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Israel Under Attack : Iron Dome Failing under onslaught of rockets


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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, quick-hands said:

How about giving  your solution.    Id be interested on that.

In @timschochet defense, there isn't one.  As I've said many times, this isn't just Israel vs. Palestine.  Lots of nations and organizations around the region support Palestine as a thorn in Israel's side and want the chaos to continue and are actively making sure it does.  Israel is placed in a catch-22 right now and there is no easy way through even the current events, much less the hope of long term peace.

Edited by Jayrod
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2 minutes ago, Jayrod said:

In @timschochet defense, there isn't one.  As I've said many times, this isn't just Israel vs. Palestine.  Lot's of nations and organizations around the region support Palestine as a thorn in Israel's side and want the chaos to continue and are actively making sure it does.  Israel is placed in a catch-22 right now and there is no easy way through even the current events, much less the hope of long term peace.

When you say lots.   You mean Iran.

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19 hours ago, -fish- said:

The dehumanization of a population by comparing them to animals is a hallmark of a genocide.   You should try going to the Holocaust Museum sometime.  Your posts in here are frankly disgusting.  

Dehumanization

More on dehumanization

You throw around "anti-Semite" and then argue with strategies taken from Rosenberg and Goebbels.  

:rolleyes:

Give me a break.  It was a very common metaphor used to indicate the speed at which their population is reproducing and you know it.  I was actually checking in to see if you had a legit response to my posts, but then come back to this weak-minded attempt at false equivalency.  Let me know if you want to have a real discussion that isn't filled with intellectual dishonesty.

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4 minutes ago, Jayrod said:

:rolleyes:

Give me a break.  It was a very common metaphor used to indicate the speed at which their population is reproducing and you know it.  I was actually checking in to see if you had a legit response to my posts, but then come back to this weak-minded attempt at false equivalency.  Let me know if you want to have a real discussion that isn't filled with intellectual dishonesty.

And palastinians actually teach there children that jews arent even human.   Pigs, dogs, vermin etc etc etc

The grand mufti admired hitler very much

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4 hours ago, quick-hands said:

How about giving  your solution.    Id be interested on that.

I liked the one on the West Wing. But I would modify it a bit: 

1. There needs to be not one state of Palestine, but two, because Gaza and the West Bank are not contiguous. But the tough part for this to happen is (a) Israel has to give up all of its settlements in these areas- not 80%, not 90%, but all. And the Palestinians have to give up their “right of return to Israel demand.” 
 

2. Both sides have to give up their claims to Jerusalem. Jerusalem (or at least the old part) must become an international city again along the lines of the Vatican, with respect for the holy shrines of Islam, Judaism, and Christianity. All are welcome to visit, none who are not already there are welcome to stay. 
 

These aren’t easy solutions but they are doable. They require a forceful hand from the United States and an end to extremism on both sides. 

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2 minutes ago, quick-hands said:

When you say lots.   You mean Iran.

They're the most vocal, but there are like 25 nations that have never even recognized Israel as a country and most won't accept their passports.  Pakistan has been fairly hostile towards them as has almost all of the Arabian peninsula.  And besides Hamas in Gaza, there is Hezbollah in Lebanon with the expressed intent of eliminating Israel from existence.

 

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3 minutes ago, timschochet said:

I liked the one on the West Wing. But I would modify it a bit: 

1. There needs to be not one state of Palestine, but two, because Gaza and the West Bank are not contiguous. But the tough part for this to happen is (a) Israel has to give up all of its settlements in these areas- not 80%, not 90%, but all. And the Palestinians have to give up their “right of return to Israel demand.” 
 

2. Both sides have to give up their claims to Jerusalem. Jerusalem (or at least the old part) must become an international city again along the lines of the Vatican, with respect for the holy shrines of Islam, Judaism, and Christianity. All are welcome to visit, none who are not already there are welcome to stay. 
 

These aren’t easy solutions but they are doable. They require a forceful hand from the United States and an end to extremism on both sides. 

I think the only way for this to happen would be a war that Israel loses badly.  If they aren't made to stop expanding and forced to retract, they will never do it voluntarily.  If that happened, I'd expect that Palestine would be extremely punitive in the aftermath and would become even more heavy handed over the Jews than the Jews have been to Muslims. 

