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Please don’t call undocumented people “illegal immigrants”


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1 minute ago, timschochet said:

1. There is no such creature as an “illegal”. 
2. Please provide evidence that undocumented immigrants are allowed to vote in the city of San Francisco. 

How dare you call them creatures!!!  :hot:

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Posted (edited)
3 minutes ago, timschochet said:

In school board elections. And doesn’t that make sense to you? 

Evidence provided.

Edited by identikit
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Just now, timschochet said:

Almost none of them will ever vote. This is yet another falsehood. 

They will if we give them a path to citizenship.  They will also pay more in taxes once they can be hired legally.  Win Win.

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Just now, timschochet said:

In school board elections. And doesn’t that make sense to you? 

Nothing about illegal immigration makes sense to me.  I don’t know what makes you and other Liberals think you can choose which laws to follow.  Civilization is built in rule of law.  When that breaks down it leads to a very bad place.

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Just now, Nugget said:

They will if we give them a path to citizenship.  They will also pay more in taxes once they can be hired legally.  Win Win.

I am in favor of a path to citizenship. But I want it to be a long path. 
Personally I don’t believe that anyone who came here without papers should ever be allowed to vote in our elections (I don’t care about school board.) 

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3 minutes ago, timschochet said:

Almost none of them will ever vote. This is yet another falsehood. 

What are you talking about?  Liberals have been pushing amnesty for years.  And they won’t stop.  I’m going to start calling you Baghdad Bob.  You’ve crossed the line into pure propaganda.

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Just now, ekbeats said:

What are you talking about?  Liberals have been pushing amnesty for years.  And they won’t stop.  I’m going to start calling you Baghdad Bob.  You’ve crossed the line into pure propaganda.

Amnesty and citizenship are far removed from each other. 

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4 minutes ago, ekbeats said:

Nothing about illegal immigration makes sense to me.  I don’t know what makes you and other Liberals think you can choose which laws to follow.  Civilization is built in rule of law.  When that breaks down it leads to a very bad place.

According to the article you linked, nearly one third of all school children in San Francisco have  parents who are undocumented. 
Perhaps you don’t like this. Perhaps you would like to see these parents deported, and the children with them (although no doubt many of those same children were born here.). But that’s not the reality of the situation as it stands. Those children’s parents ought to have some representation in deciding the school board members. 

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1 minute ago, timschochet said:

Amnesty and citizenship are far removed from each other. 

You just said that illegal aliens will never vote.  And then a post later you said that you support a pathway to citizenship.  It’s just one lie after another coming from your mouth.  Who do you think you’re fooling here?  

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Just now, ekbeats said:

You just said that illegal aliens will never vote.  And then a post later you said that you support a pathway to citizenship.  It’s just one lie after another coming from your mouth.  Who do you think you’re fooling here?  

If they are citizens, doesn't that mean they are not "illegal aliens"?

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Just now, timschochet said:

According to the article you linked, nearly one third of all school children in San Francisco have  parents who are undocumented. 
Perhaps you don’t like this. Perhaps you would like to see these parents deported, and the children with them (although no doubt many of those same children were born here.). But that’s not the reality of the situation as it stands. Those children’s parents ought to have some representation in deciding the school board members. 

And how big a leap is it to say that they should also have representation at the state and federal level?  It’s called a slippery slope.  You know it well.  Let them all in and eventually we’ll have to start treating them like citizens.

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If and when undocumented immigrants are given a path to citizenship, it will be a long time before they are actually given citizenship, even under the most liberal of current proposals. 
 

Once they are given citizenship, if we can  follow voting trends for those in similar economic strata to the vast majority of undocumented immigrants, we can safely predict that only a small minority will choose to actually vote. Of those that do, some will vote Republican. 
 

Therefore this whole meme about how Democrats are pushing this issue to provide them with a bunch of new voters is total BS. 

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5 minutes ago, ekbeats said:

You just said that illegal aliens will never vote.  And then a post later you said that you support a pathway to citizenship.  It’s just one lie after another coming from your mouth.  Who do you think you’re fooling here?  

I wrote that almost none of them will ever vote. I’m confident this is the case. How have I lied? 

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It doesn’t take a math genius to figure out that an open door policy, coupled with free access to the best schools and the best healthcare in the world, equals a complete disaster for the country.  You’ll see.  It will be too late by then, but you’ll see.

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4 minutes ago, ekbeats said:

And how big a leap is it to say that they should also have representation at the state and federal level?  It’s called a slippery slope.  You know it well.  Let them all in and eventually we’ll have to start treating them like citizens.

I don’t believe in slippery slopes. 

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Just now, ekbeats said:

It doesn’t take a math genius to figure out that an open door policy, coupled with free access to the best schools and the best healthcare in the world, equals a complete disaster for the country.  You’ll see.  It will be too late by then, but you’ll see.

WAT?

 

"IF we have highly educated, healthy people living here, the end is NIGH!" 

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2 minutes ago, timschochet said:

If and when undocumented immigrants are given a path to citizenship, it will be a long time before they are actually given citizenship, even under the most liberal of current proposals. 
 

