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5 hours ago, Stealthycat said:

we can justify just about anything - GW had 9-11, Trump had covid ........... Obama had the housing crash, I mean every President has challenges 

but never has spending been what it is today - its sick

The sick part is the unnecessary massive tax cuts for the wealthiest Americans that do not need them and some of the largest corporations not paying any federal income tax. 

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42 minutes ago, Stealthycat said:

when you tax corporations more - what will they do ? raise the price of goods/services - ie the working people, the lower class, poorer people pay more and get poorer

not a good plan, ever

Well, part of my idea is setting at the right rate whatever that is.  Just because the gop decided to lower taxes so huge corps are not paying income tax doesn’t mean you can’t go back to higher taxes.  It needs to be set at the right rate and be a flat tax

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50 minutes ago, Stealthycat said:

when you tax corporations more - what will they do ? raise the price of goods/services - ie the working people, the lower class, poorer people pay more and get poorer

not a good plan, ever

What companies lowered prices after the 2017 tax cuts?

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3 hours ago, Stealthycat said:

yes I can argue it

how?

the Fed Govt cuts costs to gather the funds for infrastructure and take it from where you ask ? find us a link of what the Fed Govt spends its money on, and you and I can line item delete a bunch of things and come up with tens of billions in wasted money I bet

cut across the board 5% spending and use that money

spending  1-3 trillion more every year than you make isn't wise, its not fiscally responsible and its what or Govt has done every year since Obama took office

 

75ish% is between medicare, social security and military....get out the pen....I want to see some slashin'!!!!!!!!  :popcorn: 

And all this started prior to Obama....just fyi.  Do you not read the word salads you post in your non answers to others?

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2 hours ago, Amused to Death said:
2 hours ago, Stealthycat said:

ok show me when this last worked

what years did the Fed Govt spend equal to or less ?

I'll wait

See the Bill Clinton years. Had a budget surplus for multiple years.

And deficits were on the decline from 2012 - 2016.  Headed the right direction, never got there.  Takes policy being in place for a good while to see long term benefits.

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16 hours ago, Rubiobot said:

The sick part is the unnecessary massive tax cuts for the wealthiest Americans that do not need them and some of the largest corporations not paying any federal income tax. 

and yet, the wealthy pay the majority of federal income taxes. how much more do you think we deserve to penalize successful people? and it doesnt matter - because the wealthy are the business owners, and they'll simply raise their prices on goods/services and the lower class people will pay that offset anyway. You're NOT going to "take" money from rich people, that's very naïve thinking imo

 

In 2016, the top 50 percent of all taxpayers paid 97 percent of all individual income taxes, while the bottom 50 percent paid the remaining 3 percent

The top 1 percent paid a greater share of individual income taxes (37.3 percent) than the bottom 90 percent combined (30.5 percent).

The top 1 percent of taxpayers paid a 26.9 percent individual income tax rate, which is more than seven times higher than taxpayers in the bottom 50 percent (3.7 percent).

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16 hours ago, The Dude said:

Well, part of my idea is setting at the right rate whatever that is.  Just because the gop decided to lower taxes so huge corps are not paying income tax doesn’t mean you can’t go back to higher taxes.  It needs to be set at the right rate and be a flat tax

flat tax I agree

 

tax the $25,000 person, the $40,000 person, the $125,000 and $500,000 and $50,000,000 all at ... lets do 15% 

that hurts everyone equally

and NEVER EVER EVER raise above 15%

ever

and the Fed Govt will have to work with that income, create a budget that fits or go to tariffs or other methods of gathering income 

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16 hours ago, Amused to Death said:

What companies lowered prices after the 2017 tax cuts?

they didn't but they didn't raise them either

so the common lower income people got more money in their pocket to pay for the same costs .... that's a good thing

 

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14 hours ago, The Commish said:

And deficits were on the decline from 2012 - 2016.  Headed the right direction, never got there.  Takes policy being in place for a good while to see long term benefits.

no

the national debt has sky rocketed every year ......... the budget every year is irrelevant 

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5 minutes ago, Stealthycat said:

no

the national debt has sky rocketed every year ......... the budget every year is irrelevant 

um....the basics of addition/subtraction disagree with you here.  Though, I'll be honest, I don't understand what you're trying to say.  We don't have "budgets" in this country.  We haven't had one since 1996 (I think that's correct).  Take a look at your charts and get back to me on what the correlates to in your "sides" ranting/raving.

