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Prenups (1 Viewer)

Terminalxylem

Footballguy
A friend is planning to propose to his girlfriend next month. I asked how things were going, to which he replied, “ok, I’m just having some second thoughts about my decision, but I guess that is normal.”

He went on to tell me they had visited a relationship counselor, who seemed more interested in talking about himself than addressing their problems. I suggested they seek another counselor, which he said was already in the works.

He then asked what I thought about prenuptial agreements.

Being married twice, I'd never considered one. And while I’m far from a romantic, the idea kinda seems counterproductive to the prospects of a lifelong commitment IMO. I say this even after being blindsided by my divorce. But ultimately that ended amicably, and we didn’t even need a lawyer.

He replied there was a big disparity in their premarital assets, and he just wanted to protect himself if things didn’t work out. He added he’d spoken to a friend who is going through an ugly divorce, whose wife is trying to “take everything”. He’s the one who suggested the prenup.

Thoughts?

 
A friend is planning to propose to his girlfriend next month. I asked how things were going, to which he replied, “ok, I’m just having some second thoughts about my decision, but I guess that is normal.”

He went on to tell me they had visited a relationship counselor, who seemed more interested in talking about himself than addressing their problems. I suggested they seek another counselor, which he said was already in the works.

He then asked what I thought about prenuptial agreements.

Being married twice, I'd never considered one. And while I’m far from a romantic, the idea kinda seems counterproductive to the prospects of a lifelong commitment IMO. I say this even after being blindsided by my divorce. But ultimately that ended amicably, and we didn’t even need a lawyer.

He replied there was a big disparity in their premarital assets, and he just wanted to protect himself if things didn’t work out. He added he’d spoken to a friend who is going through an ugly divorce, whose wife is trying to “take everything”. He’s the one who suggested the prenup.

Thoughts?
Great question. 

Qualifiers here:

1. I'm an idealist.

2. I'm in a small minority and I know that.

3. I'm hypocritical.

With that said, I hate pre nups. I know people say it's prudent and wise and all that. I see it more as planning to fail. From what you wrote above, second thoughts and making sure the pre nup is in place feel like two huge red flags. 

I have a good friend who does financial work with wealthy clients. He thinks I'm an idiot for my stance. I'm totally open to that being true.

I think there is value to the "burn the boats" mentality and focusing completely on moving forward. 

With that said, I'm hypocrtical in I do plan for bad things in other areas. I buy health and life insurance and in just about every instance when I'm planning something, I have a "what if we have to pivot or change course" plan. I'm not sure why I feel differently about marriage and I acknowledge it's not consistent with other parts of my life. 

Sorry for the rambling answer there. 

 
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"a big disparity in their premarital assets" doesnt really mean much without context. Is your friend a millionaire or does he think having a new truck and a 30K boat compared to her 2010 Honda Civic is a big disparity?

Bottom line for me is, unless you have something that really needs protecting, Im against it. 

*I have no issue having one if it involves a family owned business or something along those lines. 

 
Fortunately, my wife and I were both broke when we met and got married - wasn’t even a consideration.  I’d probably want to hear more details - I’d say a decent percentage of marriages there’s no point in having one but I could see a scenario where it makes sense.  
 

People change and you hear of too many instances where a person goes through a divorce with little fault.  Let’s imagine a scenario where he has a lot of money - maybe in 10 years they have two kids and she’s a junkie and he gets custody.  He would need the money for his kids and to give to them once he passes. That’s just one of many hypotheticals you could think up.  But he should be open and honest about it and why he wants to do it.  

 
Great question. 

Qualifiers here:

1. I'm an idealist.

2. I'm in a small minority and I know that.

3. I'm hypocritical.

With that said, I hate pre nups. I know people say it's prudent and wise and all that. I see it more as planning to fail. From what you wrote above, second thoughts and making sure the pre nup is in place feel like two huge red flags. 

I have a good friend who does financial work with wealthy clients. He thinks I'm an idiot for my stance. I'm totally open to that being true.

