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Is Anyone Interested In Having FFL Sites Track First Downs? (1 Viewer)

Liquid Tension

Footballguy
I don't want to get into the PPR debate as I find it frustrating and don't understand the logic of it with the exception of trying to find a way to balance the scoring between positions and that is debatable.

WHY NOT GIVE A HALF OR FULL POINT FOR CATCHING A PASS FOR A 1ST DOWN instead?  Just straight forward getting at least a half a point for a 1st down is far more logical than giving anything for the act of catching a pass (especially with shovel and bubble screens).  Just reward the act of getting a 1st down which has value to a team.  Catching a pass by itself doesn't mean anything; a quick bubble screen that is tackled for a 2 yard loss should not give you positive points!

Eventually you could give a half a point for anyone who gets a 1st down by a run or pass caught.

The only thing holding this back is the sites not tracking this.  We need to push for this.

Thoughts?

 
I think you can even do first down scoring on yahoo.

What I need is other owners in my 1/2 PPR leagues that are actually receptive to the idea of 1/2 PPFD, or a hybrid 0.25 PPR + 0.25 PPFD.

It's criminal that a PPR rewards a RB for catching a ball for a two yard loss at +0.8.   But a RB who smashes through for a first down on a 1-yard carry on 4th & 1 is rewarded with +0.1.   Making a 10 yard reception equal to a 20-yard rush is a big bowl of wrong.  It puts unjustified premiums on high volume possession WRs and pass-catching RBs that isn't commensurate with what's actually happening on the field. 

1/2 PPR is just as ridiculous, but the ramifications are easier to swallow at 50%.   Unfortunately, I don't think I will ever have much traction with my leaguemates until first down scoring becomes a staple in weekly player rankings.     

 
We’ve switched from PPR to points per first down (PPFD), and never looked back. My hope is that, much like PPR was a fancy outlier to standard scoring for years, some day PPFD will take over. It’s unfortunate FBG won’t offer rankings and customized cheat sheets based on PPFD scoring…

 
We’ve switched from PPR to points per first down (PPFD), and never looked back. My hope is that, much like PPR was a fancy outlier to standard scoring for years, some day PPFD will take over. It’s unfortunate FBG won’t offer rankings and customized cheat sheets based on PPFD scoring…
What players benefit the most from PPFD?  Does it just generally work out to a percentage of catches / carries or do some outperform and catch / run for a greater number of first downs than the average?

 
I don't want to get into the PPR debate as I find it frustrating and don't understand the logic of it with the exception of trying to find a way to balance the scoring between positions and that is debatable.

WHY NOT GIVE A HALF OR FULL POINT FOR CATCHING A PASS FOR A 1ST DOWN instead?  Just straight forward getting at least a half a point for a 1st down is far more logical than giving anything for the act of catching a pass (especially with shovel and bubble screens).  Just reward the act of getting a 1st down which has value to a team.  Catching a pass by itself doesn't mean anything; a quick bubble screen that is tackled for a 2 yard loss should not give you positive points!

Eventually you could give a half a point for anyone who gets a 1st down by a run or pass caught.

The only thing holding this back is the sites not tracking this.  We need to push for this.

Thoughts?
Don't agree with this, but if you do want it, yes MFL does it.

 
It puts unjustified premiums on high volume possession WRs and pass-catching RBs that isn't commensurate with what's actually happening on the field.     
Well, this begs the question about if fantasy football is primarily about replicating what is happening on the field, or is it about producing a set of rules (lineup, scoring, etc.) that provides some balance in value across positions so that there is a greater level of strategy, and also varying types of strategy in roster construction, draft strategy, etc. that are viable routes to success, which makes for a more fun game to play.

If it's the former, then as most agree that QB is the most important position on the field, we all may as well play fantasy quarterback.

If it's the latter, then things such as PPR (which added value to WRs an also to receiving backs), TE premium scoring (so TEs can actually have value instead of being an after thought) and variations of 2QB/Superflex (so that QBs have value and are also not just an afterthought - though I think the implementation of this needs to be tweaked a bit as most variations that do this with ne adjustments to scoring now overvalue QB, but that is another subject) work to make the game we play a bit more compelling. That's not to say that things such as points per first down shouldn't be added, it's more to say that the reason for that within the context of the game we play should be examined.