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17 minutes ago, Stealthycat said:

The top 1 percent of taxpayers paid a 26.9 percent individual income tax rate, which is more than seven times higher than taxpayers in the bottom 50 percent (3.7 percent).

The top 1% have 16 times more money then the bottom 50% combined 

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13 minutes ago, The Commish said:

um....the basics of addition/subtraction disagree with you here.  Though, I'll be honest, I don't understand what you're trying to say.  We don't have "budgets" in this country.  We haven't had one since 1996 (I think that's correct).  Take a look at your charts and get back to me on what the correlates to in your "sides" ranting/raving.

what ?

https://www.usa.gov/budget

Congress is responsible for creating the federal government's annual budget.

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9 minutes ago, Mile High said:

The top 1% have 16 times more money then the bottom 50% combined 

what does that matter? 

people say " rich needs to pay their fair share"

the numbers show they pay the bulk of taxes- isn't that fair share enough ?

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Just now, Stealthycat said:

what does that matter? 

people say " rich needs to pay their fair share"

the numbers show they pay the bulk of taxes- isn't that fair share enough ?

They should pay the bulk of the taxes they have the bulk of the money.  Wouldn't a fair share be 16 times more then the 7 times they pay?

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6 minutes ago, BladeRunner said:

Uhm, yeah. That's why they pay the most taxes.  So, what's the problem again?

The federal government loses money. If the same amount was spread among the lower/middle class, it would be taxed higher. Why shouldn't ALL  money be taxed at the same rate?

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4 minutes ago, Amused to Death said:

The federal government loses money. If the same amount was spread among the lower/middle class, it would be taxed higher. Why shouldn't ALL  money be taxed at the same rate?

Don't we already have tiers based on income that determine how much taxes you pay?  The higher you earn, the more taxes you pay.

Are you saying that we should have a flat tax?

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38 minutes ago, Stealthycat said:

what ?

https://www.usa.gov/budget

Congress is responsible for creating the federal government's annual budget.

Continuing Resolutions <> Budget

https://www.budget.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/FINAL.SBC.BPR.Leg.SUMMARY.pdf
https://www.taxpolicycenter.org/taxvox/its-not-news-congresss-budget-process-wreck-it-should-be
 

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50 minutes ago, Mile High said:

They should pay the bulk of the taxes they have the bulk of the money.  Wouldn't a fair share be 16 times more then the 7 times they pay?

well actually if you want fair then tax the people with the most, disperse it until everyone has the same amount.  sooooooooooooo is that what you want?  it appears to me that is how your figures of 16 times more than 7 works out to be eventually.

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55 minutes ago, Mile High said:

They should pay the bulk of the taxes they have the bulk of the money.  Wouldn't a fair share be 16 times more then the 7 times they pay?

or Hells Bells lets just confiscate everything & start handing it out.  

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9 minutes ago, shadrap said:

well actually if you want fair then tax the people with the most, disperse it until everyone has the same amount.  sooooooooooooo is that what you want?  it appears to me that is how your figures of 16 times more than 7 works out to be eventually.

What I don't understand is why  people in the bottom 50% run cover for the top 1%

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So as I’ve written elsewhere, I’m generally in favor of all parts of this plan, including raising taxes, except for raising capital gains taxes. I see those, like tariffs, as directly interfering in economic growth, not a good thing. Hopefully the negotiations will include removing those. 

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1 minute ago, timschochet said:

So as I’ve written elsewhere, I’m generally in favor of all parts of this plan, including raising taxes, except for raising capital gains taxes. I see those, like tariffs, as directly interfering in economic growth, not a good thing. Hopefully the negotiations will include removing those. 