I think there is value to the "burn the boats" mentality and focusing completely on moving forward. 

With that said, I'm hypocrtical in I do plan for bad things in other areas. I buy health and life insurance and in just about every instance when I'm planning something, I have a "what if we have to pivot or change course" plan. I'm not sure why I feel differently about marriage and I acknowledge it's not consistent with other parts of my life. 

Sorry for the rambling answer there. 
I agree completely Joe, and am similarly hypocritical wrt insurance. But there is just something that doesn’t sit right about worrying about the consequences of divorce when you’re supposed to be planning (and excited for the prospects of) a happy marriage.

 
"a big disparity in their premarital assets" doesnt really mean much without context. Is your friend a millionaire or does he think having a new truck and a 30K boat compared to her 2010 Honda Civic is a big disparity?

Bottom line for me is, unless you have something that really needs protecting, Im against it. 

*I have no issue having one if it involves a family owned business or something along those lines. 
He actually drives his parents’ early 2000’s Lexus with several hundred thousand miles. But he’s physician early in his career, who is working multiple jobs. She’s a nurse. So he probably earns triple to quadruple her salary.

That’s all I know about their financial disparity.

 
He actually drives his parents’ early 2000’s Lexus with several hundred thousand miles. But he’s physician early in his career, who is working multiple jobs. She’s a nurse. So he probably earns triple to quadruple her salary.

That’s all I know about their financial disparity.
Which probably means that he has significant educational debt, which may exceed his current assets. Not a great candidate for a prenup.

 
A friend is planning to propose to his girlfriend next month. I asked how things were going, to which he replied, “ok, I’m just having some second thoughts about my decision, but I guess that is normal.”

He went on to tell me they had visited a relationship counselor, who seemed more interested in talking about himself than addressing their problems. I suggested they seek another counselor, which he said was already in the works.

He then asked what I thought about prenuptial agreements.

Being married twice, I'd never considered one. And while I’m far from a romantic, the idea kinda seems counterproductive to the prospects of a lifelong commitment IMO. I say this even after being blindsided by my divorce. But ultimately that ended amicably, and we didn’t even need a lawyer.

He replied there was a big disparity in their premarital assets, and he just wanted to protect himself if things didn’t work out. He added he’d spoken to a friend who is going through an ugly divorce, whose wife is trying to “take everything”. He’s the one who suggested the prenup.

Thoughts?
Otis is a romantic, but prenups are terrible. 
 

But even more terrible would be these two getting married. If you are having second thoughts and require multiple counselors BEFORE you even get married, wait until the real world slaps them in the face. So yeah, if he’s going through with this, a doomed to fail marriage is probably the one exception where a prenup makes sense. 

 
With that said, I hate pre nups. I know people say it's prudent and wise and all that. I see it more as planning to fail. From what you wrote above, second thoughts and making sure the pre nup is in place feel like two huge red flags. 

I have a good friend who does financial work with wealthy clients. He thinks I'm an idiot for my stance. I'm totally open to that being true.

I think there is value to the "burn the boats" mentality and focusing completely on moving forward. 
Well said, and agree with all of this. 

The OP's friend should definitely not get married - you're either all-in, or don't do it.

I am usually against prenups for most instances, but will concede they can be useful on some second marriages/older people getting married, where perhaps there are prior children, maybe a successful business, etc. Significant stuff. Like someone else said, a boat and car aren't really enough - in the big scheme of things, that's pocket change. 

 
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2nd thoughts,  relationship counseling, prenups, yeah great idea to get married. 
To be fair, he’s pretty neurotic (many physicians are), so I can excuse second thoughts, to an extent. I didn’t clarify the nature of his cold feet.

And they’re Catholic. I think the church encourages pre-marital counseling for just about everyone considering tying the knot.

 
Also one more good reason to marry someone in your similar financial situation. ;)     My wife and I were both broke when we got married 32 years ago.

Someone was talking about divorce laws the other day and bemoaning how they were favorable to the wife and she got half. I told them, "She built half of all this. If I I ever got divorced, she'd deserve half". 