And who would then be put in charge of security over Jerusalem?  The UN?  If it is the US or any other European nation they will not be accepted and anything other than complete Muslim control will likely be rejected at some point.

Like I said before, there is no solution.  It is going to continue to play out like it always has for the rest of time.

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Posted (edited)
46 minutes ago, Jayrod said:

I think the only way for this to happen would be a war that Israel loses badly.  If they aren't made to stop expanding and forced to retract, they will never do it voluntarily.  If that happened, I'd expect that Palestine would be extremely punitive in the aftermath and would become even more heavy handed over the Jews than the Jews have been to Muslims. 

And who would then be put in charge of security over Jerusalem?  The UN?  If it is the US or any other European nation they will not be accepted and anything other than complete Muslim control will likely be rejected at some point.

Like I said before, there is no solution.  It is going to continue to play out like it always has for the rest of time.

Punishing?  They will kill every isreali.   Palistinians dont want peace.

But the jews would never lose like that.   They are to advanced.

 

The palastinians wouldnt accept the west wing plan.

Edited by quick-hands
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Great news!  I'm not optimistic that anything will change in the near term, but at least the killing will stop.

Of course Hamas is claiming victory.  :rolleyes:

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2 hours ago, Jayrod said:

Great news!  I'm not optimistic that anything will change in the near term, but at least the killing will stop.

Of course Hamas is claiming victory.  :rolleyes:

Didn't work for Trump....won't work for them. 

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30 minutes ago, timschochet said:

Powerful opinion piece by novelist Michael Chabon, urging President Biden to condemn Israel’s treatment of the Palestinians: 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2021/05/20/michael-chabon-israel-palestinians-biden-policy/

I don’t think anyone could call Michael Chabon an anti-Semite....

Behind a paywall, can't access.

I'm assuming he is Jewish and calls this a genocide or something?

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Posted (edited)

Jayrod doing the Lord's work in here despite an unfortunate turn of phrase, which wouldn't have been "rabbits" if it was genocidal in nature but something along the lines of "rats" or "vermin." Aside from that, my only quibble is that we've skipped over Arafat and the PLO and the Palestianians and their "Peace Prize" winning terrorist acts up to and including in Munich at the 1972 Olympics when the PLO took credit for killing Israeli athletes in "protest" about their treatment on the disputed territories from 1948. Long memories indeed.

They're gone. They're all gone.

I seriously don't see how anyone can know that they hide munitions factories in schools and present a cogent counterargument to anything regarding the situation in an indignant manner, up to and including calling this "genocide." Surely that cannot be serious. Such puffery.

I've read Bernard Lewis's The Crisis Of Islam twice over. It seems to me the main issue is with the Islamic theocratic absolutism regarding religion and states, and they are massively responsible for their side of this conflict just as Israel's self-defense claims make them responsible also. Is this a function of both colonialism and international organizations displacing Palestinians? Maybe so, but it's what we've got. This has been a problem since right after WWI, when it became fashionable for young Arabs to go study in secularized Western countries, only instead of bringing back the peace and tolerance of their systems, they brought back a tribalism, absolutism, and hate rooted in academia's identity politics and disbelief in God.

Just remember one thing when you see the usual suspects crying out over the airwaves: Anything the left can do to destabilize order in the West, so it will do. Anything radical Islamists can do to destabilize order, they will also. It makes the two sides perfect for each other, and is why you see so much support for Palestine from Marxist-influenced or even just regular left-wing institutions.

Domestically, Democrats need to tread a fine line lest they alienate their Antifa, Palestine-loving left and their Jewish voter bloc that they still receive in droves for some reason.

Edited by rockaction
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7 hours ago, Jayrod said:

Behind a paywall, can't access.

I'm assuming he is Jewish and calls this a genocide or something?

He’s Jewish. Doesn’t call it a genocide (it isn’t) but says that the occupation is wrong, and needs to be condemned. Points out why it’s wrong (limited access to basic human needs like water, electricity, housing, medical, etc.Inability to visit families or travel. Basically miserable conditions and under constant guard.) 

