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Challenges Of A Forum With A Business (1 Viewer)

Joe Bryant

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Not sure why I'm sharing but thought this was interesting. We get these type of situations repeatedly every year.

This week a poster wrote in the NBA thread:

"Blonde kuzma looks like a lesbian"
This was reported and he was suspended as he should have been. That's well over what we allow.

They wrote to the Moderators:
 

This morning, I was banned again for making a joke about Kyle Kuzma's appearance in the NBA thread.  Was the joke in slightly poor taste? Probably.  But a month ban with no warning is beyond ridiculous. I understand that the board (and what is acceptable on it) is not the same as it was 5 or 10 years ago (and that policing it is not easy), but its just really disappointing that the moderator (whoever it was) thought this ban was necessary (when I assure you a simple PM warning would have sufficed)

I'm not writing this to ask you remove the ban. Its your board and you're going to run it the way you feel is best for your business. I'm simply going to vote with my wallet this year. Even in years where I didn't take Fantasy Football seriously (just playing in a minimal buy in friends and family league just for fun) I still subbed to FBG's to support the boards and the community they foster.   This year, I wont be doing so. 

I'm not expecting you or your team to weep over missing out on my $35 this year. (You've obviously got plenty of other subs and produce a great product). I just believe that members of the community (especially those who have been there since the beginning) deserve a little more respect than an insta-ban from a faceless mod over a silly joke.
It's an interesting discussion. We do things way differently than tons of sites. I don't know if our way is the right way. But I know it's how we're going to operate. We don't allow people to post like that. It's not about us trying to be "woke" or PC or whatever. It's about being more cool in general. Also, the "Do you know who I am? / I've been here a long time and deserve special treatment" shtick doesn't go far with us. 

On the other hand, this is a business. Without paying customers at Footballguys, this forum doesn't exist. So it's not totally one sided.

Bottom line is we'll lose a few like this person. That's how it goes and it's likely just part of doing business. Still sucks though. 

And thanks for letting me whine. 

 
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I saw the post, don’t remember who made it. I think you guys could be a little easier on the long time-outs like that if it isn’t a recurring problem (don’t know if it was here or not). Sometimes people make jokes that step over the line but the ‘punishment’ is a lot harsher than it should be. You have logs of timeouts people have been given so it shouldn’t be much work to see if it’s deserved or not. 
 

I understand it’s a business but nobody is going to stop subscribing because they saw a poster make a joke like that, especially if it got deleted fairly quick. You’re far more likely to run loyal subscribers off with uneven punishments though. Jmo 

 
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I saw the post, don’t remember who made it. I think you guys could be a little easier on the long time-outs like that if it isn’t a recurring problem (don’t know if it was here or not). Sometimes people make jokes that step a little over the line but the ‘punishment’ is a lot harsher than it should be. 
 

I understand it’s a business but nobody is going to stop subscribing because they saw a poster make a joke like that, especially if it got deleted fairly quick. You’re far more likely to run loyal subscribers off with uneven punishments though. Jmo 
No doubt. Trying to be even on suspensions is a challenge for sure. This one was 30 days which was right in line with others. The reality I think is having a forum that's moderated with suspensions will always cost money in lost business. It's a rarity when a poster feels their suspension was deserved. It's always the "who me?" for those. Discouraging but it's life. 

 
I totally get both sides - as a somewhat long time poster with a lot of volume (posts) I get the idea of "hey, just tell me to settle down but don't ban me for a month" - there's a reason I posted here for so many years.  I think this is a fun place to spend my online time.  I've dedicated (read: wasted) countless hours in this community and on some level that should be worth something.  I'll be honest - I got a month off a while back and considered whether I should spend my time elsewhere.

But, I totally get why it's not worth the hassle to figure out - "ok, this guy has been here X years and has Y posts so I'll be more lenient here" - where do you draw the line?

My thought on it would be this - if it's easy enough, instead of a TO for something like that (something that is obviously a joke and not ill-intended) - hide the post and let the person know next time it's a TO.  If that's not a simple thing then just keep it the way that it is.  I think TOs for jokes should be limited to ones that are truly in bad taste (this one may apply).