 
I play in a dynasty league that has fairly typical scoring, except no PPR, and 0.5 points per first down rushing/receiving. And Superflex with generous QB scoring. Non-elite WRs are devaluted significantly compared to typical leagues, and non-elite TEs are useless. Which happens to be much more representative of real NFL value IMO.

 
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Dyn League entering its' 20th year. We discussed adding PPR several years ago when it was just becoming 'the next big thing'. Most detractors voiced the same arguments against PPR that are voiced here (being awarded points for receptions with little to no NFL value, etc.)...

It's probably not for everyone (and that's OK - it works for us, doesn't have to for you), but the compromise we adopted was to establish benchmarks for when PPR kicks in:

TE: PPR starting at reception 3

RB: PPR starting at reception 4

WR:: PPR starting at reception 5

Pass-catchers get credit for all receiving yards, but ppr doesn't start accruing until the benchmarks have been reached. Again, not for everyone, but MFL does support this.

When I've had the spare time (precious little these days), I've sometimes thought about distance yardage scoring formulas (for every play, not just for TD producing plays) that would incorporate a sliding scale with a  blend of fractional/decimal PPR and yardage, based on the length of a completion, or if you chose, also for a pass completion or rushing attempt, or whatever you decide.

Hypothetically, under a base-10 system, for a pass-catcher to get a full PPR for a catch, it would have to be the ultra rare 100-yard pass play (or something less, maybe 80+, using quartiles), every other reception, based on the yards it accrued would receive some fraction of 1 PPR, tacked on to the yardage. You could do the same thing with the yardage, for any yardage (passing, rushing, receiving) where the points earned for the play are based off a sliding scale where, depending on the length of the play, yards change value.

For example, a 10 yard reception, Player X would get .1 for the reception and 'x' for the yards...for a 50 yard reception, player X would get .5 for the reception and 'x x (whatever value you might decide on for the range in which a 50 yard reception falls) IE: not all yards are worth the same amount, it would all depend on the distance of the particular play, how much that plays yards were worth. You could do the same with passing and rushing yards, with the completion and the attempt getting a decimal score based on how far the play went (and this could work rewarding/punishing for both positive and negative plays).

That's probably a lot for many people to handle, and that's OK. Personally, I'd like to try out a League like that, just for S&G, if one existed, or if someone knew how to incorporate that into the scoring software for some League Managment platform.

People can do whatever they want in their own individual Leagues. If it's not your thing, don't play in that League, or adopt those ideas into your own.

The individuality of Leagues is one of the most fascinating things to me about this hobby.

 
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It's criminal that a PPR rewards a RB for catching a ball for a two yard loss at +0.8.   But a RB who smashes through for a first down on a 1-yard carry on 4th & 1 is rewarded with +0.1.   Making a 10 yard reception equal to a 20-yard rush is a big bowl of wrong.  It puts unjustified premiums on high volume possession WRs and pass-catching RBs that isn't commensurate with what's actually happening on the field. 
Totally agree...and what about a shovel pass or a bubble screen?  The act of catching a ball doesn't add any more value than a handoff.  The act of catching a ball has value is based on the yards gained or the getting a 1st down or a scoring a TD.  So what part is the only part not being captured?  It is the act of catching a 1st down pass (or running for one) 

Instead, people feel getting a point or even a half a point for catching the ball has value 👎

I am glad that some sites are giving the ability to reward 1st downs, I hope it becomes universal.  We should all demand it.

 
Do you like PPR?  I would be interested in your thought process if you like PPR and don't like PPFD?  
Yes I do like ppr. I prefer half ppl. 

As another poster mentioned in another thread, I also don't like looking at a box score and not being able to figure out my points. I don't think any box score or stats on a ticker on tv is ever going to show first down stats. 

I also don't feel the need that some do to make fantasy exactly equivalent to real NFL values. I don't need defense being as important as offense like in the nfl. I don't need qb value to be by far the greatest position of importance like the nfl. I don't need pass interference to give my fantasy team positive points like the nfl. It's called fantasy for a reason. I see zero need on relying on first downs for points.

Just my opinion though. 

