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if a person is scared of unvaccinated people, the southern border crisis should scare the bejeezus out of them

 

me?  if I'm scare of what other people might be carrying (virus/bacteria)..... I'm going to stay at home. Way easier for me to avoid all the people I come into contact with every day than to demand they all get vaccines and shots and immunizations to satisfy my fears

I'm not going to bully anyone into that

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I guess I should have realized this thread would not be a good place to learn more about what social media warriors mean when they rant about vaccine passports.  However, the discussion has helped me

Friday 2 PM kegger on the patio for all those that are 2+ weeks from vaccination.  "Oh, you don't have your vaccine card? Why don't you put your mask on and go back to your desk and continue work

Vaccine passports should have photos on them for identification, and they should be required to vote. It would help with election security.

11 hours ago, -fish- said:

Highly doubt this executive order is enforceable for private businesses that want proof of vaccination. 

that was my thought but not a lawyer
All i knew for sure was once he enacted that EO , there would be a court case to prove that its not enforceable/legal 
just very interesting to watch this scenario play out there and other places 
 

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5 hours ago, Opie said:

...yet.

At this point...why require it when you can put pressure on local governments and businesses to require it?

Comply....or the shutdown remains in place.

I would say that you just couldn't be so blind....but I would be so wrong.

Are any local governments requiring it?  If so...if I were in such a locale...Id be fighting against it from government.

Private business...free to do as they please in such a matter.

So...no, not blind...no need to again get personal.  But I realize that seems to be a crutch many turn to when the facts don't fit their narrative.

So I won't worry about speculation the feds might require something they seem to have no interest in doing in order to complain and compare them to nazis (odd...when that is done with a right leaning government...the complaints flow quite freely...why do it here?)

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1 hour ago, waiver wire said:

that was my thought but not a lawyer
All i knew for sure was once he enacted that EO , there would be a court case to prove that its not enforceable/legal 
just very interesting to watch this scenario play out there and other places 
 

Yeah, this will get tested pretty quick.   Plenty of businesses that see a market for vaccinated-only events.  I don't see how the government can stop that.  It's not like anti-vaxxers are a protected class.   We already require yellow fever vaccinations to travel to a handful of countries.   At best, they'd have to make a reasonable accommodation for people that could show that due to some disability they're unable to get a vaccine.

 

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4 minutes ago, -fish- said:

Yeah, this will get tested pretty quick.   Plenty of businesses that see a market for vaccinated-only events.  I don't see how the government can stop that.  It's not like anti-vaxxers are a protected class.   We already require yellow fever vaccinations to travel to a handful of countries.   At best, they'd have to make a reasonable accommodation for people that could show that due to some disability they're unable to get a vaccine.

 

Looking at the full text of that EO, it looks like the only penalty for a business requiring proof of vaccination is that the state could withhold grants or public funding.   So some company like Ticketmaster isn't going to care anyway.

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7 hours ago, Snotbubbles said:

Because you can run the different phase studies concurrently so it would shorten the traditional time period.  I need to see clinical and nonclincial studies, DDI, ADME, LTS, smoker population, ethnic studies, etc.  I want to know the effects they have both with short term AEs and long-term AEs.  I want the studies peer reviewed and analyzed to note deficiencies in the study and study populations. 

I don't want to go from a 98% to beat COVID to a 99.5% chance to beat COVID only to increase my chances of getting some long-term debilitating event that either destroys my QOL or increases my chance of dying in the next 10 years to improve 1-1.5% of beating something that really isn't a serious threat to someone in my age and risk group.  If I was 75 with COPD I would have no hesitation taking the vaccine, I'm not.    

I understand how OWS shortened the timeline by overlapping the research phases and manufacturing/distribution of vaccines, but that still doesn’t explain how seemingly arbitrary your 3-4 year timeline is - similar to that of the mumps vaccine, developed ~50 years ago. And your standard for evidence exceeds that of any clinician I’ve ever known, so I imagine getting you to take anything is a tough sell, which is certainly your right.