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, rockaction said:

Jayrod doing the Lord's work in here despite an unfortunate turn of phrase, which wouldn't have been "rabbits" if it was genocidal in nature but something along the lines of "rats" or "vermin." Aside from that, my only quibble is that we've skipped over Arafat and the PLO and the Palestianians and their "Peace Prize" winning terrorist acts up to and including in Munich at the 1972 Olympics when the PLO took credit for killing Israeli athletes in "protest" about their treatment on the disputed territories from 1948. Long memories indeed.

They're gone. They're all gone.

I seriously don't see how anyone can know that they hide munitions factories in schools and present a cogent counterargument to anything regarding the situation in an indignant manner, up to and including calling this "genocide." Surely that cannot be serious. Such puffery.

I've read Bernard Lewis's The Crisis Of Islam twice over. It seems to me the main issue is with the Islamic theocratic absolutism regarding religion and states, and they are massively responsible for their side of this conflict just as Israel's self-defense claims make them responsible also. Is this a function of both colonialism and international organizations displacing Palestinians? Maybe so, but it's what we've got. This has been a problem since right after WWI, when it became fashionable for young Arabs to go study in secularized Western countries, only instead of bringing back the peace and tolerance of their systems, they brought back a tribalism, absolutism, and hate rooted in academia's identity politics and disbelief in God.

Just remember one thing when you see the usual suspects crying out over the airwaves: Anything the left can do to destabilize order in the West, so it will do. Anything radical Islamists can do to destabilize order, they will also. It makes the two sides perfect for each other, and is why you see so much support for Palestine from Marxist-influenced or even just regular left-wing institutions.

Domestically, Democrats need to tread a fine line lest they alienate their Antifa, Palestine-loving left and their Jewish voter bloc that they still receive in droves for some reason.

Nothing that you’ve written here is particularly incorrect but you’re also ignoring a whole other side to this story. Yes the Palestinians are mostly extremist, radical, murderous. But such behavior doesn’t just magically appear or grow on trees. They live a miserable, trapped existence. Some of that is their own fault, and some of that is the fault of their fellow Arabs.

But a significant part of the fault belongs to Israel, and specifically to the right in Israel, which under first Sharon and now Netanyahu has become extreme themselves. Israel is NOT behaving well, and you can’t justify it by noting how badly the Palestinians are acting. So no, as much as I like @Jayrod he is NOT doing the Lord’s work in here. He is offering a one sided POV which doesn’t, IMO, get to the root of the matter. 

Edited by timschochet
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1 minute ago, timschochet said:

Nothing that you’ve written here is particularly incorrect but you’re also ignoring a whole other side to this story. Yes the Palestinians are mostly extremist, radical, murderous. But such behavior doesn’t just magically appear or grow on trees. They live a miserable, trapped existence. Some of that is their own fault, and some of that is the fault of their fellow Arabs.

But a significant part of the fault belongs to Israel, and specifically to the right in Israel, which under first Sharon and now Netanyahu has become extreme themselves. Israel is NOT behaving well, and you can’t justify it by noting how badly the Palestinians are acting. So no, as much as I like @Jayrod he is NOT doing the Lord’s work in here. He is offering a one sided POV which doesn’t, IMO, get to the root of the matter. 

You mean the side that adorns their kindergartens with images of dead Israelis being blown to bits by suicide bombers isn't primarily to blame? That their adherence to a barbaric form of their own religion isn't to blame? That aggrieved side?

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13 minutes ago, rockaction said:

You mean the side that adorns their kindergartens with images of dead Israelis being blown to bits by suicide bombers isn't primarily to blame? That their adherence to a barbaric form of their own religion isn't to blame? That aggrieved side?

I mean that while it’s very important to point these things out (and the left largely ignores them), they shouldn’t be used to justify or ignore bad behavior by the Israelis. 

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23 minutes ago, timschochet said:

. Yes the Palestinians are mostly extremist, radical, murderous. But such behavior doesn’t just magically appear or grow on trees.  

Amin al-husseini set the stage.   They hated jews before isreal existed.

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1 minute ago, quick-hands said:

Amin al-husseini set the stage.   They hated jews before isreal existed.