That may not be the case in all marriages. But it's definitely the case in mine.

 
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I think your buddy need to take a lesson from the Anti-Nike and Just Don't Do it. 

Prenup - does not sound like he needs one now BUT what if 10 years from now he is making bank and she is not - he is going to pay significant Spousal Support. 

If he is that concerned he should seek counsel in his state, but before that he probably should not get married. 

 
With that said, I'm hypocrtical in I do plan for bad things in other areas. I buy health and life insurance and in just about every instance when I'm planning something, I have a "what if we have to pivot or change course" plan. I'm not sure why I feel differently about marriage and I acknowledge it's not consistent with other parts of my life. 

Sorry for the rambling answer there. 
This is an interesting point that I think does hold some weight. The difference I think though, is that life/health/business/car/etc insurance is a hedge against millions of unknown possibilities/factors. It’s kind of a way of saying “I don’t trust the world at large to not harm me.”
 

None of that is personal in any way. A prenup is a financial hedge against one specific person. It’s very much saying “I don’t totally trust YOU to not harm me.” That’s intensely personal.

 
Someone was talking about divorce laws the other day and bemoaning how they were favorable to the wife and she got half. I told them, "She built half of all this. If I I ever got divorced, she'd deserve half". 

That may not be the case in all marriages. But it's definitely the case in mine.
This seems relevant to the situation here. He’s at the beginning of his career, and expects to become a big earner.  If he indeed becomes successful, which is uncertain, she would obviously play a role in that. They are a team, right? It seems to me he doesn’t want to credit her contribution to his anticipated success.  To put it another way, he’s not protecting wealth he’s bringing to the marriage, but trying to protect for himself future wealth he expects to earn during the marriage. That’s kind of a bad look if you ask me. 

 
I only know two people that have had prenups(at least that I know about). 

One of them was an intense issue. Like actual negotiations. Guilt trips, etc.

One was signed with no objection and was basically just something to get done before getting married. 

Guess which couple is still married? 

Ok trick question because they both are. But first guy sure whines about his wife a lot more than second guy. 

 
This is an interesting point that I think does hold some weight. The difference I think though, is that life/health/business/car/etc insurance is a hedge against millions of unknown possibilities/factors. It’s kind of a way of saying “I don’t trust the world at large to not harm me.”
 

None of that is personal in any way. A prenup is a financial hedge against one specific person. It’s very much saying “I don’t totally trust YOU to not harm me.” That’s intensely personal.
Thanks. That's an interesting angle I'd never thought of but fits exactly in how I see it. And maybe makes me feel a little less hypocritical!

 
This seems relevant to the situation here. He’s at the beginning of his career, and expects to become a big earner.  If he indeed becomes successful, which is uncertain, she would obviously play a role in that. They are a team, right? It seems to me he doesn’t want to credit her contribution to his anticipated success.  To put it another way, he’s not protecting wealth he’s bringing to the marriage, but trying to protect for himself future wealth he expects to earn during the marriage. That’s kind of a bad look if you ask me. 
Exactly. My best friend is an MD and that was him. They got married as he entered med school. She worked like crazy and kept the two of them financially afloat during that time. Now he makes most all the money. But he fully acknowledges he wouldn't have today if not for her in the earlier days. I think that's healthy. 

 
... actual negotiations.,,

first guy sure whines about his wife a lot more than second guy. 
He 'negotiated'/forced his wife to sign to make sure he had an escape pod from the marriage.  Pretty awful to hold that much power in a relationship that is 'supposed' to be equal.  

I understand if their is a ridiculous imbalance and divorce rates but if I had such an enormous amount of income/assets then I would draw up a 'generous' pre-nup and consider it a sunk cost and go forward from a 'level' playing field where one-side didn't feel they could 'get out'.

 
He 'negotiated'/forced his wife to sign to make sure he had an escape pod from the marriage.  Pretty awful to hold that much power in a relationship that is 'supposed' to be equal.  