For what it's worth, I think you guys balance this pretty well - and despite the complaints I do think most of us who have been around a long time are very appreciative of the community you've built.  I wouldn't keep coming back if I wasn't.

 
all i know is it must stink to have to deal with and i salute you for not just shutting this whole thing down honestly it must be tempting at times so thanks for not doing that this is a nice outlet for me and i appreciate it take that to the bank joemigo 

 
No doubt. Trying to be even on suspensions is a challenge for sure. This one was 30 days which was right in line with others. The reality I think is having a forum that's moderated with suspensions will always cost money in lost business. It's a rarity when a poster feels their suspension was deserved. It's always the "who me?" for those. Discouraging but it's life. 
Well if everybody feels that way have you considered the suspensions may be uneven to the actual act that occurred. 
 

I think 30 days for a joke (if not a recurring problem) is way out of line but I’m not going to cancel a subscription over it. But I understand why some would. A whole, whole lot of people have left these boards for good too, likely a decent amount were subscribers. I do think you all are a little heavy handed with the bans and it wouldn’t surprise me if it cost you. 

 
I totally get both sides - as a somewhat long time poster with a lot of volume (posts) I get the idea of "hey, just tell me to settle down but don't ban me for a month" - there's a reason I posted here for so many years.  I think this is a fun place to spend my online time.  I've dedicated (read: wasted) countless hours in this community and on some level that should be worth something.  I'll be honest - I got a month off a while back and considered whether I should spend my time elsewhere.

But, I totally get why it's not worth the hassle to figure out - "ok, this guy has been here X years and has Y posts so I'll be more lenient here" - where do you draw the line?

My thought on it would be this - if it's easy enough, instead of a TO for something like that (something that is obviously a joke and not ill-intended) - hide the post and let the person know next time it's a TO.  If that's not a simple thing then just keep it the way that it is.  I think TOs for jokes should be limited to ones that are truly in bad taste (this one may apply).

For what it's worth, I think you guys balance this pretty well - and despite the complaints I do think most of us who have been around a long time are very appreciative of the community you've built.  I wouldn't keep coming back if I wasn't.
Agreed. The perfect answer is for the moderators to be massively more involved and hide more and warn more and do way more handholding. We just don't have the time to get to that level and investigate every case.

 
Well if everybody feels that way have you considered the suspensions may be uneven to the actual act that occurred. 
 

I think 30 days for a joke (if not a recurring problem) is way out of line but I’m not going to cancel a subscription over it. But I understand why some would. A whole, whole lot of people have left these boards for good too, likely a decent amount were subscribers. I do think you all are a little heavy handed with the bans and it wouldn’t surprise me if it cost you. 
Thanks. I'm certain it costs us. That's the whole point of the post. I'm sure there are more. 

 
No doubt. Trying to be even on suspensions is a challenge for sure. This one was 30 days which was right in line with others. The reality I think is having a forum that's moderated with suspensions will always cost money in lost business. It's a rarity when a poster feels their suspension was deserved. It's always the "who me?" for those. Discouraging but it's life. 
I got many deserved suspensions.  Some not so much but I am sure my history fed in, so deserved too.

This is an unsolvable problem.  Just do the best you can.

 
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I think your moderation is heavy handed.  Everything is a suspension, and very few short suspensions.  How about a few days or a week if the transgression isn't too serious and the poster isn't a frequent offender?  But it's your board.  Run it how you feel.  I think you underestimate how many paid subscribers you lose as a result though.

 
all i know is it must stink to have to deal with and i salute you for not just shutting this whole thing down honestly it must be tempting at times so thanks for not doing that this is a nice outlet for me and i appreciate it take that to the bank joemigo 
Thank you bromingo. Shutting it down regularly comes up in discussion. Most of the staff thinks I"m an idiot for continuing to pour money and resources into it. I do love the positives. And I'm 100% certain doing our best to moderate and weed out the over the line posts is a large factor in why the board is a positive for many folks. 

