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Declaration of War begins on the Middle Class starting Today! (1 Viewer)

tonydead said:
:goodposting:

Sounds like a bunch of poor people trying to convince themselves they are middle class.  And they are the ones that the government has tricked into thinking that raising taxes is a good idea.  It's like watching water go down the drain.  
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Not at all...and a ridiculous thing to claim about other people.  The numbers have been shown on income and housing.  Nothing about that was a good post.  Nothing about this thread is other people that are now supposedly poor trying to pass off as Middle Class.  Just flat out insulting to keep making such claims.

 
Mene said:
TripItUp said:
Ah yes, the Democrat/Socialist answer is to give them fish, a temporary bandaid that fixes nothing long term.

The Republican answer, which is superior, is to teach them to fish.
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The Democrat's answer is to give them a fish from the guy who's freezer has just a bit more fish than is required to sustain his family, but not touching the supply of the guy who has countless freezers full of fish.

The Republican answer is to point to the lake and tell them there are fish in there, providing no instruction nor equipment to get the fish, and disregarding that rampant deregulation they fought for has made the water toxic and the fish poisonous.

Neither presents a long term solution.  
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He proclaimed the Republican answer is superior. I'm waiting for the Republican infrastructure plan. Along with their healthcare plan, their immigration plan...anything besides the Republican corporate tax cut plan, border wall plan, and increase military spending plan. I suppose there is the GOP "protect our guns" plan.

 
Redwes25 said:
Would you work harder to make an extra 100k if you after tax income went down by 2,600?  I sure as hell am and imagine most people in that situation would say that same.  
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Its like people who keep a mortgage to get the tax break on interest.  Paying a bank more money per year to keep from sending Uncle Sam less than what their interest payments are.  Logic not always the best.

 
Mene said:
The Republican answer is to point to the lake and tell them there are fish in there, providing no instruction nor equipment to get the fish, and disregarding that rampant deregulation they fought for has made the water toxic and the fish poisonous.
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We do quite a bit more than point to the lake.  I myself am "self-made" and had almost no "instruction".

Public schooling, and our amazing universities are the backbone of "teaching to fish".  Can it be better, of course, and I would be a proponent of that.  To pretend there is nothing there when we have had a President and now a Vice President which are both second generation Americans, is disingenuous at best.

I see nothing in this bill that is "teaching to fish."   Democrats gonna Democrat.

 
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Shula-holic said:
Thanks, and totally agree with all of this.  Just read this thread to see how this already is true and happening while the wealthiest skate.  It's a great playbook, tax the pretty well off, get them to complain a bit, those below the threshold think it's funny this group claims they aren't well off enough to be included as wealthy.  Meanwhile, the ones who are making $1MM in cap gains, the truly wealthy, skate by as the other two groups bicker over whether $400K is well off enough to be the marginal rate cutoff.  The focus always stays on that argument because people get outraged someone doing that well could complain and don't see how those folks are drops in the bucket.
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Agreed that the capital gains loophole is BS and protects the ultra wealthy more, but I disagree that this upper-middle class group is usually the focus. Maybe for some people and in this specific thread but I know I and some others have been beating the drum that the 0.1% needs to be taxed significantly higher for a very long time. Unfortunately, it's usually met with people saying I'm lazy, I just want handouts, and that we shouldn't be taking away money from people who have earned it.

 
sho nuff said:
Its like people who keep a mortgage to get the tax break on interest.  Paying a bank more money per year to keep from sending Uncle Sam less than what their interest payments are.  Logic not always the best.
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Disagree with this.  Tax free leverage is a powerful tool and should be taken advantage off.  You are paying 2% and 3% on an after tax basis is basically free money and allows you to use that money elsewhere for investment, etc. 

It is valuable tool for wealth creation and very few people understand it even if they are taking advantage of it just by paying down their mortgage on a normal basis.

 
TripItUp said:
We do quite a bit more than point to the lake.  I myself am "self-made" and had almost no "instruction".

Public schooling, and our amazing universities are the backbone of "teaching to fish".  Can it be better, of course, and I would be a proponent of that.  To pretend there is nothing there when we have had a President and now a Vice President which are both second generation Americans, is disingenuous at best.

