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Israel Under Attack : Iron Dome Failing under onslaught of rockets


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Who would have thought that a light thread about a non-threatening topic like Middle Eastern socio-political-military-religiosity focusing on Israel and the Palestinians would produce some of the best conversation in the forum? And not feature endless slap-fights, gotchas and right-left bickering?

 @Jayrodhas been spectacular with his posts here. I've learned a lot, as my knowledge of this subject was just slightly above nil. Thanks, everyone, great contributions!

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3 hours ago, -fish- said:

the primary difference that you're ignoring is that these are our allies.  We are tacitly, if not actively, supporting these crimes against humanity through military and financial support.  The US should have leverage to address some of the ongoing human rights violations, but any politician who wants to acknowledge that Palestinians are entitled to basic human rights and freedoms is branded an anti-Semite.   

We pay lip service to these violations when ot comes to China or North Korea but avert our eyes when it is our ally.

We do, and our allies in the Saudis are much more brutal and repressive than the Israelis.

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I thought this was a well done article on life in the West Bank and how Israeli policies are making the situation worse. I do wish there was a bit more balance around why checkpoints are necessary but tearing down someone’s home is just going to make a bad situation worse and is not designed to protect Israeli citizens. 
 

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/22/us/israel-palestinian-jerusalem.html?action=click&module=Spotlight&pgtype=Homepage

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This article points out some interesting issues that many people likely aren't considering (or are ignoring) in this whole thing.

Palestine basically doesn't have a fully functioning government and their most supported/powerful group is a terrorist organization (Hamas) whose stated purpose is to destroy Israel, drive out or kill the Jews, and take over the entire region as a Muslim state.  It seemed like a lot of anti-Israel or pro-Palestinian sentiment tried to excuse or ignore Hamas, yet they are the actual ruling government of the Gaza strip and more powerful than the government of the West Bank, the Palestinian Authority.

Is this Israel's fault?  Somewhat in that they are also very aggressive in their settlement plans and heavy handed in the exercising of authority.  But it is also very indicative of the overall sentiment of the Arab people in the region since Jews first arrived in the wake of WWI.  If Israel was gentler with the Arab population, I honestly don't know if the overall sentiment would be much different.  Hamas and extremists would still exist and would still be attempting to take over and drive out the Jews.  They wouldn't have as much support, but I doubt they would cease to exist just because Israel was nicer to them.

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9 minutes ago, Jayrod said:

This article points out some interesting issues that many people likely aren't considering (or are ignoring) in this whole thing.

Palestine basically doesn't have a fully functioning government and their most supported/powerful group is a terrorist organization (Hamas) whose stated purpose is to destroy Israel, drive out or kill the Jews, and take over the entire region as a Muslim state.  It seemed like a lot of anti-Israel or pro-Palestinian sentiment tried to excuse or ignore Hamas, yet they are the actual ruling government of the Gaza strip and more powerful than the government of the West Bank, the Palestinian Authority.

Is this Israel's fault?  Somewhat in that they are also very aggressive in their settlement plans and heavy handed in the exercising of authority.  But it is also very indicative of the overall sentiment of the Arab people in the region since Jews first arrived in the wake of WWI.  If Israel was gentler with the Arab population, I honestly don't know if the overall sentiment would be much different.  Hamas and extremists would still exist and would still be attempting to take over and drive out the Jews.  They wouldn't have as much support, but I doubt they would cease to exist just because Israel was nicer to them.

The Palestinian attitude towards Israel has not been as rigid over the years as you’re claiming. There have been several peace movements and other attempts to reach a solution that would leave Israel intact. Right now, unfortunately, Gaza is governed by an evil, extremist group of terrorist thugs. But Israel is certainly at least partially to blame for that. 

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7 hours ago, Jayrod said:

This article points out some interesting issues that many people likely aren't considering (or are ignoring) in this whole thing.

Palestine basically doesn't have a fully functioning government and their most supported/powerful group is a terrorist organization (Hamas) whose stated purpose is to destroy Israel, drive out or kill the Jews, and take over the entire region as a Muslim state.  It seemed like a lot of anti-Israel or pro-Palestinian sentiment tried to excuse or ignore Hamas, yet they are the actual ruling government of the Gaza strip and more powerful than the government of the West Bank, the Palestinian Authority.

Is this Israel's fault?  Somewhat in that they are also very aggressive in their settlement plans and heavy handed in the exercising of authority.  But it is also very indicative of the overall sentiment of the Arab people in the region since Jews first arrived in the wake of WWI.  If Israel was gentler with the Arab population, I honestly don't know if the overall sentiment would be much different.  Hamas and extremists would still exist and would still be attempting to take over and drive out the Jews.  They wouldn't have as much support, but I doubt they would cease to exist just because Israel was nicer to them.