Once they are given citizenship, if we can  follow voting trends for those in similar economic strata to the vast majority of undocumented immigrants, we can safely predict that only a small minority will choose to actually vote. Of those that do, some will vote Republican. 
 

Therefore this whole meme about how Democrats are pushing this issue to provide them with a bunch of new voters is total BS. 

There have been studies showing that illegals do vote - today.  It’s not that hard, and it’s getting easier and easier as Democrats loosen up the voting laws.

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1 minute ago, Sinn Fein said:

WAT?

 

"IF we have highly educated, healthy people living here, the end is NIGH!" 

I have no idea what you are talking about.  Are you saying that the flood of illegals coming in are highly educated?  That’s a joke.

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Just now, ekbeats said:

It doesn’t take a math genius to figure out that an open door policy, coupled with free access to the best schools and the best healthcare in the world, equals a complete disaster for the country.  You’ll see.  It will be too late by then, but you’ll see.

Now you’re raising a completely separate issue. We were discussing undocumented immigration. Now you’re discussing ALL immigration. I’m perfectly happy to have this new discussion with you (and indeed it’s always been my contention that many  conservatives who complain about “illegal immigration” would really like to do away with almost ALL immigration) but you’ll have to decide which one you wish to discuss. 

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Just now, ekbeats said:

I have no idea what you are talking about.  Are you saying that the flood of illegals coming in are highly educated?  That’s a joke.

You just said they were coming here for great schools and healthcare.

:shrug:

 

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1 minute ago, ekbeats said:

There have been studies showing that illegals do vote - today.  It’s not that hard, and it’s getting easier and easier as Democrats loosen up the voting laws.

What studies do you have that show that undocumented people vote today? And please try to avoid quoting a hate group like FAIR- I mean legitimate studies? 

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2 minutes ago, ekbeats said:

There have been studies showing that illegals do vote - today.  It’s not that hard, and it’s getting easier and easier as Democrats loosen up the voting laws.

I would like to see those studies - and see how someone determined undocumented people were voting.

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2 minutes ago, timschochet said:

Now you’re raising a completely separate issue. We were discussing undocumented immigration. Now you’re discussing ALL immigration. I’m perfectly happy to have this new discussion with you (and indeed it’s always been my contention that many  conservatives who complain about “illegal immigration” would really like to do away with almost ALL immigration) but you’ll have to decide which one you wish to discuss. 

I don’t know one single Republican who wants to do away with all immigration.  That’s a left-wing bogeyman.  We allow roughly 650k legal immigrants into the country each year.  I have no issue at all with that.  It’s necessary and it benefits the country.  It’s the illegal immigration that I have a problem with.

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3 minutes ago, timschochet said:

What studies do you have that show that undocumented people vote today? And please try to avoid quoting a hate group like FAIR- I mean legitimate studies? 

Well that’s the problem isn’t it?  You liberals view anyone who has conservative views on immigration as Nazis.  Yet they are the only ones willing to conduct research on the subject.  It’s a perfect little way for you to avoid dealing with realities you don’t like.

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4 minutes ago, timschochet said:

He’s all over the place. The only consistent thing is that he doesn’t seem to want them here. 

Nope.  I want immigration, but I want it to be legal and thoughtful.  You Liberals want illegal immigration without any thoughtful consideration.  That’s just fact.  You’re the party of anarchy.  Just own it.  I’d actually respect it more.

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53 minutes ago, timschochet said:

What studies do you have that show that undocumented people vote today? And please try to avoid quoting a hate group like FAIR- I mean legitimate studies? 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/md-politics/college-park-decides-to-allow-noncitizens-to-vote-in-local-elections/2017/09/13/2b7adb4a-987b-11e7-87fc-c3f7ee4035c9_story.html

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1 hour ago, timschochet said:

1. There is no such creature as an “illegal”. 
2. Please provide evidence that undocumented immigrants are allowed to vote in the city of San Francisco. 

There's no documentation of these people at all?  That seems demeaning to refer to them this way

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Posted (edited)
On 4/29/2021 at 11:42 PM, timschochet said:

Someone who comes here illegally has committed a crime (albeit a minor one.) That doesn’t make them an illegal person.

It appears the gap in perspective here has to do with the low value you please on citizenship/residence in the United States. 
 

Illegal Immigrants are stealing residence in America... this is not up for debate. 

I personally think residence in America is worth more than $500-1000, which would put it in the same tier as Grand Theft. 

I don't consider Grand Theft a minor crime,.. but I guess we're at least figuring out the value you place on being an American. :lol: 

Edited by [icon]
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3 hours ago, timschochet said:

According to the article you linked, nearly one third of all school children in San Francisco have  parents who are undocumented. 
Perhaps you don’t like this. Perhaps you would like to see these parents deported, and the children with them (although no doubt many of those same children were born here.). But that’s not the reality of the situation as it stands. Those children’s parents ought to have some representation in deciding the school board members. 

In a city that house a huge housing shortage...

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On 4/29/2021 at 11:42 PM, timschochet said:

Someone who comes here illegally has committed a crime (albeit a minor one.) That doesn’t make them an illegal person.