Sure, but even that Nazi loving Mufti has historical context. His particular hatred of Jews was tied to his hatred of the British, which was a result of the Sykes-Picot agreement. He was a nationalist and a very evil man. 

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8 minutes ago, timschochet said:

I mean that while it’s very important to point these things out (and the left largely ignores them), they shouldn’t be used to justify or ignore bad behavior by the Israelis. 

No, it really shouldn't be used to justify or ignore bad behavior by the Israelis. But at some point, there are sides to be chosen. Working toward a two-state solution like you expressed has given rise to only more terror. If it were merely a two-state solution the Palestinians wanted, we might have been done yesterday. But much like our old friend Ren on these boards, Palestine wants a one-state democracy, effectively giving themselves control over the land. We should indeed be equitable about how we treat the two sides, up to and including the process for peace between them. The problem is that Palestine, consistently led by terrorist organizations, has never bargained in good faith, won't bargain in good faith, and will never bargain in good faith. At this point, it behooves us as a country to back our allies and back democratic norms in the region. Anything less is an admission of defeat, anything less emboldens the worst in our enemies.

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It is also crazily odd, as one may note, that the defense of Israel has become a default conservative position. Were it always this way, we might have seen real progress in the eighties. But the right in this country had hidden  -- underneath a veneer of tolerance -- a real anti-Semitism for so long that this was impossible for Reagan to do. Israel's roots lay with the Democratic Party, which makes this a real domestic conundrum. AOC and Omar are disasters for the DNC and other Jewish liberals in this respect.

The domestic angle of American politicians should be discussed, too, is all I'm saying here.

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2 minutes ago, rockaction said:

No, it really shouldn't be used to justify or ignore bad behavior by the Israelis. But at some point, there are sides to be chosen. Working toward a two-state solution like you expressed has given rise to only more terror. If it were merely a two-state solution the Palestinians wanted, we might have been done yesterday. But much like our old friend Ren on these boards, Palestine wants a one-state democracy, effectively giving themselves control over the land. We should indeed be equitable about how we treat the two sides, up to and including the process for peace between them. The problem is that Palestine, consistently led by terrorist organizations, has never bargained in good faith, won't bargain in good faith, and will never bargain in good faith. At this point, it behooves us as a country to back our allies and back democratic norms in the region. Anything less is an admission of defeat, anything less emboldens the worst in our enemies.

Actually I’m in favor of a 4 state solution, as convoluted as that sounds to write- please see my earlier post on the subject. 

Apart from that you make good points as always. Rest assured that if push comes to shove I am on the side of Israel- no matter how badly they behave at times, their opponents have been far far worse. But that doesn’t mean we should ignore their actions. Sometimes it reminds me of when I read about the frustration that JFK felt with the Diem regime in Vietnam- we knew how murderous (and frankly evil) the North Vietnamese were, we knew which side we had to be on, but couldn’t Diem and his brother behave just a little better? Apparently they couldn’t. 

As for the future, I’m more optimistic than you are. I believe that, despite the evil that is Hamas and Hezbollah, a peaceful solution can be achieved. 

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2 minutes ago, timschochet said:

Actually I’m in favor of a 4 state solution, as convoluted as that sounds to write- please see my earlier post on the subject.

As for the future, I’m more optimistic than you are. I believe that, despite the evil that is Hamas and Hezbollah, a peaceful solution can be achieved. 

I'll check it out. Four states, huh? Is this like Biden's three-state Iraq solution?

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5 minutes ago, rockaction said:

It is also crazily odd, as one may note, that the defense of Israel has become a default conservative position. Were it always this way, we might have seen real progress in the eighties. But the right in this country had hidden  -- underneath a veneer of tolerance -- a real anti-Semitism for so long that this was impossible for Reagan to do. Israel's roots lay with the Democratic Party, which makes this a real domestic conundrum. AOC and Omar are disasters for the DNC and other Jewish liberals in this respect.

The domestic angle of American politicians should be discussed, too, is all I'm saying here.

It’s absolutely fascinating to me. 
Religion plays a major role in this. Remember that most of the Zionists who formed the state of Israel were liberal secularists like Golda Meir and David Ben Gurion- thus their natural allies in the USA were Democrats. Now however, for the past 3 decades Israel has largely been governed by right wing religionists, whose natural allies here are Christian conservatives. 