How are you supposed to maintain a functioning government when you're under a hostile military occupation, your land is being annexed and you're under an economic blockade?  

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Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, -fish- said:

How are you supposed to maintain a functioning government when you're under a hostile military occupation, your land is being annexed and you're under an economic blockade?  

You maintain all that by NOT shooting rockets and committing other terrorist attacks against the nation that could obliterate you in a day if they wanted to.  Also, saying that you hate Jews and want to wipe them off the face of the earth doesn't help your cause either.

Seems like a winning strategy, no?   But if you mess with the Bull, you get the horns.

Edited by BladeRunner
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20 hours ago, timschochet said:

The Palestinian attitude towards Israel has not been as rigid over the years as you’re claiming. There have been several peace movements and other attempts to reach a solution that would leave Israel intact. Right now, unfortunately, Gaza is governed by an evil, extremist group of terrorist thugs. But Israel is certainly at least partially to blame for that. 

Isreal is not to blame for gaza being led by hamas.

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On 5/24/2021 at 5:19 PM, -fish- said:

How are you supposed to maintain a functioning government when you're under a hostile military occupation, your land is being annexed and you're under an economic blockade?  

You maintain a reasonable level of governance so that even if Israel blockades you, you can still use your border with Egypt (you know, another Muslim nation that should be an ally, but doesn't want to embrace Gaza's terrorism). 

And you don't act hostile towards Israel in 1948 through 1967 to set the stage for all of this.

Palestine has reaped what it sowed.  There have been multiple chances for them to be reasonable and work on a real solution, but they have collectively failed to do so because their demands are too punitive and the extremists are too strong.

Israel isn't backing down and doesn't have to.  I think they should back off the aggressive settlement building and make a show of good faith by decreasing their presence in the West Bank.  As for Gaza, I have no problem with them treating them as the terrorist, hostile state that they are.

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The Dearborn MI police chief had to make a public apology for liking a friends posts that said "I stand with Israel"    This is just the start..they are people in Dearborn that want him fired for likng that post.

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1 hour ago, Da Guru said:

The Dearborn MI police chief had to make a public apology for liking a friends posts that said "I stand with Israel"    This is just the start..they are people in Dearborn that want him fired for likng that post.

That's so wrong in so many ways that beginning to say why would require about four divergent thoughts, each divergent by probably four more, and then some. Needless to say public officials should generally, in the interest of their jobs, not take positions on public matters, which is massively, massively unfortunate. It strips the citizen of his speech really. If one can think of a more chilling effect besides prior restraint than job loss, I'd like to know it.

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Now if he had said "I stand with Palestine," would I have the same point of view? I'd like to think, yes, yes I would. I'd probably think he was either of Middle Eastern descent or a liberal, and disagree with him, but I don't think stripping a citizen of speech rights is altogether fair, prudent, or wise in the long run.

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2 minutes ago, rockaction said:

Now if he had said "I stand with Palestine," would I have the same point of view? I'd like to think, yes, yes I would. I'd probably think he was either of Middle Eastern descent or a liberal, and disagree with him, but I don't think stripping a citizen of speech rights is altogether fair, prudent, or wise in the long run.

Hey rock, happy Memorial Day and I 100% agree with you. No way this police chief should have to apologize. Way too much of this stuff going around these days. 

That being said, this whole “I stand with Israel” meme is pretty big these days, started by American Jews, and I find it very troubling because just like the old “America: love it or leave it” reaction to those who criticized the Vietnam War, it’s an attempt to crush any dissent or criticism of the government in question. 

Israel proper (outside of the Occupation) remains a democratic, free society, no matter what it’s critics claim. There are plenty of Israelis who disapprove of their government’s actions both before and during this latest crisis. One can agree with them, and not with Netanyahu, and still “stand with Israel”, though you’d never know it from listening to those who spread this rather obnoxious phrase around. 

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Posted (edited)
9 minutes ago, timschochet said:

Hey rock, happy Memorial Day and I 100% agree with you. No way this police chief should have to apologize. Way too much of this stuff going around these days. 

That being said, this whole “I stand with Israel” meme is pretty big these days, started by American Jews, and I find it very troubling because just like the old “America: love it or leave it” reaction to those who criticized the Vietnam War, it’s an attempt to crush any dissent or criticism of the government in question. 

Israel proper (outside of the Occupation) remains a democratic, free society, no matter what it’s critics claim. There are plenty of Israelis who disapprove of their government’s actions both before and during this latest crisis. One can agree with them, and not with Netanyahu, and still “stand with Israel”, though you’d never know it from listening to those who spread this rather obnoxious phrase around. 

Hey tim, Happy Memorial Day as well. Good to have you back.