 
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Thanks. I'm certain it costs us. That's the whole point of the post. I'm sure there are more. 
Well I guess I don’t get the point then. You already know it’s costing you and everybody appreciates how you keep the board clean = seems like there is a middle ground there that can effectively continue to promote both sides. 

 
I think your moderation is heavy handed.  Everything is a suspension, and very few short suspensions.  How about a few days or a week if the transgression isn't too serious and the poster isn't a frequent offender?  But it's your board.  Run it how you feel.  I think you underestimate how many paid subscribers you lose as a result though.
A good example of what I mean. Do you know how many suspensions are a few hours or a day or two? Lots. But that's not public info. All that's public is the guy whining "I got 30 days for NOTHING". And that's what people think. The reality is most suspensions are for a short time. 

 
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A good example of what I mean. Do you know how many suspensions are a few hours or a day or two? Lots. But that's not public info. All that's public is the "I got 30 days for NOTHING". And that's what people think. The reality is most suspensions are for a short time. 
This is good to hear.  Thanks.  :thumbup:

 
I used to pay for a subscription to try to pay my bit to support the site as well because I love the community here, even though I only play in one FF league - one that's more about the music draft we do here with said community. Plus I like the baseball forum, hockey threads, etc... I can't remember the last time I was in the shark pool. 

I probably won't do that anymore after a 4 month ban last year for a simple joke stolen from Twitter. 

:shrug:

 
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I feel them on some levels. Moderation, the departure of Dodds, and  overall tone from leadership (on politics, social justice, etc) are why I'll also be shifting my FF subscription spend elsewhere. 

I'd been trying other sites over the last few years while retaining FBG. This year those factors (combined with a perceived dip in relative accuracy) have me officially pulling the plug. 

Will likely still be active on the forums in spurts here and there, and do wish the FBG crew nothing but the best. 
 

 
I feel them on some levels. Moderation, the departure of Dodds, and  overall tone from leadership (on politics, social justice, etc) are why I'll also be shifting my FF subscription spend elsewhere. 

I'd been trying other sites over the last few years while retaining FBG. This year those factors (combined with a perceived dip in relative accuracy) have me officially pulling the plug. 
Thanks for the insight and sorry to hear that. I appreciate the support in the past as a customer. 

 
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If I learned anything here, it's this:

It = info.

I've been suspended briefly a few times iirc- a couple for innocuous, but over a line stuff, one for something that made no sense to me at the time (that's all I remember about it). It's useful to me to see stuff like your op here that's not ok and why you guys think it's not ok...but I get that runs into essentially allowing and showing stuff you don't want up here. Maybe a pinned thread that covers some more black/white things? It's a fine line managing issues of taste/bad-taste, especially with humor and current shifts in social mores...just keep doing the best you can and hopefully explaining clearky why you're zapping somebody.

 
That particular joke would not have made me bat an eye in scrolling through the forums as something that was unacceptable. Glad I didn't make the joke and catch the harsh punishment but am curious what it was that set the moderator off to the degree that they did.

 
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These boards being useful and not following the path of most others is one of the top reasons why I subscribe.  The FFA last year easily knocked 1-2 years off my retirement age.  This is one wallet vote for the messageboards.
Oh yea, the stock thread here is incredibly valuable and a main reason I will continue to subscribe regardless of the bannings thing.  

 
I feel them on some levels. Moderation, the departure of Dodds, and  overall tone from leadership (on politics, social justice, etc) are why I'll also be shifting my FF subscription spend elsewhere. 

I'd been trying other sites over the last few years while retaining FBG. This year those factors (combined with a perceived dip in relative accuracy) have me officially pulling the plug. 

Will likely still be active on the forums in spurts here and there, and do wish the FBG crew nothing but the best. 
 
Have you found any other boards as good as this one?  

I understand your position, but do you get Tipsy to come cook with you at Rotogrinders?  Does the owner of FFToday talk BBQ with you?  I realize that there are many things on the "cons" list, but are you taking the time to assemble the "pro" list?  

Did @Chadstromasave you a few hundred on a mortgage?

Did @Todem make you hundreds / thousands on Bloomin Onion?

