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Equal representation (1 Viewer)

STEADYMOBBIN 22

Footballguy
Lets use the National Football League as an example....

I keep hearing and reading how the NFL should have more minority head coaches, specifically black head coaches. There are 330 million people in this country. Black folks only make up 13-14% of that population. 

How in the world can 13-14% of the population have 50% of the jobs? 

ETA - I know there are only 2 black head coaches atm, and Ron Riviera is Hispanic so there is certainly room for improvement. The NFL might be a bad example. the point still stands. The talent pool, which I think is the most important factor, just isn't deep enough to support the whole, lets not be racist, by being more racist. 

 
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Lets use the National Football League as an example....

I keep hearing and reading how the NFL should have more minority head coaches, specifically black head coaches. There are 330 million people in this country. Black folks only make up 13-14% of that population. 

How in the world can 13-14% of the population have 50% of the jobs? 
Why don't we try to get to 13% then discuss

 
Lets use the National Football League as an example....

I keep hearing and reading how the NFL should have more minority head coaches, specifically black head coaches. There are 330 million people in this country. Black folks only make up 13-14% of that population. 

How in the world can 13-14% of the population have 50% of the jobs? 
Probably thinking should be proportionate to the player demographics.

 Of course the player demographics should be proportionate to population so we need to somehow remove black players.

 
Probably thinking should be proportionate to the player demographics.

 Of course the player demographics should be proportionate to population so we need to somehow remove black players.
thats the other "problem" I see. So if the NBA is x% black, what are we doing about getting more Asian and Hispanic players into the game? 

Common sense and basic math just doesn't seem to play a large enough factor. 

 
I am just against using race as a qualifier. I cant fathom the logic behind, we need to exclude this person based on their race, and not their qualifications. 

I applied for a HELOC a few years ago. During the process the bank lady told be about a form that I needed to fill out that asked my race. she told me that I did not have to fill the form out, however by law she was required to write down what she presumed my race was after I left. 

WTF???????

 
or ... we could live in a society for color of skin and nationality is irrelevant and the best person gets the position ?

wouldn't that be great ? no quota's, no special treatments, no segregation .... just everyone being treated equally and fairly ...

 
or ... we could live in a society for color of skin and nationality is irrelevant and the best person gets the position ?

wouldn't that be great ? no quota's, no special treatments, no segregation .... just everyone being treated equally and fairly ...
CrAzY TaLk!!!!!!! 😉 

You'll get no arguments from me. You and @BladeRunnerare doing good work. 

 
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Totally agree. I think I used a bad example.
While I agree everything should be merit based historically minorities have been looked over for coaching position. When you have a league that is majority black players and has always been major majority white things don't "add up".  I'm not a check the box person but I'm also not going to pretend that minorities have not been significantly overlooked.

I also firmly believe not all of it has "racist overtones"... Meaning people hire within their circles and or people they are comfortable with.   So some of it I think is "lack of understanding" but not purposeful imo.  And yes there are people overlooked purposely also

 
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While I agree everything should be merit based historically minorities have been looked over for coaching position. When you have a league that is majority black players and has always been major majority white things don't "add up".  I'm not a check the box person but I'm also not going to pretend that minorities have not been significantly overlooked.

I also firmly believe not all of it has "racist overtones"... Meaning people hire within their circles and or people they are comfortable with.   So some of it I think is "lack of understanding" but not purposeful imo.  And yes there are people overlooked purposely also
This is a great posting

Sometimes there needs to be rules when there is an extremely obvious bias.

 
While I agree everything should be merit based historically minorities have been looked over for coaching position. When you have a league that is majority black players and has always been major majority white things don't "add up".  I'm not a check the box person but I'm also not going to pretend that minorities have not been significantly overlooked.

I also firmly believe not all of it has "racist overtones"... Meaning people hire within their circles and or people they are comfortable with.   So some of it I think is "lack of understanding" but not purposeful imo.  And yes there are people overlooked purposely also
I agree with most of this. 
 

On the argument that the league is made up of majority black players- just because you’re good at playing football doesn’t  = qualified to be essentially the face of an entire organization. 
 

 
This is a great posting

Sometimes there needs to be rules when there is an extremely obvious bias.
So because there is a racial disparity, you think the solution is to base hiring on race? 
 

Again, you’re working with what is already an incredibly small pool of people to work with. Less people likely means there are simply less people who have the ability to be successful head coaches. 
 

