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Please don’t call undocumented people “illegal immigrants” (2 Viewers)

timschochet

Footballguy
Sometimes, in fact quite often,  political correctness, or “cancel culture”, can be a very good thing. I would like to cancel the term “illegal immigrants”. Here is my argument: 

In a free society, a person cannot be illegal; only an act is illegal. It’s true that we sometimes refer to a person who has committed a serious crime as a felon (meaning one who has committed a felony.) But the act of not having proper papers, or crossing the border illegally, or staying here beyond one’s visa: NONE of these acts are felonies. They are all misdemeanors. 
By referring to an undocumented person as an “illegal” we are dehumanizing them, making them non-persons in our society. I do not believe this is deliberate for most people who use this term; they do so without really considering the effects of what they’re saying . Which is why I do not, at the present time, condemn anyone for using the term “illegal”. But I would like to reach a time when everyone recognizes that it’s offensive, and then we CAN condemn those who use it. 

 
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I mean this sincerely as generally I don't like to be a bad person, but why is saying someone is here illegally bad, if they are.  I'm not sure why you're distinguishing between misdemeanors or felonies.

I wouldn't greet someone and say "hi illegal immigrant", but when referring to people here illegally it seems appropriate.

I can understand why you think this because of your view that illegal immigration is acceptable.  But I personally don't think it is.

If we say undocumented person, how does one know you're not referring to the lack of a vaccine passport or other such documentation.

 
I mean this sincerely as generally I don't like to be a bad person, but why is saying someone is here illegally bad, if they are.  I'm not sure why you're distinguishing between misdemeanors or felonies.

I wouldn't greet someone and say "hi illegal immigrant", but when referring to people here illegally it seems appropriate.

I can understand why you think this because of your view that illegal immigration is acceptable.  But I personally don't think it is.

If we say undocumented person, how does one know you're not referring to the lack of a vaccine passport or other such documentation.
The guy that is insulted that they are called illegal aliens appears to be the same guy who uses them for cheap labor because he doesn't want to pay REAL American citizens a decent wage.  

Or do I have him confused with someone else?

 
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The guy that is insulted that they are called illegal aliens appears to be the same guy who uses them for cheap labor because he doesn't want to pay REAL American citizens a decent wage.  

Or do I have him confused with someone else?
Not only real American citizens but struggling minority American citizens 

 
The guy that is insulted that they are called illegal aliens appears to be the same guy who uses them for cheap labor because he doesn't want to pay REAL American citizens a decent wage.  

Or do I have him confused with someone else?
You don’t. 
But I don’t use them in order to pay low wages. I use them (I think; I never ask) because they’re willing to do the work. 

 
I mean this sincerely as generally I don't like to be a bad person, but why is saying someone is here illegally bad, if they are.  I'm not sure why you're distinguishing between misdemeanors or felonies.

I wouldn't greet someone and say "hi illegal immigrant", but when referring to people here illegally it seems appropriate.

I can understand why you think this because of your view that illegal immigration is acceptable.  But I personally don't think it is.

If we say undocumented person, how does one know you're not referring to the lack of a vaccine passport or other such documentation.
As I wrote; illegal is an act, when you designate a PERSON as illegal you’re dehumanizing them. 
 

And by the way, I don’t believe that coming here illegally is acceptable behavior. It ought to be punished. 

 
I can buy the argument that we shouldnt call them illegal aliens. 

But there is no other argument. They are illegal immigrants, and there is zero wrong with saying so. This is like the move away from secretary. Just more wokus pocus nonsense because some yahoos in California are bored.

 
I can buy the argument that we shouldnt call them illegal aliens. 

But there is no other argument. They are illegal immigrants, and there is zero wrong with saying so. This is like the move away from secretary. Just more wokus pocus nonsense because some yahoos in California are bored.
I don’t agree with you at all, but I love the phrase “wokus pocus”. That’s very good. Did you come up with that? 

 
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As I wrote; illegal is an act, when you designate a PERSON as illegal you’re dehumanizing them. 
 

And by the way, I don’t believe that coming here illegally is acceptable behavior. It ought to be punished. 
And yet you have no problem being dismissive of people you disagree using terms such as deniers, which us also dehumanizing. 

 
Really? That’s your best analogy. It’s not very good. 
Oh there is lots more.  Your use of white previledge is also dismissive and dehumanizing.  The whole media complex you defend is dismissive and dehumanizes whites.  Your ignorant beliefs that the only reason people hate the mainstream media is propaganda from right-wing media is 100 percent out of whack with reality.  People on the right hate the MSM, because the MSM hates them.  It is that simple. 

 
And yet you have no problem being dismissive of people you disagree using terms such as deniers, which us also dehumanizing. 
Whether or not Tim is a hypocrite (I don’t necessarily think so, but let’s assume he is), it’s not really relevant to whether he is correct with respect to this particular point. So is this an attempt to undermine his credibility rather than address the premise, or is it just an opportunity to take a swipe at him?

