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Israel Under Attack : Iron Dome Failing under onslaught of rockets


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  • [icon] changed the title to Israel Under Attack : Iron Dome Failing under onslaught of rockets
Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, timschochet said:

The rocket attacks are awful but I strongly doubt they’re “massive.”

I also question the “Palestinian troops massing at the border.” What Palestinian troops? They don’t have any military force to speak of. 

Over 480 Rockets fired into Israel from the Gaza Strip as of a couple hours ago. Enough that the Iron Dome couldn't keep up. More than one news outlet referred to it as "massive". 

Hamas... troops...soldiers....whatever. Dudes with guns are reportedly amassing at the border.

Lord you're a nitty little man :lol:  Someone remind me why I took that dude off Ignore again. Fixed 

 

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This struggle will never end until there is a peace settlement- not between Israel and the Arab states, but between Israel and the Palestinians- which means a two state solution. Trump and Kushner made it far worse, particularly by moving the embassy. Now we will pay the price for years to come. But it’s not too late to try again. 

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42 minutes ago, timschochet said:

This struggle will never end until there is a peace settlement- not between Israel and the Arab states, but between Israel and the Palestinians- which means a two state solution. Trump and Kushner made it far worse, particularly by moving the embassy. Now we will pay the price for years to come. But it’s not too late to try again. 

How did they make it worse again?

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1 hour ago, timschochet said:

The rocket attacks are awful but I strongly doubt they’re “massive.”

I also question the “Palestinian troops massing at the border.” What Palestinian troops? They don’t have any military force to speak of. 

Kids with sling shots...they have really good aim..

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13 minutes ago, quick-hands said:

How did they make it worse again?

 He is on a roll.  Just go with it...

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32 minutes ago, quick-hands said:

How did they make it worse again?

In order to negotiate a two state solution the question of  the Old City Jerusalem has to be open to negotiation. Prior to 1967 it was as an international city and it may need to go back to that, similar to Vatican City. That’s why, prior to Trump, we never had our embassy there. By moving it there we basically spit in the face of Palestinian hopes and dreams of an independent state. Yes we made it far worse by that move alone (not to mention our bizarre love affair with the Saudis.) 

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At this point the best alternative might be a 4 state solution: 

1. A state of Israel with its capital in the newer part of Jerusalem, recognized by the Palestinians and all Arab states. 
 

2. Old Jerusalem as an international city, like Vatican City, with respect for and protection of the sacred sites of Christianity, Islam, and Judaism. 

3. An independent Palestinian state of the West Bank with no Israeli settlements. 
 

4. An independent Palestinian state of Gaza with no Israeli settlements. 
 

Combine these with a return to Syria of the Golan Heights and I believe we could have a lasting peace. Finally. 

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When Trump moved the embassy, there were countless warnings of immediate bloodshed that never happened. Now that hostilities have ramped up again, people will actually try and use the embassy as a reason? Priceless. So this recent outbreak is...wait for it....Trump's fault!

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15 minutes ago, jamny said:

When Trump moved the embassy, there were countless warnings of immediate bloodshed that never happened. Now that hostilities have ramped up again, people will actually try and use the embassy as a reason? Priceless. So this recent outbreak is...wait for it....Trump's fault!

The embassy move didn’t help. It was a dreadful idea with no positive aspects to it. Sorry you can’t see that. 
 

This current situation is not on Trump. He did not cause this. But I’m just pointing out that he didn’t help things either. He made it worse. 

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55 minutes ago, timschochet said:

The embassy move didn’t help. It was a dreadful idea with no positive aspects to it. Sorry you can’t see that. 
 

This current situation is not on Trump. He did not cause this. But I’m just pointing out that he didn’t help things either. He made it worse. 

So, MOSTLY Trump's fault?

How many years should we be expecting him to be used as an excuse for everything that goes wrong?  4 years? 10 years?  20?

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11 minutes ago, BladeRunner said:

So, MOSTLY Trump's fault?