What is your counterpoint to saying there aren’t enough white or Asian or Mexican NFL players?

 
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I agree with most of this. 
 

On the argument that the league is made up of majority black players- just because you’re good at playing football doesn’t  = qualified to be essentially the face of an entire organization. 
 
Sure but they weren't even getting interviews

 
What is your counterpoint to saying there aren’t enough white or Asian or Mexican NFL players?
Are you suggesting White, Asian or Hispanic players are not getting an opportunity to play in the NFL?

Because that is the real issue with minority coaches.  The argument is they have not been given the same opportunities to become coaches.  I don't think you can make a legitimate argument that non-Black players do not have the opportunity to audition for, or play in, the NFL.

 
Lets use the National Football League as an example....

I keep hearing and reading how the NFL should have more minority head coaches, specifically black head coaches. There are 330 million people in this country. Black folks only make up 13-14% of that population. 

How in the world can 13-14% of the population have 50% of the jobs? 

ETA - I know there are only 2 black head coaches atm, and Ron Riviera is Hispanic so there is certainly room for improvement. The NFL might be a bad example. the point still stands. The talent pool, which I think is the most important factor, just isn't deep enough to support the whole, lets not be racist, by being more racist. 


How do you know that?

 
Are you suggesting White, Asian or Hispanic players are not getting an opportunity to play in the NFL?

Because that is the real issue with minority coaches.  The argument is they have not been given the same opportunities to become coaches.  I don't think you can make a legitimate argument that non-Black players do not have the opportunity to audition for, or play in, the NFL.
You make a good point. I would argue that white folks are essentially told from an extremely young age that they’re not as good as their black counterparts athletically as was my experience all throughout sports but your point does stand. If they could prove it they would be given the opportunity.

I was told by my white high school coach that I wasn’t allowed to play running back because he would never let a white kid play running back for him.

Pretty ####ed up thing to tell a 12 year old. 
 

It is not lost on me that there are plenty of black folks that have been told similar things about non-athletic endeavors.

I really wish this wasn’t a problem because it causes angst on both sides. There’s got to be a better way of coming together

 
I am just against using race as a qualifier. I cant fathom the logic behind, we need to exclude this person based on their race, and not their qualifications. 

I applied for a HELOC a few years ago. During the process the bank lady told be about a form that I needed to fill out that asked my race. she told me that I did not have to fill the form out, however by law she was required to write down what she presumed my race was after I left. 

WTF???????
They are collecting data to see if the rate offered to customers on loans differs based on race.  Standard practice in lending.

 
So because there is a racial disparity, you think the solution is to base hiring on race? 
 

Again, you’re working with what is already an incredibly small pool of people to work with. Less people likely means there are simply less people who have the ability to be successful head coaches. 
 

What is your counterpoint to saying there aren’t enough white or Asian or Mexican NFL players?
The counterpoint to that is  if I'm running a high school football program and i have 100 Asian players try out every year and never pick any of them...then there is probably an issue.  But as far as I know that is not the case

I'm not a fan of broad policies but I'm also not a fan of sticking your head in the sand.  The NFL is predominantly African American and the coaches are predominantly white.  There are reasons to ask questions

 
The counterpoint to that is  if I'm running a high school football program and i have 100 Asian players try out every year and never pick any of them...then there is probably an issue.  But as far as I know that is not the case

I'm not a fan of broad policies but I'm also not a fan of sticking your head in the sand.  The NFL is predominantly African American and the coaches are predominantly white.  There are reasons to ask questions
Who is sticking their head in the sand? It’s comments like that that are counterproductive.

We need to have more conversations without smarminess and and condescension. 
 

if there’s going to be one thread please let it be this one. I want people To have the ability to say things without being chastised.

For example, I’m sure I’ve already said or will say something that is wrong. If I’m wrong I want to be explained why I’m wrong and forgiven for being wrong. 
 

I think one of my biggest growth moments and the one that I’m most proud of in the past several years as my ability for self reflection. I know I’m wrong about many things and I always try to see things from different angles and improve myself

 
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How about they never take race into account and only offer loans based on credit and earning power?
That would be fantastic.  Do you think we should do anything when an ethnic group pays 2% higher for a loan when all the other factors are equal?  Do you think we should check or measure that?

 
Lets use the National Football League as an example....

