a house over a million dollars.  Anyone that can afford such a house is not middle class. 

In case you don't believe my math here is a nice link about it - https://themortgagereports.com/71443/income-to-afford-1-million-dollar-house#:~:text=Expect to need at least,for a %241M home&text=But if your finances aren,buy that million-dollar home.

Click to expand...

Ministry of Pain said:

Avg home price for a 3 Bed/2 Bath, 2,000+ sq ft in a real city in this country? What's that going for plus property taxes monthly? We gotta be at $3,000-$4,000 a month, rent runs easily that or more in most of the big cities for any kind of space. 

2 car payments are going to run you $1,000 a month easily, the money runs away fast. It leaves in a blink of an eye in these parts of the Universe. Can a Middle Class guy play a round of golf every week? Tennis too upper crust(pizza)? How about Bowling, can you bowl and be a middle class family? What's the food bills running? 

So they're making $15k after taxes which is a #### pile of money, right? But they got $10k a month in expenses and then they want to try and invest, pt some back for the kids for college and the next thing you know they're living pay check to pay check and now the teenager is being nudged to go get a Swedish Fish gig on the weekend. 

Season tickets to NFL, just for the rich? Concert tickets that are $500 these days for many shows, who is buying those? Middle class or the stinking rich? It takes gobs and gobs of money to live in these metropolis with any kind of lifestyle. I could tell you stories about Los Angeles but between the gambling and the liquor bills, we just could never really zero in and purchase a home and i remember looking at a Brentwood Condo for like $675Bazillion dollars and it had no view, just a building you look into and thinking we gotta get out of here, this is crazy. And we did thank goodness and Florida has been a goldmine on the return ride. Unfortunately everyone knows about it now after the pandemic.  

Click to expand...

dkp993 said:

Well we found our disconnect.  If a 35k car is the expenditure of a wealthy family we have vastly different views of what wealthy is.  

Click to expand...

Godsbrother said:

While this is true I find it a better solution to the GOPs "cut revenue and spend".  How did the former president tell us he was going to make up for his massive tax break and how well did that go?"  Even before the pandemic the deficit was sky-rocketing but most Republicans were unconcerned.  Now that a Democrat is in the oval office all of a sudden deficits matter again.  

No one argues that the infrastructure in the US is in bad shape and needs fixed.  This bill will do that and the rebuild will provide badly needed jobs to working America.   The bill will largely be funded by an increase in the corporate tax rate but will still be less than it was during Obama, Bush and Clinton.  It also has provisions to penalize Amercian companies that send jobs overseas.

Of course the devil is in details and so there may be some issues that need ironed out but on the surface this sounds like a good idea, certainly better than the tax break that overwhelmingly benefited corporations and rich Americans while adding to the deficit.

Click to expand...

Mene said:

Man, just take some time and read the data and statistics on income in the United States.  You are so far from reality with the numbers you are throwing around that it's making any serious conversation or debate impossible.  

By your assertion that 200K is the start of middle class, you are saying that only roughly 10% of the population is middle class or above.

Your claim that ~$20/hr is working poor, would mean that families w/ incomes around 80k are working poor.  Do you realize that the median household income in the US is around 70k?

Regardless, in talking specifically about this proposed plan and the associated taxation, @Shula-holic is making a great point.  Most of us in this thread would fall in middle to upper middle class, and we are arguing with each other about who's got it harder/better.  Meanwhile, once again, the truly wealthy evade fair taxation because we continue to keep capital gains on a separate plane than income under the myth that increased capital gains taxes would reduce investment.  I've yet to hear what vehicle for wealth generation the truly wealthy would move to if capital gains were taxed more fairly, but we are always warned that they will reduce investment if we try it. 

It's the same story over and over, get the middle/upper middle class to punch down, get the lower middle/poor angry at the middle/upper middle, and the rich just continue to accumulate and separate from the rest of us while buying the government they want.

Click to expand...

Bucsfan5493 said:

Correct. The only valid concerns I’ve seen are from @Shula-holic who pointed out the loophole for capital gains and @Cowboysfan8 who brought up how not all of this tax money will actually be going towards infrastructure.
 

Overall, this will without a doubt help the average American though. The people who are upset that a family making $500,000 needs to pay an extra $2,600 and maybe has to cut their annual vacation to Disney World a couple of days short now need to get a grip.

Click to expand...

Amused to Death said:

I'm just glad we finally have a real infrastructure plan being introduced. Hopefully healthcare follows close behind. No more talking about it and promises that never materialize.

And if the right-wing were honest, their real problem with this bill is that a Dem introduced it. Can't let the other side get a win. And yes, I realize it would be the same if the roles were reversed. However the GOP never addressed infrastructure nor healthcare despite repeated promises they were coming.

