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Liz Cheney “History is watching us.”


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Posted (edited)
13 hours ago, bigbottom said:

Yeah, that’s a senior in high school knocking up an eighth grader. Yuck. 

 

9 hours ago, Sea Duck said:

In this particular case, it was more likely to be a college freshman impregnating a girl who had just started the 9th grade. Also yuck. And also a felony under Florida statutes of 1983.

It's more like a senior knocking up a freshman, but let's all speculate, shall we? Sounds about right for this discussion. And felonies need to have a charge by someone before they're prosecuted. It's called prosecutorial discretion, and was probably exercised in this case.

Not all felonies acts go charged and punished. You don't seem to get that, SeaDuck, but you keep on trucking your partisan song and calling it a felony. It's not. Not until he's charged. You're not a lawyer. It's an act that can be considered felonious by the DA.

Edited by rockaction
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Posted (edited)
12 minutes ago, rockaction said:

 

It's more like a senior knocking up a freshman, but let's all speculate, shall we? Sounds about right for this discussion.

Why the snarky response?  A 14 year old freshman would only be 17 as a senior at the same time. Alternatively, an 18 year old senior would have been an eighth grader at 14 at the same time.  But yes, it’s possible that you have an older senior and a younger freshman. Still yuck. And for what it’s worth, I didn’t say anything about it being a crime and instead was agreeing with fatguy’s post, which happened to be in line with yours on the criminality aspect. 

Edited by bigbottom
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Just now, bigbottom said:

Why the snarky response?  A 14 year old freshman would only be 17 as a senior at the same time. Alternatively, an 18 year old senior would have been an eighth grader at 14 at the same time.  But yes, it’s possible that you have an older senior and a younger freshman. Still yuck. 

The snarky response is because it's probably very much or will be very much within public discourse soon, and I'll almost bet it's how I've presented it. Generally, people turn 18 as seniors and turn 14 as freshman. That's keeping with almost everybody I knew in high school. And they probably started at 17 and 13, on average.

Perhaps it's snarky because SeaDuck gave me one of these :mellow: before when he didn't want to address my totally valid point, so there's that going into the conversation. I loathe that ####.

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Plus, a basic Google search of "high school senior, age" gives you a bolded "18 years old" as an answer, with the potential for 17 being the other age, but on average is 18. Google "Average age of high school senior," and you get 14 years old as your bold answer.

One would figure when discussing hypotheticals, one would take the average age other than the one that makes it seem more drastic, but you guys do you.

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Just now, rockaction said:

The snarky response is because it's probably very much or will be very much within public discourse soon, and I'll almost bet it's how I've presented it. Generally, people turn 18 as seniors and turn 14 as freshman. That's keeping with almost everybody I knew in high school. And they probably started at 17 and 13, on average.

Perhaps it's snarky because SeaDuck gave me one of these :mellow: before when he didn't want to address my totally valid point, so there's that going into the conversation. I loathe that ####.

Turn 14 as freshmen?  That would mean they start freshmen year as 13-year-olds (and are 16-year-old seniors)?  I’m guessing you meant to say they start freshmen man year as 14 year-olds and turn 15. In any event, yes, it is certainly possible that an 18-year-old Senior knocked up a 14-year-old freshman. But since they’re having sex at the same time, it would be either a younger freshman or an older senior, depending on when during the school year he got her pregnant. Regardless, yuck. Just my opinion, though. Sorry if it annoys you. 

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Just now, bigbottom said:

Turn 14 as freshmen?  That would mean they start freshmen year as 13-year-olds (and are 16-year-old seniors)?  I’m guessing you meant to say they start freshmen man year as 14 year-olds and turn 15. In any event, yes, it is certainly possible that an 18-year-old Senior knocked up a 14-year-old freshman. But since they’re having sex at the same time, it would be either a younger freshman or an older senior, depending on when during the school year he got her pregnant. Regardless, yuck. Just my opinion, though. Sorry if it annoys you. 

No, your opinion is fine. The age discrepancy you assume isn't in keeping with the average ages of the two people in question, that's all.