How many years should we be expecting him to be used as an excuse for everything that goes wrong?  4 years? 10 years?  20?

Considering Fox News is leaning on "Jimmy Carter 2.0" I'd say forever.

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Posted (edited)
1 minute ago, -fish- said:

Considering Fox News is leaning on "Jimmy Carter 2.0" I'd say forever.

Well, if they are indeed saying that then it's still not the same.  They're not blaming anything on Jimmy Carter like the left is with Trump every time something goes wrong under their watch.

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58 minutes ago, timschochet said:

The embassy move didn’t help. It was a dreadful idea with no positive aspects to it. Sorry you can’t see that. 
 

This current situation is not on Trump. He did not cause this. But I’m just pointing out that he didn’t help things either. He made it worse. 

That is BS.  And i am not a trump voter.  The reason that Hamas has the weapons is due to Iran.  The peace accords during the Trump years was an alliance between the Southern Gulf states (Sunni)  and Israel against the Syria/Iran (Shia).  All the hot spots in the middle east have to do with Iran.  The saudi's fighting in Yemen has nothing to do with Israel.  Iran is the biggest exporter of terrorism in the middle east period every hot spot has something due their involvment.

As for the long term with the Pallestine/Israeli etc issue this area has been fought over for over a thousand years.  The Israel govt has the most powerful military in the region backed up by quite possibly it's own nuclear weapons.  It's not going anywhere.  Does this make every move Israel makes always good?  No.  But someone firing rockets into  civilian areas who are populated with both Jewish and arabs is terrorism plain and simple.  Some will say why is it ok for Isreal to bomb gaza?  Well if someone was shooting rockets at you what would you do?  The IDF has the power to run gaza into the dirt and kill Hamas in gaza but they haven't yet.

Don't know if their will be peace in Middle east ever.  It's been going on for hundreds of years long before Israel came to be a country. Even before America was a country, and certainly before the embassy move.  We should be able to put our embassy anywhere we like in a country as long as we have their permission as essentially it is treated as a foreign land in that country.

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12 minutes ago, NightStalkers said:

That is BS.  And i am not a trump voter.  The reason that Hamas has the weapons is due to Iran.  The peace accords during the Trump years was an alliance between the Southern Gulf states (Sunni)  and Israel against the Syria/Iran (Shia).  All the hot spots in the middle east have to do with Iran.  The saudi's fighting in Yemen has nothing to do with Israel.  Iran is the biggest exporter of terrorism in the middle east period every hot spot has something due their involvment.

As for the long term with the Pallestine/Israeli etc issue this area has been fought over for over a thousand years.  The Israel govt has the most powerful military in the region backed up by quite possibly it's own nuclear weapons.  It's not going anywhere.  Does this make every move Israel makes always good?  No.  But someone firing rockets into  civilian areas who are populated with both Jewish and arabs is terrorism plain and simple.  Some will say why is it ok for Isreal to bomb gaza?  Well if someone was shooting rockets at you what would you do?  The IDF has the power to run gaza into the dirt and kill Hamas in gaza but they haven't yet.

Don't know if their will be peace in Middle east ever.  It's been going on for hundreds of years long before Israel came to be a country. Even before America was a country, and certainly before the embassy move.  We should be able to put our embassy anywhere we like in a country as long as we have their permission as essentially it is treated as a foreign land in that country.

The yet part may change very soon.  Tank trailers are near the gaza border.  May not be the wisest thing to do but how many countries in the world would not react to hundreds of rockets fired into their country.

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13 minutes ago, NightStalkers said:

 but how many countries in the world would not react to hundreds of rockets fired into their country.

You act like this is all unprovoked. It’s not, and your point of view on this entire issue is heavily skewed in one direction. 
And you’re wrong. The source of Hamas’ power isn’t Iran, it’s the Palestinian people of Gaza who support them. And they do because they’re living in misery. There are several authors of that misery: the Palestinians themselves, the Arab countries, and Israel. Israel cannot escape some blame and responsibility here and neither can the United States. 

