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Please don’t call undocumented people “illegal immigrants” (1 Viewer)

timschochet said:
Actually your post goes to the original point of my thread. I hold that staying in this country without papers is not a serious crime. It IS, however, a crime. But as you correctly point out, most of us break some sort of law several times a year. You may not hire undocumented people (that you’re aware of,) but you probably drive over the speed limit and do hundreds of things that are technically against some law or too. Should I therefore refer to you, and myself, and everyone reading this as “illegal”? 
Now I’m sure someone will respond that the term specifically refers to immigration. But I would counter, ask a Native American. He or she might respond, with great legitimacy, that we are ALL illegal immigrants. 
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Just to be clear in communication DW did not author that post. I did.  I am his brother.  I sometimes read him this site to work on his memory recovery.  I paraphrased his comment and posted it here using his account. He would be angry if he knew.  Also probably a terms of use violation for all I know.

So any rate, yes I have broken every law of Gods and men, frequently and zestfully at times.  My brother, well admissions against interests are not something I would make on his behalf in a public forum.  I will bow out now.

 
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Ditkaless Wonders said:
Just to be clear in communication DW did not author that post. I did.  I am his brother.  I sometimes read him this site to work on his memory recovery.  I paraphrased his comment and posted it here using his account. He would be angry if he knew.  Also probably a terms of use violation for all I know.

So any rate, yes I have broken every law of Gods and men, frequently and zestfully at times.  My brother, well admissions against interests are not something I would make on his behalf in a public forum.  I will bow out now.
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No problem. Please tell your brother I miss him and his posts and invite him to come back to the forum. Thank you. 
 

ETA and I had no idea he was ill. Very sorry to hear. 

 
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timschochet said:
I’m still confused about something: about twice a year I drive up to a Home Depot, approach some day laborers and say “I’ve got a shopping center a mile from here. Somebody dumped an old couch in the alley. I want you to follow me in your truck and remove the couch.” Guy says “$100.” I say OK; or I might say “that’s too much; I’ll give you $75.” 
 

What exactly is immoral or unethical about this transaction? Some people here seem to think it makes me a bad person, or a hypocrite, or both. I’m not seeing that; what am I’m missing? 
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Im good with it.    But it doesnt help fund the govt.   

Which im good with as well.

 
I'd like to cancel white, black, redneck, hillbilly etc .... but they're all semi-valid in that people ARE white skinned, they ARE black skinned, people do have red necks and hillbilly? yes, we are that too

and people here illegally are illegal and if they're trying to immigrate?

they're illegal immigrants IMO

 
So, we shouldn’t use the term Illegal Immigrants for people that enter the country illegally.   It is ok, however, to take advantage of their desperation to eat and take care of their families by hiring them for as little money as possible and without paying into health insurance, work comp, or unemployment.   

At least we now know why Tim feels bad for the illegals.  He is using them and profiting nicely. To make yourself feel better Tim, you should take a bunch of illegals into your home.  

 
sho nuff said:
They would still be ineligible to vote...just like now.
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You think that stops them?  The penalty for illegal voting, just like the penalty for being an illegal alien, is a slap on the wrist.  And we know that illegals do vote, just a question of how many.

 
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Ramblin Wreck said:
Negotiating with poor minorities who just want to feed their families to do work you're not capable of doing yourself.  Way to lookout for those folks.  But do not call them ILLEGAL
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Seriously. If it wasn’t so sad, it would be comical. 

 
DocHolliday said:
So, we shouldn’t use the term Illegal Immigrants for people that enter the country illegally.   It is ok, however, to take advantage of their desperation to eat and take care of their families by hiring them for as little money as possible and without paying into health insurance, work comp, or unemployment.   

At least we now know why Tim feels bad for the illegals.  He is using them and profiting nicely. To make yourself feel better Tim, you should take a bunch of illegals into your home.  
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REAL American citizens are willing to do the work if you paid them accordingly. 

