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Liz Cheney “History is watching us.”


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7 hours ago, AAABatteries said:

I believe in not voting for #######s. 

Even Capone got expiration dates on milk.  Jimmy Carter was a nice guy also.

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On 5/7/2021 at 6:58 AM, timschochet said:

Probably not. It’s become a convenient thing in recent years for conservatives here to claim independence from the Republican Party, a growing number of them are also asserting that they were never Trump supporters

Considering there's an entire group of former Republicans that started a "Never Trump" campaign and publicly and privately did all they could to keep from getting him elected, this would seem like something that was very real and deeply felt instead of convenient.

I know I was a Never Trumper even before his election and was dismayed by the primaries (the record is on this very board) and I am also no longer a member of the American Right, which I've also said. I'm still a classical liberal and think the ideological underpinnings of the American Right and Republicans have moved so far away from the traditional classical liberal program I can no longer support it.

The ideological left and the Democrats are also anathema to the classical liberal program, so they'll get no defense from me, which I think is what you really want here. But no, their program is anathema to free markets, free inquiry, and seems to go to such personal depths of conscience as to be athwart biology, even, so I don't think I'll be doing that any time soon, thank you. 

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42 minutes ago, rockaction said:

Considering there's an entire group of former Republicans that started a "Never Trump" campaign and publicly and privately did all they could to keep from getting him elected, this would seem like something that was very real and deeply felt instead of convenient.

I know I was a Never Trumper even before his election and was dismayed by the primaries (the record is on this very board) and I am also no longer a member of the American Right, which I've also said. I'm still a classical liberal and think the ideological underpinnings of the American Right and Republicans have moved so far away from the traditional classical liberal program I can no longer support it.

The ideological left and the Democrats are also anathema to the classical liberal program, so they'll get no defense from me, which I think is what you really want here. But no, their program is anathema to free markets, free inquiry, and seems to go to such personal depths of conscience as to be athwart biology, even, so I don't think I'll be doing that any time soon, thank you. 

In your studied opinion, in the last 5-10 years, which party had moved more ideologically and in which direction?

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Posted (edited)
On 5/8/2021 at 5:51 PM, The Z Machine said:

In your studied opinion, in the last 5-10 years, which party had moved more ideologically and in which direction?

Thanks for the "studied" part. Heh.

The right and the Republican Party has, and it has moved in a statist direction, rather than a neat right/left shift. From what was once support of free trade and free markets to the support of tariffs and nods to the virtues of command economy; from reason and individualism being front and center of decision-making to the conspiracy theories and pressure groups of today; and from the party of decency and values in its official temperament turning towards constant hectoring and baiting of the other side, there are three things where I believe the right, and by extension, Republicans, are fundamentally different now.

When I worked in D.C. and was basically paid to read with the occasional work thrown in, I studied the history of the right in America. Never has it bowed so greatly to European influences, up to and including fascism, than it does now. The right has always been accused of fascism, but that has always been a fraudulent claim. From what I'm reading, it really is no longer fraudulent. There is a lot of emphasis on community and national greatness, and I'm afraid the two generally combine for an ugly cocktail. There are, as I mentioned, a lot of calls for a nationalized economy, a lot of calls for community and tradition, and a lot of calls for purity of soul and spirit, which are Continental European concepts. My opinion is that they're best left to the Continent, but it seems they've sailed ashore and are here for at least the time being.

Of course, claiming that Republicans have changed more also assumes that the Democrats always were home for democratic socialists like Sanders and Cortez, and for extreme rights movements like the trans rights movement. But these seem to dovetail as an extension of previous thoughts about economy and rights-based leanings, not a total repudiation of former principles like the Right has done on so many issues.

It is odd that the Republicans are now the party of the white working class. Forty years ago, Democrats firmly held them in the grip. Something has changed, and we see the effects in policy recommendations and in words, thoughts, and actions.

