Jump to content
Fantasy Football - Footballguys Forums

Please don’t call undocumented people “illegal immigrants”


Recommended Posts

Sometimes, in fact quite often,  political correctness, or “cancel culture”, can be a very good thing. I would like to cancel the term “illegal immigrants”. Here is my argument: 

In a free society, a person cannot be illegal; only an act is illegal. It’s true that we sometimes refer to a person who has committed a serious crime as a felon (meaning one who has committed a felony.) But the act of not having proper papers, or crossing the border illegally, or staying here beyond one’s visa: NONE of these acts are felonies. They are all misdemeanors. 
By referring to an undocumented person as an “illegal” we are dehumanizing them, making them non-persons in our society. I do not believe this is deliberate for most people who use this term; they do so without really considering the effects of what they’re saying . Which is why I do not, at the present time, condemn anyone for using the term “illegal”. But I would like to reach a time when everyone recognizes that it’s offensive, and then we CAN condemn those who use it. 

Edited by timschochet
  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Replies 352
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Posts

This is word games. If you come here without documentation, you have entered here illegally.  You are thereby an illegal immigrant. By saying “don’t say it,” you’re trying to pretend it’s so

It must be great going about life just saying stuff without actually knowing what it is you’re going on about.  Jesus Harold Christ.   

illegal immigrants

I mean this sincerely as generally I don't like to be a bad person, but why is saying someone is here illegally bad, if they are.  I'm not sure why you're distinguishing between misdemeanors or felonies.

I wouldn't greet someone and say "hi illegal immigrant", but when referring to people here illegally it seems appropriate.

I can understand why you think this because of your view that illegal immigration is acceptable.  But I personally don't think it is.

If we say undocumented person, how does one know you're not referring to the lack of a vaccine passport or other such documentation.

  • Like 2
  • Love 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
25 minutes ago, djmich said:

I mean this sincerely as generally I don't like to be a bad person, but why is saying someone is here illegally bad, if they are.  I'm not sure why you're distinguishing between misdemeanors or felonies.

I wouldn't greet someone and say "hi illegal immigrant", but when referring to people here illegally it seems appropriate.

I can understand why you think this because of your view that illegal immigration is acceptable.  But I personally don't think it is.

If we say undocumented person, how does one know you're not referring to the lack of a vaccine passport or other such documentation.

The guy that is insulted that they are called illegal aliens appears to be the same guy who uses them for cheap labor because he doesn't want to pay REAL American citizens a decent wage.  

Or do I have him confused with someone else?

Edited by BladeRunner
  • Like 2
  • Thanks 1
  • Love 2
  • Laughing 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, BladeRunner said:

The guy that is insulted that they are called illegal aliens appears to be the same guy who uses them for cheap labor because he doesn't want to pay REAL American citizens a decent wage.  

Or do I have him confused with someone else?

Not only real American citizens but struggling minority American citizens 

  • Love 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, BladeRunner said:

The guy that is insulted that they are called illegal aliens appears to be the same guy who uses them for cheap labor because he doesn't want to pay REAL American citizens a decent wage.  

Or do I have him confused with someone else?

You don’t. 
But I don’t use them in order to pay low wages. I use them (I think; I never ask) because they’re willing to do the work. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
35 minutes ago, djmich said:

I mean this sincerely as generally I don't like to be a bad person, but why is saying someone is here illegally bad, if they are.  I'm not sure why you're distinguishing between misdemeanors or felonies.

I wouldn't greet someone and say "hi illegal immigrant", but when referring to people here illegally it seems appropriate.

I can understand why you think this because of your view that illegal immigration is acceptable.  But I personally don't think it is.

If we say undocumented person, how does one know you're not referring to the lack of a vaccine passport or other such documentation.

As I wrote; illegal is an act, when you designate a PERSON as illegal you’re dehumanizing them. 
 

And by the way, I don’t believe that coming here illegally is acceptable behavior. It ought to be punished. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

I can buy the argument that we shouldnt call them illegal aliens. 

But there is no other argument. They are illegal immigrants, and there is zero wrong with saying so. This is like the move away from secretary. Just more wokus pocus nonsense because some yahoos in California are bored.

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
18 minutes ago, parasaurolophus said:

I can buy the argument that we shouldnt call them illegal aliens. 

But there is no other argument. They are illegal immigrants, and there is zero wrong with saying so. This is like the move away from secretary. Just more wokus pocus nonsense because some yahoos in California are bored.