 
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My mom was born in 1930.  The hispanic population in the US was 1 million.  She is about to turn 91 and the Hispanic population in the US is now 61 million, and that’s being conservative.  I’m not against immigration, but my goodness that is a massive demographic shift in one person’s lifetime.  

 
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ekbeats said:
You think that stops them?  The penalty for illegal voting, just like the penalty for being an illegal alien, is a slap on the wrist.  And we know that illegals do vote, just a question of how many.
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We know it’s statistically insignificant or there would be some sort of finding about it by now.  We know tue right has made baseless claims about it in the past.

 
sho nuff said:
We know it’s statistically insignificant or there would be some sort of finding about it by now.  We know tue right has made baseless claims about it in the past.
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No, that’s not true.  There have been studies done on this.  The number of illegals who vote has been found to be 10-15%.  I would link them but, well, we know how that story ends with you.  So I’ll let you go foraging for yourself. Who knows, maybe you’ll learn something new along the way.

 
timschochet said:
When I was a kid most people used the phrase “mentally ######” to describe mental challenged individuals. Most people had no bad intentions by using the term. Still, we don’t use it anymore. I’d like to reach a point when we don’t use “illegal” as a noun. But I’m not condemning anyone who does it now because we’re not at that point or close to it. 
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I thought the r word became bad form because it became a negative thing to say about things people didnt like. 

Which then was implying that people with disabilities were bad. 

 
Ditkaless Wonders said:
Just to be clear in communication DW did not author that post. I did.  I am his brother.  I sometimes read him this site to work on his memory recovery.  I paraphrased his comment and posted it here using his account. He would be angry if he knew.  Also probably a terms of use violation for all I know.

So any rate, yes I have broken every law of Gods and men, frequently and zestfully at times.  My brother, well admissions against interests are not something I would make on his behalf in a public forum.  I will bow out now.
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I have no interest in Tim’s forum Harakiri but your brother is a wonderful man and we miss him greatly.  Please pass along well wishes from the community and know that your family is in our thoughts and prayers.

 
ekbeats said:
My mom was born in 1930.  The hispanic population in the US was 1 million.  She is about to turn 91 and the Hispanic population in the US is now 61 million, and that’s being conservative.  I’m not against immigration, but my goodness that is a massive demographic shift in one person’s lifetime.  
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Is this a cause of concern for you? 

 
ekbeats said:
No, that’s not true.  There have been studies done on this.  The number of illegals who vote has been found to be 10-15%.  I would link them but, well, we know how that story ends with you.  So I’ll let you go foraging for yourself. Who knows, maybe you’ll learn something new along the way.
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Ive foraged...nothing credible claiming what you are saying...every fraud stufy has come up with the same findings...statistically insignificant.  Or Trumps own fraud commission that dissolved without reporting  because they found nothing.

 
timschochet said:
This thread has gone pretty much exactly as planned. 
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To be fair, Tim, it's hard to take you seriously when you do this and then turn around and hire them for cheap labor so you don't have to pay real American citizens a livable wage.

You do you, but in my opinion if you don't walk the walk then you shouldn't be talking the talk.  This comes off as shallow, self-serving, virtue signalling and we all see right through it.

 
Just make sure you pay them at least minimum wage, Tim. There may be legal technicalities with the rest of it, but it’s not morally repugnant or anything.

 
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bigbottom said:
Just make sure you pay them at least minimum wage, Tim. There may be legal technicalities with the rest of it, but it’s not morally repugnant or anything.
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I’ve been thinking more about this- as I wrote I’ve never even considered it. But in truth I usually pay way over. 
 

Minimum wage in California is $13 an hour. I never hire more than two guys, the work is never more than 30 minutes, and I never pay less than $100 (even when I negotiate the original price down, I always end up tipping them so it comes to $100 even.) 

Which means that, even if you’re rounding it up to an hour’s work, I’m paying them $50 an hour. 

