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Systemic Racism And The Real Problem Behind Policing -- A Reckoning Or Were We Just Fine? (1 Viewer)

rockaction

Footballguy
Cross-post from the other thread. djmich said he was going to start a thread but I figured I may as well.

Anyway, here are my thoughts on "systemic racism," the phrase, its rise to prominence, and why. A short primer:

I think we're hearing about systemic racism not because of any large change in the system but two things:

  1. A reckoning with our history that includes a slaveholding past, no atonement right away for the slaveholding, broken promises to slaves, continued problems in voting and representation, Jim Crow and the separate but equal doctrine, and then, housing and other systematic ways of excluding blacks from full integration that still trickles down to this very day and left an indelible mark upon not just black culture, but black existence. That the police have been charged with upholding these laws represents a real problem, because the thrust of the laws, and thus, their enforcement, has been racially motivated, or racist, for lack of a better term.
  2. The notion of "systemic racism" is eagerly used by those outside of the system that have keen interest in destroying it; namely Marxist, communist, and anarchist groups. These groups have all been at the forefront of both the radicalized movements that march and protest nightly and also for the thought behind mainstream leftist thought, which has adopted truly radical charges and changes since the nineties, when this was all relegated to certain subcultures like punk and erstwhile academia departments at über-liberal colleges and universities
That's a good place to start to begin to address "systemic racism." Systemic racism, as djmich alludes to, may be no longer there prima facie, or de jure, but the relics of past injustices certainly remain and still shape our world. The ghettos we so quickly dismiss (or lionize, if you're a limousine liberal) in polite conversation are there because of problems with integration, housing, and services offered to blacks from the fifties and sixties. The CRA of '64 didn't alleviate all of the de facto discrimination that happened to blacks beforehand and certainly couldn't address unspoken avoidance of the problems that were caused by past discrimination.

So here we are today, reliving the past in a futile way, never advancing beyond anger on one side and outright refusal to talk about past wrongs and their lingering effects on the other side. One side feels like it is only lament, anger, and protestations that will eventually cause us to lose our false consciousnesses and see the "systemic racism," ignoring any culpability for a lack of progress made, the other side takes the bootstrap approach and refuses to admit its culpability in the present conditions of the Afro-American or person of color. This is not to say one is the same as the other. Personally, I think a lot of bootstrap arguments and refusal to admit past culpability fuels the anger and protestations against the current system. Sticking heads in the sand no longer works, so that's my two cents on the whole of it. Systemic racism, and the charge made thereof, isn't going away until a full reckoning of our history and policies are made. Anything else is just a band-aid covering a scab, waiting to be ripped off, yet still attached to the wound.

But that does not mean dismantling the system. It means making the system accessible to all. How to do that is the rub.

 
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I posted this a while back in Rock Du Jour. It's an attempt to suss out exactly what the charge of "systemic racism" entails and why it's so important to the left that it be used and accepted as the jumping off point for discourse when discussing policing and the methods that modern police are using and why they use them with seeming impunity.

Posted August 27, 2020 (edited April 18th)

I guess this is where I post my musings. Today I'm struck by the movement towards diffuse yet personalized blame for police brutality. We know of the black man in Kenosha shot in the back, and the black man killed in Georgia (there have been charges). What my question is, I guess, is how liable are we, as members of the society in which this happened, to blame for the shootings? It strikes me that there's an ever-present movement, however fringe, to assign blame to every citizen enjoying the privileges of our democratic laws for these incidents because they stem from a nebulous concept of the state as embodying an institutionalized racism, a theory about our society that holds that society as constructed, by our choice, is somehow inherently unfair toward blacks and other minorities. This is not a new intellectual phenomenon but has gained traction from the universities and the radicals to the everyday Joneses. Under this theory, instead of assigning blame to the culprits of the incidents and crimes and prosecuting them under the law, the movement grows and the drumbeat gets louder to implicate each and every individual member of society as complicit in another person’s actions.

Perhaps this can be traced back to something fundamental: the use of force by a select few who are chosen to dispense justice. Out of necessity, we, as a society, have assigned or charged a select few to have a monopoly on force. This is, some argue, a necessary trade-off for society to exist. We accept the notion of a different class of people, our guardians and peace keepers, when we allow a monopoly on violence with the imprimatur of the state. It is important to consider that this monopoly of force is consented to by the citizen. The citizen sanctions the monopoly so that there is not anarchy, but some semblance of order. Sounds good, right? But this transfer of power has intended and unintended consequences. The intended consequences are that we have a class of individuals entrusted by the state to keep the peace and order. We separate them from society. This leads to a certain tension inherent in the selection: We are tempted to no longer hold individuals charged with dispensing force to the same standards as the citizen. Indeed, we know that there is the potential for such discretionary actions that are wrongly undertaken. Therefore, we've come up with artificial legal constructs like qualified and absolute immunity to protect these government agents from life disturbances. We separate the agent from the action. What this has as its practical effect is that when the immunities provided are abused, those that are aggrieved and on the receiving end of injustice (or even pure justice) charge the entire citizenry, the entire system, with the fallout from the use of illegitimate force. Our top men are no longer as liable to moral and legal agency as the citizen that employs force. This, some can and do argue, has had the effect of making the system seem unfair and unjust towards the dispossessed at the expense of the undisturbed and compliant. We have become a people that is ruled not by a nation of laws, but of men. But this has a counterargument. The counterargument goes that special treatment is a necessary trade-off that we accept when we allow a monopoly on violence with the imprimatur of the state. The citizen sanctions the monopoly and protection so that there is not anarchy, but some semblance of order. This, importantly enough, is to the aggrieved a method of existence consented to by the citizen. What this does is that when the immunities provided are abused, the aggrieved charge or blame the citizenry with the fallout from the use of illegitimate force. And thus we sit today. We have assigned the dispensing of force to a protected few and the aggrieved argue that it is a reflection of each of us, individually as part of the whole. We are to blame. So what to make of this, as posited? That each and every individual is to blame for the sins of the rogue few charged with enforcing the law. Is the violence endemic to the law itself? This is what is charged. It is not as easy as the protestors and dissenters think to answer in the affirmative, nor is it easy for simple bystanders to dismiss out of whole cloth.

I answer thusly: It is a thorny problem of political philosophy to separate the personal from the political, but we do out of necessity's sake. Our systems are sometimes divorced from our own impetuses, our own impulses. The tension inherent between a person as a citizen and a person as a bystander and individual is felt, and deeply these days. We are all accused of wrongdoing per our existence within the system. J'accuse! There are those that refuse to note the distinction between the individual and the state apparatus of enforcement. The reformer, or agitator over the past few days, insists that one cannot be a political and moral agent yet also retain individual grace in the face of injustice to others. The reformer assigns blame to each individual to accomplish his nebulous sense of justice. It is diffused throughout the citizenry, all of us guilty, all of us complicit in wrongdoings by state actors. It is the legal equivalent of pollution and third-party effects. One rogue company spoils the public supply, and therefore it is all rotten.