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3 minutes ago, timschochet said:

You act like this is all unprovoked. It’s not, and your point of view on this entire issue is heavily skewed in one direction. 
And you’re wrong. The source of Hamas’ power isn’t Iran, it’s the Palestinian people of Gaza who support them. And they do because they’re living in misery. There are several authors of that misery: the Palestinians themselves, the Arab countries, and Israel. Israel cannot escape some blame and responsibility here and neither can the United States. 

Wikipedia: Hamas is funded by Iran

"Hamas is a militant and political organization currently in power in the Gaza Strip. According to Mahmoud Abbas, President of the Palestinian National Authority, "Hamas is funded by Iran. It claims it is financed by donations, but the donations are nothing like what it receives from Iran.[6] Iran also supplies Hamas with military weaponry.[7] Technologies provided include Fajr-5, M-75, and M-302 rockets, as well as drones.[8]"

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Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, kodycutter said:

Wikipedia: Hamas is funded by Iran

"Hamas is a militant and political organization currently in power in the Gaza Strip. According to Mahmoud Abbas, President of the Palestinian National Authority, "Hamas is funded by Iran. It claims it is financed by donations, but the donations are nothing like what it receives from Iran.[6] Iran also supplies Hamas with military weaponry.[7] Technologies provided include Fajr-5, M-75, and M-302 rockets, as well as drones.[8]"

Yes that’s where they get their weapons. But if Iran cut them off they’d get them elsewhere. The key here is that they have support of the Palestinian people. That’s the source of their power. That’s what you need to eliminate, not the weapons. 
It amazes me that after our experience in Vietnam, after all the other failures in the third world, we still don’t understand insurgent movements around the world and how to truly fight them. We still think in terms of “what country sends them weapons?” “What military can we attack?” You’d think we’d learn our lesson by now. 

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25 minutes ago, timschochet said:

You act like this is all unprovoked. It’s not, and your point of view on this entire issue is heavily skewed in one direction. 
And you’re wrong. The source of Hamas’ power isn’t Iran, it’s the Palestinian people of Gaza who support them. And they do because they’re living in misery. There are several authors of that misery: the Palestinians themselves, the Arab countries, and Israel. Israel cannot escape some blame and responsibility here and neither can the United States. 

Both sides have done things to be blamed.  Iran however is the one who supplies the weapons to Gaza which has been proved many times over.  Even the EU countries have pointed to Iran as supplying  weapons to Hamas.  And you are wrong Hamas is nothing without weapons, you don't fight tanks and jets without weapons.

If the Palestinian's wanted to succeed they need to do one of 2 things. Either confront Israel militarily and fight or do what the Civil rights leaders did in the 50 and 60's.  Peaceful not violent protests.  Whenever you grab a gun or any weapon to fight someone you can't win the peaceful aspect.  Gaza will never overcome Israel militarily.  

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26 minutes ago, timschochet said:

Yes that’s where they get their weapons. But if Iran cut them off they’d get them elsewhere. The key here is that they have support of the Palestinian people. That’s the source of their power. That’s what you need to eliminate, not the weapons. 
It amazes me that after our experience in Vietnam, after all the other failures in the third world, we still don’t understand insurgent movements around the world and how to truly fight them. We still think in terms of “what country sends them weapons?” “What military can we attack?” You’d think we’d learn our lesson by now. 

You are correct and wrong at the same time.  Vietnam used military and paramilitary weapons to fight.  So where does the Palestinians get the money for the weapons?  Iran right now.  The Sunni's i don't think are helping Iran right now.  china and USSR supplied Vietnam.  We funded Afghanistan against USSR.  What you are right about is the idea that you can't always fix everything with guns.  But allowing yourself to get bombed is not an answer either.  Neither is Israel pushing settlements into some Palestinian lands.  Like i said blame goes both ways, but Iran is probably the biggest terrorist supporter in the ME right now.