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2 minutes ago, rockaction said:

Plus, a basic Google search of "high school senior, age" gives you a bolded "18 years old" as an answer, with the potential for 17 being the other age, but on average is 18. Google "Average age of high school senior," and you get 14 years old as your bold answer.

One would figure when discussing hypotheticals, one would take the average age other than the one that makes it seem more drastic, but you guys do you

Do you mean average age of high school freshman?  I’m assuming that’s a a typo in your post. And unless a whole bunch of people are flunking a grade, it doesn’t really make sense that the average age of a freshman is 14 and the average age of a senior is 18. I mean, I don’t want to question the underpinnings of your Google searches, but how does that work?

Put another way, are there seniors that start at 17 and turn 18 during their senior year?  Of course. And are there freshman who start at 14 and turn 15 during their freshman year?  Again, of course. So yea, he could have been an older senior who turned 18 early in his senior year, or she could have been a younger freshman who turned 15 late in her freshman year.  But as an average, on September 1, most seniors will be 17 (not 18) and most eighth graders will be 14.  Conversely, on May 1, most seniors will be 18, but most freshmen will be 15 (not 14).  And since this couple is not time traveling while having sex, I’d argue that the “averages” you cite don’t actually support your proposition. But if I were a betting man, I think you’re right that it’s more likely than not that she was a freshman and he was a senior, not because of statistical analysis, but because it would be exceptional and surprisingly sad for an 18 year old senior to be trolling the junior high for sex.  In any event, an 18 year old knocking up a 14 year old, even in the 80s when I was both a 14 year old and an 18 year old, is . . . yuck. 

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Posted (edited)
40 minutes ago, rockaction said:

No, your opinion is fine. The age discrepancy you assume isn't in keeping with the average ages of the two people in question, that's all.

For what it’s worth, as you suggested, I just did a Google search for “average age of high school freshman” and the first 5 results say 14-15 years old, not 14 years old. I also did a Google search for “average age of 8th grader” and the results state 13-14 years old. Finally, I did a search for “average age of high school senior” and most results state 17-18 years old. In fact, this was the very first search result: https://www.reference.com/world-view/average-age-freshman-sophomore-junior-senior-d9f715dbfc5e75e0

Edit:  I think the “bolded” 18 years of age you are referring to might be the search result listing for Wikipedia. If you open that link, here is what it says: 

The twelfth grade is the twelfth school year after kindergarten. It is also the last year of compulsory secondary education, or "high school". Students are often 17–18 years old. Twelfth graders are referred to as Seniors.

I didn’t find anything in that link that actually says that the average age of high school seniors in the U.S. is 18. It’s only in the Google search result. 

Edited by bigbottom
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Yeah, BB, I meant the actual Google searches. Type in "average age of a high school senior" or "average age of a high school freshman" into Google and you'll get the bolded result of "18 years old" and "14 years old." That's exactly what I'm saying. I'd like to bring my own tone back to one that is hospitable, though.

But that's what you'll find. Your analysis is largely correct, too. One can look at it your way, only that means they were probably 17 and 13, which would not be a felony, most likely. Everything is sort of messy.

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Posted (edited)

Try "average age of high school senior" and see what you get. I'm getting a big bold answer that says "18 years old."

Edited by rockaction
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2 minutes ago, rockaction said:

Try "average age of high school senior" and see what you get. I'm getting a big bold answer that says "18 years old."

Is it the Wikipedia link?  Because the bolded headline in the search result is not actually in the wiki article. 

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This is what I'm getting, BB. YMMV.

"Average age of high school senior"

18 years old

The average age of a senior in high school is 17 or 18 years old. Being a senior at that age means that it's nearing time to graduate from high school and going to college or enter the adult world in some working capacity.

https://www.reference.com › world-view › average-age-fr...

What Is the Average Age of a Freshman, Sophomore, Junior ...

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This is what I get from "average age of high school freshman," and is different from before.