This, however, strikes me as a tyrannical and totalitarian impulse and cannot withstand the scrutiny of the fundamental right to the pursuit of happiness, of the right to be left alone by others, by the overweening state. But this abuts the reformer's sense of justice. The reformer cannot tolerate the individual being divorced from the state, for then there is no power or grounds upon which to reform an entire system, which is what is sought by Marxist reformers, and thus we have a tension. It has been interesting to watch the past few days play out. We have been mau-mau’d into solidarity with a list of nebulous grievances not even explained. Property has suffered. Arson reigns in the city. To live and let live has come under scrutiny. The reformer asks: How can we live and let live when we are all responsible for injustice? Should we not be held accountable, each of us? And for some reason, we are browbeaten into no longer seeing ourselves as individuals but as culpable for the sins of the system. So we sit, with our parades voluntarily canceled, our displays muted, a pall cast over the most innocent displays of athleticism lest we not be in solidarity with the dispossessed, the aggrieved. It is now each individual on trial because of our societal sanction of the monopoly of force that has gone awry. The actions are no longer the agents' actions within their own agency, but ours collectively. We have been adjudged collectively guilty for the actions of a few, and surely we will suffer for it. This seems right. We have farmed out the duty, the duty has failed, therefore we are to blame as each individual.

But this line of thinking is the spark of totalitarianism. It is no accident that a group such as Black Lives Matter is couched in Marxist rhetoric and put into place by ardent Marxists; its impulse is obvious to all but those who would refuse the easiest surface scratch. BLM finds the system inherently violent not because of the laws in the system, but in the system itself. This rogue agency, the bad cop, is endemic to any capitalist system. Individuals that benefit from the rule of law within this system are not innocent bystanders or individuals; they comprise a class collective that injures a different class inherently. The system is responsible for collective wrongdoing, but in seeking reform, the group must also must hold each individual who comprises it to be liable. This is the Marxist way. It is total in scope, individual qua individual, or citizen qua citizen does not matter. It cannot conceive of a dissenting individualism, or the right to be left alone, so it works itself out in frustration against those who will not go along for the ride. Arson, forced oaths, looting, rioting. The old mantra whereby if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem. Damn the unwitting bourgeois and its improper elevated place in our society! These are the claims the revolutionary Marxist/anarchist makes. The violence, the forced solidarity, the isolation of those who do not stand with amorphous calls for a removal of the current system -- these are the tools of the revolutionary, however much grief suffered unjustly, however deeply-felt his abstract notions of injustice are. And so we sit here today, kowtowing to an amorphous force that has judged us collectively guilty, acquiescent in theory and practice, waiting for the next instructions of the totalitarian impulse that resides in so many these days.

That is all.  

 
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I was too lazy to start the thread but I can't be so lazy to at least not cut & paste what I wrote into this one 🤣

I don't agree that systemic racism is gone (as an aside I do agree with race hustler part). I was going to start a thread on this but I'll jam my thoughts in here.

People are talking past each other on this front.

A couple of basic concepts that I think need to be said to make this easier:

What is a system?  In this context it is the process/laws/procedures (i'll call it process) that we've established AND the execution of said things most typically by humans.  Most typically in the US by white humans (i'll call it people)

In some instances I would substitute the word bias for racism .  Racism is loaded and is not always accurate and therefore gets in the way of real discussion.  Bias has the same end result and much more plainly evident...you don't have to look into the soul of a person.

Our country has done an incredible job eliminating racism out of the process.  I wont say its completely out, but practically speaking it is.  This is where the conversation ends for some people...I assume Blade this is where you end it.  The system is not racist.  If we just ended here I would say that I largely agree, to the point where exceptions prove the rule.

But many of the people that administer it still have legacy bias.  I'd submit the majority of them if not all of them.  Every human truly has bias.  Some are racists.

You cannot separate the people from the system when the people are the ones that execute the system.  A jury and a judge may be implementing the non discriminatory laws , but the decisions they make will be influenced by their bias.  The lending officer may be implementing the non discriminatory lending rules but bias will enter into the interaction.  Does the lending officers bias make her more likely to recommend a certain loan vs another?  So on and so on.

The above plays out across millions of interactions every day.  We see it in policing.  The police manual doesn't say to handcuff black people differently.  But people have biases and the execution of the manual is influenced.  In some cases the bias is actually very foreseeable and not even necessarily the fault of the individual (in policing I think this is true I wrote about this and how to try to counteract it earlier).

Where do I net out on it all.  We've come an incredibly long way.  The processes are in very good shape.  The people despite everything you read are in good shape.  We can do better with the people though.  Job training is one area.  Another is the actual process itself...sometime you might need to add elements to it that are counter-intuitive to "race neutral" but can help ensure race neutrality in the execution of it by humans.   

 
So much to tackle here (and I think this should be a broad systemic racism conversation, its not confined to policing...I'd argue it is a bigger impact elsewhere).

Rock you begin to hit on something that is very important and it is this concept of people being liable for the actions of other people and the actions of people that are no longer alive.

Black people don't want to be thrown in the bucket of "career criminal".  No individual should.  No black person should bear the guilt of crimes committed by other black people.  White people don't want to be thrown in the bucket of "white supremacist" or part of "systemic racism".  No individual should.  No white person should bear the guilt of crimes committed by other white people.

This seems elementary, but we use inflammatory language that creates these camps.  Only one of these is considered politically acceptable.  For white people there is this presumption of guilt that cannot be erased.  You were born into supremacy. 

When you start to put people in these broad groups the last thing you are going to get is people working together to solve problems.  The last thing you are going to get is a colorblind society (which apparently is not want we want anymore...I lose track of whats the new PC answer).  You get anger and hate.  You are going to get defensiveness.  You are going to get miscommunication and talking past each other.  You get people feeling like #### about themselves.  You are going to have people focus only on the bad and not build on the good.  We do an incredibly poor job as a society in our language reflecting on progress and constructively building on that (only to the extent it is something they can politically point out they did).  Feeling good about progress implies you must think the job is done, implies you don't understand the past, implies you are racist because you have a positive thought.  We're not allowed to build this ladder of progress that we have all achieved together as we talk about the latest change we are making.  And most of all, we are not allowed to say you have agency over your life.  