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1 minute ago, rockaction said:

I'll check it out. Four states, huh? Is this like Biden's three-state Iraq solution?

In a way- I liked that solution too BTW. 
 

Basically: 

1. Israel

2. Gaza 

3. West Bank. 

4. Jerusalem City (like Vatican City.) 

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1 minute ago, timschochet said:

It’s absolutely fascinating to me. 
Religion plays a major role in this. Remember that most of the Zionists who formed the state of Israel were liberal secularists like Golda Meir and David Ben Gurion- thus their natural allies in the USA were Democrats. Now however, for the past 3 decades Israel has largely been governed by right wing religionists, whose natural allies here are Christian conservatives. 

It's been fascinating to me since the nineties when I worked in D.C. and realized that two of my best friends who were conservative were Jewish and supported Israel each in their own respective way. (One was from the Bay Area, where Palestine love abounds in no small form or sentiment. He was not so much pro-Israel as appalled by those sort of ultra leftist feelings that tend to ally themselves with Palestine. Very interesting dude.)

Anyway, the neocons where I worked were largely Jewish, and it created a weird tension in the place because at this conservative think tank were all these former Trotskyites (all the older neoconservatives were) who were born and bred New York City Jewish liberals, and they certainly did not forget the natural alliance between them and the Democratic Party of 1948. That party, they felt, left them behind in '68 never to come back, so they joined with the Republicans, who were at least reliably anti-Soviet. I could go on forever, and the subject is fascinating, but so rife with minefields for everybody, including me, who is likely of Jewish descent but was born and raised Catholic.

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7 minutes ago, timschochet said:

In a way- I liked that solution too BTW. 
 

Basically: 

1. Israel

2. Gaza 

3. West Bank. 

4. Jerusalem City (like Vatican City.) 

And before anyone says this could never happen, just remember that Tim Tebow is now a tight end. 

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5 minutes ago, timschochet said:

In a way- I liked that solution too BTW. 
 

Basically: 

1. Israel

2. Gaza 

3. West Bank. 

4. Jerusalem City (like Vatican City.) 

I did read that. I'm sorry, I forgot for a moment. Yeah, I don't think either side is going to accept Jerusalem as not their own. That's the feeling I get. To wit about the two friends above: One, upon hearing that our Northeastern born and raised sort of secular friend was going to live in Jerusalem felt almost horror. "What, no Tel Aviv? My God man, you know yourself (my friend is a partier). They stop, every evening on Sat. at sundown. And then nothing happens for a day and a half, man. Nothing!"

Watching the dynamic of those two was something else.

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42 minutes ago, timschochet said:

Sure, but even that Nazi loving Mufti has historical context. His particular hatred of Jews was tied to his hatred of the British, which was a result of the Sykes-Picot agreement. He was a nationalist and a very evil man. 

And his hatred is still infecting the palastinieans thru hamas 

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2 hours ago, timschochet said:

Nothing that you’ve written here is particularly incorrect but you’re also ignoring a whole other side to this story. Yes the Palestinians are mostly extremist, radical, murderous. But such behavior doesn’t just magically appear or grow on trees. They live a miserable, trapped existence. Some of that is their own fault, and some of that is the fault of their fellow Arabs.

But a significant part of the fault belongs to Israel, and specifically to the right in Israel, which under first Sharon and now Netanyahu has become extreme themselves. Israel is NOT behaving well, and you can’t justify it by noting how badly the Palestinians are acting. So no, as much as I like @Jayrod he is NOT doing the Lord’s work in here. He is offering a one sided POV which doesn’t, IMO, get to the root of the matter. 

I'm offering a one sided point of view because I made the mistake of going to Twitter for news updates on the situation and observed the absolute bombardment of anti-Israeli sentiment.  It was like an angry mob of Muslims was released onto the internet from Pakistan to Morocco and all I could find was ridiculous accusations and rhetoric about the evil Apartheid-regime committing genocide.  They went after Wonder Woman for Pete's sake because she dared to express sympathy for her home country!

Then I came in here and saw the same thing and decided to take on the one or two people in this thread spouting the same nonsense about genocide instead of attempting to reason with an angry mob on twitter (which I tried for a couple of hours one night).