 
BladeRunner said:
To be fair, Tim, it's hard to take you seriously when you do this and then turn around and hire them for cheap labor so you don't have to pay real American citizens a livable wage.
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Hey Blade if you want to stand outside the Home Depot I’ll hire you instead. I don’t care who I hire so long as the work gets done. 

 
timschochet said:
I’ve been thinking more about this- as I wrote I’ve never even considered it. But in truth I usually pay way over. 
 

Minimum wage in California is $13 an hour. I never hire more than two guys, the work is never more than 30 minutes, and I never pay less than $100 (even when I negotiate the original price down, I always end up tipping them so it comes to $100 even.) 

Which means that, even if you’re rounding it up to an hour’s work, I’m paying them $50 an hour. 
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:lmao:  Nice story change since this morning.

 
timschochet said:
I’ve been thinking more about this- as I wrote I’ve never even considered it. But in truth I usually pay way over. 
 

Minimum wage in California is $13 an hour. I never hire more than two guys, the work is never more than 30 minutes, and I never pay less than $100 (even when I negotiate the original price down, I always end up tipping them so it comes to $100 even.) 

Which means that, even if you’re rounding it up to an hour’s work, I’m paying them $50 an hour. 
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👍

 
Opiod addiction is now a no no. It is called "Opiod disorder" now. In the end both are the same.

 
timschochet said:
Someone who comes here illegally has committed a crime (albeit a minor one.) That doesn’t make them an illegal person.
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The part that you fail to acknowledge or seem to gloss over is, it isn’t a one and done crime. They are committing crime the entire duration of their stay here.

your argument of dehumanizing them makes no sense. We give groups of people names in nearly every capacity. It doesn’t dehumanize them. It puts them into a group. 

 
Cjw_55106 said:
The part that you fail to acknowledge or seem to gloss over is, it isn’t a one and done crime. They are committing crime the entire duration of their stay here.

your argument of dehumanizing them makes no sense. We give groups of people names in nearly every capacity. It doesn’t dehumanize them. It puts them into a group. 
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If you’ve read this thread then you’ve read @McBokonon’s post. He works with undocumented immigrants and he says that they feel dehumanized because they are called “illegals”. Why do you doubt this? 

 
Cjw_55106 said:
They are committing crime the entire duration of their stay here.
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And this is simply not true: in fact, it’s the opposite of true. Every study that has been done on this subject strongly suggests that the vast majority of undocumented immigrants are in fact more law abiding than your average citizen. 

 
timschochet said:
And this is simply not true: in fact, it’s the opposite of true. Every study that has been done on this subject strongly suggests that the vast majority of undocumented immigrants are in fact more law abiding than your average citizen. 
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Who is talking about additional crimes? The fact that they are here means they are committing a crime. It doesn’t matter how you try to bend it or sugarcoat it or how much of a benefit you think they are to society. Their entire existence here is illegal.

 
timschochet said:
And this is simply not true: in fact, it’s the opposite of true. Every study that has been done on this subject strongly suggests that the vast majority of undocumented immigrants are in fact more law abiding than your average citizen. 
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Being here illegally is a crime so the entire time they are here is a crime.

 
timschochet said:
If you’ve read this thread then you’ve read @McBokonon’s post. He works with undocumented immigrants and he says that they feel dehumanized because they are called “illegals”. Why do you doubt this? 
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Who cares how they feel. They are here illegally and as such are illegal aliens. 

What if drug dealers started to be offended you called them drug dealers?  Would you be just as sympathetic? 

This whole argument is absurd. If they don't want to be called a illegal aliens then they need to get into this country legally and stop skipping the people that are waiting in line.  Has anyone thought of those people? The legitimate ones doing it right and waiting to get in?

 
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BladeRunner said:
Who cares how they feel. They are here illegally and as such are illegal aliens. 

What if drug dealers started to be offended you called them drug dealers?  Would you be just as sympathetic? 

This whole argument is absurd. If they don't want to be called a illegal aliens then they need to get into this country legally and stop skipping the people that are waiting in line.  Has anyone thought of those people? The legitimate ones doing it right and waiting to get in?
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Drug dealers. You’re not doing yourself any favors with this. 

 
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