It's this sort of thinking that makes people set up in camps about whether or not "systemic racism" exists rather than acknowledge ways to make lives better, regardless of color.  I hope my post above actually gets people to agree there is systemic racism...focusing on the ones who say it doesn't exist.  I hope my post above actually gets people to agree that we have set up a system of laws and processes that are not racist.  We can say we're working together, lets find the next way to improve.    

If the goal is improved race relations and improved conditions for black people, I don't think we're on the right path.

 
I don't feel guilty.  Fortunate may be a better term.

But, I am also self-aware enough to know that being a white male has had advantages throughout my life - some are overt, but many are hiding beneath the surface. 
This is good, I feel the same.  I am incredibly blessed in so many ways.

We need a white privledge discussion so folks don't have to talk past each other on that one too.

 
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Great topic.  Personally I don’t like the word “systemic”.  It implies, to me at least, that the racism is somehow codified in what our systems are built on - ie “laws”.  And there isn’t any racism today in law.  We’ve slayed that beast thankfully.  In today’s America it is illegal to discriminate based on immutable characteristics like race and sex.  So if you think of our systems from a legalistic standpoint, there is no systemic racism.

What I’ve learned over the years, however, is that “systemic racism” doesn’t have to apply to laws.  It could simply apply to a general assessment of our systems and institutions being unfair.  When you think of it this way the issue becomes much easier to explain and much easier for white people to acknowledge.  The easiest way to explain it is with an example...

The insurance company I used to work for was grossly underrepresented by minorities.  All the leaders were white, resulting in the minority perspective going mostly unrepresented.  This probably doesn’t sound like a big deal but it actually is.  As much as whites try to be conscious of the black viewpoint they will consistently miss the mark despite their best intentions.  They aren’t black and didn’t grow up black.  This is the part I underestimated, and I don’t think a lot of whites appreciate it enough.  Try as you might, you will never be able to see the world through another person’s eyes.  You can only get a glimpse of it.

As a result of this you get decisions being made that don’t reflect the black perspective.  For instance, HR decides to no longer give a day off on MLK Day.  In their mind it doesn’t seem like a big deal.  If blacks want to take that day off they can use one of their many PTO days.  To the black employee, however, it’s perceived as a slight.  If nothing else it’s at least a reminder that their perspectives aren’t being represented at the leadership level.  When the 9/11 day of giving is announced, the main activity being promoted is volunteering at a farm in the white suburbs.  Great cause, but as one black person put it, “Black people picking crops on a farm in a white rural area?  Doesn’t conjure up pleasant images for me”.  The group who made this decision only had good intentions, but once again they were coming at it from a whites only perspective.  By the way, in talking to that black person I learned something absolutely incredible - she said that she will never drive through white rural areas.  Never.  She is that scared.  Blew me away.

That is why I prefer the term “institutional racism” over “systemic racism”.  It has less of a legal connotation for me and is more about how groups of people bring subtle, unintentional biases to the equation.  Actually, I like that phrase “unintentional bias”.  Maybe that should be the phrase used used going forward.  It takes the blame out of it.  After all - I’ve said this before and I still believe it - the vast majority of people, white and black, are well intentioned and good hearted.  If you present things to them in a non-accusatory way you side-step their defensive walls going up and appeal to their sense of fairness.  Much better approach than calling them racist all the time.

 
My dad was racist.  I guess is racist.  We don't talk.  Not because I "divorced" my dad over being racist, he has a lot of other faults.  And after dozens of attempts at a relationship, you kind of say to hell with it.  I certainly have never considered myself racist.  I went to pre-school with black kids.  One of the pre-school teachers was black as well.  And maybe those interactions at 4/5 years old helped me see past his views.  

I was born into the world with that as my example.  And I have zero, ZERO white guilt.  My dad was who he was.  He can apologize for himself.  I'm not his keeper, and I'm certainly not him.  I don't owe anyone an explanation for the behavior of my father.  

And in that same vane, I don't owe an apology for the sins of ancestors I never even met.  As far as I've been able to trace my lineage, I don't believe anyone in my family was involved in slavery.  But I'm sure my dad wasn't the first person in our ancestry to know hate.  I'm sorry that people experienced what they've experienced.  I haven't had a part in it to apologize to you for.  I don't think I'm even capable of apologizing on behalf of America.  

All of that long winded piece out of the way--we're still far from where we need to be.  But we're a hell of a lot better than we were.  I DO absolutely think that racism exists in America today.  I DO absolutely think systemic racism exists in America today.  And those can co-exist with the politicization of racism in America.  I DO think the degree is overstated by the media and politicians.  If you watched CNN, every registered Republican wants to make slaves out of black folks and send us back to Jim Crow.  Don Lemon routinely reminds me I'm in the party of racists and nazi's.  

Charles Barkley of all people nailed it when he said:  

"I think most white people and Black people are great people. I really believe that in my heart," Barkley said. "But I think our system is set up where our politicians, whether they are Republicans or Democrats, are designed to make us not like each other so they can keep their grasp of money and power. They divide and conquer."

 
Great topic.  Personally I don’t like the word “systemic”.  It implies, to me at least, that the racism is somehow codified in what our systems are built on - ie “laws”.  And there isn’t any racism today in law.  We’ve slayed that beast thankfully.  In today’s America it is illegal to discriminate based on immutable characteristics like race and sex.  So if you think of our systems from a legalistic standpoint, there is no systemic racism.

What I’ve learned over the years, however, is that “systemic racism” doesn’t have to apply to laws.  It could simply apply to a general assessment of our systems and institutions being unfair.  When you think of it this way the issue becomes much easier to explain and much easier for white people to acknowledge.  The easiest way to explain it is with an example...

The insurance company I used to work for was grossly underrepresented by minorities.  All the leaders were white, resulting in the minority perspective going mostly unrepresented.  This probably doesn’t sound like a big deal but it actually is.  As much as whites try to be conscious of the black viewpoint they will consistently miss the mark despite their best intentions.  They aren’t black and didn’t grow up black.  This is the part I underestimated, and I don’t think a lot of whites appreciate it enough.  Try as you might, you will never be able to see the world through another person’s eyes.  You can only get a glimpse of it.

As a result of this you get decisions being made that don’t reflect the black perspective.  For instance, HR decides to no longer give a day off on MLK Day.  In their mind it doesn’t seem like a big deal.  If blacks want to take that day off they can use one of their many PTO days.  To the black employee, however, it’s perceived as a slight.  If nothing else it’s at least a reminder that their perspectives aren’t being represented at the leadership level.  When the 9/11 day of giving is announced, the main activity being promoted is volunteering at a farm in the white suburbs.  Great cause, but as one black person put it, “Black people picking crops on a farm in a white rural area?  Doesn’t conjure up pleasant images for me”.  The group who made this decision only had good intentions, but once again they were coming at it from a whites only perspective.  By the way, in talking to that black person I learned something absolutely incredible - she said that she will never drive through white rural areas.  Never.  She is that scared.  Blew me away.