I don’t agree with you at all, but I love the phrase “wokus pocus”. That’s very good. Did you come up with that? 

Edited by timschochet
Link to post
Share on other sites
23 minutes ago, timschochet said:

As I wrote; illegal is an act, when you designate a PERSON as illegal you’re dehumanizing them. 
 

And by the way, I don’t believe that coming here illegally is acceptable behavior. It ought to be punished. 

I still see them as human.  

Link to post
Share on other sites
28 minutes ago, timschochet said:

As I wrote; illegal is an act, when you designate a PERSON as illegal you’re dehumanizing them. 
 

And by the way, I don’t believe that coming here illegally is acceptable behavior. It ought to be punished. 

And yet you have no problem being dismissive of people you disagree using terms such as deniers, which us also dehumanizing. 

  • Like 1
  • Love 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, jon_mx said:

And yet you have no problem being dismissive of people you disagree using terms such as deniers, which us also dehumanizing. 

Really? That’s your best analogy. It’s not very good. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, timschochet said:

Really? That’s your best analogy. It’s not very good. 

Oh there is lots more.  Your use of white previledge is also dismissive and dehumanizing.  The whole media complex you defend is dismissive and dehumanizes whites.  Your ignorant beliefs that the only reason people hate the mainstream media is propaganda from right-wing media is 100 percent out of whack with reality.  People on the right hate the MSM, because the MSM hates them.  It is that simple. 

  • Love 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
32 minutes ago, jon_mx said:

And yet you have no problem being dismissive of people you disagree using terms such as deniers, which us also dehumanizing. 

Whether or not Tim is a hypocrite (I don’t necessarily think so, but let’s assume he is), it’s not really relevant to whether he is correct with respect to this particular point. So is this an attempt to undermine his credibility rather than address the premise, or is it just an opportunity to take a swipe at him?

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, bigbottom said:

Whether or not Tim is a hypocrite (I don’t necessarily think so, but let’s assume he is), it’s not really relevant to whether he is correct with respect to this particular point. So is this an attempt to undermine his credibility rather than address the premise, or is it just an opportunity to take a swipe at him?

It is an attempt to get through to him how dehumanizing his rhetoric is.  It is not just him though, it's the entire woke movement.  They expect white conservatives to be hyper-sensitive to every minority group while treat white conservatives like sub-human trash.  And then when you point out how rude they are, they just mock the idea that white people can be hurt since they are the people in power. 

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, timschochet said:

As I wrote; illegal is an act, when you designate a PERSON as illegal you’re dehumanizing them. 
 

And by the way, I don’t believe that coming here illegally is acceptable behavior. It ought to be punished. 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
20 minutes ago, bigbottom said:

Whether or not Tim is a hypocrite (I don’t necessarily think so, but let’s assume he is), it’s not really relevant to whether he is correct with respect to this particular point. So is this an attempt to undermine his credibility rather than address the premise, or is it just an opportunity to take a swipe at him?

Gee thanks lol 

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, timschochet said:

You don’t. 
But I don’t use them in order to pay low wages. I use them (I think; I never ask) because they’re willing to do the work. 

So you pay them minimum wage?

Or union wages?

Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, identikit said:

So you pay them minimum wage?

Or union wages?

I pay for the job. Legally I’m allowed to pay up to $600 for any service without either a wage or 1099 (independent contractor.) If the work exceeds $600 (pretty rare) then I do a 1099. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, timschochet said:

I pay for the job. Legally I’m allowed to pay up to $600 for any service without either a wage or 1099 (independent contractor.) If the work exceeds $600 (pretty rare) then I do a 1099. 

I didn't ask if you were within the bounds of the law.

You're a smart guy; I'll bet you can figure out what the true hourly wage is that you pay.

Edited by identikit
Link to post
Share on other sites
22 minutes ago, tonydead said:

Illegal as the day is long. 

#stayinmexico

#sendemback

 

But if they stay in Mexico, however will your friends continue to rip off the government for the useless bits of wall they built? 

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, identikit said:

I didn't ask if you were within the bounds of the law.

You're a smart guy; I'll bet you can figure out what the true hourly wage you pay.

Depends on the job. Sometimes it probably works out to under minimum wage; sometimes over. The whole point of independent contractor work is that you don’t worry about it. I pay for convenience and availability. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, timschochet said:

Depends on the job. Sometimes it probably works out to under minimum wage; sometimes over. The whole point of independent contractor work is that you don’t worry about it. I pay for convenience and availability. 