I think you’re wildly overestimating the risk of a severe vaccine AEs, and probably underestimating how covid can ruin your life. More importantly, you’re ignoring the existence of other people, many of whom are far more vulnerable to infection, and may not choose/be able to be vaccinated. Again, it’s your right, but I encourage you to double check your math and apply the same intellectual rigor to the societal benefit of immunization when low risk individuals like yourself opt out.

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17 minutes ago, Terminalxylem said:

I understand how OWS shortened the timeline by overlapping the research phases and manufacturing/distribution of vaccines, but that still doesn’t explain how seemingly arbitrary your 3-4 year timeline is - similar to that of the mumps vaccine, developed ~50 years ago. And your standard for evidence exceeds that of any clinician I’ve ever known, so I imagine getting you to take anything is a tough sell, which is certainly your right.

I think you’re wildly overestimating the risk of a severe vaccine AEs, and probably underestimating how covid can ruin your life. More importantly, you’re ignoring the existence of other people, many of whom are far more vulnerable to infection, and may not choose/be able to be vaccinated. Again, it’s your right, but I encourage you to double check your math and apply the same intellectual rigor to the societal benefit of immunization when low risk individuals like yourself opt out.

Does HIPAA allow private companies to demand any health info before providing services.

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11 minutes ago, quick-hands said:

Does HIPAA allow private companies to demand any health info before providing services.

HIIPA only deals with what health care providers can disclose, not what you can disclose.   If I'm a private business and I say, "provide me proof of vaccination or get out of my store" you have two choices.

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17 minutes ago, quick-hands said:

Does HIPAA allow private companies to demand any health info before providing services.

HIPPA doesn't have anything to do with what you choose to (or not) disclose to another business.

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10 minutes ago, The Commish said:

HIPPA doesn't have anything to do with what you choose to (or not) disclose to another business.

Wasn’t that the big talking point of anti-maskers last year around his time? That people go go into a store requiring mask and just say have a medical condition preventing them from wearing one, but didn’t need to provide proof due to HIPPA

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26 minutes ago, yak651 said:

Wasn’t that the big talking point of anti-maskers last year around his time? That people go go into a store requiring mask and just say have a medical condition preventing them from wearing one, but didn’t need to provide proof due to HIPPA

They were wrong.

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1 hour ago, yak651 said:

Wasn’t that the big talking point of anti-maskers last year around his time? That people go go into a store requiring mask and just say have a medical condition preventing them from wearing one, but didn’t need to provide proof due to HIPPA

Hard to keep track if I'm being honest, but that sounds like something that would be said yes :lol: 

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NEW: The Republican National Committee is requiring attendees of the party's spring donor retreat in Florida to get tested for COVID & submit proof of a negative result as a condition for entry

 

🤔 Some might even call this a vaccine passport....

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3 minutes ago, Sinn Fein said:

NEW: The Republican National Committee is requiring attendees of the party's spring donor retreat in Florida to get tested for COVID & submit proof of a negative result as a condition for entry

 

🤔 Some might even call this a vaccine passport....

"Something something HIPPA laws!"

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5 hours ago, yak651 said:

Wasn’t that the big talking point of anti-maskers last year around his time? That people go go into a store requiring mask and just say have a medical condition preventing them from wearing one, but didn’t need to provide proof due to HIPPA

That's a pretty dumb argument, so it probably caught on.

Of course they don't have to provide proof of a medical condition, but they also have no right to enter the store. (Do people think handicapped parking spots violate HIPAA?)

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12 hours ago, Sinn Fein said:

NEW: The Republican National Committee is requiring attendees of the party's spring donor retreat in Florida to get tested for COVID & submit proof of a negative result as a condition for entry

 

🤔 Some might even call this a vaccine passport....

No one intelligent would.