That is why I prefer the term “institutional racism” over “systemic racism”.  It has less of a legal connotation for me and is more about how groups of people bring subtle, unintentional biases to the equation.  Actually, I like that phrase “unintentional bias”.  Maybe that should be the phrase used used going forward.  It takes the blame out of it.  After all - I’ve said this before and I still believe it - the vast majority of people, white and black, are well intentioned and good hearted.  If you present things to them in a non-accusatory way you side-step their defensive walls going up and appeal to their sense of fairness.  Much better approach than calling them racist all the time.
IMO this is a huge divide between people around here.  I think many on one side have the same thinking, which is why you get a lot of replies that it doesn't exist - there are no laws to reflect that.   That is not what I mean when I bring up systemic racism or systemic bias.  What I mean (and I get in the impression several others around here too) is more how the cycle of policies or systems that disproportionally effect certain races over others that could lead to different outcomes.   

To me a perfect example is the war on drugs, and what was brought up in the last several posts of the police thread.   No, there is not a law on the books that says blacks should get harsher punishments.  However, the sentences were stiffer for crack than cocaine, correct? - and one effected the black community more.  Stemming from ideas like that, it's been brought up that police were sent into black communities more because there was a better shot at a conviction/arrest because of these things.   Then the cycle begins - more blacks in prison, longer sentences, more single mothers, etc..   None of that is a law, but it's hard to deny it happened and it's effect on communities.  

That is the the type of stuff that I mean when I say systemic racism.   Not that all whites are racist and not that there are laws specifically saying to target black people.  

 
Some very thoughtful posts here. Obviously I disagree with certain key points in the OP, but I’ve expressed that before and I won’t rehash here. Instead I’d like to offer a new thought on the subject: I think a big part of the overall problem has to do with revisionist history. For example my daughters were taught about the Civil Rights Movement in their high school: they received the typical “liberal” curriculum, but there were two big problems IMO with what they were taught: 

1. The storyline, which featured the adventures of Martin Luther King Jr, was entirely about the South, below the Mason Dixon line. It was as if there has never been any racism in the rest of the country, and that we all looked on in horror as the southern states carried on their bigotry.

2. The story concludes in their history books with the triumphant passage of the 1964 Civil Rights Act. After this shining moment, racism in the USA is OVER. We need not worry about it any longer, we’re good. 
 

I believe that the way this has been taught adds to much of the confusion about this overall issue. 

 
Some very thoughtful posts here. Obviously I disagree with certain key points in the OP, but I’ve expressed that before and I won’t rehash here. Instead I’d like to offer a new thought on the subject: I think a big part of the overall problem has to do with revisionist history. For example my daughters were taught about the Civil Rights Movement in their high school: they received the typical “liberal” curriculum, but there were two big problems IMO with what they were taught: 

1. The storyline, which featured the adventures of Martin Luther King Jr, was entirely about the South, below the Mason Dixon line. It was as if there has never been any racism in the rest of the country, and that we all looked on in horror as the southern states carried on their bigotry.

2. The story concludes in their history books with the triumphant passage of the 1964 Civil Rights Act. After this shining moment, racism in the USA is OVER. We need not worry about it any longer, we’re good. 
 

I believe that the way this has been taught adds to much of the confusion about this overall issue. 
#1.  Wholeheartedly agree with this.  Even fast forward to today.  I have lived in the north and the south...of course two isolated places within those geographies but for both I was within 20 minutes of major metro areas...integration better in south, racism less in south.  I feel like "white supremacy" is what a fancy advanced degreed 30th floor sitting writer calls racism in the south...the make someone elses racism seem worst than their own.

#2.  I think this is partly right.  We could do a much better job continuing the history up to present day challenges.  Would much prefer this to other unrelated raced based idea insertion into education.

 
IMO this is a huge divide between people around here.  I think many on one side have the same thinking, which is why you get a lot of replies that it doesn't exist - there are no laws to reflect that.   That is not what I mean when I bring up systemic racism or systemic bias.  What I mean (and I get in the impression several others around here too) is more how the cycle of policies or systems that disproportionally effect certain races over others that could lead to different outcomes.   

To me a perfect example is the war on drugs, and what was brought up in the last several posts of the police thread.   No, there is not a law on the books that says blacks should get harsher punishments.  However, the sentences were stiffer for crack than cocaine, correct? - and one effected the black community more.  Stemming from ideas like that, it's been brought up that police were sent into black communities more because there was a better shot at a conviction/arrest because of these things.   Then the cycle begins - more blacks in prison, longer sentences, more single mothers, etc..   None of that is a law, but it's hard to deny it happened and it's effect on communities.  

That is the the type of stuff that I mean when I say systemic racism.   Not that all whites are racist and not that there are laws specifically saying to target black people.  


The processes are in very good shape.  The people despite everything you read are in good shape.  We can do better with the people though.  Job training is one area.  Another is the actual process itself...sometime you might need to add elements to it that are counter-intuitive to "race neutral" but can help ensure race neutrality in the execution of it by humans.   
The crack example I think is a good example of where I was trying to go with the bolded.

 
What I mean (and I get in the impression several others around here too) is more how the cycle of policies or systems that disproportionally effect certain races over others that could lead to different outcomes.   

To me a perfect example is the war on drugs, and what was brought up in the last several posts of the police thread.   No, there is not a law on the books that says blacks should get harsher punishments.  However, the sentences were stiffer for crack than cocaine, correct?
The penalties were stiffer for crack and were so disproportionate that some thought the effect of the law easily pointed to its origins -- that the disparity in crack sentencing was because it was the black drug of choice, and therefore, that the black community was targeted for extra policing. Whether or not this is fundamentally true is a debate to be had. The eighties were not friendly to the black criminal. Remember that Willie Horton swung the 1988 election. To be sure, The War On Drugs looked neutral on its face; in effect, it had a much bigger impact on those that lived in areas that were the main traffic areas for the drugs, namely cities, and that cities were populated to a large degree by blacks, some of whom were in the drug trade or were using drugs. I'd need crime and self-reporting statistics, but all conventional narratives center around highly addictive drugs like crack and the effect it had in the eighties on urban/black areas. It devastated a generation of people, both users and offspring, just by use and policing and the attendant black market that went along with it.

Great topic.  Personally I don’t like the word “systemic”.  It implies, to me at least, that the racism is somehow codified in what our systems are built on - ie “laws”.  And there isn’t any racism today in law.  We’ve slayed that beast thankfully.  In today’s America it is illegal to discriminate based on immutable characteristics like race and sex.  So if you think of our systems from a legalistic standpoint, there is no systemic racism.