Click to expand...

sho nuff said:

I dont think it would be the same.  Had Trump don this vs his tax cuts there would have been dem support.

Click to expand...

Snorkelson said:

Most people don’t live in New York or LA or some other metropolis where prices for everything is inflated. The idea that the clerk at Walgreens is making $20 an hour is laughable. When you talk about income, you don’t add up health insurance and the other things you might get. Yeah, rent and whatnot in Chicago or any other large city is expensive, but that shouldn’t be the benchmark here. You’re whining about possibly paying more in taxes while buying $15 a pound ham. That’s what you want to spend on, fine. Just understand that’s like an hour of work for the gas station clerk, more like 2 hours after taxes, because they pay those too. 

According to indeed, average starting pay for Walgreens cashier is $9.87. Even the pharmacist making $45 an hour makes $90,000 a year (40 hours, 50 weeks). 
 

If these jobs pay $20 an hour, why is there pushback on a $15 min wage?

Click to expand...

Ministry of Pain said:

Half a lb only gets me about a sammich and some ham left over to mix in the eggs. 

Nobody ives in NYC and LA...I thought it was tens of millions vs you can get there from here'ville but hey again I'm just rolling with it. I think there's an awful high concentration of folks where I live and when I go to what some would refer as rural like where my MothInLaw just moved North of Tampa in Citrus County called Homosassa, population of 2,500. She just sold 5 acres and a home that needs to be bulldozed and bought a condo, great prices, wish we could buy something there but there's no jobs and they have a Domino's and a Subway, it's a great life. 

Click to expand...

Ministry of Pain said:

Why don't you get a serious number of what it cots to live a decent lifestyle where you aren't skimping on everything, I would like to know what you all think it takes to live life on a monthly basis, rent. food, clothes, car/transportation etc...Middle Class don't run public buses. 

I would venture to guess since I've lived in Miami and Los Angeles and Tampa/St Pete that the average nut per month is around $5K and that has to be after you pay taxes. Work it back and you tell me how $20 an hour is anywhere near Middle Class. 

$20 an hour is $15 after taxes so where do we want to really draw the line. It's possible 3/4 of the country needs a serious wage increase, i'm not trying to suffocate or tell folks they can't move up to the Middle Class. We have a huge poor population that has grown leaps and bounds the last 12 months. 

Click to expand...

KarmaPolice said:

I did a quick scan and wanted to read the thread further today.  Please tell me this thread isn't claiming that a family making 500K/year is middle class.  

Click to expand...

Ministry of Pain said:

Individuals making $150k-$200k are buying $1M-$2M Homes? I am so behind, i had no idea. 

Click to expand...

KarmaPolice said:

I did a quick scan and wanted to read the thread further today.  Please tell me this thread isn't claiming that a family making 500K/year is middle class.  

Click to expand...

Bucsfan5493 said:

$400k/year, but yes that appears to be MoP's argument here.

Click to expand...

bigbottom said:

But households making $400k a year won’t see a tax hike under the current plan. So the complaint doesn’t make sense unless you go north of that amount. 

Click to expand...

bigbottom said:

I think you’d need to have a mortgage in the $600,000 to 900,000 range to get to a $3,000-$4,000 monthly payment. There are certainly some neighborhoods in certain cities where the average 2,000 square foot 3 bed/2 bath home will run that, but that’s nowhere near the norm.

Edit:  I see that you’re also factoring in property taxes. Still don’t think that gets you there except in selected areas/cities. 

Click to expand...

sho nuff said:

Green schools aren't infrastructure?  Amtrak isn't part of infrastructure?

I mean...I know its Hannity so if it says green its going to be the boogie man..

Click to expand...

Amused to Death said:

And here's how the Fox-sphere is framing it. Hannity:
In fact, out of the roughly $2.3 trillion in new spending, only $650 billion is allocated for roads and bridges and general infrastructure. $80 billion -- that’s marked as a handout to Amtrak. The rest of the $2.3 trillion – that is dedicated to retrofitting millions of homes and hospitals and other buildings in an environmentally conscious way and other funds would go toward building new "green" schools. $400 billion -- of your hard-earned tax dollars -- of this so-called "infrastructure bill" would be used to expand Medicaid and, of course, billions more would be used to permanently cap… oil and gas wells…

No surprise how he's defining "your". Who's his target audience again? Also notice how he states that only $650B is for "infrastructure". Per Vox, here's how it breaks down. What part of this is objectionable and unnecessary for middle America?

The plan includes $621 billion in infrastructure spending dedicated to rebuilding the nation’s roads, bridges, ports, and rail systems. It also contains $300 billion to bolster manufacturing, $213 billion for affordable housing, and a collective $380 billion for research and development, modernizing America’s electricity grid, and installing high-speed broadband around the country. The plan also includes $400 billion for home- and community-based health and elder care.