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13 hours ago, Sinn Fein said:

NEW: The Republican National Committee is requiring attendees of the party's spring donor retreat in Florida to get tested for COVID & submit proof of a negative result as a condition for entry

 

🤔 Some might even call this a vaccine passport....

Huh? It says NOTHING about a vaccine

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On 4/6/2021 at 4:55 PM, Terminalxylem said:

I understand how OWS shortened the timeline by overlapping the research phases and manufacturing/distribution of vaccines, but that still doesn’t explain how seemingly arbitrary your 3-4 year timeline is - similar to that of the mumps vaccine, developed ~50 years ago. And your standard for evidence exceeds that of any clinician I’ve ever known, so I imagine getting you to take anything is a tough sell, which is certainly your right.

I think you’re wildly overestimating the risk of a severe vaccine AEs, and probably underestimating how covid can ruin your life. More importantly, you’re ignoring the existence of other people, many of whom are far more vulnerable to infection, and may not choose/be able to be vaccinated. Again, it’s your right, but I encourage you to double check your math and apply the same intellectual rigor to the societal benefit of immunization when low risk individuals like yourself opt out.

<Shrug> 

I would prefer a much longer waiting period say 10 years so that there is some Phase 4 analysis.  But I think within 4 years or so, a statistical analysis with a high enough confidence interval may be available to determine if there is any increase in serious adverse events in humans.  I'm in no rush to take this vaccine for a disease with a low mortality rate.        

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3 hours ago, Snotbubbles said:

I'm in no rush to take this vaccine for a disease with a low mortality rate. 

I truly hope you come out on the good with this bet.  I also hope that there aren't that many people that come to the same conclusion.  Otherwise, there will be needless suffering.

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31 minutes ago, The General said:
4 hours ago, Opie said:

These are the people who let the guy with the bite in the house in the zombie movies. 

Exactly...so dumb.  You want the quintessential picture of "entitlement" in this country it's those people wanting the benefit without having to do their part.  And to be clear....I have no issue with a person not getting the vaccine.  That's a personal decision.  I also have no issue with a business telling people they aren't interested in doing business with you if they feel that's in their company's best interest.  That's a business decision.  Don't be butt hurt rather respect the decision and take a brief moment to consider individuals other than yourself.

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On 4/9/2021 at 11:08 AM, The Z Machine said:

I truly hope you come out on the good with this bet.  I also hope that there aren't that many people that come to the same conclusion.  Otherwise, there will be needless suffering.

Amen.

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18 hours ago, The Commish said:

Exactly...so dumb.  You want the quintessential picture of "entitlement" in this country it's those people wanting the benefit without having to do their part.  And to be clear....I have no issue with a person not getting the vaccine.  That's a personal decision.  I also have no issue with a business telling people they aren't interested in doing business with you if they feel that's in their company's best interest.  That's a business decision.  Don't be butt hurt rather respect the decision and take a brief moment to consider individuals other than yourself.

Wow...if only a certain population on the Left felt the same about certain businesses catering their weddings and such.
Of course, those business owners are only worried about their immortal soul.

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1 hour ago, Opie said:

Wow...if only a certain population on the Left felt the same about certain businesses catering their weddings and such.
Of course, those business owners are only worried about their immortal soul.

How is refusing to cate to a gay couple in the "company's best interest"?  (As opposed to the personal interest of the business owner).

 

Its quite a bit different for a business to say "Its in our business interest to ensure the safety of both customers and staff."

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Just now, Sinn Fein said:
2 minutes ago, IvanKaramazov said:

These two things aren't distinguishable.

Sure they are.  

 

Now, you can try to make an argument, that its my "business interest" to discriminate against the LGBQT community - as that may enhance your business with other segments. 

But, its not a business reason to say, my personal beliefs do not allow me to serve any particular person.

 

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35 minutes ago, Sinn Fein said:

 

Now, you can try to make an argument, that its my "business interest" to discriminate against the LGBQT community - as that may enhance your business with other segments. 

But, its not a business reason to say, my personal beliefs do not allow me to serve any particular person.