I understand if their is a ridiculous imbalance and divorce rates but if I had such an enormous amount of income/assets then I would draw up a 'generous' pre-nup and consider it a sunk cost and go forward from a 'level' playing field where one-side didn't feel they could 'get out'.
The imbalance in both situations was quite substantial. But the first guy was part of ownership group. 

You think a group of owners wants the ex-wife of one of the other owners involved in the business? That was the biggest issue. She took it personally. The whole thing was kind of insane. To me that is a perfectly understandable prenup situation and she should have accepted that. That was the only thing it was involving. None of the other assets were included.  

That would really suck to get divorced and then have to sell part of a private company (that was established prior to marriage) to pay off the ex. That's not exactly a liquid at all times market like stocks. 

 
The imbalance in both situations was quite substantial. But the first guy was part of ownership group. 

You think a group of owners wants the ex-wife of one of the other owners involved in the business? ...
Then 'negotiate/force' ALL  of the other wives/husbands of the ownership group to sign post-nups to make sure everything was equal among spouses.

 
The imbalance in both situations was quite substantial. But the first guy was part of ownership group. 

You think a group of owners wants the ex-wife of one of the other owners involved in the business? That was the biggest issue. She took it personally. The whole thing was kind of insane. To me that is a perfectly understandable prenup situation and she should have accepted that. That was the only thing it was involving. None of the other assets were included.  
For what its worth, this situation can and should be addressed in the company operating agreement (LLC agreement, shareholder agreement or similar), not in a pre-nup - although I think in some cases it would be appropriate.  However, the circumstances are very similar.  It's hard talking to business owners about failure, just like its hard to tell an engaged couple they should plan for divorce.  I had this discussion a couple weeks ago with a group of young guys starting a business.  The LLC agreement I drafted seems like over half of it addresses break-up, business failure, fraud, death or divorce of a member, etc.  They don't want to think about any of that at the outset of their journey.  However, as with marriage these days, there is a pretty significant chance some of those terms will come into play some day.

I personally think a pre-nup is appropriate when both husband and wife essentially recognize the marriage is a financial arrangement.  In that case, I think both parties are prepared to negotiate terms on that level and it makes sense.

 
A friend is planning to propose to his girlfriend next month. I asked how things were going, to which he replied, “ok, I’m just having some second thoughts about my decision, but I guess that is normal.” 

He went on to tell me they had visited a relationship counselor, who seemed more interested in talking about himself than addressing their problems. I suggested they seek another counselor, which he said was already in the works. 

He then asked what I thought about prenuptial agreements.

Being married twice, I'd never considered one. And while I’m far from a romantic, the idea kinda seems counterproductive to the prospects of a lifelong commitment IMO. I say this even after being blindsided by my divorce. But ultimately that ended amicably, and we didn’t even need a lawyer.

He replied there was a big disparity in their premarital assets, and he just wanted to protect himself if things didn’t work out. He added he’d spoken to a friend who is going through an ugly divorce, whose wife is trying to “take everything”. He’s the one who suggested the prenup.

Thoughts?
Marriage is something that should be the easiest decision you want to make or you should take more time dating. You know if it is right or wrong, and that answer says its wrong. It's good he is looking into more counseling, that can truly help get through some things and after he does some individual work he may want to explore doing more counseling with the SO. Prenups should be for people with VERY VERY large estates or getting remarried in the later stage of life to protect any children/grandchildren. Nothing says love like deciding how you won't give your SO any cash after you break up before you get married.

 
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Exactly. My best friend is an MD and that was him. They got married as he entered med school. She worked like crazy and kept the two of them financially afloat during that time. Now he makes most all the money. But he fully acknowledges he wouldn't have today if not for her in the earlier days. I think that's healthy. 
Similar situation with my wife and I right now as we are starting to have kids. If she did not work for herself and have the flexibility to handle lots of the future kid's duties I would not be able to take my job position and have the outlook it does. She will leave some money on the table over the years in her business but the beneficial opportunity cost she grants the family is huge. 