Click to expand...

Ministry of Pain said:

Any clerk selling Swedish Fish makes $40K or $20 an hour these days. All these retail grocery stores, drug stores, they're paying thru the roof right now to find help. 

$100k combined income, one person selling Swedish Fish and the other selling Kia Motors let's say. Middle class family in Urban America? Good chance to become homeowners? Can you not buy a home and still be Middle Class in 2021? 

Click to expand...

Ministry of Pain said:

You're deserve a post back, you've waited patiently with a smirk on your face, I can see you. 

-MoP understands the logic of some of you but try and look at it how I am looking at things. There's 100 people and there is $10 Million in the kitty. 50 people make $20 an hour or less let's say. That's about $800k, let's round it to $1M. 

50 people get 10% of the pie and then another 25% of the folks make $40 an hour or $80k per year. And we can keep doing this but some folks seem to think that whatever person 25-75 in line make up the Middle Class but you might have a very wide Working Poor, living pay check to pay check with very little to no savings or the inability with lack of resources to truly invest in oneself. 

It's sad to me how some folks(not you BB) look at it. 2013, Avg Household Income was $50k which is about $12.50 per head if there are two incomes...$12.50 an hour is Middle Class? Is that what we want to use as a definition? My 21 yr old son who lives with and helps take care of his grandparents makes about $17 an hour and cannot afford an apartment on his own if he tried because we have and I wanted him to live on his own. I had my own apartment from the time I was 18 and I left home, mom was a teacher, father a branch mgr at a bank, we had very little money growing up in South Florida which is what spurned me to immediately run out and make some when I was younger. 

There's a major gap or jump from $400k to $1M and then believe it or not, some folks actually make a lot more than that...I don't know those people but the wealthy making Millions that really don't have to work another day in their lives...most of the folks making $100k, $200k, etc...they are not loafing around. I feel strongly that people who work hard for $20 an hour resent folks who make double what they do even though they work just as hard if not harder to make that much more. Whatever they did, they made themselves more valuable. 

You want to make more, become more. It's not like people who make 6 figures just walk out tot he mailbox and collect the check.

Click to expand...

Redwes25 said:

Things I bolded don't sound like infrastructure to me.  I would cut that stuff out and focus on real infrastructure like roads, bridges, railroads, airports, electricity grid and broadband.  There are clear reasons to object to the bill on these grounds but not that earning over 400k is middle class.  

Honestly, raising taxes needs to be done at some point as both parties have spent like crazy and taxes have constantly lowered.  Of course only the party out of power actually cares about spending.  When in power they all spend like drunken sailors.  

Click to expand...

bigbottom said:

You previously asserted that a household making $400,000 would net $12,000 or less monthly after taxes. Now you’re at $15,000, which is still wildly inaccurate (that would be 55% tax withholding on your regular paycheck).  Also, it appears that a household making $400,000 annually won’t see any tax increase under this proposal. Someone making $750,000 will pay an extra $9,100 in taxes. Do you consider someone making $750,000 a year middle class?

Click to expand...

Redwes25 said:

Individuals making 400k are though and that is what we are discussing. You sure like to move the ball on this one.  

Honestly, I would likely have a tax increase under this plan but I also acknowledge that making over 400k doesn't put me in the middle class (even though I like to think of myself as middle class).  If you are making over 400k you are in top 10% of income.  Top 10% of income is not middle class.

ETA - Guess I was wrong as I just looked it up.  Over 400k income a year is top 5% and that is even further from middle class.  https://www.investopedia.com/personal-finance/how-much-income-puts-you-top-1-5-10/

Click to expand...

Mene said:

I think this is the problem.  You are trying to define middle class based on what you feel is necessary to be considered middle class (lifestyle and income), as well as basing it on the areas in which you have lived.  I think it goes without saying that this isn't how legislation works.  They have to attempt to come up with something that works across the entire nation, so they use income data from across the nation.  Your location of residence will obviously dictate how that impacts you financially.

Click to expand...

Redwes25 said:

Individuals making 400k are though and that is what we are discussing. You sure like to move the ball on this one.  

Honestly, I would likely have a tax increase under this plan but I also acknowledge that making over 400k doesn't put me in the middle class (even though I like to think of myself as middle class).  If you are making over 400k you are in top 10% of income.  Top 10% of income is not middle class.

ETA - Guess I was wrong as I just looked it up.  Over 400k income a year is top 5% and that is even further from middle class.  https://www.investopedia.com/personal-finance/how-much-income-puts-you-top-1-5-10/

Click to expand...

djmich said:

Hey, hit and run here.

I'm not going to get into whats middle class or not and $400k is certainly a nice income.

Two points of relevance:

Most folks making $400k are not early on in there career.  They built their career to the point where for the final decade or whatever of their lives this is there opportunity.