So far from union wages.

 

Ok...

 

 

  • Thanks 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

Some of the posts here about unions and wages crack me up. The guys I hire occasionally that hang around the Home Depot parking lot have a far greater intuitive understanding of capitalism than do many of the so-called “conservatives” in this forum and elsewhere. 

Edited by timschochet
  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, timschochet said:

Sometimes, in fact quite often,  political correctness, or “cancel culture”, can be a very good thing. I would like to cancel the term “illegal immigrants”. Here is my argument: 

In a free society, a person cannot be illegal; only an act is illegal. It’s true that we sometimes refer to a person who has committed a serious crime as a felon (meaning one who has committed a felony.) But the act of not having proper papers, or crossing the border illegally, or staying here beyond one’s visa: NONE of these acts are felonies. They are all misdemeanors. 
By referring to an undocumented person as an “illegal” we are dehumanizing them, making them non-persons in our society. I do not believe this is deliberate for most people who use this term; they do so without really considering the effects of what they’re saying . Which is why I do not, at the present time, condemn anyone for using the term “illegal”. But I would like to reach a time when everyone recognizes that it’s offensive, and then we CAN condemn those who use it. 

I am fully aware of what I mean when I say it.  Can you just cross into Canada because you want to and work?  NO.  That would make you illegal.  Calling someone undocumented is the way to justify them being here.  I fully understand that the labor market is as bad as I've ever seen it, that doesn't justify undocumented - they should all be documented.  Many of these people are exploited by owners who do not pay them fair wages or benefits.  They also discard them if there is a work safety issue, their word against the worker's word.  I wish the states would fine heavily these places that use them.  

If they want to go from illegal to legal, the Biden administration should be placing measures to make sure this happens, then they get the full benefits of citizenship.  

Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, timschochet said:

Some of the posts here about unions and wages crack me up. The guys I hire occasionally that hang around the Home Depot parking lot have a far greater intuitive understanding of capitalism than do many of the so-called “conservatives” in this forum and elsewhere. 

What happens when you hire a couple for a job and they mess it up?   These guys are not insured.  

Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, bigbottom said:

Whether or not Tim is a hypocrite (I don’t necessarily think so, but let’s assume he is), it’s not really relevant to whether he is correct with respect to this particular point. So is this an attempt to undermine his credibility rather than address the premise, or is it just an opportunity to take a swipe at him?

It's because nobody likes a scold, and this whole thread is that of a scold and a pedant who is being exacting. 

Edited by woodstock
  • Like 2
  • Thanks 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, timschochet said:

But if they stay in Mexico, however will your friends continue to rip off the government for the useless bits of wall they built? 

Would everyone be happy if they stayed in Mexico and crossed over, only on election day, in order to cast their vote for the Democrat?
Maybe accept mail in voting from bordering countries?

....or would they do that without being granted everything that the Democrats offer?

Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, timschochet said:

Gee thanks lol 

:shrug:  I haven’t read all your posts (who has the time?!?) to reach a definitive conclusion on the criticism, but my general sense is that it is unwarranted. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, timschochet said:

Depends on the job. Sometimes it probably works out to under minimum wage; sometimes over. The whole point of independent contractor work is that you don’t worry about it. I pay for convenience and availability. 

The whole point is you don’t worry about it?You don’t worry about paying workers less than minimum wage for manual labor?  I find this statement repugnant if I’m being honest. Also, I’m not certain your practices are 100% legal under California and federal law.

But that’s irrelevant to the topic of the the thread. I agree with you that we should try to use different terminology. 

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Opie said:

Would everyone be happy if they stayed in Mexico and crossed over, only on election day, in order to cast their vote for the Democrat?
Maybe accept mail in voting from bordering countries?

....or would they do that without being granted everything that the Democrats offer?

They would still be ineligible to vote...just like now.

Link to post
Share on other sites
30 minutes ago, sho nuff said:

They would still be ineligible to vote...just like now.

They would still be ineligible, but they'd still vote...just like now. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
31 minutes ago, AAABatteries said:

I’ve always assumed it was shorthand for “immigrants who entered the country illegally”.  

It is.  

I don't have a problem with illegal immigrants, and I'm happy to defend that position without trying to define the other side out of existence, which is what this thread is really about.

  • Like 2
  • Thanks 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Restore formatting

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.


×
×
  • Create New...