 

It's literally not your business in either way.  You're and anti-vaxxers are free to shot elsewhere.

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2 hours ago, Opie said:

Wow...if only a certain population on the Left felt the same about certain businesses catering their weddings and such.
Of course, those business owners are only worried about their immortal soul.

As one who's thought that masks, distance, and hygiene were sufficient to get through this, I agree to that extent. :shrug:

Any other talkjng points you want to try out?

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12 minutes ago, IvanKaramazov said:

It's literally not your business in either way.  You're and anti-vaxxers are free to shot elsewhere.

I am not following.  So, maybe I misunderstood the initial point.

 

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On 4/8/2021 at 11:03 AM, Ramblin Wreck said:

Oh, it's been tested?  What are the long term side effects?  How does it affect people with auto-immune disorders?

Can you tell me some long term side effects of other vaccines that then led to rejection of approval? 

Or situations where people with auto immune disorders had issues say 3-4 years after getting one?

And this isnt some gotcha request, I am genuinely curious and I give you my word my only reply to any links or instances provided will be "thank you"

 

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I think there were some long-lasting effects of the Anthrax vaccine, including some speculation that it contributed to "Gulf War Syndrome".

I don't think that vaccine approval has been pulled by the FDA, but I could be wrong. 

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On 4/9/2021 at 5:08 PM, The Z Machine said:

I truly hope you come out on the good with this bet.  I also hope that there aren't that many people that come to the same conclusion.  Otherwise, there will be needless suffering.

The just pulled the J&J vaccine from use due to blood clot issues.  Like I said, I need more data before I put anything that is under emergency use in my body.    

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13 minutes ago, Snotbubbles said:

The just pulled the J&J vaccine from use due to blood clot issues.  Like I said, I need more data before I put anything that is under emergency use in my body.    

I mean there's plenty of data so far. 6 out of 7m people vaccinated got blood clots. Also, 576k out of 32m people infected with COVID died.

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1 hour ago, Snotbubbles said:

The just pulled the J&J vaccine from use due to blood clot issues.  Like I said, I need more data before I put anything that is under emergency use in my body.    

I'm not going to get into the bad phrasing here, but on it's face that is .000001% of the people so far....and this is likely the largest that % is going to be.  What else do you need to see?  Have you done the research to understand how these vaccines (Pfizer and Moderna) are different than vaccines we commonly know?  Just curious how far you've gone looking into these things.

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Two major cruise lines will require proof of vaccines. 

Gov. DeSantis says that his executive order prohibits this.  The cruise lines will tell him to pound sand, and what is he going to do, bar cruise ships?

He really is a dingbat.  

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Just now, massraider said:

Two major cruise lines will require proof of vaccines. 

Gov. DeSantis says that his executive order prohibits this.  The cruise lines will tell him to pound sand, and what is he going to do, bar cruise ships?

Yes, please -- New Orleans will welcome them with open arms.

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49 minutes ago, massraider said:

Two major cruise lines will require proof of vaccines. 

Gov. DeSantis says that his executive order prohibits this.  The cruise lines will tell him to pound sand, and what is he going to do, bar cruise ships?

He really is a dingbat.  

Are you sure you're not confusing proof of vaccines with vaccine passports? 

Also, DeSantis is trying to get the cruise ships re-opened. 

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13 minutes ago, quick-hands said:

If a person's religion beliefs don't allow  them to get the vaccine can a business deny them access?

Your religious beliefs should be respected by the government (first amendment), but nobody else is under any obligation to respect them.  Vaccines are against your religion?  Fine with me.  But you're not welcome in my home or my personal business.

Same with the gay wedding cake thing.  Feel free to get gay married -- don't expect to force others to participate in your wedding.

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16 minutes ago, quick-hands said:

If a person's religion beliefs don't allow  them to get the vaccine can a business deny them access?

Probably not good for Jehovah’s witnesses to go on cruises anyway due to the relative scarcity of knockable doors on board.

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