And Capital Gains tax increase would be the MOST DIRECT and meaningful way to impact the tax gap in this country :shrug: 

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28 minutes ago, Mile High said:

They should pay the bulk of the taxes they have the bulk of the money.  Wouldn't a fair share be 16 times more then the 7 times they pay?

ahhh but there is the IRS in existence that gives tax benefits to rich and companies and organizations etc who pour money into developing and investing etc

I mean if ya'll want, we can ask the rich to stop donating to charities ( tens of billions of dollars give for tax writeoffs) 

 

in the end, its not so much about the money the Fed Govt brings in, its about what they spend and today, wasn't it announced Biden wants to spend ANOTHER 1.8 TRILLION ? 

incredible 

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4 minutes ago, Mile High said:

What I don't understand is why  people in the bottom 50% run cover for the top 1%

because the bottom 50% pay 3% of the taxes?  doesn't look like they are running much cover to me.  looks like the opposite of what you said.

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1 hour ago, Amused to Death said:

The federal government loses money. If the same amount was spread among the lower/middle class, it would be taxed higher. Why shouldn't ALL  money be taxed at the same rate?

if lower income people donated more, had more tax writeoff's and all that, they'd not pay such a high % either

but they'd not have near as much money either

 

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6 minutes ago, timschochet said:

So as I’ve written elsewhere, I’m generally in favor of all parts of this plan, including raising taxes, except for raising capital gains taxes. I see those, like tariffs, as directly interfering in economic growth, not a good thing. Hopefully the negotiations will include removing those. 

taxing someone's good investments like people ready to retire - fantastic idea :(

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38 minutes ago, The Commish said:

what's that even mean ? 

you said "we don't have budgets in this country" when in fact, we do

its the Fed Govt spending way outside that budget that's the problem isn't it ?

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2 minutes ago, The Commish said:

And Capital Gains tax increase would be the MOST DIRECT and meaningful way to impact the tax gap in this country :shrug: 

OK? That’s not my motivation. Growing the economy is important to me. Redistribution of the tax burden isn’t. 

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1 hour ago, timschochet said:

OK? That’s not my motivation. Growing the economy is important to me. Redistribution of the tax burden isn’t. 

You want the cogs of the economy as clean and stress free as possible right?  How do you take burden off the middle class and keep them as clean and stress free as possible?

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1 hour ago, Stealthycat said:

what's that even mean ? 

you said "we don't have budgets in this country" when in fact, we do

its the Fed Govt spending way outside that budget that's the problem isn't it ?

No...we don't.  We have continuing resolutions.  You know, those events where the "shutdown the government" boogeyman is thrown out each year, sometimes multiple times a year?  We wouldn't have those if we had a passed budget.  And yes, spending is definitely part of the equation....been so for decades.

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3 hours ago, Stealthycat said:

flat tax I agree

 

tax the $25,000 person, the $40,000 person, the $125,000 and $500,000 and $50,000,000 all at ... lets do 15% 

that hurts everyone equally

and NEVER EVER EVER raise above 15%

ever

and the Fed Govt will have to work with that income, create a budget that fits or go to tariffs or other methods of gathering income 

We are close but the flat tax should be progressive.  Ie

10% on first 100k

20% on next 100k

 

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21 minutes ago, The Dude said:

We are close but the flat tax should be progressive.  Ie

10% on first 100k

20% on next 100k

 

why ?

punishment for being successful ?

why do you think your money is so much more important to you than a person making twice as much is to them ?

would you punish the 4.0 student for having better grades than the 2.5 gpa student?

would you punish Steph Curry for being able to shoot the 3 so well? Maybe make his shots only count for 2.5 points instead of 3 because he's so successful ?

 

success should not be attacked and discriminated against - that thinking has to stop

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36 minutes ago, The Commish said:

No...we don't.  We have continuing resolutions.  You know, those events where the "shutdown the government" boogeyman is thrown out each year, sometimes multiple times a year?  We wouldn't have those if we had a passed budget.  And yes, spending is definitely part of the equation....been so for decades.

how would you go about eliminating 20 trillion in debt that this Govt has added the past 15 years

 

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9 minutes ago, Stealthycat said:

why ?

punishment for being successful ?

why do you think your money is so much more important to you than a person making twice as much is to them ?

would you punish the 4.0 student for having better grades than the 2.5 gpa student?

would you punish Steph Curry for being able to shoot the 3 so well? Maybe make his shots only count for 2.5 points instead of 3 because he's so successful ?