 
Prenups in some circumstances could be fine, however that is a marriage that sounds doomed for divorce.

 
Heard this stat the other day and had to look it up to make sure it was true and it is.

10 countries with highest divorce rate

Luxembourg 87%
Are ya kidd'n me?

The main reason is a crippling housing shortage and no new building/space to build so couples are forced to rent at exorbitant cost putting them in a sort of slavish existence which would place undo stress on any relationship.

The US is heading down a similar path with housing and disparity of wealth.

We have a problem

The United States of America has the 5th highest divorce rate in the world.   

 
Does anyone know if there are stats on divorce rates among pre nup and non pre nup marriages? Not sure what that would tell us.

 
Does anyone know if there are stats on divorce rates among pre nup and non pre nup marriages? Not sure what that would tell us.
Yeah that’s a situation where I would say correlation definitely doesn’t mean causation.  I’d expect more divorce in marriages with pre-nups for lots of different reasons.

 
I would never marry someone if I thought I needed a prenup with them, but I will never get married again without a prenup.  Marriage is a financial contract.  Might as well get the terms settled before going into it just like any other financial agreement.

 
I got married at 26. Neither one of us had a significant amount of assets. We got a prenup. I think everyone should have a prenup. Just talking through how you want to handle certain situations while you still care a lot about each other seems prudent.

It also forces some really important conversations about how you plan to do some things while married - e.g., have kids, one parent at home or not if so, joint money, etc. 

 
If courts weren't so biased against men maybe this wouldn't be necessary.

I've heard that in places like Mexico and Germany the law of the land is that if you get divorced then legally you leave the marriage with what you came with (basically a universal pre-nup).  I'm assuming everything grown during the marriage is split evenly.  I haven't done the research to confirm that though.

 
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I got married at 26. Neither one of us had a significant amount of assets. We got a prenup. I think everyone should have a prenup. Just talking through how you want to handle certain situations while you still care a lot about each other seems prudent.

It also forces some really important conversations about how you plan to do some things while married - e.g., have kids, one parent at home or not if so, joint money, etc. 
Examples we had were clauses for how we'd like to handle unknowns, the biggest being a stay at home parent, and how we would handle a divorce in the event of its occurrence within 5 years of the marriage. We were in love (and three years in we are in love) but I had just completed 4 years of grad school and she had saved enough to pay for her own all the way and intended to go to an MBA. Knowing all those changes and knowing that plenty of in-love people hit a snag and lose their #### or change, we basically included something that said we'd each keep any school debt and designated a couple of her accounts as hers in the event of divorce before 5 years and as the sole accounts from which we would pay her grad school expenses.

I think it was pretty smart, personally. She's now finishing school, those accounts are at zero, and we've never had to discuss if it was fair to one or the other to use money x for use y or what have you. We decided with clear heads and I think have benefitted from it. 

 
Strange that people still equate counseling with a need to run away from the relationship. Backwards, imo. 

I brought up the idea of a pre-nup with the wife after we got engaged. Didn't mean anything to me, we were both on equal footing financially with not enough earnings or assets to make a difference. I just wanted to initiate conversation about it because we hadn't discussed it before. Did NOT go over well :lol: , but at least it was discussed.

If a couple can't handle discussion of a prenup or going to couples counseling, those are bigger red flags to me than a dude having general doubts about getting married.

And I agree with most here about the prenup...unless you're coming into the marriage with significant assets, there's not a lot to discuss. But at the same time divorce rates are high, so I like the poster above's healthy interaction with their SO about getting one.

 
I also wrote our prenup (I had already been admitted to the bar by this time) with her alongside me discussing all the things we think mattered, then helped her find independent counsel, not only because that is required but also because:

A) I was (and still am) a novice at much of the law and we needed someone to make sure things were enforceable and fair (particularly a convoluted section we devised around limiting alimony and enhancing support based on whether one spouse or the other had stayed home with children)

B) she was obviously at a disadvantage and should be able to share her concerns with her own counsel, someone who would then go vigorously advocate for her

 
Current wife and I have one.  It’s a second marriage for both of us so we both went through the misery of a divorce proceeding.  
 