What I’ve learned over the years, however, is that “systemic racism” doesn’t have to apply to laws.  It could simply apply to a general assessment of our systems and institutions being unfair. 
I think that while there isn't racism codified in law, the legacy of overtly racist laws leaves behind a legacy whereby our institutions (legal and extralegal) and places where social capital comes into play in the community are considered by those on the left to be a vestige of past racism that inhered in the law. That is what we're really dealing with. And that since the current conditions are a product of systems past, that it is systemic at present. That's the argument at the root of it. Certainly it can apply to a "general assessment of our systems and institutions being unfair," but I think we're remiss if we miss the actual nuance of the argument proffered; namely, that past racism, codified in law, has led to a systemic oppression, or current "systemic racism," as it were.

 
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but I think we're remiss if we miss the actual nuance of the argument proffered; namely, that past racism, codified in law, has led to a systemic oppression, or current "systemic racism," as it were.
I can understand this train of thought.  I'd describe it as residual generational impact from early post slavery laws.  Calling it systemic racism as a term we are using amongst 330M Americans to get people to understand something and work together will be an abject failure (think we see that in practice).  We can't work together on something that we disagree on the definition of or have no idea what the definition is (besides academics). 

And worryingly, the one thing we can't change is the past, this definition of systemic racism is in theory unsolvable as it is rooted in events that have occurred.  We can make sure the laws today are equally applied (current process is good).  We can make sure the people applying the laws do so justly (current people are good).  We can do better particularly on the latter front.  Tying this definition to something that cannot be undone seems like maybe OK for academics, but doesn't seem useful to rally the people who can impact change around.

 
I can understand this train of thought.  I'd describe it as residual generational impact from early post slavery laws.  Calling it systemic racism as a term we are using amongst 330M Americans to get people to understand something and work together will be an abject failure (think we see that in practice).  We can't work together on something that we disagree on the definition of or have no idea what the definition is (besides academics). 

And worryingly, the one thing we can't change is the past, this definition of systemic racism is in theory unsolvable as it is rooted in events that have occurred.  We can make sure the laws today are equally applied (current process is good).  We can make sure the people applying the laws do so justly (current people are good).  We can do better particularly on the latter front.  Tying this definition to something that cannot be undone seems like maybe OK for academics, but doesn't seem useful to rally the people who can impact change around.
Oh, I'm purposefully making it a brief academic exercise. I'm not thinking of the normative effect the term has. I'm thinking of where it's rooted so that we can understand academics and critical race theorists when they talk about "systemic racism." Because that, in my opinion, is the only way to have a dialogue that doesn't turn into misunderstanding that then necessitates each side feeling like they must monologue. I'm less worried about the practical effects of the term than I am getting to the crux of what it means first.

From a practical standpoint, I'd agree with you. It's not something we want to throw at the public and hope that the term sticks. A better term is a separate issue from what I was trying to do. I just wanted to start with clarity about what the academics (and this is largely coming from academia. tim will tell you that the street adopting it doesn't mean they know where it even comes from) and activists are getting at when they use the phrase.

 
As for what we can't change in the past, well, that's the next step once recognition and atonement is made. I agree with you that the past can't be changed and that each person or descendant of skin color privilege can't really be held too individually accountable for the past. But how to rectify the wrongs so that we might be at least somewhat equal before the law seems to me to be the pressing question, so there is a minimum of this privilege that inheres in our institutions and institutional actors. That's the whole point of the exercise, but it requires that recognition and atonement first, which means a common understanding of terms and positions, before redress or remedy.

And nobody will be surprised to find that my redress or remedy is not as far reaching as others would go. I do not see race as the most pressing thing in terms of decision or lawmaking. It is a concern among many, but I would first and foremost stress the individual's right to do and to be; I don't think our Marxist academic friends will really meet me there.

 
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havent read more than the OP, maybe i will, but i never seen the point i wanna make in this forum, so i'll make it and catch up later if i have to. i have a 2nd point as well, but we'll see how the 1st point comes out.

systemic racism developed because slavery created the possibility of Feudalism Lite in the American South. just like black people appear to enjoy giving it back to white folk better than elevating their own when they get a chance to do sumn these days, European colonists saw a real chance to be squires after centuries on the serving end in their homelands. so, while the North was dealing with colonialism, the South was creating an American version of feudalism. come for the cotton money, stay for the lordliness.

i hate the South. even when people are nice (probably nicer than the North overall), there's a stasis, an iron-fortified status quo, behind it. hate is fluid, almost fun in the North. down South, it's f'real - you gimme a reason, ima follow you, ima catch you, ima torture you, ima kill you, disappear or display your body, ima tell my deputy brother-in-law about it and he gonna laugh and keep my secret or enforce my right to have done it. if i hated you enough, ima hope my son will want do to your son what i wanted to do to you. and you can't do nuttin about it.

the color of the skin of African slaves made the difference clear & easy in Feudalism Lite. the fact that African slaves were participants in no aspect of European culture, religion, industrialism supported the ability to perpetuate the belief that they were an inferior species. maaaan, that was almost miraculously unlucky for black people. these days, everything a dark-skinned person does withany kind of impunity or authority interferes with a Southerner's dream of being master of all he surveys. that dream is what put Reagan across - he changed America from the Land of Opportunity to the Land of Millionaires and restored the epic ambitions of white people who need to take credit for their skin color, even though he wasnt explicitly racist himself. that #### aint going away anytime soon. it's why my writing on FFA does not seek to recruit the right to the left, but selfish people to honor, altruism. it's our only out -

 
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systemic racism developed because slavery created the possibility of Feudalism Lite in the American South. just like black people appear to enjoy giving it back to white folk better than elevating their own when they get a chance to do sumn these days, European colonists saw a real chance to be squires after centuries on the serving end in their homelands. so, while the North was dealing with colonialism, the South was creating an American version of feudalism. come for the cotton money, stay for the lordliness.
It certainly was. Historians have always talked about the aristocratic and feudal nature of the South. I've probably directed you to it before, but there's a great essay by Walter Berns that deals exactly with this notion of the South and its feudal nature.