I see nothing in this bill that is "teaching to fish."   Democrats gonna Democrat.
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I would contend that the bolded is the result of policies enacted by both parties, long ago.  The current Republican party is not the Republican party that used to try to present solutions.  I don't say this in defense of the Democrats, they seem to be hell bent on declaring every single issue in this country a result of mistreating some minority or another, all while searching high and low for reasons to be offended.  I would argue that both parties are lost right now, more concerned with battling each other than actually trying to right the ship.  I also say this knowing that both parties still have some good folks in them, but they are outnumbered it seems.

I can't speak to what all is in this current proposal (it's not really a bill yet) because I've not had a chance to read through all of it yet.  I have no doubt it has plenty of waste.  It's disingenuous to pretend that the Republicans have offered any serious solutions recently either, though.  They had full control 16 through 18 and decided an ill advised tax cut was the cure all, while completely ignoring infrastructure and abandoning their goal of better health care.

 
Mene said:
I would contend that the bolded is the result of policies enacted by both parties, long ago.  The current Republican party is not the Republican party that used to try to present solutions.  I don't say this in defense of the Democrats, they seem to be hell bent on declaring every single issue in this country a result of mistreating some minority or another, all while searching high and low for reasons to be offended.  I would argue that both parties are lost right now, more concerned with battling each other than actually trying to right the ship.  I also say this knowing that both parties still have some good folks in them, but they are outnumbered it seems.

I can't speak to what all is in this current proposal (it's not really a bill yet) because I've not had a chance to read through all of it yet.  I have no doubt it has plenty of waste.  It's disingenuous to pretend that the Republicans have offered any serious solutions recently either, though.  They had full control 16 through 18 and decided an ill advised tax cut was the cure all, while completely ignoring infrastructure and abandoning their goal of better health care.
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I can get on board with a lot of that...particularly "both parties are lost."  Although, I feel the Dems are a bit more lost than the Republicans.  8 years of Obama netted in almost zero significant advancement in terms of policy and I'm not expecting much more from the Biden Presidency...hoping they shock the hell out of me.

 
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TripItUp said:
I can get on board with a lot of that...particularly "both parties are lost."  Although, I feel the Dems are a bit more lost than the Republicans.  8 years of Obama netted in almost zero significant advancement in terms of policy and I'm not expecting much more from the Biden Presidency...hoping they shock the hell out of me.
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Well, we’ve needed a significant infrastructure proposal for well over a decade now, so this proposed plan is certainly a good start in terms of advancing policy (whether or not you support this particular bill).  I hope that both Republicans and Democrats roll up their sleeves and work to make this a successful Bill with bipartisan support.

 
My wife and I have less than $15k worth of debt, so if any of you middle class guys feel like that’s not a lot of money and want to provide an enormous boost to us getting ahead feel free to pm me. Thanks in advance. We live within our means and have a plan, but now I think we’re doing it all wrong.

 
Mene said:
The Democrat's answer is to give them a fish from the guy who's freezer has just a bit more fish than is required to sustain his family, but not touching the supply of the guy who has countless freezers full of fish.
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This sounds more like the 2018 tax cuts honestly :shrug:

Mene said:
The Republican answer is to point to the lake and tell them there are fish in there, providing no instruction nor equipment to get the fish, and disregarding that rampant deregulation they fought for has made the water toxic and the fish poisonous.
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I can lay this at the feet of both parties sans the rampant deregulation part....the GOP gets to own that.

Mene said:
Neither presents a long term solution.  
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Spot on here.

 
Redwes25 said:
Disagree with this.  Tax free leverage is a powerful tool and should be taken advantage off.  You are paying 2% and 3% on an after tax basis is basically free money and allows you to use that money elsewhere for investment, etc. 

It is valuable tool for wealth creation and very few people understand it even if they are taking advantage of it just by paying down their mortgage on a normal basis.
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Sure...some of that was simplistic of course given low low rates.  These days it doesn't matter as much tax wise with most as the standard deduction is high enough that itemizing doesn't make as much sense.