Edited by rockaction
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On 5/4/2021 at 12:18 PM, the moops said:

tim's trillion posts have made it quite clear that he is a republican that has some liberal ideas on immigration and climate change. He also has repeatedly admitted when he was wrong and owns up to his faults. And IMO, is as honest a person as there is here

This is spot on.  i agree completely.  

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2 hours ago, tommyGunZ said:

This is spot on.  i agree completely.  

I appreciate the kind words. 

One point of clarification: it’s true that I have liberal ideas on climate change, racism, and many cultural issues- but I hold that my views on immigration are not liberal but libertarian, and in keeping with traditional conservatism. 

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12 hours ago, The Z Machine said:

In your studied opinion, in the last 5-10 years, which party had moved more ideologically and in which direction?

Before Jan 6, the Left IMO. Now, I think the right has moved more. What saddens me is it’s not the majority of either side that is moving the party.

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11 hours ago, rockaction said:

It is odd that the Republicans are now the party of the white working class. Forty years ago, Democrats firmly held them in the grip. Something has changed, and we see the effects in policy recommendations and in words, thoughts, and actions.

The erosion of power of organized labor (led by the right) and the tacit agreement that what is good for corporations is good for America from the left over the last 30 years have led us here.

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11 hours ago, rockaction said:

Thanks for the "studied" part. Heh.

I know you don't sell yourself short, but you've forgotten more about political science than most have ever learned, myself included. 

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12 hours ago, rockaction said:

The right and the Republican Party has, and it has moved in a statist direction, rather than a neat right/left shift. From what was once support of free trade and free markets to the support of tariffs and nods to the virtues of command economy; from reason and individualism being front and center of decision-making to the conspiracy theories and pressure groups of today; and from the party of decency and values in its official temperament turning towards constant hectoring and baiting of the other side, there are three things where I believe the Right, and by extension, Republicans, are fundamentally different now.

First: :goodposting:

Second: another change with the Republican party is that they no longer rush to condemn their own for sex scandals. In the days of yesteryear, a sex scandal could end the career of a Republican (see: Bob Packwood, Larry Craig) while Democrats could often weather the storm (see: Bill Clinton). But nowadays, a Republican can pay off a porn star or be accused of drugging your underage sex trafficking victims, and the response is a collective shrug.

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5 hours ago, The Z Machine said:

I know you don't sell yourself short, but you've forgotten more about political science than most have ever learned, myself included. 

:lol: Well played. Ah, with flattery. I do not think the second part about forgetting is true (I seriously come here to be educated by the collective knowledge of the group. I mean that. I maybe can just provide a different perspective sometimes.) but I'll accept it and simply say thank you for the compliment. Always nice to hear.

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Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, The Z Machine said:

The erosion of power of organized labor (led by the right) and the tacit agreement that what is good for corporations is good for America from the left over the last 30 years have led us here.

I have a guy on my Twitter feed that I decided to follow because he wrote really interesting things about the world in general. I didn't know what position he was writing from, but he was indeed interesting and worth a read. Turns out he's a leftist, and in his feed, he and others often lament the demise of organized labor and they discuss why it has happened. I'd figure they'd blame the NLRB and the courts, but they don't, really. Lot of infighting and squabbling on the left about why. I can't make it through half the jargon, but the left is deeply concerned about the erosion of orgnaized labor's power.

When I took Labor Law, the academics that ran our courses blamed Reagan appointees, and I'm sure that had something to with it, but there have to be other reasons, namely, one would think that labor is somewhat adrift without real representation in Congress, as you point out. The Democrats signed NAFTA on Clinton's watch and they watched venture capital and big tech just explode in the past thirty years, largely with the acquiescence of Democrats. It's been a bad time for labor, on the whole.

Edited by rockaction
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2 hours ago, rockaction said:

Turns out he's a leftist, and in his feed, he and others often lament the demise of organized labor and find about why it has happened. I'd figure they'd blame the NLRB and the courts, but they don't, really. Lot of infighting and squabbling on the left about why.