 
What players benefit the most from PPFD?  Does it just generally work out to a percentage of catches / carries or do some outperform and catch / run for a greater number of first downs than the average?
A good and fair question.  I don't have the data, but certain receivers that have great value in football are understated in Fantasy and those are the possession receivers that move the chains.  The data that would add relevance would be rewarding TE's for 1st downs as well.

and this leads us to another well thought out post/question: 

Well, this begs the question about if fantasy football is primarily about replicating what is happening on the field, or is it about producing a set of rules (lineup, scoring, etc.) that provides some balance in value across positions so that there is a greater level of strategy, and also varying types of strategy in roster construction, draft strategy, etc. that are viable routes to success, which makes for a more fun game to play.

If it's the former, then as most agree that QB is the most important position on the field, we all may as well play fantasy quarterback.

If it's the latter, then things such as PPR (which added value to WRs an also to receiving backs), TE premium scoring (so TEs can actually have value instead of being an after thought) and variations of 2QB/Superflex (so that QBs have value and are also not just an afterthought - though I think the implementation of this needs to be tweaked a bit as most variations that do this with ne adjustments to scoring now overvalue QB, but that is another subject) work to make the game we play a bit more compelling. That's not to say that things such as points per first down shouldn't be added, it's more to say that the reason for that within the context of the game we play should be examined.
I don't think it is an absolute answer.  I believe there is a balance.  I think you want a set of rules that gives some balance to scoring positions but allows the performance on the field to correlate with the scoring/value in fantasy.  I mean the reason why we use 6 points for a TD, 2 points for a safety, 3 for a FG and 1 point for an extra point (in most cases) is because that is what the real scoring is.  We could create some decimal points in each case if we wanted actual value in a fantasy standpoint, but that is not as much fun (and fun, fairness and something reasonably easy to understand are probably the main goals).  If something happens and you have no idea of the value for or against you, that isn't much fun.

My overall point is that PPFD is very valuable in football and it isn't captured in fantasy, while PPR is used in 50%+ leagues and is artificial and adds zero value on the field.  I don't see how PPFD isn't used all the time, or tracked and monitored with some of the questions brought up, yet PPR is used/tracked and it doesn't hold a candle to PPFD

 
It's probably not for everyone (and that's OK - it works for us, doesn't have to for you), but the compromise we adopted was to establish benchmarks for when PPR kicks in:

TE: PPR starting at reception 3

RB: PPR starting at reception 4

WR:: PPR starting at reception 5
Appreciate the long post.  Your point about individuality is a good one; just because I think PPR is silly doesn't mean everyone needs to listen to me...do what you enjoy!  Your above solution allows you to adjust to the way you want scoring handled; giving TE's more value.  My only comment with the above is that I am not sure the 3rd catch by a TE should be worth so much more than the 2nd?  Especially 1 full point which is the same as 10 yards.  If I had to say anything, it would be that yards should be valued more. However, we try and keep it simple (part of what I said previously), because it is easy to know that a 15 yard gain is 1.5 points (in decimal scoring).  Too much complication lowers the fun; I believe.

Switching the thought a little as some people have mentioned how the TE position outside of the top few isn't very valuable.  Many people blend TE's and WR's which I never really liked, but I do understand as TE's who most of the time line up outside are really big WR's.  I also am OK with the value being skewed as it does add value/strategy to getting the premium TE's.

 
Yes I do like ppr. I prefer half ppl. 

As another poster mentioned in another thread, I also don't like looking at a box score and not being able to figure out my points. I don't think any box score or stats on a ticker on tv is ever going to show first down stats. 

I also don't feel the need that some do to make fantasy exactly equivalent to real NFL values. I don't need defense being as important as offense like in the nfl. I don't need qb value to be by far the greatest position of importance like the nfl. I don't need pass interference to give my fantasy team positive points like the nfl. It's called fantasy for a reason. I see zero need on relying on first downs for points.