 
Bucsfan5493 said:
Agreed that the capital gains loophole is BS and protects the ultra wealthy more, but I disagree that this upper-middle class group is usually the focus. Maybe for some people and in this specific thread but I know I and some others have been beating the drum that the 0.1% needs to be taxed significantly higher for a very long time. Unfortunately, it's usually met with people saying I'm lazy, I just want handouts, and that we shouldn't be taking away money from people who have earned it.
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It's not the focus rhetorically, you are right the 0.1% is.  There's a huge disconnect though between that rhetoric and this policy proposal, a policy proposal from the party on the left.  And I don't have any ill will toward the 0.1% at all and am not out to get them, if anything I admire people who are successful.  But strictly looking at this, the policy doesn't match the talking points.  

 
Shula-holic said:
It's not the focus rhetorically, you are right the 0.1% is.  There's a huge disconnect though between that rhetoric and this policy proposal, a policy proposal from the party on the left.  And I don't have any ill will toward the 0.1% at all and am not out to get them, if anything I admire people who are successful.  But strictly looking at this, the policy doesn't match the talking points.  
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Completely agree, this policy does nothing to tax the 0.1% at the rate they should be, but sadly this is exactly what I expected from Biden. He's very moderate overall and significantly raising taxes on that group would be considered a radical idea by many.

 
bigbottom said:
Well, we’ve needed a significant infrastructure proposal for well over a decade now, so this proposed plan is certainly a good start in terms of advancing policy (whether or not you support this particular bill).  I hope that both Republicans and Democrats roll up their sleeves and work to make this a successful Bill with bipartisan support.
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Agreed. Perhaps the best way to garner bipartisan support is financing with public-private partnerships.

Instead of such heavy reliance on tax hikes, there is literally trillions upon trillions in private money (e.g. pension funds, insurance cos.) globally available to invest in long-term infrastructure projects. Indiana Toll Road and San Juan Airport are role models.

Then Biden can use the tax hikes to pay down the debt...but the government as large-scale capital allocator asset owner has always been a losing proposition.

 
sho nuff said:
Not at all...and a ridiculous thing to claim about other people.  The numbers have been shown on income and housing.  Nothing about that was a good post.  Nothing about this thread is other people that are now supposedly poor trying to pass off as Middle Class.  Just flat out insulting to keep making such claims.
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Please, people claimed middle class people can't afford to go to Starbucks.   :mellow:

Those people aren't middle class.  They are poor.

 
Stoneworker said:
Agreed. Perhaps the best way to garner bipartisan support is financing with public-private partnerships.

Instead of such heavy reliance on tax hikes, there is literally trillions upon trillions in private money (e.g. pension funds, insurance cos.) globally available to invest in long-term infrastructure projects. Indiana Toll Road and San Juan Airport are role models.

Then Biden can use the tax hikes to pay down the debt...but the government as large-scale capital allocator asset owner has always been a losing proposition.
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The Indiana Toll Road construction around the Gary area has seemed to go on forever.  

 
FairWarning said:
Here is more about it, didn't realize there was a bankruptcy involved. - https://usa.streetsblog.org/2014/11/18/the-indiana-toll-road-and-the-dark-side-of-privately-financed-highways/
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It's a good article. That deal was in 2006 and there has been a lot of improvements since then on both the private and public side. IMO these are primary takeaways:

*  Many experts seem to think that the state of Indiana will almost entirely be shielded from the fallout of this bankruptcy...

*  Investors are increasingly impatient with record-low returns on conventional bonds, and are turning to infrastructure as an asset class that promises stable, inflation-protected returns over the long run.

*  Meanwhile, governments are eager to fix decaying infrastructure — but without raising taxes or increasing their capacity to borrow. 

 
Stoneworker said:
It's a good article. That deal was in 2006 and there has been a lot of improvements since then on both the private and public side. IMO these are primary takeaways:

*  Many experts seem to think that the state of Indiana will almost entirely be shielded from the fallout of this bankruptcy...