I really think unions just lost the messaging war.  

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1 minute ago, fatguyinalittlecoat said:

I really think unions just lost the messaging war.  

That's what I think they're saying once I attempt to parse all of the socialist sort of academic jargon that they use (I can't understand what they're saying or half of the concepts most of the time). They talk about academia and its fruitless sort of Marxism and how it doesn't appeal to workers, and they go back-and-forth about labor and academia in language I admittedly can't understand (do I want to?) from that same academia. I've never commented on Twitter because of privacy reasons, but I suppose if I did, commenting on the irony of their laments about academia while using its jargon might be one of my first Tweets.

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55 minutes ago, fatguyinalittlecoat said:

I really think unions just lost the messaging war.  

That and the cratering of heavy industry that put a lot of people out of work who didn't have the skills to compete for service sector jobs.  Those working class folks used to be able to provide for their families by working a union job.  Those jobs dried up and labor was partially blamed.

Organized labor has done so little to expand their reach over the last 40 years.  As new sectors in the economy opened, labor was nowhere to be seen. 

Unions aren't cool.  They're for old people, retired folks, not people hustling in the gig economy. 

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The clock is tIcking on Liz Cheney’s leadership position. Within 48 hours from now she will be voted out. 

Yesterday on some of the morning shows I watched some of these Republican leaders desperately try to claim that this had nothing to do with Donald Trump, it was because she wasn’t focused on stopping Biden’s agenda. Which is false; on the issue of Biden, Cheney is as intransigent as the rest of them, far more so than the woman who is about to replace her.

This is 100% about fealty to Donald Trump, who has orchestrated the public punishment of anyone who is against him within the Republican Party. It’s about denying the reality of January 6, and of the election. It’s cowardly, shameful, and I challenge any Republican reading this to explain why I am wrong about this. 

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Just now, The Commish said:

Strange world we live in where a move from Cheney to Stefanik is "normal" and NOT a significant shift towards the fringe.  This isn't the party of Trump AT ALL!!!!  :lol: 

I miss the days of her being a valued Republican

I don't mind having an honest argument on policy.  This new stuff is just crazy

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7 hours ago, timschochet said:

The clock is tIcking on Liz Cheney’s leadership position. Within 48 hours from now she will be voted out. 

Yesterday on some of the morning shows I watched some of these Republican leaders desperately try to claim that this had nothing to do with Donald Trump, it was because she wasn’t focused on stopping Biden’s agenda. Which is false; on the issue of Biden, Cheney is as intransigent as the rest of them, far more so than the woman who is about to replace her.

This is 100% about fealty to Donald Trump, who has orchestrated the public punishment of anyone who is against him within the Republican Party. It’s about denying the reality of January 6, and of the election. It’s cowardly, shameful, and I challenge any Republican reading this to explain why I am wrong about this. 

Meh.  Sounds like politics as usual.  I'm not concerned.

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On 5/9/2021 at 7:01 PM, The Z Machine said:

That and the cratering of heavy industry that put a lot of people out of work who didn't have the skills to compete for service sector jobs.  Those working class folks used to be able to provide for their families by working a union job.  Those jobs dried up and labor was partially blamed.

Organized labor has done so little to expand their reach over the last 40 years.  As new sectors in the economy opened, labor was nowhere to be seen. 

Unions aren't cool.  They're for old people, retired folks, not people hustling in the gig economy. 

Unfortunately the gig economy has really been hit hard in the last year.

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32 minutes ago, BladeRunner said:

Meh.  Sounds like politics as usual.  I'm not concerned.

Aren’t you a Trump supporter even now? Aren’t you of the opinion that he did nothing wrong with regard to January 6 and that it’s possible the election was stolen from him? Why should you be concerned? 

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8 hours ago, timschochet said:

The clock is tIcking on Liz Cheney’s leadership position. Within 48 hours from now she will be voted out. 