Just my opinion though. 
Thanks for the response.  I agree that there is value knowing how a more simple scoring system plays out rather than focusing on thresholds etc.  the difference for me is that when I watch that is more important than looking at a box score.   If you were going to look at the box score, you might as well look at your live game scoring?  I do believe your main point is more about it doesn't have to be exactly like a football game and I think almost everyone agrees with that.  However, getting more aligned with actual performance is something that I view as important and PPFD does this far greater than PPR.  Like everything there is a balance, but I still don't see the logic in PPR, let alone PPR over PPFD

 
Thanks for the response.  I agree that there is value knowing how a more simple scoring system plays out rather than focusing on thresholds etc.  the difference for me is that when I watch that is more important than looking at a box score.   If you were going to look at the box score, you might as well look at your live game scoring?  I do believe your main point is more about it doesn't have to be exactly like a football game and I think almost everyone agrees with that.  However, getting more aligned with actual performance is something that I view as important and PPFD does this far greater than PPR.  Like everything there is a balance, but I still don't see the logic in PPR, let alone PPR over PPFD
I think the shift to every site out there tracking first downs will be a long one. I play many leagues and don't always follow every live game scoring non stop too. I'd like to Google a box score and see how players did, or like I say, look at a ticker and see a stat and say "woah! Evans got 15 catches!  That's good for a few of my teams!". 

I believe I could enjoy ppfd if I was in 1 league and I got to watch every play of every game but for ppl in multiple leagues, who like to see stat updates I personally believe it's another one of those " let's get too complicated with rules" thoughts that I can't get behind. 

 
For about 10 years now, I've liked the idea of PPFD.

In PPR, catching a pass that results in a 3 yard loss and scoring a + .7 points in the process has always bothered me.

I guess it would be less than +  .7 depending on your WR yardage scoring.

But the bother still remains.

 
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IMO the best combo is to use PPFD plus distance bonuses (e.g., +1 for 20 yard play, +2 for 40 yard play). First downs are valuable because of the new set of downs and extending drivers. Big gains are valuable on top of that because of the impact on field position.

 
IMO the best combo is to use PPFD plus distance bonuses (e.g., +1 for 20 yard play, +2 for 40 yard play). First downs are valuable because of the new set of downs and extending drivers. Big gains are valuable on top of that because of the impact on field position.
If we're this concerned about nfl vs fantasy value, then we should probably take away points for offensive pass interference.

I also absolutely detest the idea of bonuses in fantasy.  Players are already rewarded for that yardage.

 
IMO the best combo is to use PPFD plus distance bonuses (e.g., +1 for 20 yard play, +2 for 40 yard play). First downs are valuable because of the new set of downs and extending drivers. Big gains are valuable on top of that because of the impact on field position.
I believe that the yards are already rewarded and am not in favor of additional points for a large gain. 

 
If we're this concerned about nfl vs fantasy value, then we should probably take away points for offensive pass interference.

I also absolutely detest the idea of bonuses in fantasy.  Players are already rewarded for that yardage
Many receivers get the short end of the stick for having PI (or holding) committed against them, perhaps stopping a big gain.  If someone wanted to penalize for OPI and reward for DPI against I am OK with that, but prefer to keep it cleaner and not have it.  BTW, there are more holding a DPI than offensive penalties.

 
What players benefit the most from PPFD?  Does it just generally work out to a percentage of catches / carries or do some outperform and catch / run for a greater number of first downs than the average?
Generally speaking, your studs become more valuable - imagine a Derrick Henry or a Davante Adams with a PPFD scenario... and those are well deserved - these players are generating real life NFL success, so it translates into fantasy numbers. WRs generally have a higher percentages of touches that go for first downs than RBs do, so this also equalizes the RB/WR positions a bit (which is why I think PPR was invented in the first place). However, crappy WRs or dump off RBs are not rewarded anymore (the olden-year variety Reggie Bush stat line of 6 catches for 4 yards doesn't buy much with PPFD).

 
If we're this concerned about nfl vs fantasy value, then we should probably take away points for offensive pass interference.
So, there's a difference between saying "fantasy football doesn't equal real football" and the idea that SOME outcomes that are positive in real life should also correlate to being positive in fantasy. In this case, it easy and clean - PPFD is a statistical category that's easy to track through most stat services AND it is meaningful in real life. Your league can decide how far you want to take this, offensive pass interference included. I get that may not be the goal, but its clearly not a bad thing to have.