14 to 15 years

In the United States, ninth grade is usually the first year in high school (called "upper secondary school" in other countries). In this system, ninth graders are also often referred to as freshmen. It can also be the last year of junior high school. The typical age for U.S. 9th grade students is 14 to 15 years.

https://en.wikipedia.org › wiki › Ninth_grade

Ninth grade - Wikipedia

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2 minutes ago, rockaction said:

This is what I'm getting, BB. YMMV.

"Average age of high school senior"

18 years old

The average age of a senior in high school is 17 or 18 years old. Being a senior at that age means that it's nearing time to graduate from high school and going to college or enter the adult world in some working capacity.

https://www.reference.com › world-view › average-age-fr...

What Is the Average Age of a Freshman, Sophomore, Junior ...

Right. The average age of a high school senior is 17-18 years old, not 18 years old. The headline in the search result is not in the actual text of the link you quoted. 

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Posted (edited)
2 minutes ago, bigbottom said:

Right. The average age of a high school senior is 17-18 years old, not 18 years old. The headline in the search result is not in the actual text of the link you quoted. 

Oh, it is for mine. It's bolded and right at the top.

It says "18 years old." I didn't type that in to the text box. That's a direct cut-and-paste, much like the "14 to 15 years" was a direct cut-and-paste, too.

Edited by rockaction
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Just now, rockaction said:

Oh, it is for mine. It's bolded and right at the top.

It says "18 years old." I didn't type that in to the text box. That's a direct cut-and-paste, much like the "14 or 15 years old" was a direct cut-and-paste, too.

Yes, you’re cutting and pasting that from the Google search result, right?

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Just so you know this is what I'm seeing the "14 to 15 years" has this: "About 16,600,000 results (0.49 seconds)"

The 18 years old has this: "About 237,000,000 results (0.60 seconds)"

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I think I'm now just writing so that you know I'm seeing this and not lying, rather than arguing against the substantive argument about 17-18 years of age, which sounds very right to me. I'm not disputing that.

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Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, rockaction said:

Yes.

And what I’m saying is that the Google search result that says “18 years old” is not an accurate reflection of the source. Click the link and read the substantive text. It says 17-18 years old. It doesn’t say 18 years old  

Moreover, you stated previously that the same search for freshman yielded 14 years old, but now acknowledge that it says 14-15 years old. 

It’s really not a big deal, but I didn’t care for your suggestion that I was being disingenuous in my initial comment. 

Edited by bigbottom
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1 minute ago, bigbottom said:

And what I’m saying is that the Google search result that says “18 years old” is not an accurate reflection of the source. Click the link and read the substantive text. It says 17-18 years old. It doesn’t say 18 years old  

Moreover, you stated previously that the same search for freshman yielded 14 years old, but now acknowledge that it says 14-15 years old. 

It’s really not a big deal, but I didn’t care you for suggestion that I was being disingenuous in my initial comment. 

Mmm...that is an issue, and would be an issue in a courtroom perhaps, but mine changed from "14 years old" to "14 to 15 years." I must have worded the search terms differently. I'll bet if I plumb away I could get that result again but there seems to be no need since the substantive element of it is really the important part.

I didn't suggest you were being disingenuous. I don't think that's really an issue with you. I don't think that's an issue with most people on this board. SeaDuck had him as a college-aged freshman. I doubted that, and stated why.

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2 minutes ago, fatguyinalittlecoat said:

For two great posters this is a really dumb exchange.  Kids that are aged four years apart are, on average, also four grades apart.  

Precisely. That’s why I took issue with the snarkiness. I think we’ve sorted everything out now. 

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1 minute ago, rockaction said:

Mmm...that is an issue, and would be an issue in a courtroom perhaps, but mine changed from "14 years old" to "14 to 15 years." I must have worded the search terms differently. I'll bet if I plumb away I could get that result again but there seems to be no need since the substantive element of it is really the important part.

I didn't suggest you were being disingenuous. I don't think that's really an issue with you. I don't think that's an issue with most people on this board. SeaDuck had him as a college-aged freshman. I doubted that, and stated why.