*  Investors are increasingly impatient with record-low returns on conventional bonds, and are turning to infrastructure as an asset class that promises stable, inflation-protected returns over the long run.

*  Meanwhile, governments are eager to fix decaying infrastructure — but without raising taxes or increasing their capacity to borrow. 
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The last 12 miles that tie in to the Chicago Skyway are just awful.  

 
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Stoneworker said:
It's a good article. That deal was in 2006 and there has been a lot of improvements since then on both the private and public side. IMO these are primary takeaways:

*  Many experts seem to think that the state of Indiana will almost entirely be shielded from the fallout of this bankruptcy...

*  Investors are increasingly impatient with record-low returns on conventional bonds, and are turning to infrastructure as an asset class that promises stable, inflation-protected returns over the long run.

*  Meanwhile, governments are eager to fix decaying infrastructure — but without raising taxes or increasing their capacity to borrow. 
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Keep in mind you're discussing a state partnership - not federal. The Biden administration could pass an infrastructure bill but the funding would be distributed to the states. The states are then responsible for the funding, design, and contract award. So this proposed spending bill could get passed but it would be up to the states to finance it. Usually projects are funded by a combination of federal and state funds. I don't think it would be up to the Biden administration to determine if his plan should be PPP.

 
Amused to Death said:
Keep in mind you're discussing a state partnership - not federal. The Biden administration could pass an infrastructure bill but the funding would be distributed to the states. The states are then responsible for the funding, design, and contract award. So this proposed spending bill could get passed but it would be up to the states to finance it. Usually projects are funded by a combination of federal and state funds. I don't think it would be up to the Biden administration to determine if his plan should be PPP.
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Obviously the Feds have a stake in it since its a federal expressway.  IDK what their stake is in it, which is outside of the tollway agreement between the state and the private company.  Technically we are still on the hook as its a federal expressway.  

 
Amused to Death said:
Keep in mind you're discussing a state partnership - not federal. The Biden administration could pass an infrastructure bill but the funding would be distributed to the states. The states are then responsible for the funding, design, and contract award. So this proposed spending bill could get passed but it would be up to the states to finance it. Usually projects are funded by a combination of federal and state funds. I don't think it would be up to the Biden administration to determine if his plan should be PPP.
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Yes. But federal funds could be used similarly.

My central point is that there is a good chunk of the $2.3 trillion public capital that can be replaced with private capital. The feds could then use taxpayer money much more efficiently to offer various credit enhancements, sweeten deals for social equity purposes, etc.

Given the state of the country's finances, it's a much better way to leverage Fed funds.

 
Snorkelson said:
My wife and I have less than $15k worth of debt, so if any of you middle class guys feel like that’s not a lot of money and want to provide an enormous boost to us getting ahead feel free to pm me. Thanks in advance. We live within our means and have a plan, but now I think we’re doing it all wrong.
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If that's just a mortgage you have left, you're in great shape. If this is credit card debt which many have piled up thru the pandemic, I hope your plan works fast and well for you. 

Seriously, I appreciate a bunch of you posting and getting some other ideas flowing. I think a good visual would be what it cost to raise a family of 4 within a 25 miles radius of on any of these 30 Cities based on population and see what the numbers come out to. And there's a lot of variables that happen and cannot be accounted for. I hate to dictate how much a family should spend on things like entertainment or vacations that enrich a family thru their memories throughout life. 

I have 2 cars that are paid for and I think about trading one in but again I have 2 cars, one less than 50k miles, the other just over 90k, but again we have no car payments and we have just nuked all debt except the house. Trying to just invest the money so we can redirect(some say retire) before the normal age most slow down at. 