Yesterday on some of the morning shows I watched some of these Republican leaders desperately try to claim that this had nothing to do with Donald Trump, it was because she wasn’t focused on stopping Biden’s agenda. Which is false; on the issue of Biden, Cheney is as intransigent as the rest of them, far more so than the woman who is about to replace her.

This is 100% about fealty to Donald Trump, who has orchestrated the public punishment of anyone who is against him within the Republican Party. It’s about denying the reality of January 6, and of the election. It’s cowardly, shameful, and I challenge any Republican reading this to explain why I am wrong about this. 

meh.  I can think of a lot more people in leadership positions who should be voted out and/or completely dismissed than her.  She may be in trouble in her home State as well.  so be it.

caveat:  I liked Trump for his policies, not for his demeanor.   I will take policy over demeanor.

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You know the Republicans have gone all gagootz when their treatment of a Cheney will be a BENEFICIAL talking point for Democrats in an upcoming election.  

"The Center needs to vote Democrat as the Republicans have moved Right of a Cheney."

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Posted (edited)
26 minutes ago, timschochet said:

Aren’t you a Trump supporter even now? Aren’t you of the opinion that he did nothing wrong with regard to January 6 and that it’s possible the election was stolen from him? Why should you be concerned? 

Uhm, no.  Wherever did you get that idea?  I voted for Trump because he was simply, like last election, the better of two evils.  I also have a hard time voting for a Party who count Socialists and Marxists in their membership and/or support Socialist/Marxist causes.

I think what he did on the 6th was reckless and don't necessarily believe the election was stolen.  I still have a hard time believing Biden got 81 million votes, but that doesn't mean he stole the election either.

Edited by BladeRunner
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On 5/8/2021 at 5:07 PM, rockaction said:

I know I was a Never Trumper even before his election and was dismayed by the primaries (the record is on this very board) and I am also no longer a member of the American Right, which I've also said. I'm still a classical liberal and think the ideological underpinnings of the American Right and Republicans have moved so far away from the traditional classical liberal program I can no longer support it.

The ideological left and the Democrats are also anathema to the classical liberal program, so they'll get no defense from me, which I think is what you really want here. But no, their program is anathema to free markets, free inquiry, and seems to go to such personal depths of conscience as to be athwart biology, even, so I don't think I'll be doing that any time soon, thank you. 

Yeah I continue to get pushed further and further away from either party.  Feel like I’m on the island of misfit toys. Both parties are eating themselves from the inside out.  What the GOP is doing to Liz is absolutely disgusting, straight up shameful.  And the woke culture of the left is an abject disaster. Feel so disenfranchised.  

Was at a good friends house last night with a few different families.  All upper middle class classic life long republicans. To a person (8 adults) they feel pushed completely out of the GOP by the Trump faction. 

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8 minutes ago, dkp993 said:

Yeah I continue to get pushed further and further away from either party.  Feel like I’m on the island of misfit toys. Both parties are eating themselves from the inside out.  What the GOP is doing to Liz is absolutely disgusting, straight up shameful.  And the woke culture of the left is an abject disaster. Feel so disenfranchised.  

Was at a good friends house last night with a few different families.  All upper middle class classic life long republicans. To a person (8 adults) they feel pushed completely out of the GOP by the Trump faction. 

How many voted for Biden?

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24 minutes ago, dkp993 said:

Yeah I continue to get pushed further and further away from either party.  Feel like I’m on the island of misfit toys. Both parties are eating themselves from the inside out.  What the GOP is doing to Liz is absolutely disgusting, straight up shameful.  And the woke culture of the left is an abject disaster. Feel so disenfranchised.  

Was at a good friends house last night with a few different families.  All upper middle class classic life long republicans. To a person (8 adults) they feel pushed completely out of the GOP by the Trump faction. 

Lots of college degrees in that group too, I bet. 

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1 hour ago, Sea Duck said:

How many voted for Biden?