No one is saying the person's is illegal.  They immigrated here.  They did so illegally.  

We're not calling them an illegal person.  We're calling them an illegal immigrant.  Because when they immigrated--they did so illegally.  

If I called them an illegal person--your argument would make sense.  But I'm not, so...continue on Tim.

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3 minutes ago, jm192 said:

No one is saying the person's is illegal.  They immigrated here.  They did so illegally.  

We're not calling them an illegal person.  We're calling them an illegal immigrant.  Because when they immigrated--they did so illegally.  

If I called them an illegal person--your argument would make sense.  But I'm not, so...continue on Tim.

Wtf does calling them an illegal person even mean? 

Omg you cant call them an illegal person! doesnt even make sense. its not even a thing. 

 

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Posted (edited)

So it looks like it's pretty much been decided:

  • "illegal immigrant" is a proper and apt name for foreigners who come here illegally.
  • No one is against LEGAL immigration except Democrats.
  • The people who have to apply and wait to get in (and pay) - and yet are skipped in favor of "illegal immigrants" - are the actual immigrants that are being unfairly treated.

Did I miss anything?

Edited by BladeRunner
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On 4/30/2021 at 7:50 AM, timschochet said:

I’m still confused about something: about twice a year I drive up to a Home Depot, approach some day laborers and say “I’ve got a shopping center a mile from here. Somebody dumped an old couch in the alley. I want you to follow me in your truck and remove the couch.” Guy says “$100.” I say OK; or I might say “that’s too much; I’ll give you $75.” 
 

What exactly is immoral or unethical about this transaction? Some people here seem to think it makes me a bad person, or a hypocrite, or both. I’m not seeing that; what am I’m missing? 

Depends, are they going to turn around and dump the couch illegally on someone else's property?

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3 minutes ago, BladeRunner said:

Did I miss anything?

You missed: it's fun to pretend like you don't understand common figures of speech like "get in line" or "cut in line" to deflect from not having an actual argument on the issue.

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4 minutes ago, BladeRunner said:

So it looks like it's pretty much been decided:

  • "illegal immigrant" is a proper and apt name for foreigners who come here illegally.
  • No one is against LEGAL immigration except Democrats.
  • The people who have to apply and wait to get in (and pay) - and yet are skipped in favor of "illegal immigrants" - are the actual immigrants that are being unfairly treated.

Did I miss anything?

I think a lot of people say if you disagree with part of my premise, you hate the entire subject.  So Tim thinks if you don't approve of illegal immigrants coming here--ya know--illegally--then you're a xenophobe who hates people from other countries.  

It's possible to just think we should enforce our borders and only allow legal immigration.  

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7 minutes ago, jm192 said:

I think a lot of people say if you disagree with part of my premise, you hate the entire subject.  So Tim thinks if you don't approve of illegal immigrants coming here--ya know--illegally--then you're a xenophobe who hates people from other countries.  

It's possible to just think we should enforce our borders and only allow legal immigration.  

I can guarantee you that every other country in the world enforces THEIR borders.  But the USA shouldn't for some reason.

Try crossing into N.Korea, Cuba, Russia, China, hell, even Mexico and see what happens.

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On 4/29/2021 at 9:47 PM, timschochet said:

Sometimes, in fact quite often,  political correctness, or “cancel culture”, can be a very good thing. I would like to cancel the term “illegal immigrants”. Here is my argument: 

 

What you mean is this.

"If I can control the language then I will win the argument" 

It's the very foundation and why political correctness and  cancel culture exist. It has nothing to do with empathy for the people claiming to be protected. It's all about the win,

 

 

 

 

 

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9 minutes ago, E Street Brat said:

What you mean is this.

"If I can control the language then I will win the argument" 

It's the very foundation and why political correctness and  cancel culture exist. It has nothing to do with empathy for the people claiming to be protected. It's all about the win,

 

 

 

 

 

This.

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1 hour ago, jm192 said:

I think a lot of people say if you disagree with part of my premise, you hate the entire subject.  So Tim thinks if you don't approve of illegal immigrants coming here--ya know--illegally--then you're a xenophobe who hates people from other countries.  

It's possible to just think we should enforce our borders and only allow legal immigration.  

But it has to be more than just a legal/illegal distinction, right? Because otherwise, we could just decide to have open borders and then all immigration would be legal.

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7 minutes ago, ekbeats said:

Thats actually an interesting paper.

 

But, it does not support your conclusion that: "There have been studies showing that illegals do vote - today."

 

"It is possible that some respondents were without any documentation whatsoever (popularly called “illegal aliens”), though this cannot be confirmed or rejected with the information available as no respondent specifically self-identified themselves as illegal or undocumented (but many did not specifically identify themselves as having permanent resident status)."

 

Also of note: "Our results also suggest that photo-identification requirements are unlikely to be effective

at preventing electoral participation by non-citizen immigrants: In 2008, more than two thirds of

non-citizen immigrants who indicated that they were asked to show photo-identification reported that they went on to cast a vote."

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