 
Whether or not Tim is a hypocrite (I don’t necessarily think so, but let’s assume he is), it’s not really relevant to whether he is correct with respect to this particular point. So is this an attempt to undermine his credibility rather than address the premise, or is it just an opportunity to take a swipe at him?
It is an attempt to get through to him how dehumanizing his rhetoric is.  It is not just him though, it's the entire woke movement.  They expect white conservatives to be hyper-sensitive to every minority group while treat white conservatives like sub-human trash.  And then when you point out how rude they are, they just mock the idea that white people can be hurt since they are the people in power. 

 
Whether or not Tim is a hypocrite (I don’t necessarily think so, but let’s assume he is), it’s not really relevant to whether he is correct with respect to this particular point. So is this an attempt to undermine his credibility rather than address the premise, or is it just an opportunity to take a swipe at him?
Gee thanks lol 

 
Someone who comes here illegally has committed a crime (albeit a minor one.) That doesn’t make them an illegal person.

 
I pay for the job. Legally I’m allowed to pay up to $600 for any service without either a wage or 1099 (independent contractor.) If the work exceeds $600 (pretty rare) then I do a 1099. 
I didn't ask if you were within the bounds of the law.

You're a smart guy; I'll bet you can figure out what the true hourly wage is that you pay.

 
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I didn't ask if you were within the bounds of the law.

You're a smart guy; I'll bet you can figure out what the true hourly wage you pay.
Depends on the job. Sometimes it probably works out to under minimum wage; sometimes over. The whole point of independent contractor work is that you don’t worry about it. I pay for convenience and availability. 

 
When you’re hiring two guys to carry off old furniture that someone dumped in your shopping center, you’re not looking for the nearest union. And they don’t want the work. 

 
Some of the posts here about unions and wages crack me up. The guys I hire occasionally that hang around the Home Depot parking lot have a far greater intuitive understanding of capitalism than do many of the so-called “conservatives” in this forum and elsewhere. 

 
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Sometimes, in fact quite often,  political correctness, or “cancel culture”, can be a very good thing. I would like to cancel the term “illegal immigrants”. Here is my argument: 

In a free society, a person cannot be illegal; only an act is illegal. It’s true that we sometimes refer to a person who has committed a serious crime as a felon (meaning one who has committed a felony.) But the act of not having proper papers, or crossing the border illegally, or staying here beyond one’s visa: NONE of these acts are felonies. They are all misdemeanors. 
By referring to an undocumented person as an “illegal” we are dehumanizing them, making them non-persons in our society. I do not believe this is deliberate for most people who use this term; they do so without really considering the effects of what they’re saying . Which is why I do not, at the present time, condemn anyone for using the term “illegal”. But I would like to reach a time when everyone recognizes that it’s offensive, and then we CAN condemn those who use it. 
I am fully aware of what I mean when I say it.  Can you just cross into Canada because you want to and work?  NO.  That would make you illegal.  Calling someone undocumented is the way to justify them being here.  I fully understand that the labor market is as bad as I've ever seen it, that doesn't justify undocumented - they should all be documented.  Many of these people are exploited by owners who do not pay them fair wages or benefits.  They also discard them if there is a work safety issue, their word against the worker's word.  I wish the states would fine heavily these places that use them.  

If they want to go from illegal to legal, the Biden administration should be placing measures to make sure this happens, then they get the full benefits of citizenship.  

 
Some of the posts here about unions and wages crack me up. The guys I hire occasionally that hang around the Home Depot parking lot have a far greater intuitive understanding of capitalism than do many of the so-called “conservatives” in this forum and elsewhere. 
What happens when you hire a couple for a job and they mess it up?   These guys are not insured.  

 
Whether or not Tim is a hypocrite (I don’t necessarily think so, but let’s assume he is), it’s not really relevant to whether he is correct with respect to this particular point. So is this an attempt to undermine his credibility rather than address the premise, or is it just an opportunity to take a swipe at him?
It's because nobody likes a scold, and this whole thread is that of a scold and a pedant who is being exacting. 

 
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But if they stay in Mexico, however will your friends continue to rip off the government for the useless bits of wall they built? 
Would everyone be happy if they stayed in Mexico and crossed over, only on election day, in order to cast their vote for the Democrat?
Maybe accept mail in voting from bordering countries?

....or would they do that without being granted everything that the Democrats offer?

 
Depends on the job. Sometimes it probably works out to under minimum wage; sometimes over. The whole point of independent contractor work is that you don’t worry about it. I pay for convenience and availability. 
The whole point is you don’t worry about it?You don’t worry about paying workers less than minimum wage for manual labor?  I find this statement repugnant if I’m being honest. Also, I’m not certain your practices are 100% legal under California and federal law.

But that’s irrelevant to the topic of the the thread. I agree with you that we should try to use different terminology. 

 
Would everyone be happy if they stayed in Mexico and crossed over, only on election day, in order to cast their vote for the Democrat?
Maybe accept mail in voting from bordering countries?

....or would they do that without being granted everything that the Democrats offer?
They would still be ineligible to vote...just like now.

 

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