Did "get your popcorn ready" guy knock a year off your retirement?

Did the guy who stated the Coronavirus thread give you a heads up such that your significant other wasn't using newspaper for TP for 3 months?

Did @icongive you a great tip on where to find ammo?

I've had my disagreements with J in the past on several subjects, but I don't know a business owner that works harder and is more engaged with his customers.  

 
You have an unsolvable problem here. I appreciate what you do and I've spent a lot of time reading and posting here over the last 20 years. I will continue subscribing.

The uneven manner in which suspensions are doled out is a bigger problem. I just returned from a 6+ month (!) suspension for a post that IMO was significantly less inflammatory than the average content certain other regular posters manage to get away with. I know you've heard this a thousand times, and the offending post was in the political forum, where no one gets out alive, but it sure seems like a lot of really good posters have abandoned this place in the last couple of years, and discourse has suffered for it. My impression is that uneven suspensions are a big factor in the exodus.

Thank you for letting me whine, and for doing your best, Joe. I will reflect inward and try to be better.

 
I owe a debt of gratitude for the boards and I try to be a good part of them too. In my younger days i spent thousands of hours producing unpaid content in the shark pool. It was the perfect time waster for me when I used to teach training classes all day. I don't do that as much anymore but I have tried to contribute in a positive way in the weight loss threads and fred and Greg's thread. And I have definitely benefitted from being here. A big part of my success in getting healthy recently has been support of this community. It may literally have saved my life, and I'd like to be the same support for others. 

 
I wasn't going to post this, but you did ask...

After the election Biden was giving his victory speech. I mentioned in a thread that he was being very kind and rising above the level of pettiness that his opponent was so well known for. I said he was clearly a better man than me and could have busted out the "you're fired" shtick but that wasn't creative enough and he could have went with something like "we beat this virus, meaning Trumpism, and onto the next (Covid)."

That got me a 4 month plus timeout. I wasn't personally attacking anyone here, simply engaging in commentary about elected officials and their behavior. I think the events following the election and the attack on the capitol more than prove my point (but then again so did four plus years of bad behavior before.)

I actually did send an email apologizing for probably using too charged of language and asking for a reduced sentence.

Not how I would run my business but it's not my business. Obviously I'm back but very frustrating to be treated with such excessive use of force over what to me at least did not rise to the level of offending any terms here. Not sure how criticizing elected officials should get anyone a timeout. It is what it is though and it's a shame because I know for me at least it makes me really hesitate to engage in conversation around anything other than the most mild topics. I've also seen how over policing can drive posters away and outright kill a message board. (RIP the Huddle forums)

 
I owe a debt of gratitude for the boards and I try to be a good part of them too. In my younger days i spent thousands of hours producing unpaid content in the shark pool. It was the perfect time waster for me when I used to teach training classes all day. I don't do that as much anymore but I have tried to contribute in a positive way in the weight loss threads and fred and Greg's thread. And I have definitely benefitted from being here. A big part of my success in getting healthy recently has been support of this community. It may literally have saved my life, and I'd like to be the same support for others. 
Had to cut my earlier post short because I had to poo but that caused me to remember that I forgot to mention Dr. @bostonfred and his weight loss threads.  WW is going to charge you more than J does to host Dr. Fred.

 
Had to cut my earlier post short because I had to poo but that caused me to remember that I forgot to mention Dr. @bostonfred and his weight loss threads.  WW is going to charge you more than J does to host Dr. Fred.
Just to be clear I am not a doctor and this is not medical advice. Consult your doctor before beginning this or any diet or exercise program.

 
I wasn't going to post this, but you did ask...

After the election Biden was giving his victory speech. I mentioned in a thread that he was being very kind and rising above the level of pettiness that his opponent was so well known for. I said he was clearly a better man than me and could have busted out the "you're fired" shtick but that wasn't creative enough and he could have went with something like "we beat this virus, meaning Trumpism, and onto the next (Covid)."

That got me a 4 month plus timeout. I wasn't personally attacking anyone here, simply engaging in commentary about elected officials and their behavior. I think the events following the election and the attack on the capitol more than prove my point (but then again so did four plus years of bad behavior before.)