Context matters. A relative of mine, who loves the American flag, started getting annoyed when seeing it bolted into the pickup trucks around here so that the flagpole sits in the corner of the pickup flatbed and the flag flaps away in the breeze. It was almost always accompanied by a Trump flag in the other flatbed post mixed with the American flag, sending the message that the bearer of the flags believed true patriots voted for Trump. It annoyed me, too, so I get how an innocuous, almost impossible to agree with phrase can hide jingoistic or other contexts.

But could we not be condemning a guy who liked an innocuous phrase without knowing its context? Like, if I support American flags, that has no bearing on my support for Trump because they're not necessarily interlinked in popular consciousness. It could just be a display of patriotism on my part. Now if I support Pepe The Frog on the other hand, I sort of know what I'm doing and really should have my intentions judged by the contextual part of the meme.

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10 minutes ago, timschochet said:

Hey rock, happy Memorial Day and I 100% agree with you. No way this police chief should have to apologize. Way too much of this stuff going around these days. 

That being said, this whole “I stand with Israel” meme is pretty big these days, started by American Jews, and I find it very troubling because just like the old “America: love it or leave it” reaction to those who criticized the Vietnam War, it’s an attempt to crush any dissent or criticism of the government in question. 

Israel proper (outside of the Occupation) remains a democratic, free society, no matter what it’s critics claim. There are plenty of Israelis who disapprove of their government’s actions both before and during this latest crisis. One can agree with them, and not with Netanyahu, and still “stand with Israel”, though you’d never know it from listening to those who spread this rather obnoxious phrase around. 

I'm not to familiar with the meme'ing of "I stand with Israel".  Its seems like a fairly basic phrase of support.  Would you be ok with "I support Israel"?

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6 minutes ago, djmich said:

I'm not to familiar with the meme'ing of "I stand with Israel".  Its seems like a fairly basic phrase of support.  Would you be ok with "I support Israel"?

I guess, though it’s fairly meaningless at this point. I’ve supported Israel my entire life. I do not support the Occupation, or the bombing of Gaza, or the settlement policies of Netanyahu. 

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Posted (edited)
26 minutes ago, timschochet said:

I guess, though it’s fairly meaningless at this point. I’ve supported Israel my entire life. I do not support the Occupation, or the bombing of Gaza, or the settlement policies of Netanyahu. 

So Tlaib makes no bones about that she stands with Palestine and and has a history of being anti-semetic, Talib would have no issue at all with anything that hurts Israel. Strange times indeed that a local police chief likes a post and might lose his job yet we have a person in congress who openly hates and nothing.

Edited by Da Guru
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28 minutes ago, timschochet said:

I guess, though it’s fairly meaningless at this point. I’ve supported Israel my entire life. I do not support the Occupation, or the bombing of Gaza, or the settlement policies of Netanyahu. 

I’m not sure it’s meaningless?  It would seem that in this time of conflict these statements would seem to indicate support for the things you’re saying you don’t support.  Why is that meaningless.

It’s ok you don’t support them, you’re pretty clear about it and that’s cool.

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5 minutes ago, djmich said:

I’m not sure it’s meaningless?  It would seem that in this time of conflict these statements would seem to indicate support for the things you’re saying you don’t support.  Why is that meaningless.

It’s ok you don’t support them, you’re pretty clear about it and that’s cool.

Forgive me I shouldn’t have written meaningless. I should have written false implication. “I stand with Israel”, or “I support Israel”, as a public statements used at this particular time carry the false implication that support of Netanyahu’s policies are the same as support for Israel, and, even more dangerously, that criticism of those policies is anti-Israel. 

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13 minutes ago, Da Guru said:

So Tlaib makes no bones about that she stands with Palestine and and has a history of being anti-semetic, Talib would have no issue at all with anything that hurts Israel. Strange times indeed that a local police chief likes a post and might lose his job yet we have a person in congress who openly hates and nothing.

I strongly disagree with Tliab and her ideas on Israel are radical and left-wing, but I can’t agree with you that she has a history of being anti-Semitic. I have read her statements on this pretty carefully and I don’t agree with the ADL’s analysis. 
I find the ever-increasing need by America’s Jewish community, along with conservative supporters of Israel, to link criticism of Israel to anti-semitism to be quite alarming. 

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  • 2 weeks later...

Aaaaannnnddd......we're back.

It's been a fun 3 weeks, but apparently everyone wasn't quite ready to bury the hatchet and move forward.  Netanyahu is no longer in power, but Hamas is still gonna Hamas and sends some balloon bombs over the wall from Gaza.  Israel fires back, taking out some Hamas facilities.  No casualties reported so far, but another round of fighting may happen sooner rather than later.

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