4, and all 4 hate that they did but flat wouldn’t vote Trump.  3 went 3rd party as a protest vote. 1 didn’t vote for the first time ever.  

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Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, dkp993 said:

Yeah I continue to get pushed further and further away from either party.  Feel like I’m on the island of misfit toys. Both parties are eating themselves from the inside out.  What the GOP is doing to Liz is absolutely disgusting, straight up shameful.  And the woke culture of the left is an abject disaster. Feel so disenfranchised.  

Was at a good friends house last night with a few different families.  All upper middle class classic life long republicans. To a person (8 adults) they feel pushed completely out of the GOP by the Trump faction. 

I get the feeling...though I don't feel pushed away.  I think it's more accurate to say I feel like they are running away from me.  Some sprinting, some jogging.  The old mantra of "Dems fall in love and the GOP falls in line" that's existed for decades is primarily why I've never felt either party was home to me.  Dem positions always seem to be based on emotion when they don't have to be and GOP positions always seem to be based on "if you're not with us, you're against us" which ironically is pretty much the birthplace of this "woke" stuff they piss and moan about.  

Most of my close friends remain in staunch alignment with their "conservative" views even though the party is working against them.  They will tell you they are simply settling for the "lesser of two evils" in their view and aren't "happy" with their choices, but they lay that at the feet of everyone else as if it was forced upon them which I think is 100% bull#### and just a lazy, irresponsible way of going about things.  I'm absolutely a commie pinko to them in terms of politics even though I want immigration reform, believe in law and order, have a strong affinity for lower taxes and balanced budgets, and think the less that government is in our day to day lives, the better.  Right now it seems things are reduced to "are you with Trump or against him?" and depending on the answer to that question, none of the rest matters.  

I also believe that the party sees this too.  I'm not confident that they actually agree with Trump, but the absolutely see that being on the opposite side of Trump threatens their existence so they jump on board.  Honestly, I don't know if it's worse to be that kind of person or the kind of person who genuinely believes the election was stolen.  At least in the latter, there's a genuinely honest belief being held.  It's a sad state of affairs.  

Edited by The Commish
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Posted (edited)
37 minutes ago, The Commish said:

I get the feeling...though I don't feel pushed away.  I think it's more accurate to say I feel like they are running away from me.  Some sprinting, some jogging.  The old mantra of "Dems fall in love and the GOP falls in line" that's existed for decades is primarily why I've never felt either party was home to me.  Dem positions always seem to be based on emotion when they don't have to be and GOP positions always seem to be based on "if you're not with us, you're against us" which ironically is pretty much the birthplace of this "woke" stuff they piss and moan about.  

Most of my close friends remain in staunch alignment with their "conservative" views even though the party is working against them.  They will tell you they are simply settling for the "lesser of two evils" in their view and aren't "happy" with their choices, but they lay that at the feet of everyone else as if it was forced upon them which I think is 100% bull#### and just a lazy, irresponsible way of going about things.  I'm absolutely a commie pinko to them in terms of politics even though I want immigration reform, believe in law and order, have a strong affinity for lower taxes and balanced budgets, and think the less that government is in our day to day lives, the better.  Right now it seems things are reduced to "are you with Trump or against him?" and depending on the answer to that question, none of the rest matters.  

I also believe that the party sees this too.  I'm not confident that they actually agree with Trump, but the absolutely see that being on the opposite side of Trump threatens their existence so they jump on board.  Honestly, I don't know if it's worse to be that kind of person or the kind of person who genuinely believes the election was stolen.  At least in the latter, there's a genuinely honest belief being held.  It's a sad state of affairs.  

The funny part is the "fall in line" that they neither party seem to "fall in line" if they don't get their way.  And the GoP is nothing but emotion currently. All bent out of shape about Mr potato head and doctor Seuss spinning it in the government did it.... Sure I won't pretend there isn't a left influence but companies are supposed to act in their best interest, that's always been conservative, yet the right is all bent out of shape when businesses do what they feel is right.