I actually did send an email apologizing for probably using too charged of language and asking for a reduced sentence.

Not how I would run my business but it's not my business. Obviously I'm back but very frustrating to be treated with such excessive use of force over what to me at least did not rise to the level of offending any terms here. Not sure how criticizing elected officials should get anyone a timeout. It is what it is though and it's a shame because I know for me at least it makes me really hesitate to engage in conversation around anything other than the most mild topics. I've also seen how over policing can drive posters away and outright kill a message board. (RIP the Huddle forums)
Hi cap'n grunge. looks like you were suspended talking about Trump posting 

"we banished one virus, onto the next."
This after months of the moderators begging people to be more cool and private warnings and such. 

This is a good example of how it would be awesome to have the manpower to investigate and talk through things with posters and then surgically remove the offending posts after we investigate and get clarification. For sure, Trumpism is different than Trump. There are tons of nuances like that. The reality is we just don't have the time. When the forums are metaphorically burning down and things way over the line are happening everywhere, the moderators wind up trying to put fires out as quickly as possible. And the truth is the result is always not perfect. 

 
The unsolvable problem line mentioned here a few times is absolutely right. Do I agree with the 3 1/2 month suspension I got for a joke, no. Super heavy handed in my opinion, but the key part of that statement is “my opinion”.  I lurk at a few other forums, one a well known competitor. How they manage the forum is far different than you Joe, it’s a literal cesspool. I am not an easily offended person in anyway shape or form, but some of the stuff I read over there makes my skin crawl it so offensive. So if thats what this would turn into without heavy-handed moderation, bring on the heavy handed moderation.  

I’m a massive fan of the product you and your awesome team produce. And as others have said this forum has been a wealth of information across multiple topics for me.  
 

TL:DR. Bottom line keep doing you Joe. This place rocks

 
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On the other hand, this is a business. Without paying customers at Footballguys, this forum doesn't exist. So it's not totally one sided.

Bottom line is we'll lose a few like this person. That's how it goes and it's likely just part of doing business. Still sucks though. 
A couple of thoughts:

1.  You would lose money if you ditched the forums.  The forums add value, awareness and stickiness to customers. 

2.  I have had been a paying subscriber since 2007.  Last year was the first year I did not buy a subscription - and it was directly related to the way you, personally, treated me in the forums.  It must not suck that bad.

 
A couple of thoughts:

1.  You would lose money if you ditched the forums.  The forums add value, awareness and stickiness to customers. 

2.  I have had been a paying subscriber since 2007.  Last year was the first year I did not buy a subscription - and it was directly related to the way you, personally, treated me in the forums.  It must not suck that bad.
I'm sorry to hear that, @Sinn Fein

1. I'm not sure how I've personally treated you. I don't recall any specific interactions and I apologize it it was unkind.

2. It definitely sucks. 

 
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It’s much easier to see the cost of folks who have left, than the gain of people who are here and subscribe because of the way things are run.

I know Reddit had a really lax moderation policy for a long time. Then some pretty awful things (racism, sexism, extremist politics, underage porn, revenge porn, etc) started to gain more traction. It gained some media attention and Reddit started to moderate much more heavily and banned a bunch of subreddits and accounts. 

Reddit did receive a lot of criticism from some folks and there were a lot of people that did decide to leave. 

Today Reddit is the 20th most visited website in the world with 1.6B monthly visits. One could argue that if they had allowed the extreme content to proliferate, there are a lot of people that would not use Reddit for that reason. It’s impossible to quantify that IMO, but I think it’s clear that the number of folks who left over moderation most likely are vastly outweighed by the number of people who would stay away if it wasn’t moderated like it is.

Obviously there’s always balance to things and ultimately you have to feel good with the way your business represents you and with the community that you create. There’s no way to make 100% of people happy and sometimes doing what we believe is right does come with a cost. Being willing to still do what you believe is right despite the cost shows integrity in your beliefs.