I keep hearing and reading how the NFL should have more minority head coaches, specifically black head coaches. There are 330 million people in this country. Black folks only make up 13-14% of that population. 

How in the world can 13-14% of the population have 50% of the jobs? 

ETA - I know there are only 2 black head coaches atm, and Ron Riviera is Hispanic so there is certainly room for improvement. The NFL might be a bad example. the point still stands. The talent pool, which I think is the most important factor, just isn't deep enough to support the whole, lets not be racist, by being more racist. 
I think the optics for the NFL is what looks bad - dominated by black players but hardly any black coaches or owners.     I think that is where people are trying to force the issue a bit.   

I've had this discussion in other threads, and I think that this issue is more of a bottom up approach.   IE we might not just be able to force the HC positions if there aren't enough in the ranks of OCs/DCs, etc..  that would be able to do the job.  But what we could to is give more opps for POC for those types of jobs, administrative jobs etc.   It's not an overnight fix, but I think we should at least be able to say we are trying to give equal opportunity.   

I think this goes for just about every industry, sport, whatever.   The example that was brought up was the article about the pilots (I think for AA).  Yes, it's probably not great to say we need 50% POC as pilots tomorrow.   However, let's explore getting education, simulators, transportation, etc..  to communities that might not have access and make sure people have the opportunity, and numbers should balance out more naturally.  

 
Bienemy and Leftwich would have been hired as HC’s based on merit if it wasn’t for the dumb hiring system the NFL has in place.

 
Who is sticking their head in the sand? It’s comments like that that are counterproductive.

We need to have more conversations without smarminess and and condescension. 
 

if there’s going to be one thread please let it be this one. I want people To have the ability to say things without being chastised.

For example, I’m sure I’ve already said or will say something that is wrong. If I’m wrong I want to be explained why I’m wrong and forgiven for being wrong. 
 

I think one of my biggest growth moments and the one that I’m most proud of in the past several years as my ability for self reflection. I know I’m wrong about many things and I always try to see things from different angles and improve myself
My apologies if you took that the wrong way. It was not meant as an insult or directed at you in any way shape or form.  I was just using lazy language

 
330,000,000 people in this country. 
Blacks make up less than 45 million of that. There are less people = less chances for qualified head coaches. 
 
But you wrote that there isn't enough talent to support half of NFL coaches being black. There are only 32 NFL teams. Half of that is 16. 

You don't think the talent pool is deep enough for 16 qualified head coaches?

 
.... When you have a league that is majority black players and has always been major majority white things don't "add up".  I'm not a check the box person but I'm also not going to pretend that minorities have not been significantly overlooked.

.....


The job of a head coach is vastly different from a job of a player on the field. In order for your argument to hold, there would have to be a consistent and natural pathway from success as an NFL player to success as an NFL coach/head coach.

This is a reality in all professions. A great street cop might not make a great Chief Of Police. A great engineer might not make a great project manager. A great surgeon might not make a great Director of Medicine at a major hospital. Sure, you might have a rare Jerry West type, who was successful at two different roles, but how common is that?

What lots of people don't want to talk about is that lots of former players don't want to join the coaching ranks. They are already retired and many are financially set for life. They want to grind 18 hours a day, in a thankless brutal position where they may need to move every year or every few years?

Another issue for former players is many were douchebags in their prime. They were brutal to the press, their franchise(s), the fans, their coaches, the owners, the GMs, the scouts, everyone. So who wants to hire them?

Since I'm good clip older than most here, I can tell you that in my prime, it wasn't uncommon for lots of women to game the maternity leave system. Lots of places riding the edge of the line in terms of survival simply didn't want to hire women.

Over a decade ago, despite being called all kinds of names for saying so, I said one of the major problems with The Rooney Rule is it eliminates the question on whether the person in front of you is a POS or not. Being a POS is independent of race. Also gender. Also religion. Also age. I also pointed out that Amy Trask was, at the time, the ONLY female NFL executive in the entire league and lots of people hated her. She was an abrasive and toxic person by reputation and there's a reason she's didn't rise further in the sport.

No one wants to work with a POS. Mark Jackson had a  long and successful NBA career as a player. He had some success as a coach. No one wants to hire him now. You think that's racism? He forced his players into his religion and played all kinds of bizarre mind games with people. It's easy to say the problem is Mark Jackson is black, but it's not so easy to say the guy was not liked and his reputation got tanked for his behavior.