 
Ministry of Pain said:
I think a good visual would be what it cost to raise a family of 4 within a 25 miles radius of on any of these 30 Cities based on population and see what the numbers come out to. And there's a lot of variables that happen and cannot be accounted for. I hate to dictate how much a family should spend on things like entertainment or vacations that enrich a family thru their memories throughout life. 
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Can't speak to the accuracy, but the Economic Policy Institute has a budget calculator and you can enter any city/metro area in the country. https://www.epi.org/resources/budget/

It seems to overestimate some categories IMO, but it is a start. For isntance, if I put in Twin Cities Metro, for a family of four, it spits out $98,000. But in that, there is a way high transportation montly cost of $1200. Other hand, it has a low estimate of 1K for housing.

 
the moops said:
Can't speak to the accuracy, but the Economic Policy Institute has a budget calculator and you can enter any city/metro area in the country. https://www.epi.org/resources/budget/

It seems to overestimate some categories IMO, but it is a start. For isntance, if I put in Twin Cities Metro, for a family of four, it spits out $98,000. But in that, there is a way high transportation montly cost of $1200. Other hand, it has a low estimate of 1K for housing.
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$148K for Bay Area. Seems low to me, but there are some pretty terrible places to live that I'm sure even things out. There's also no allocation for savings, which is an issue.

 
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Ministry of Pain said:
I do feel like $1M in income yearly is where I start thinking that someone has really hit it big and is rich. I see doctors from the hospital all the time, many times they have a spouse who is either a doctor or also making a healthy income. Are doctors rich btw? Do we resent doctors in this country? 
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I think many people consider doctors rich and resent them.

Truth be told, physicians earn too much in this country. But when compared to people shuffling money, pro athletes and entertainers, they seem underpaid.

 
Ministry of Pain said:
@bigbottom

Would you care to give me a range of what you consider Middle Class income? 

$50K Household? That breaks down to $25k per individual or roughly $2k a month, $500 a week...that's Middle Class? I need some hard numbers since you have run me thru the mill on mine...and I appreciate you posting back and forth with me BB, I don't take anything you wrote personally or mildly offensive, and I don't disagree with many of your posts but I also want folks to understand that the folks in this upper Middle Class range are not rich. Now I see folks making $20 an hour pointing and shaming people for making 6 figures, that's again how the truly wealthy stay ahead as @Shula-holicwas pointing out, they get folks fighting within their own class.   
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I think 60-80K is middle class most places. Closer to 100K in cities like Honolulu.

When I first moved here, I earned right around that (albeit as a single male), and felt rich. When my wage increased and I married another high wage earner, that feeling didn’t change.

As a result, me and my spouse work part time, prioritizing free time over the additional cash. Granted we don’t have kids, but all the talk of “needing” several hundred thousand dollar salaries to break out of middle class is nonsense IMO. You just need less stuff, and appreciate that which already have.

 
Terminalxylem said:
I think many people consider doctors rich and resent them.

Truth be told, physicians earn too much in this country. But when compared to people shuffling money, pro athletes and entertainers, they seem underpaid.
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Pretty wide scale for physicians.  if you're a specialist, you can obviously make some big dough. PCPs are woefully underpaid for the amount of money they sunk into med school and what they do.  To your point, at least they're providing societal value

 
Ministry of Pain said:
President Wants Yo Money Fool!

After not getting a dime of that stimulus or a slice of the $2Spacezillion they spent on their wealthy buddies around the Globe, this a real kick in the teeth to anyone trying to expand and make a better life. No wonder folks cave and bend to hand outs and losing their will to work. What's the point of trying to get ahead, it's a total myth. The minute you become even marginally valuable they come for your hard earned money. Do you really believe it's easy to earn $150,000-$250,0000 a year in these days we live? I get it that folks live in some areas where money goes a lot further but in the 30 Big Urban Cities where the populations live you gotta have a lot of money just to survive. Most of these cities already have State income taxes on top of Federal with just a few States that are the exception. 

It's mind boggling but I also am sure there is cheering in the streets so probably the entire tone of this thread is completely wrong but it still needs to be said how awful these proposals are that seem all but certain to be passed into law. 
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You got it, brother 

 
the moops said:
Can't speak to the accuracy, but the Economic Policy Institute has a budget calculator and you can enter any city/metro area in the country. https://www.epi.org/resources/budget/

It seems to overestimate some categories IMO, but it is a start. For isntance, if I put in Twin Cities Metro, for a family of four, it spits out $98,000. But in that, there is a way high transportation montly cost of $1200. Other hand, it has a low estimate of 1K for housing.
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You and I are going to redefine the Middle Class, I'm on board and I freely admit people who make the very top of this are pretty much not suffering, I'm not obtuse to what $400k can do for a person, please don't read me wrong. It's just the lower they set the glass ceiling the harder it seems to vet on top or to want to get ahead. And I'm talking about the folks who have thrown in the towel on working low income jobs, combing two of them to make what some one can earn in a 40 hour week, take some folks 60-70 to earn the same. 