"The exception to this, and it serves to prove the rule, was in the feudal South, a fact observed by Tocqueville when he and Beaumont first crossed the river from Ohio to Kentucky. Writing again to his father, he noted the difference between the free and the slave economies. 'For the first time we have had a chance to see the effect that slavery produces in society. On the right bank of the Ohio, everything is activity, industry, labor is honored; there are no slaves. Pass to the left bank and the scene changes so suddenly that you think yourself on the other side of the world; the enterprising spirit is gone. There, work is not only painful, it is shameful; and you degrade yourself to submitting to it. To ride, to hunt, to smoke like a Turk in the sunshine: there is the destiny of the white.' In sharp contrast with Ohio and the other free states, the life of the Southern white did depend on his being able to keep the poor down, and his destiny was to be brought down by those poor. Madison did not apparently expect such a sharp distinction between the economies of the various regions. He acknowledged that some of the states were little more than societies of 'husbandmen,' having made little progress in 'those branches of industry which give a variety and complexity to the affairs of a nation.' [H]e expected this to change with time, but it did not happen in the South. Slavery and its vestiges prevented the industrialization or 'commercialization' of the Southern economy, with the result that not until our own time did Georgia begin to resemble Massachusetts, and Atlanta, Boston. To a far greater extent than other regions of the country, the South remained rural -- in its economy, its life, and its tastes -- and, in doing so, retained some of the elements of a word not so obviously driven by a Hobbesian fear of violent death and not so keen about its complement, the right to self-preservation; in short, a less comfortable and less prosaic world. From it, therefore, could come pain, cruelty, and violence..." Berns, "The New Pursuit Of Happiness" Public Interest, 1977

 
To ride, to hunt, to smoke like a Turk in the sunshine: there is the destiny of the white.' 
Dang!.................................double dang!! How many more piquant expressions you EVER gonna find than that?! 

I've read de Tocqueville on several occasion but i dont remember that searing phrase at all. if there's anything the last five years have taught me is that there is nothing more deadly to human spirit & prosperity than people who seek to take credit for and find destiny in the position of life into which they were born. And that quote is the root right there, boy..... DANG!!!

 
As for what we can't change in the past, well, that's the next step once recognition and atonement is made. I agree with you that the past can't be changed and that each person or descendant of skin color privilege can't really be held too individually accountable for the past. But how to rectify the wrongs so that we might be at least somewhat equal before the law seems to me to be the pressing question, so there is a minimum of this privilege that inheres in our institutions and institutional actors. That's the whole point of the exercise, but it requires that recognition and atonement first, which means a common understanding of terms and positions, before redress or remedy.

And nobody will be surprised to find that my redress or remedy is not as far reaching as others would go. I do not see race as the most pressing thing in terms of decision or lawmaking. It is a concern among many, but I would first and foremost stress the individual's right to do and to be; I don't think our Marxist academic friends will really meet me there.
How exactly are we not equal before the law?

 
How exactly are we not equal before the law?
Rhetorical flourish. I meant somewhat equal in terms of result. Sorry. We are equal before the law. Before the day-to-day enforcement of the law, maybe not. But that was incorrect on my part.

 
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This is good, I feel the same.  I am incredibly blessed in so many ways.

We need a white privledge discussion so folks don't have to talk past each other on that one too.
My daughter asked me what would the USA be like if there never was slavery?  The blacks that came here were just immigrants who came here. Probably not until the mid 1900s.   The country would probably be over 80% white.    But there would still be issues and problems, fewer but still problems.  What would the social problems be?  Class warfare was my thought as the way the Irish were treated.

This might be a good topic discussion.

 
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Rhetorical flourish. I meant somewhat equal in terms of result. Sorry. We are equal before the law. Before the day-to-day enforcement of the law, maybe not. But that was incorrect on my part.
This.  We are equal before (laws) but not necessarily after ( human applicants of laws).

This can be truth and it is a truth...but in isolation it doesn’t necessarily mean anything.  The question is how much of an impact.  How much of an impact vs a decade ago.  How much of an impact vs other controllable factors.  

 
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This.  We are equal before (laws) but not necessarily after ( human applicants of laws).

This can be truth and it is a truth...but it doesn’t necessarily mean anything.  The question is how much of an impact.  How much of an impact vs a decade ago.  How much of an impact vs other controllable factors.  
Here I am, painfully trying for exacting clarity, throwing it away for something that sounds nice and hortatory or declarative. My bad.

Yes, equal before the law, maybe not equal in its application by humans, meaning that we might not be equal as a result (in terms of enforcement of existing laws, fairly and justly).

That does not preclude, also, that we might not be somewhat equal in result if we are truly to ignore the effects of former de jure racism within the law, especially as it relates to housing, transportation systems, schooling systems, taxing methodology, etc.

 
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By the way, in talking to that black person I learned something absolutely incredible - she said that she will never drive through white rural areas.  Never.  She is that scared.  Blew me away.
I was listening to Sherwin Hughes this week. If anybody wants to listen it is toward the very end of the "elsa's story" segment from thursday. He brought up irrational fear of white people and white cops. That many black people leave the house and think white people are gonna drop out of the sky and get them. Even regular white people they have never met and have never done anything to them. He then said "why would you ever respect anybody that is deathly agraid of you when you havent even done anything to them?"

 
I was listening to Sherwin Hughes this week. If anybody wants to listen it is toward the very end of the "elsa's story" segment from thursday. He brought up irrational fear of white people and white cops. That many black people leave the house and think white people are gonna drop out of the sky and get them. Even regular white people they have never met and have never done anything to them. He then said "why would you ever respect anybody that is deathly agraid of you when you havent even done anything to them?"
And that is a huge part of the psychological barriers that exist with African-American born here and why immigrant-Africans come here and are wildly successful.  It does not make any sense until you realize the level of fear and hate and animosity that is generated.  And it is the biggest reason African-Americans born here remain segregated, they are more afraid of whites than they are the ghetto.  

 
I have a Tanzanian friend.  He married an African-American woman and they have 3 boys.

He and his wife argue about these same issues we are discussing.  He is very conservative and was a big fan of Trump.  He also told me that when BLM was gaining ground and riots started occurring over George Floyd that he would post on social media that he had never experienced racism in this country. His wife and other AA friends basically told him to shut up because he wasn't helping.

I know it is just an anecdote, but it feels relevant and fascinated me at the time.

I believe the root cause of these issues is actually comparison.  Black people see what white people have and think it isn't fair.  White people see what other white people have and think they are a failure (which is why white suicide rates and drug/alcohol abuse rates are skyrocketing). It is a devastating mindset to look at others for what you don't have.