I'm not necessarily pro-Israel, but I see them very much painted into a corner where they either let this evil fester and continue to threaten their very existence or they fight back with their superior capabilities and be labelled a bully by the world who can't see past the last 5 minutes of events.  And maybe as a middle-aged white conservative male, I sympathize with their plight a bit.  I feel like the world has gone haywire in catering to every minority and special-interest group and believing anyone who objects to any of it to be a racist or bigot or homophobe.  We have swung the pendulum too far in our society and now many in our country are literally siding with terrorists over a democratic nation and joining in with false accusations.

Israeli Jews and Palestinian Muslims are both on a mission to control Jerusalem (mainly the temple mount) outright.  Israel is winning that specific fight and the Muslim world is freaking out over it and decided to start a war over it.  The rest is really just noise all centered around that specific 36 acre pot of land.  Gaza specifically isn't that special to either group...its just where the battle line is currently drawn.  Most unfortunate is the large swath of moderate, non-extremists stuck in the middle and suffering during this fight...especially those on the side that is losing.

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33 minutes ago, Jayrod said:

I'm offering a one sided point of view because I made the mistake of going to Twitter for news updates on the situation and observed the absolute bombardment of anti-Israeli sentiment.  It was like an angry mob of Muslims was released onto the internet from Pakistan to Morocco and all I could find was ridiculous accusations and rhetoric about the evil Apartheid-regime committing genocide.  They went after Wonder Woman for Pete's sake because she dared to express sympathy for her home country!

Then I came in here and saw the same thing and decided to take on the one or two people in this thread spouting the same nonsense about genocide instead of attempting to reason with an angry mob on twitter (which I tried for a couple of hours one night).

I'm not necessarily pro-Israel, but I see them very much painted into a corner where they either let this evil fester and continue to threaten their very existence or they fight back with their superior capabilities and be labelled a bully by the world who can't see past the last 5 minutes of events.  And maybe as a middle-aged white conservative male, I sympathize with their plight a bit.  I feel like the world has gone haywire in catering to every minority and special-interest group and believing anyone who objects to any of it to be a racist or bigot or homophobe.  We have swung the pendulum too far in our society and now many in our country are literally siding with terrorists over a democratic nation and joining in with false accusations.

Israeli Jews and Palestinian Muslims are both on a mission to control Jerusalem (mainly the temple mount) outright.  Israel is winning that specific fight and the Muslim world is freaking out over it and decided to start a war over it.  The rest is really just noise all centered around that specific 36 acre pot of land.  Gaza specifically isn't that special to either group...its just where the battle line is currently drawn.  Most unfortunate is the large swath of moderate, non-extremists stuck in the middle and suffering during this fight...especially those on the side that is losing.

There is no doubt that the world, and the left in particular, is anti-Israel. Some of this is based on anti-semitism. Some of it is based on Israel behaving unjustly, though, as many people have correctly pointed out, why such intense focus on this one tiny country when so many other countries behave even worse? Why not focus on how China treats Tibetans, or Turkey treats Kurds, or Russia treats Chechens, or dozens of other examples I could offer that are as bad or worse as how Israel treats Palestinians? 
 

The answer is that Israel is perceived by the world, and the left, as one of the last examples of western colonialism. Basically the Israelis are representative of all of the awful behavior that white Europeans have perpetrated on non European cultures. Given the history of Zionism, this has got to be one of the greatest ironies of all time. But it’s true nonetheless. 

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40 minutes ago, crackattack said:

Certain Democrats own the rise in violence towards Jewish citizens. Just like Trump had to own his rhetoric towards Asians and Hispanics.

If they are using anti-Semitic tropes, then you’re correct. If they’re simply criticizing Israel, no matter how harshly, then no. 

But I’m glad you acknowledge what Trump did. 

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1 hour ago, timschochet said:

There is no doubt that the world, and the left in particular, is anti-Israel. Some of this is based on anti-semitism. Some of it is based on Israel behaving unjustly, though, as many people have correctly pointed out, why such intense focus on this one tiny country when so many other countries behave even worse? Why not focus on how China treats Tibetans, or Turkey treats Kurds, or Russia treats Chechens, or dozens of other examples I could offer that are as bad or worse as how Israel treats Palestinians? 
 