Is there racism out there? Yes, there is racism out in the world. Of that I have no doubt. But if you want to fight actual racism, it can't be done by being lazy and cheap. Screaming racism in sports is far too often very lazy and very cheap because the accusation can only be made when you rob everything of it's complexity, it's context, it's functional logistics and avoiding what drives human behavior beyond race.

Does the math not add up?

Or does the cheap and lazy math not add up?

 
But you wrote that there isn't enough talent to support half of NFL coaches being black. There are only 32 NFL teams. Half of that is 16. 

You don't think the talent pool is deep enough for 16 qualified head coaches?
I don’t think the talent pool of 330 million is enough for 32 NFL head coaches regardless of race.
 

The serious answer is I think we all know they’re contributing factors to why some black folks struggle in this country and I think it would be far more important to fix those issues then force the end result on people

 
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Probably thinking should be proportionate to the player demographics.

 Of course the player demographics should be proportionate to population so we need to somehow remove black players.
That’s a good point, if we are going to be woke wouldn’t it have to apply both ways? 

 
The counterpoint to that is  if I'm running a high school football program and i have 100 Asian players try out every year and never pick any of them...then there is probably an issue.  But as far as I know that is not the case

I'm not a fan of broad policies but I'm also not a fan of sticking your head in the sand.  The NFL is predominantly African American and the coaches are predominantly white.  There are reasons to ask questions
I think based on the bolded it would be good to get more African American coaches in the range of what our population represents. At the same time, is it ok to have predominately one race of players if we want fair representation? Are we just discriminating there because it’s Whites?

 
or ... we could live in a society for color of skin and nationality is irrelevant and the best person gets the position ?

wouldn't that be great ? no quota's, no special treatments, no segregation .... just everyone being treated equally and fairly ...
That would be great. Unfortunately, I usually hear this argument from people who have no interest in equality and just want to perpetuate the status quo. They’re not necessarily racists, but they enjoy the benefits of a legacy of racism.

 
That would be great. Unfortunately, I usually hear this argument from people who have no interest in equality and just want to perpetuate the status quo. They’re not necessarily racists, but they enjoy the benefits of a legacy of racism.
Damn...

 
That would be great. Unfortunately, I usually hear this argument from people who have no interest in equality and just want to perpetuate the status quo. They’re not necessarily racists, but they enjoy the benefits of a legacy of racism.
Wow. 

"I mean, I'm not saying you're a racist but you're a racist."

WTH?  This is why there will be no progress.  The race-hustlers need to keep us divided.  Good work.  :thumbup:

 
That would be great. Unfortunately, I usually hear this argument from people who have no interest in equality and just want to perpetuate the status quo. They’re not necessarily racists, but they enjoy the benefits of a legacy of racism.
It would be great...but it’s the argument of racists?

 
That would be great. Unfortunately, I usually hear this argument from people who have no interest in equality and just want to perpetuate the status quo. They’re not necessarily racists, but they enjoy the benefits of a legacy of racism.
It would be great...but it’s the argument of racists?
It's commonly uttered by white people in opposition to policies to counteract racism. :shrug:  

Like I said, they're not necessarily racists, but some of them are definitely racists.

 
What do people mean by increase representation?

1) Hire the black candidate over the white candidate when the white candidate is more qualified for the job?

2) If the white candidate and black candidate are perfectly equally qualified for the job, hire the black candidate?

3) If there are not enough black candidates who are qualified, determine whether there are any structural issues that cause this and try to address those issues so that there are more qualified black candidates?

Some here have made posts saying they are against #1...OK, agreed...but is anyone arguing in favor of #1?

 
What do people mean by increase representation?

1) Hire the black candidate over the white candidate when the white candidate is more qualified for the job?

2) If the white candidate and black candidate are perfectly equally qualified for the job, hire the black candidate?

3) If there are not enough black candidates who are qualified, determine whether there are any structural issues that cause this and try to address those issues so that there are more qualified black candidates?

Some here have made posts saying they are against #1...OK, agreed...but is anyone arguing in favor of #1?
Not sure how to answer about #2, honestly.    I don't think that a scenario would happen that two candidates are identical besides skin color.  

I think the goal is #3 so #1 happens very rarely, in that there are disproportional #s of white candidates over black candidates.  

 

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