You shall not covet your neighbor’s house; you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, or his male servant, or his female servant, or his ox, or his donkey, or anything that is your neighbor’s.” Exodus 20:17

"Not that I am speaking of being in need, for I have learned in whatever situation I am to be content. I know how to be brought low, and I know how to abound. In any and every circumstance, I have learned the secret of facing plenty and hunger, abundance and need." Philippians 4:11‭-‬12

 
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While I don't want to diminish anybody's experience (and I've had mine with African immigrants saying similar things, or somewhat disparaging Americans, both black and lazily white) I don't think that holding constant for color and its many permutations is an effective way to suss out the problems with systemic racism. Race designated by law and by society is somewhat of a construct made by that society. African immigrants likely fall out of the traditional racial categories that we're talking about. What Blood Won't Tell, by Ariela Gross, a book I had to read back in law school, was a fascinating read about the permutations and legalities surrounding race and racial categories in the South and North before and after the Civil War. Race was a lot more up for grabs than we think, and any attempt to codify certain permutations as officially a "race" of people was sort of doomed and haphazard in America. In this case, I'd say that it's not just color but the American experience and performative identity that qualifies one as having a particular "race." I know that sounds sort of pie-in-the-sky liberal-minded, but it doesn't seem helpful to distinguish between African immigrants and American blacks.

 
Think I'll post this here. This is Ariela Gross discussing her book against the backdrop of President Obama's election. It's worth twenty-seven minutes if you want your jaw to drop a little bit, especially the bit about Oklahoma about nine-ten minutes in.

https://youtu.be/x0bGGoq8KJg

 
These articles argue that the effects of a very real systemic racism are still felt from the Fair Housing Administration's practice of "redlining," or refusing to underwrite mortgages to qualified black applicants while subsidizing middle-class mass housing for whites. It barely needs to be said that the government did not allow intermingling.

This is a researcher who found the original redlining maps from the HOLC - Home Owners' Loan Corporation - and made them interactive

https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2016/10/19/498536077/interactive-redlining-map-zooms-in-on-americas-history-of-discrimination

This is an article that discusses the FHA's role in securing housing for whites while moving blacks into public housing

https://www.npr.org/2017/05/03/526655831/a-forgotten-history-of-how-the-u-s-government-segregated-america

These practices both came to fruition during FDR's New Deal, when the President and his administration faced a housing shortage in 1933.

The practices, put into motion by the FHA, included disallowing blacks to move into areas with their white counterparts through the refusal to issue prime mortgages; the FHA's grading system of "A" to "F," with "F" generally being simply because blacks lived there, grades that determined who would get any mortgage; the refusal to underwrite mortgages for qualified blacks because of concerns over decreases in the value of property; specifically building walls to keep blacks out of white areas; and freeways designed not to have on-off ramps to black areas (bypassed areas) all contributed to a de jure segregation, a segregation that affected general wealth, taxation, especially with respect to school funding. Add to that the movements of whites to suburbs coinciding with industries closing down or leaving the cities, and blacks were left poor and in (vertical) mass housing, unable to reap the benefits of equity in the homes that whites were able to purchase. 

 
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I was listening to Sherwin Hughes this week. If anybody wants to listen it is toward the very end of the "elsa's story" segment from thursday. He brought up irrational fear of white people and white cops. That many black people leave the house and think white people are gonna drop out of the sky and get them. Even regular white people they have never met and have never done anything to them. He then said "why would you ever respect anybody that is deathly agraid of you when you havent even done anything to them?"
I would argue that given their history with the United States government, American blacks have a good reason to be deathly afraid of government actions or government agents. Whether they should be afraid of white people writ large is something I was trying to address in my second post. I found that impulse to be a totalitarian impulse (in the sense of the word "total," meaning everything included) which is rooted in a Marxist/communitarian worldview where the political becomes personal. In other words, the thinking goes that because we have officials that behave a certain way, that means that we either expressly or tacitly approve of their actions and regulations, which is demonstrably false.

 
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I also want to be clear: the biggest barriers to African-Americans currently is not white privilege and systemic racism themselves, but the continued denial of their existence by non-racist conservatives like @jon_mx and others that agree with him. They (jon and those who share his views) are, in their denial, preventing us from taking unified steps to resolve these problems, 

 
I would argue that given their history with the United States government, American blacks have a good reason to be deathly afraid of government actions or government agents. Whether they should be afraid of white people writ large is something I was trying to address in my second post.
If you agree with the first part of your statement (they should be deathly afraid of the government) then I see no reason why the second part would not follow (they should be deathly afraid of white people).

White people were the government.

I don’t think they should be deathly afraid of either.

I don’t trust either (the government or white people) and I’d say in 2021 black people should have a moderate degree higher than me.  If my level is 4 maybe I’d be a 6 if black (obviously not scientific).

Walking around deathly afraid is silly if you are a law abiding citizen.

 
It certainly was. Historians have always talked about the aristocratic and feudal nature of the South. I've probably directed you to it before, but there's a great essay by Walter Berns that deals exactly with this notion of the South and its feudal nature.

"The exception to this, and it serves to prove the rule, was in the feudal South, a fact observed by Tocqueville when he and Beaumont first crossed the river from Ohio to Kentucky. Writing again to his father, he noted the difference between the free and the slave economies. 'For the first time we have had a chance to see the effect that slavery produces in society. On the right bank of the Ohio, everything is activity, industry, labor is honored; there are no slaves. Pass to the left bank and the scene changes so suddenly that you think yourself on the other side of the world; the enterprising spirit is gone. There, work is not only painful, it is shameful; and you degrade yourself to submitting to it. To ride, to hunt, to smoke like a Turk in the sunshine: there is the destiny of the white.' In sharp contrast with Ohio and the other free states, the life of the Southern white did depend on his being able to keep the poor down, and his destiny was to be brought down by those poor. Madison did not apparently expect such a sharp distinction between the economies of the various regions. He acknowledged that some of the states were little more than societies of 'husbandmen,' having made little progress in 'those branches of industry which give a variety and complexity to the affairs of a nation.' [H]e expected this to change with time, but it did not happen in the South. Slavery and its vestiges prevented the industrialization or 'commercialization' of the Southern economy, with the result that not until our own time did Georgia begin to resemble Massachusetts, and Atlanta, Boston. To a far greater extent than other regions of the country, the South remained rural -- in its economy, its life, and its tastes -- and, in doing so, retained some of the elements of a word not so obviously driven by a Hobbesian fear of violent death and not so keen about its complement, the right to self-preservation; in short, a less comfortable and less prosaic world. From it, therefore, could come pain, cruelty, and violence..." Berns, "The New Pursuit Of Happiness" Public Interest, 1977
My problem with this analysis is that the vast majority of whites in the south never owned any slaves at all and were dirt poor, and it was more often that the dirt poor whites were bigger racists than the wealthy whites, and this continued on well past the slave days, into Jim Crow and still today. 
And again, you and @wikkidpissah, by focusing on the south, are ignoring the long history of systemic racism against blacks in every other part of the country, 

 
I also want to be clear: the biggest barriers to African-Americans currently is not white privilege and systemic racism themselves, but the continued denial of their existence by non-racist conservatives like @jon_mx and others that agree with him. They (jon and those who share his views) are, in their denial, preventing us from taking unified steps to resolve these problems, 
I want to be clear, I could not disagree more with this baseless statement and have elaborated in the police shooting thread what I believe the biggest barriers are and the reasons why.