 

success should not be attacked and discriminated against - that thinking has to stop

It would all depend on the math and how much is needed to run the country the way it should be done.  Patriotism over pocket book.   If you want to participate in American capitalism and reap the benefits, be prepared to give back accordingly.

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34 minutes ago, Stealthycat said:

how would you go about eliminating 20 trillion in debt that this Govt has added the past 15 years

 

Healthy slashes to our defense spending and completely overhaul our tax collection structure

ETA:  And if I got the ability to unilaterally change any laws I would create a balanced budget amendment to the Constitution and get rid of continuing resolutions outside the existing fiscal year.

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27 minutes ago, Stealthycat said:
51 minutes ago, The Dude said:

We are close but the flat tax should be progressive. 

why ?

If one of the goals is to make the "pain" of taxation relatively consistent across income levels then we should recognize and try to model as best we can  the marginal utility of a dollar as we learned about in Econ 101.  

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On 4/26/2021 at 2:58 PM, The General said:

Those fiscally responsible Republicans :lol:

Best quote I've heard on this subject is that Republicans are fiscally irresponsible, Democrats are fiscally insane.  

Right now is prime evidence that this is ever so true.  The spending proposals are off the hook.

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27 minutes ago, Sand said:

Best quote I've heard on this subject is that Republicans are fiscally irresponsible, Democrats are fiscally insane.  

Right now is prime evidence that this is ever so true.  The spending proposals are off the hook.

The numbers are wild. If you are going to go, go big!

I would be lying if I said I am not nervous about how this money will be spent if passed. There are lots of things in the infrastructure that I am excited to see though. 

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19 minutes ago, The General said:
48 minutes ago, Sand said:

Best quote I've heard on this subject is that Republicans are fiscally irresponsible, Democrats are fiscally insane.  

Right now is prime evidence that this is ever so true.  The spending proposals are off the hook.

The numbers are wild. If you are going to go, go big!

I would be lying if I said I am not nervous about how this money will be spent if passed. There are lots of things in the infrastructure that I am excited to see though. 

 It could be worse just remember that.  It could be all this spending with ZERO mention of how to pay for it.  I'm not saying we will pay for it...we won't, but at least there's a nod to budgets outside "this will pay for itself as long as we hit 15% GDP!!!!"  :hophead:

 

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1 hour ago, Bottomfeeder Sports said:

If one of the goals is to make the "pain" of taxation relatively consistent across income levels then we should recognize and try to model as best we can  the marginal utility of a dollar as we learned about in Econ 101.  

Again, it’s based on need to maintain and move our country forward.  If a flat 15% gets that done fine.  But if we need more money, I would rather ask the better off for more than squeeze the needy for more.

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4 hours ago, The General said:

The numbers are wild. If you are going to go, go big!

I would be lying if I said I am not nervous about how this money will be spent if passed. There are lots of things in the infrastructure that I am excited to see though. 

I see some things I think are smart - power grid, taking care of old lead pipes, etc. along with roads and bridges.  Some things seem like a ridiculous waste; the broadband item is ludicrous.  We'll soon have satellite internet available everywhere.  We don't need no stinkin' wires run all over tarnation.  80B is a total waste there.

4 hours ago, The Commish said:

 It could be worse just remember that.  It could be all this spending with ZERO mention of how to pay for it.  I'm not saying we will pay for it...we won't, but at least there's a nod to budgets outside "this will pay for itself as long as we hit 15% GDP!!!!"  :hophead:

Well, I also have no  confidence in the revenue numbers that the admin (or any admin) throws out.  They always, always underestimate cost and overestimate the amount of taxes X or Y will bring in.

 

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50 minutes ago, Sand said:

 

Well, I also have no  confidence in the revenue numbers that the admin (or any admin) throws out.  They always, always underestimate cost and overestimate the amount of taxes X or Y will bring in.