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5 hours ago, [icon] said:

Over 480 Rockets fired into Israel from the Gaza Strip as of a couple hours ago. Enough that the Iron Dome couldn't keep up. More than one news outlet referred to it as "massive". 

Hamas... troops...soldiers....whatever. Dudes with guns are reportedly amassing at the border.

Lord you're a nitty little man :lol:  Someone remind me why I took that dude off Ignore again. Fixed 

 

600 and counting. 100 in just the last hour or so in the middle of the night. And it is Hamas and other terrorist groups the let set up in the Gaza Strip. Israeli planes trying to target key launch spots and Hamas head quarters. 

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18 minutes ago, NightStalkers said:

You are correct and wrong at the same time.  Vietnam used military and paramilitary weapons to fight.  So where does the Palestinians get the money for the weapons?  Iran right now.  The Sunni's i don't think are helping Iran right now.  china and USSR supplied Vietnam.  We funded Afghanistan against USSR.  What you are right about is the idea that you can't always fix everything with guns.  But allowing yourself to get bombed is not an answer either.  Neither is Israel pushing settlements into some Palestinian lands.  Like i said blame goes both ways, but Iran is probably the biggest terrorist supporter in the ME right now.

Well we disagree about the source of the problem , and about what is to be done in the long run. Here’s what we can agree on right now I think: Hamas is doing bad things here, they are terrible people, and Israel has no choice but to try and crush them at the moment. Once the current threat has been dealt with, then we can get back to the bigger issues. 

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2 hours ago, BladeRunner said:

So, MOSTLY Trump's fault?

How many years should we be expecting him to be used as an excuse for everything that goes wrong?  4 years? 10 years?  20?

If we’re using it’s Obama or the Clinton’s fault from the right as the baseline I’d say were in for a long haul.  

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11 minutes ago, timschochet said:

Well we disagree about the source of the problem , and about what is to be done in the long run. Here’s what we can agree on right now I think: Hamas is doing bad things here, they are terrible people, and Israel has no choice but to try and crush them at the moment. Once the current threat has been dealt with, then we can get back to the bigger issues. 

The real problem is do they want peace.  People have been fighting over that area for centuries. and that includes jews, arabs etc....

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5 hours ago, timschochet said:

This struggle will never end until there is a peace settlement- not between Israel and the Arab states, but between Israel and the Palestinians- which means a two state solution. Trump and Kushner made it far worse, particularly by moving the embassy. Now we will pay the price for years to come. But it’s not too late to try again. 

:lmao:  Of course

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1 hour ago, timschochet said:

You act like this is all unprovoked. It’s not, and your point of view on this entire issue is heavily skewed in one direction
And you’re wrong. The source of Hamas’ power isn’t Iran, it’s the Palestinian people of Gaza who support them. And they do because they’re living in misery. There are several authors of that misery: the Palestinians themselves, the Arab countries, and Israel. Israel cannot escape some blame and responsibility here and neither can the United States. 

So are almost 200K posts of yours.  What's your point?

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2 minutes ago, NightStalkers said:

The real problem is do they want peace.  People have been fighting over that area for centuries. and that includes jews, arabs etc....

People want peace generally.  Individuals who don't want peace usually don't last that long.  Ideology, paticularly through generations is the big problem.

I certainly don't blame the Palestineans for feeling like they had their property taken out from under them.  I certainly don't blame Israel for their military buildup and the idea that they as a people aren't going to be pushed to the brink of extinction again.

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FWIW: 

"Reports say Resistance fighters have attempted to enter #Israel’s Nachal Oz military base and are having armed combat with Israeli soldiers."

https://twitter.com/aobpsf/status/1392290477391634432?s=21

Lots of images of Palestinian flags being raised in Israel. 

This is all fun and games until more Iran backed militias jump in and we are forced into the fight.
 

Israel may be about to get smacked good. 

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