 
I do want to thank you Joe though for continuing to offer this forum. I know you have the best of intentions and that is important. I have really enjoyed it over the years and hope to for years to come. I just don't want it to die out because of an excessively heavy handed approach. Thanks also to all the great contributors, both in the football threads and the FFA and politics forums. 

 
Why not give out warnings?  You clipped me for 3 months for laughing at trump voters that thought the election was rigged.  I think you go way overboard most of the time and you are losing posters because of it 
We do give lots of warnings. Not sure what you're referring to on laughing. The moderation log has you being reported and suspended for calling people "moronic.". We definitely don't want that. 

 
We do give lots of warnings. Not sure what you're referring to on laughing. The moderation log has you being reported and suspended for calling people "moronic.". We definitely don't want that. 
I've never received a warning.  And I didn't call anyone specifically moronic just the folks that was saying the election was stolen.  Kind of a big difference. All I am saying is you tend to be heavy handed.  I mean a 4 month ban?????

 
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A good example of what I mean. Do you know how many suspensions are a few hours or a day or two? Lots. But that's not public info. All that's public is the guy whining "I got 30 days for NOTHING". And that's what people think. The reality is most suspensions are for a short time. 
This is what I was coming to say.  It seems like a long time for the joke comment (as someone else has mentioned it appears to be an obvious joke without bad intentions).  This level of ban seems to be for repeat offender status or someone that was specifically told to refrain from this type of banter.   

I understand that a system of varying lengths and tracking could be very cumbersome and it's easier to just ban and move on.  

Being someone that has never been banned but seeing what some people have been banned for it does seem somewhat random.  It's also really hard to read tone in a message board post so some jokes could be taken way out of context and not meant to "land" certain ways when posted but could rub a moderator the wrong way.  It's an impossible job to keep everyone happy.

For me communication regarding the incident seems to be what is missing (banned harshly (30 days) out of the blue according to the poster).  If this wasn't a first offense of this type maybe it isn't out of the blue and is the next step.  As with most conflicts, a lack of communication usually leads to discontent.  This could be the case here.

Anyway, there is no real solution other than do what you can and try and be as consistent as possible.  For me, I try to not take anything on a message board seriously so nothing seems like that big of deal to me for most cases.  

 
Agreed. The perfect answer is for the moderators to be massively more involved and hide more and warn more and do way more handholding. We just don't have the time to get to that level and investigate every case.
I don't agree that that is the perfect answer or only option.  Every joke has the potential to offend someone.  In regards to the Kuzma joke, if you polled the forum, I suspect only a small minority would find it offensive.  Most will agree that spam and pornographic content should be moderated.  Opinions on hurt feelings are likely more divided, but this joke doesn't appear to be a direct attack on a poster or any marginalized group.

It's your business so you get to decide how to moderate the forum in the best interest of your business's success.  I think you've said that you keep the forum running despite it not being a revenue generator, but I would disagree with that assessment as well.  It helps attract and retain people who would otherwise consider other options.  Fantasy players who derive value from your service are unlikely to cancel because they were offended by some opinions in the forum.  But those who are banned for minor offenses are more likely to turn away.  And most of them will do it quietly so you won't really be able to quantify the impact.

 
Thanks @GroveDiesel I agree for sure with this. It's just a reality of life the negative often is more visible. 
Just have to watch the news to see this.

Do you happen to know what percentage of bans are due to posts in each sub-forum? I’m betting that a large percentage of bans over the last year have been from posts in the Politics forum.

Tangent:

It’s amazing/sad to me how consuming politics has become for so many and how much emotion it stirs up in people. I know I started to get sucked down that hole and backing away has done wonders for my mental health and for how I view/treat others. I saw the same thing happen to my aunt though she was way further down that hole than me even though most of her connection wasn’t even online. She recently took a step back and is happier than she has been in a long time.

And Joe, I think you touch on the other important thing: it’s just simply not possible to moderate things exactly like you would want because of the volume of posting. The giants like Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, YouTube, etc demonstrate this over and over again. It’s not financially viable to hire enough humans to apply uniform moderation standards. It’s why a ton of sites simply turned off comments on articles.

 

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