The answer is that Israel is perceived by the world, and the left, as one of the last examples of western colonialism. Basically the Israelis are representative of all of the awful behavior that white Europeans have perpetrated on non European cultures. Given the history of Zionism, this has got to be one of the greatest ironies of all time. But it’s true nonetheless. 

Kind of ironic is that the existence of Israel as a nation and their right to settle in the region was basically a form of reparations for the Jews.

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1 hour ago, timschochet said:

If they are using anti-Semitic tropes, then you’re correct. If they’re simply criticizing Israel, no matter how harshly, then no. 

But I’m glad you acknowledge what Trump did. 

It's hard to take serious criticism by certain democrats considering their past antisemitic comments. Didn't Democratic leaders in the House condemn a few of their members like a year ago for antisemitic tropes? We all know how certain democrats feel towards Israel. We've seen it. We've heard them. And we all know what they've said. They haven't changed their opinions (right or wrong) overnight.

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8 hours ago, timschochet said:

There is no doubt that the world, and the left in particular, is anti-Israel. Some of this is based on anti-semitism. Some of it is based on Israel behaving unjustly, though, as many people have correctly pointed out, why such intense focus on this one tiny country when so many other countries behave even worse? Why not focus on how China treats Tibetans, or Turkey treats Kurds, or Russia treats Chechens, or dozens of other examples I could offer that are as bad or worse as how Israel treats Palestinians? 
 

The answer is that Israel is perceived by the world, and the left, as one of the last examples of western colonialism. Basically the Israelis are representative of all of the awful behavior that white Europeans have perpetrated on non European cultures. Given the history of Zionism, this has got to be one of the greatest ironies of all time. But it’s true nonetheless. 

the primary difference that you're ignoring is that these are our allies.  We are tacitly, if not actively, supporting these crimes against humanity through military and financial support.  The US should have leverage to address some of the ongoing human rights violations, but any politician who wants to acknowledge that Palestinians are entitled to basic human rights and freedoms is branded an anti-Semite.   

We pay lip service to these violations when ot comes to China or North Korea but avert our eyes when it is our ally.

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12 minutes ago, -fish- said:

the primary difference that you're ignoring is that these are our allies.  We are tacitly, if not actively, supporting these crimes against humanity through military and financial support.  The US should have leverage to address some of the ongoing human rights violations, but any politician who wants to acknowledge that Palestinians are entitled to basic human rights and freedoms is branded an anti-Semite.   

We pay lip service to these violations when ot comes to China or North Korea but avert our eyes when it is our ally.

I don’t ignore it at all. I think you’re absolutely right, 

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10 minutes ago, -fish- said:

the primary difference that you're ignoring is that these are our allies.  We are tacitly, if not actively, supporting these crimes against humanity through military and financial support.  The US should have leverage to address some of the ongoing human rights violations, but any politician who wants to acknowledge that Palestinians are entitled to basic human rights and freedoms is branded an anti-Semite.   

We pay lip service to these violations when ot comes to China or North Korea but avert our eyes when it is our ally.

Saudi Arabia are our allies and we put diplomatic pressure on them. It could be that maybe there is a distinction between the "basic human rights" that Palestinians say they are trying to achieve and the actual conditions they desire. To wit: It seems odd that basic human rights are agitated for by blowing up civilian buses with trained suicide bombers.

Sounds about right to me. It's as simple as this: They want the Jews out of Israel. It's not about human rights at all. It's a war, and they use Western liberal guilt and tolerance in some respects, in other respects they ally with the those elements of the left who seek the destruction of Western capitalism. It's a very postmodern dynamic the Palestinians have going on. They may be the most vile culture on earth that is portrayed sympathetically by the media.

Conflating Israel with China and North Korea is something to behold. That's quite the impressive feat you've pulled off.

China, N. Korea, Israel.

Of course! How could I have not seen that grouping?

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my take:  it's hard to negotiate with a group doing the negotiations that does not want peace but rather the complete annihilation  of an entire people(Jews).

kinda throws a wrench into the whole thing.  

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