I also want to be clear, I don’t support anybody’s denials.

 
If you agree with the first part of your statement (they should be deathly afraid of the government) then I see no reason why the second part would not follow (they should be deathly afraid of white people).

White people were the government.

I don’t think they should be deathly afraid of either.

I don’t trust either (the government or white people) and I’d say in 2021 black people should have a moderate degree higher than me.  If my level is 4 maybe I’d be a 6 if black (obviously not scientific).

Walking around deathly afraid is silly if you are a law abiding citizen.
In modern history, blacks have very good reason to be afraid of local government, but not federal government. Federal government, at times, has been very good to them. 

 
I want to be clear, I could not disagree more with this baseless statement and have elaborated in the police shooting thread what I believe the biggest barriers are and the reasons why.

I also want to be clear, I don’t support anybody’s denials.
It’s not baseless, it’s pretty simple: I and most other liberals believe that federal action is necessary to solve this problem: a combination of nationwide rules and restrictions involving police training and behavior, changes in our judicial system, and an infusion of money into our inner cities, Those that deny white privilege and systemic racism support politicians who oppose these ideas and prevent them from happening. That’s why they, IMO, are the biggest barrier. 

 
It’s not baseless, it’s pretty simple: I and most other liberals believe that federal action is necessary to solve this problem: a combination of nationwide rules and restrictions involving police training and behavior, changes in our judicial system, and an infusion of money into our inner cities, Those that deny white privilege and systemic racism support politicians who oppose these ideas and prevent them from happening. That’s why they, IMO, are the biggest barrier. 
I understand what you believe, won’t re-address it less than 24hrs laters as it was discussed ad naseum by several posters in the other thread.

 
I understand what you believe, won’t re-address it less than 24hrs laters as it was discussed ad naseum by several posters in the other thread.
Right. I wasn’t trying to rehash my position on what needs to be done, I was actually trying to make a different point that hadn’t been touched on before: that the deniers of racism are a bigger problem than the racists themselves in terms of preventing solutions. 

 
While I don't want to diminish anybody's experience (and I've had mine with African immigrants saying similar things, or somewhat disparaging Americans, both black and lazily white) I don't think that holding constant for color and its many permutations is an effective way to suss out the problems with systemic racism. Race designated by law and by society is somewhat of a construct made by that society. African immigrants likely fall out of the traditional racial categories that we're talking about. What Blood Won't Tell, by Ariela Gross, a book I had to read back in law school, was a fascinating read about the permutations and legalities surrounding race and racial categories in the South and North before and after the Civil War. Race was a lot more up for grabs than we think, and any attempt to codify certain permutations as officially a "race" of people was sort of doomed and haphazard in America. In this case, I'd say that it's not just color but the American experience and performative identity that qualifies one as having a particular "race." I know that sounds sort of pie-in-the-sky liberal-minded, but it doesn't seem helpful to distinguish between African immigrants and American blacks.
If we were looking to set up an experiment to identify why african-american have difficulty in advancing economically, examining the success of immigrant Africans present an ideal situation to change one variable to understand the root cause.  It provides rock-solid evidence that many of the barriers are self-imposed and do not come from external forces.  I am 100 percent certain you could wave a wand and fix police violence tomorrow, it would barely be a blip on the radar.  

 
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timschochet said:
I could not disagree more with this analysis. It flies in the face of reality. 
I strongly recommend the writing of Ta-Nehisi Coates on this subject, and also the book White Rage by Carol Anderson. 
Where is this "White Rage"  In my day to day life meeting and talking to hundreds of people I have yet to hear any type of rage coming from anyone.  At work, at games, at parties. How can a black writer write about white rage, or a white writer talk about black rage if they don`t live it?

Also..what are you doing up posting at 430AM??😄

 
Where is this "White Rage"  In my day to day life meeting and talking to hundreds of people I have yet to hear any type of rage coming from anyone.  At work, at games, at parties. How can a black writer write about white rage, or a white writer talk about black rage if they don`t live it?

Also..what are you doing up posting at 430AM??😄
I urge you to read the book- can’t summarize in a few sentences. 
I fell asleep at 8:30 last night, woke up at 4. Weird. 

 
Where is this "White Rage"  In my day to day life meeting and talking to hundreds of people I have yet to hear any type of rage coming from anyone.  At work, at games, at parties. How can a black writer write about white rage, or a white writer talk about black rage if they don`t live it?

Also..what are you doing up posting at 430AM??😄
 
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Right. I wasn’t trying to rehash my position on what needs to be done, I was actually trying to make a different point that hadn’t been touched on before: that the deniers of racism are a bigger problem than the racists themselves in terms of preventing solutions. 
Ok, that’s not what you wrote though.  

 
I urge you to read the book- can’t summarize in a few sentences. 
I fell asleep at 8:30 last night, woke up at 4. Weird. 
I just read some reviews.  The title "white rage" came as sort of a backlash from people using the term "black rage" all the time.  I get it now.

 
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I urge you to read the book- can’t summarize in a few sentences. 
I fell asleep at 8:30 last night, woke up at 4. Weird. 
From the reviews it seems the book provides an excellent background of the history of racism, but only provides cursory anecdotal evidence in trying to show how that impacts today.  So in other words, it adds nothing.  

 
Right. I wasn’t trying to rehash my position on what needs to be done, I was actually trying to make a different point that hadn’t been touched on before: that the deniers of racism are a bigger problem than the racists themselves in terms of preventing solutions. 
And I provided an actual case on why I think the opposite is true, that leftism's approach is the root cause.  You have not.  Your ridiculous overused trope of the term denier also is not helpful.

 
Charles Barkley of all people nailed it when he said:  

"I think most white people and Black people are great people. I really believe that in my heart," Barkley said. "But I think our system is set up where our politicians, whether they are Republicans or Democrats, are designed to make us not like each other so they can keep their grasp of money and power. They divide and conquer."
Throw the media into this pile, and I agree with Charles whole-heartedly.  There are still a lot of problems that need to be solved, but the media throws gasoline on everything and gets people riled up (in both directions - the liberal media turns everything into race no matter what now, the conservative media acts like race should never be an issue).  That is why I have zero hope for anything to get better anytime soon.  The media and politicians will make it to where that is impossible.  As usual, there is a lot of middle ground on these issues, but the "divide and conquer" strategy will continue to drive far too many to the extreme. 

 

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