It's all lunacy all over the place. They both change their tunes, flip flop, what abouts...

The GoP hates cancel culture but want to cancel Cheney for her views.... Wtf is happening

Edited by belljr
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35 minutes ago, timschochet said:

This is a very interesting comment. Can you expand on what you mean by this? 

It's rather straightforward.  I'm not confident all those siding with Trump believe the election was stolen, but will say that to keep the Trump people on their side.  I have to wonder if given a dose of sodium pentothal how many would change their tune.  Maybe it's not as many as I think and there is genuine belief.  At the same time, the last thing I'd label most politicians is "genuine" in any manner.  I don't know why this particular hill would be the exception to that rule.  

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29 minutes ago, The Commish said:

It's rather straightforward.  I'm not confident all those siding with Trump believe the election was stolen, but will say that to keep the Trump people on their side.  I have to wonder if given a dose of sodium pentothal how many would change their tune.  Maybe it's not as many as I think and there is genuine belief.  At the same time, the last thing I'd label most politicians is "genuine" in any manner.  I don't know why this particular hill would be the exception to that rule.  

OK so you’re referring to politicians, not regular folks. I misunderstood you. 

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19 hours ago, Thunderlips said:

You know the Republicans have gone all gagootz when their treatment of a Cheney will be a BENEFICIAL talking point for Democrats in an upcoming election.  

"The Center needs to vote Democrat as the Republicans have moved Right of a Cheney."

I swear I just heard gagootz for the first time the other day. Now it's going to have be apart of my everyday lexicon. 

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7 hours ago, timschochet said:

The GOP is really going to embarrass itself tomorrow. Shameful day to be a Republican. 

Oh for sure, tomorrow will be so much more shameful than oh, say the last 5 years or so. There is no shame left for those that still identify as Trump GOPers, assuming there was ever any to begin with.

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This really seems like this is Much Ado About Nothing. I think the Democrats are amping this up as usual to score points. They don't really give two beans about Liz Cheney as long as they can use something for propaganda.

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10 minutes ago, BladeRunner said:

This really seems like this is Much Ado About Nothing. I think the Democrats are amping this up as usual to score points. They don't really give two beans about Liz Cheney as long as they can use something for propaganda.

Republicans replacing their 3rd highest position because she won’t go for the last Prez’s attempts to overturn the election is an important statement being put out there by the Republicans. 

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15 hours ago, The Commish said:

I also believe that the party sees this too.  I'm not confident that they actually agree with Trump, but the absolutely see that being on the opposite side of Trump threatens their existence so they jump on board

Oh I agree, and that’s exactly why they’ve lost me for the foreseeable future.  F-ing spineless cowards.  While I disagree with Bernie’s policies, for example, I don’t for a second doubt he’s a man of his convictions at least.  Same thing with Liz here, she’s too conservative for my taste but has earned my respect though this (and exposed the lion share of the GOP as cowards).  It’s all so disappointing.  

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30 minutes ago, BladeRunner said:

This really seems like this is Much Ado About Nothing. I think the Democrats are amping this up as usual to score points. They don't really give two beans about Liz Cheney as long as they can use something for propaganda.

As someone who doesn’t/didn’t support Trump and is clearly a conservative I’m absolutely shocked this doesn’t sicken you.  You also somehow don’t think Trump is running and controlling your party.  It honestly makes zero sense.

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11 minutes ago, dkp993 said:

As someone who doesn’t/didn’t support Trump and is clearly a conservative I’m absolutely shocked this doesn’t sicken you.  You also somehow don’t think Trump is running and controlling your party.  It honestly makes zero sense.

You're right it doesn't. He's been out of office for 6 months now.  

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31 minutes ago, BladeRunner said:

You're right it doesn't. He's been out of office for 6 months now.  

You seem to smart to be that blind.  But party line and all I guess.   

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