I was married 5 years and she was married 10.  We were both good friends for almost ten years before we dated and then got married.  
 

We both have professional jobs and a chunk of assets to our names so we talked about how we wanted to handle that.  Decision was to get a prenup to identify what our premarital assets were - so what she had before marriage is hers and what I had is mine.  When we got married we both put in 50% towards the house.  We both had no huge credit card or student loan debt. 

So our prenup basically entails what assets we would keep as premarital and then the rest of what we acquired post marriage would be up for grabs.  As I said she has a professional job and makes good money.  So do I (albeit I do make more).

Everyone is different but that’s how we did it.  Been married over 6 years with her - so I’ve already outlasted my prior marriage 🙂- and we are both happily married.

In regards to the OP I would be telling your friend don’t get married right now.  If they want to do counseling great but he shouldn’t rush into marriage with that girlfriend.  If he decides to get married and feels a prenup is necessary he should get one.  The girl you describe has a lot of red flags and as a divorced guy I ignored red flags when I got married the first time and wish I hadn’t. 

 
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Examples we had were clauses for how we'd like to handle unknowns, the biggest being a stay at home parent, and how we would handle a divorce in the event of its occurrence within 5 years of the marriage. We were in love (and three years in we are in love) but I had just completed 4 years of grad school and she had saved enough to pay for her own all the way and intended to go to an MBA. Knowing all those changes and knowing that plenty of in-love people hit a snag and lose their #### or change, we basically included something that said we'd each keep any school debt and designated a couple of her accounts as hers in the event of divorce before 5 years and as the sole accounts from which we would pay her grad school expenses.

I think it was pretty smart, personally. She's now finishing school, those accounts are at zero, and we've never had to discuss if it was fair to one or the other to use money x for use y or what have you. We decided with clear heads and I think have benefitted from it. 
Purely from a financial perspective, I don't think anyone can argue a prenup isn’t “smart”. But what would have prevented you from discussing those issues and creating those accounts without a prenup?

ETA NM, I see you approached marriage much more cautiously than most. As a remarried divorcee, I obviously have no room to judge, but you’ve reminded me why I only dated a lawyer once.

 
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Purely from a financial perspective, I don't think anyone can argue a prenup isn’t “smart”. But what would have prevented you from discussing those issues and creating those accounts without a prenup?
I don't think anything would have necessarily prevented it. But having a plan we had both agreed to ahead of time made it the default assumption when those things actually came up. The financial issue was actually pretty insignificant. We're talking about like $300k total difference for two people who make more than half of that in just W2 income each year.

We're big planners. We also both recognize that thinking about things with unclouded minds tend to lead to better outcomes than discussing them when somebody suddenly feels a typical human behavioral or emotional response (e.g., loss aversion). It's entirely possible that one or two years into marriage, I may have felt like "hey we're married, that's our money and we've been sharing everything for two years now, maybe it shouldn't be separate." But since we had a contractual default, that never became an issue. 

Do I think it's likely it would have? No. Do I know that it definitely didn't? Yes. Do I think the act of an agreement in place is part of why that's true? Yes. 

Let me talk through the SAHP thing. My wife is brilliant, and a hard worker. She has a top tier MBA now, and she likes her career. She find fulfillment in it. However, given that I started 3 years before her (we're in the same industry), I'll make double her salary until I leave or until she also makes partner and the gap closes somewhat. All the research we've done says one major reason why women default to SAHP roles is because men make more money and the best financial choice for the family is therefore man work woman home. If she gets put into SAHP because of that, then 10+ years later she could have had this massive earning power that's been short circuited (same for me). 

I find less fulfillment from work. I really enjoy teaching and I love basketball (my prior career). If I become the SAHP because I can coach at a local school or university, I never want to look back if something disastrous were to happen and think "Damn, if I'd kept working, I'd have $x instead and could retire and have more freedom." Because if we have kids and I become the SAHP, it's likely that 5 years of me working would have accumulated enough that I think I could retire forever. Those five years of income would be my peak earning years. 