In the 80s (the time in question), I was 18 for the entirety of my freshman year in college. And the vast majority of my friends in college were 18 for some or all of their college freshman year. 

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2 minutes ago, bigbottom said:

Precisely. That’s why I took issue with the snarkiness. I think we’ve sorted everything out now. 

I don't have a ton to add to that, either.

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Just now, bigbottom said:

In the 80s (the time in question), I was 18 for the entirety of my freshman year in college. And the vast majority of my friends in college were 18 for some or all of their college freshman year. 

In the 90s, I had a brief moment of being 18 as a post-grad high school student (consider it when I should have been in college). I was seventeen until late August after I graduated high school, which I'm sure many people have had. I'm arguing that it's more likely that he was seventeen when she was pregnant, which makes more sense and keeps him out of felony range, which is what I'm generally arguing against. Perhaps it might behoove us to check the story as it comes out. I could be wrong. I'd doubt it, but it's certainly within reason.

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Posted (edited)
19 minutes ago, rockaction said:

In the 90s, I had a brief moment of being 18 as a post-grad high school student (consider it when I should have been in college). I was seventeen until late August after I graduated high school, which I'm sure many people have had. I'm arguing that it's more likely that he was seventeen when she was pregnant, which makes more sense and keeps him out of felony range, which is what I'm generally arguing against. Perhaps it might behoove us to check the story as it comes out. I could be wrong. I'd doubt it, but it's certainly within reason.

I’ve stated the same thing as a more than likely conclusion. Even though most 14-18 comparators on a given day are either 8th graders and high school seniors or 9th graders and college freshmen, it would be even more shocking if he knocked her up while she was in junior high or he was in college. I’ll bet on a yuck over a double-yuck. So while my initial observation was valid, i acknowledge that it very well could be off the mark. 

Edited by bigbottom
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9 minutes ago, rockaction said:
13 minutes ago, bigbottom said:

In the 80s (the time in question), I was 18 for the entirety of my freshman year in college. And the vast majority of my friends in college were 18 for some or all of their college freshman year. 

In the 90s, I had a brief moment of being 18 as a post-grad high school student (consider it when I should have been in college). I was seventeen until late August after I graduated high school, which I'm sure many people have had. I'm arguing that it's more likely that he was seventeen when she was pregnant, which makes more sense and keeps him out of felony range, which is what I'm generally arguing against. Perhaps it might behoove us to check the story as it comes out. I could be wrong. I'd doubt it, but it's certainly within reason.

In the early 90’s when I graduated I was 17.  Was super pissed that year as my school had a policy in place that once you turned 18 you could sign yourself for school (presumably because you were an adult) and no longer needed your parents to do it.  I was the only one I knew who couldn’t.  🤬

As the father of a young daughter the idea of my 14 yr old getting pregnant makes me want to vomit.  And as rock can arrest some real anger gets invoked in me with the thought of an adult and a child together (see the Matt Gaetz thread).  But here this falls closer to the yuck and disapproval side for me vs the going to the kicking down some doors side.  

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25 minutes ago, rockaction said:

In the 90s, I had a brief moment of being 18 as a post-grad high school student (consider it when I should have been in college). I was seventeen until late August after I graduated high school, which I'm sure many people have had. I'm arguing that it's more likely that he was seventeen when she was pregnant, which makes more sense and keeps him out of felony range, which is what I'm generally arguing against. Perhaps it might behoove us to check the story as it comes out. I could be wrong. I'd doubt it, but it's certainly within reason.

Per the Casper Star Tribune, he told the newspaper that he was 18 when he got her pregnant. 

https://trib.com/news/state-and-regional/govt-and-politics/us-house-candidate-bouchard-says-he-impregnated-14-year-old-when-he-was-18/article_c3996062-e6ad-5027-96a9-1bcd0f832eda.html

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12 minutes ago, quick-hands said:

What does the last 3 pages have to do with liz cheney?

Her primary opponent knocked up a 14-yo.

 

Not sure how that plays in Wyoming politics - but it relates to Cheney's chances at re-election.

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