College.  The family earnining $400k will need have zero needs based adjustment for a college education.  That is what $250-300k per child?  Post tax income.  You have to save $100k/yr for six years to put kids through college.  A family with $40k in income will receive significant needs based tuition adjustments.

Thats not an argument that $400k is middle class.  Just pointing out that college is essentially a huge tax on income earners in the $150k+ bracket.  

Click to expand...

Ministry of Pain said:

Try and follow my thinking...MoP don't make $400k a year, I wish.  @the moops I thought had a pretty good idea of what lane we are running in currently and I would tend to agree with him that within reason I think probably $150k-$200k is a solid Middle Class income, I don't disagree with that but $20 an hour and under...after you pay some taxes you're left with some hard choices and you are going to be eating fast food. And a family with children? Have you seen the rising healthcare costs for families? 

I do feel like $1M in income yearly is where I start thinking that someone has really hit it big and is rich. I see doctors from the hospital all the time, many times they have a spouse who is either a doctor or also making a healthy income. Are doctors rich btw? Do we resent doctors in this country? 

$750k, yeah that's a lot...and I'll even agree with BB that $400k is a lot of money or can be when managed properly. But I don't think it's outlandish money to anyone who makes a 6 figure income and is married to someone of similar pay. They are making $200k-$300k which is really good money but they are getting close to that $400k ceiling and even if they make it to that level their lives are not going to change that much. They gotta punch a clock probably working 60 hours a week to make that kind of money, really most 6 figure jobs almost require an extra 10-20 hours a week and a lot of folks balk at that. I have a friend on call 7 days a week, works a legit 5 and then has to be on call over the weekends. Makes great money but can never relax. 

What are people willing to do in order to move up? My guess is not much. I had nothing when I started and I don't begrudge anyone, proud of what the Mrs and I have been able to do, her mom had her at 18 and the dad abandoned her so my wife was poor poor poor growing up, my family had a little more than she did and I can remember when we first started dating how she looked at me when we went grocery shopping...things are a little different now. 

BB, I'm looking out for those that are trying to earn and get ahead, it feels like those folks are almost looked down upon these days for wanting more. 

Click to expand...

bigbottom said:

I’d have no issue paying $2,600 in extra taxes for an additional $100,000 in income above what I already make. That’s not going to demotivate me from earning more money. Particularly because the Trump tax cut reduced the top marginal tax rate by that very amount (2.6%) just a couple years ago. 

Click to expand...

Ministry of Pain said:

Just because you are in the top 10%...what gets you to the 50%Tile? 

$20 an hour?

Click to expand...

Ministry of Pain said:

But where I have lived, they have these folks called people and they fill up the cities. Millions and Millions in one 25-50 miles radius that have more people crammed in than entire States in the MidWest as an example. They send 2 Senators to D.C. in all these rural States, same as the heavily populated ones. 

Click to expand...

Ministry of Pain said:

100 people...5 of them make a LOT of Money and then 15 people make decent money and then 80 people make $20 an hour OR LESS...where is the Middle Class there? The logic some of you post is that it lays somewhere down in that Lower 80% and that's hogwash. 

People have been stagnant with wages since the 70s. To buy into what you are being fed about what the Middle Class should be based on these government stats is the wrong way of doing it if you ask me. 

We have to start waking people up that thy are basically poor and even working every day, unless you make close to 6 figures, you  cannot be getting ahead in nay way. You aren't buying 3 Bedroom homes and having 4 kids. This is probably why a lot of men don't want to get married and raise a family. They'll be broke and living a poor lifestyle having to scrimp and scratch for everything, that's not always a fun life. 

Think of who is truly wealthy and then measure what most working folks do that punch a clock or manage a team or run an entire Division of a company. 

I guess all C-Suite level Execs in companies are rich? Filthy rich, right?

Click to expand...

Redwes25 said:

I am not exactly sure as I don't research this stuff but I think median income is like 65k a year.  I think there is a general distoration of what people think middle class is in this country.  It is actually a lot less income then what most people think.  

Here is an interesting article about the idea that everyone thinks they are middle class - https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2013/08/why-americans-all-believe-they-are-middle-class/278240/ 

Click to expand...

timschochet said:

$400k a year isn’t middle class. Not in Orange County, not in Florida, not in Hawaii, not in New York City, not on Mars. Not anywhere. $300k isn’t middle class. You make that much a year, you’re doing far far better than average. 
 

That being said- this will be a tax on everyone because those being taxed directly will pass it down. That’s the reality. But so what? It has to be done anyhow. And in the end I expect this plan to lead to an economic boom. Way too much short sided thinking here. 

Click to expand...

Mene said:

If your larger point is that wage stagnation has decimated the middle class in America, on that we can agree. 

Click to expand...