We also both despise freeloaders, and people who take advantage of others. And we both want kids, and value a SAHP. So now there's a conundrum, and we wanted to logically think through and lock ourselves into a default mode on this so that when the time came, emotion (e.g., prospects of losing that chance to work or whatever) wouldn't lay into it and either one of us could feel safe becoming a SAHP (and if neither of us wanted to, we wouldn't have to, so it would become moot). 

So we put in a clause with a formula for how at every year of SAHP through a certain number (can't recall if it was like 5 or 10), and something about whether those years including the preceding x before an event of divorce, either of us who had elected to become a SAHP would be entitled to enhanced payments, above and beyond alimony/child support, to help them pivot with additional education or training, or to sustain a headhunting search, etc etc to get back on their professional feet. We also included a limit on those number of years, opting to eliminate any additional payments which we were allowed to opt out of under the law so the other person couldn't be vindictive or freeload.

There's more detail in there, but the bottom line is - we designed something so that either one of us would feel comfortable letting go of some pretty big concerns ambitious people tend to have so that we would each be free to prioritize the thing we care about most - family - without anything nagging in the back of the mind, and without any chance for resentment to form that would (in our research) be one of the leading causes of divorce!

In sum: I think our prenup not only protected us in the event of some unforeseen rift, but more importantly materially decreased the opportunity for some of the most common marital problems to actually form, thereby dramatically lowering the chances that we would develop a rift leading to a divorce. Does that mean we never have a fight or disagree? No. but it means that we've already addressed some of the scariest things about committing your life beyond just yourself and to another person instead, which I believe has allowed us to more wholly undertake that commitment. 

 
Ive drafted many pre-nups in the past 20+ yrs - many of my clients are on their second marriages and have kids/family or are older/more established career wise that they want to make sure issues are taken care of and they dont lose a lot of acquired assets in a potential divorce...there are also issues like businesses, real estate and support that are a good idea to address early.  The stats dont lie - so many marriages end in divorce for reasons not even contemplated at the start....I view it as life insurance....hopefully you dont need it but you sleep easier knowing its dealt with....

 
IME premarital counseling is a terrific idea. Promotes self-awareness & personal growth, gets you to think about important issues ahead of time (who handles the money, what goals you have, how you’ll spend holidays, et al), establishes better understanding of communication styles, gives you tools to help resolve conflict. I’m 58/divorced 20 years and my gf & I already are planning on doing it after we get engaged.

IDK people think going to a counselor is a red flag.

re: prenup - every situation is unique and it’s def a hard conversation for some. We don’t intend on getting one but we are both poor.

 
IME premarital counseling is a terrific idea. 

IDK people think going to a counselor is a red flag.
It’s because of the description of why the couple went:

A friend is planning to propose to his girlfriend next month. I asked how things were going, to which he replied, “ok, I’m just having some second thoughts about my decision, but I guess that is normal.”

He went on to tell me they had visited a relationship counselor, who seemed more interested in talking about himself than addressing their problems. I suggested they seek another counselor, which he said was already in the works.

 
For what it’s worth pre nups wouldn’t be as emotionally toxic if this country took my advice and started having expiration dates on marriage licenses.
Can you Renew them like a drivers license?
Yes, if both parties want to renew they are welcome to.  That’s how we have to pitch this idea to women voters, as a chance to have another wedding.

 
Comment on the pre marital counseling. I strongly encourage this for all couples. I have a friend that does a lot of weddings and he makes it a requirement that if he's officiating, the couple do several sessions of pre marital counseling. I fully agree. I think it's super healthy and would never want to denigrate counseling of any type. 

That is not a red flag at all. 

If your friend is stressing to the point he thinks he needs specific counseling or they are trying to overcome an issue before marriage, that might be more of a thing. 

Marriage rarely gets easier after the honeymoon phase. It takes a good bit of intentionality. 

 
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