Whether anyone believes this or not, I stand for the working man. I know most don't make anywhere near $400k a year per household but that does't mean i don't wish most folks could earn that. I want everyone to clear all their debts and figure out if they weren't strapped just how hard they would work...my guess is most would figure out a way to live off their savings and tell most of their bosses to #### off. 

I am not anti-poor, that is the wrong message is anyone happens to think that. Not true and my actions the last many years would prove that. 

 
Terminalxylem said:
I think many people consider doctors rich and resent them.

Truth be told, physicians earn too much in this country. But when compared to people shuffling money, pro athletes and entertainers, they seem underpaid.
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OMGoodness you're hitting me in a soft spot. My mother died of breast cancer in 1995 at the ripe age of 46, her friend who was also a teacher and my best friend's mom dies a few laters same disease and I have never cried as hard as I did that day in church, even after losing my own mother I couldn't take watching all my friends suffer, it sucks mother####ers it ####### sucks and rubs you to the very core of who you are as a human being. I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy and I have hated a few folks over the years. 

It's an awful feeling. 

 
Terminalxylem said:
I think 60-80K is middle class most places. Closer to 100K in cities like Honolulu.

When I first moved here, I earned right around that (albeit as a single male), and felt rich. When my wage increased and I married another high wage earner, that feeling didn’t change.

As a result, me and my spouse work part time, prioritizing free time over the additional cash. Granted we don’t have kids, but all the talk of “needing” several hundred thousand dollar salaries to break out of middle class is nonsense IMO. You just need less stuff, and appreciate that which already have.
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It's a great post, can't disagree with a word of it, god bless you an your wife. 

 
-jb- said:
Pretty wide scale for physicians.  if you're a specialist, you can obviously make some big dough. PCPs are woefully underpaid for the amount of money they sunk into med school and what they do.  To your point, at least they're providing societal value
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Even primary care physician earn a lot in this country relative to others, and that includes debt incurred in school.

 
Drunken Cowboy said:
Probably 200k. I know some make this but many don't. I guess I would also like to see pay come down for many specialists. I am worried too many good MD's are pulled out of primary care for higher saleries.
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Compensation for U.S. primary care physicians continues to rise steadily, even if the increases haven’t been particularly impressive. Three leading physician compensation surveys all reported compensation upticks in family medicine, internal medicine, and pediatrics over the last 18 months, with the annual increases over the previous year ranging from approximately 1% to 4%, depending on the specialty and the survey.

Here is a quick look at the compensation surveys’ big-picture findings in primary care compensation:

American Medical Group Association (AMGA) 2016 Medical Group Compensation and Productivity Survey
Specialty         Median compensation
Family medicine     $234,706
Internal medicine     $249,588
Pediatrics         $235,257

Medical Group Management Association (MGMA) 2016 Physician Compensation and Production Report
Specialty         Median compensation
Family medicine (no OB) $230,456
Internal medicine     $247,319
Pediatrics         $231,637

Sullivan, Cotter and Associates 2016 Physician Compensation Survey
Specialty         Median total cash compensation
Family medicine     $226,000
Internal medicine     $233,715
Pediatrics-general    $225,121     
Click to expand...

 
I know a lot of people that is not reflective of.

However to the national picture:

Is the salary gap between professions closing or are all going up at the same rate?

 
Drunken Cowboy said:
I know a lot of people that is not reflective of.

However to the national picture:

Is the salary gap between professions closing or are all going up at the same rate?
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Not sure, but I think primary care providers might be increasing more quickly.

But I agree the pay disparity is a big contributor to the PCP shortage. That and insurance nonsense.

 
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