 

Don't disagree at all.  I'm saying at least there's an attempt.  I.E.....we've stopped just randomly dumping gas on the bonfire.  Have to start somewhere.

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20 hours ago, The Dude said:

It would all depend on the math and how much is needed to run the country the way it should be done.  Patriotism over pocket book.   If you want to participate in American capitalism and reap the benefits, be prepared to give back accordingly.

it could be argued that almost everything American is paid for by the rich - they pay the bulk of income taxes, property taxes, business taxes and of course, they donate billions ............. isn't that giving back accordingly ?

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19 hours ago, The Commish said:

Healthy slashes to our defense spending and completely overhaul our tax collection structure

ETA:  And if I got the ability to unilaterally change any laws I would create a balanced budget amendment to the Constitution and get rid of continuing resolutions outside the existing fiscal year.

why doesn't that ever happen ? 

if you put it to a national vote - people would overwhelmingly vote FOR wouldn't they ? 

another 1.8 trillion Biden wants to spend .... this is going to be a 5-7 trillion yearly addition to the national debt for 4 more years I'm afraid :(

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3 minutes ago, Stealthycat said:

it could be argued that almost everything American is paid for by the rich - they pay the bulk of income taxes, property taxes, business taxes and of course, they donate billions ............. isn't that giving back accordingly ?

You talking raw dollars, or %?

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Just now, KarmaPolice said:

You talking raw dollars, or %?

does it matter ?

we don't live in a % world

if we did, 75% of the NBA , elected officials, company employee's etc etc would be white, 13% black, 18% hispanic and so on

 

but I've said I'm all for 10% flat taxing and the liberal left says no - they don't want fair taxing, they want people more successful than they are to pay out the nose and discriminate against 

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44 minutes ago, Stealthycat said:

why doesn't that ever happen ? 

if you put it to a national vote - people would overwhelmingly vote FOR wouldn't they ? 

another 1.8 trillion Biden wants to spend .... this is going to be a 5-7 trillion yearly addition to the national debt for 4 more years I'm afraid :(

I doubt it.  People absolutely lose their #### over reduction of military spending.  We have a love affair with the wrong things in this country IMO.  

I've told you a billion times that politicians are going to spend.  They are.  They don't care.  None of them.  So, if we accept that, the question is, what do you want them to spend on?  Our choices right now are spending on really rich people and big businesses OR things like healthcare, infrastructure, education etc.  :shrug: 

And I'd like to see the math regarding the spending of 1.8T being 5-7T added every year to the national debt for 4 years.  What exactly are you talking about when you say that?

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48 minutes ago, The Commish said:

I doubt it.  People absolutely lose their #### over reduction of military spending.  We have a love affair with the wrong things in this country IMO.  

I've told you a billion times that politicians are going to spend.  They are.  They don't care.  None of them.  So, if we accept that, the question is, what do you want them to spend on?  Our choices right now are spending on really rich people and big businesses OR things like healthcare, infrastructure, education etc.  :shrug: 

And I'd like to see the math regarding the spending of 1.8T being 5-7T added every year to the national debt for 4 years.  What exactly are you talking about when you say that?

I'm talking about spending

CARES Act into law, March 27, 2020, Congress and President Trump set into motion a massive $2.2 trillion COVID-19 relief bill and the largest single economic rescue plan in the history of the U.S.

An interim funding bill—known as the Paycheck Protection Program and Health Care Enhancement Act—added $484 billion to that total. And in December 2020, the Consolidated Appropriations Act, 2021, was passed, adding another $900 billion in economic relief amid the ongoing fallout from the COVID-19 pandemic

Then on March 11, 2021, President Biden signed the $1.9 trillion American Rescue Plan into law bringing total COVID-19 relief so far to nearly $5.7 trillion

Last night, 1.8 trillion more spending was announced

that's above and beyond what the Govt spends

 

 

I don't accept that politicians are just going to spend - I don't accept 30 trillion in irresponsibility that will eventually results in the citizens of this country being economic slaves to the Fed Govt or, the USA defaults on its debt

Democrats and Republicans have failed - and right now, its Democrats failing yugely

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