 
So, there's a difference between saying "fantasy football doesn't equal real football" and the idea that SOME outcomes that are positive in real life should also correlate to being positive in fantasy. In this case, it easy and clean - PPFD is a statistical category that's easy to track through most stat services AND it is meaningful in real life. Your league can decide how far you want to take this, offensive pass interference included. I get that may not be the goal, but its clearly not a bad thing to have.
The day tickers and box scores start tracking and posting first downs, I'd consider it. I don't think this happens in our lifetime. 

 
The day tickers and box scores start tracking and posting first downs, I'd consider it. I don't think this happens in our lifetime. 
That's fair. I've long held this position myself. But then, tickers and box scores stopped tracking a lot of things we wanted to have in our scoring format. I also think the number of folks who check their scores via tickers and box scores is at an all time low now - most people just prefer live scoring from their app, based on your league rules.

 
Well, this begs the question about if fantasy football is primarily about replicating what is happening on the field, or is it about producing a set of rules (lineup, scoring, etc.) that provides some balance in value across positions so that there is a greater level of strategy, and also varying types of strategy in roster construction, draft strategy, etc. that are viable routes to success, which makes for a more fun game to play.

If it's the former, then as most agree that QB is the most important position on the field, we all may as well play fantasy quarterback.

If it's the latter, then things such as PPR (which added value to WRs an also to receiving backs), TE premium scoring (so TEs can actually have value instead of being an after thought) and variations of 2QB/Superflex (so that QBs have value and are also not just an afterthought - though I think the implementation of this needs to be tweaked a bit as most variations that do this with ne adjustments to scoring now overvalue QB, but that is another subject) work to make the game we play a bit more compelling. That's not to say that things such as points per first down shouldn't be added, it's more to say that the reason for that within the context of the game we play should be examined.
This is exactly the key to me.  We have tried to balance the scoring across all positions.so that the same tier of player scores the similarly across all positions.  That way you can build your team in many different ways to add flexibility.  I think that makes the game better and more competitive.  

 
Genester said:
That's fair. I've long held this position myself. But then, tickers and box scores stopped tracking a lot of things we wanted to have in our scoring format. I also think the number of folks who check their scores via tickers and box scores is at an all time low now - most people just prefer live scoring from their app, based on your league rules.
I think this (checking an app) is definitely true for the more avid fantasy player (and if you are on a fantasy football website in May, you fall into this category), but I would say that for the vast majority of recreational players (they guys in a work league that don't look at things until a day before their draft, etc.), the added complexity and not being able to see that ticker and come up with a rough idea if my guy did good or not is a drawback.

That said, as a certified FF junkie, while I am not sure I'd necessarily play in a PPFD (in my old age I'm starting to embrace simplicity more), I would certainly love to have that be an option within a scoring system and would really enjoy discussions on what effect the inclusion of that type of scoring category along with it's possible permutations (passing, receiving, rushing, different scoring for each type, etc.) would have on player values, much like the discussions on the effect of PPR (and it's permutations such as graduated PPR, etc.)

 
The day tickers and box scores start tracking and posting first downs, I'd consider it. I don't think this happens in our lifetime. 
That's fair. I've long held this position myself. But then, tickers and box scores stopped tracking a lot of things we wanted to have in our scoring format. I also think the number of folks who check their scores via tickers and box scores is at an all time low now - most people just prefer live scoring from their app, based on your league rules.
I think this is the point, most people watch their app and the live scoring.  While not statistically valid, I don't know anyone that looks at box scores until after a game and the score is known (Obviously, there is an occasion to try and understand what happened).  I see everyone running to their matchups live scoring.

 
That said, as a certified FF junkie, while I am not sure I'd necessarily play in a PPFD (in my old age I'm starting to embrace simplicity more), I would certainly love to have that be an option within a scoring system and would really enjoy discussions on what effect the inclusion of that type of scoring category along with it's possible permutations (passing, receiving, rushing, different scoring for each type, etc.) would have on player values, much like the discussions on the effect of PPR (and it's permutations such as graduated PPR, etc.)
Exactly, why not give people the option.  I don't see how PPR can ever be better than PPFD, but more people than I ever thought would embrace PPR even though it has zero value on the field and is artificially used to try and level some perceived lack of equity.  If we can find a to balance out any perceived inequity and do it in a way that makes people happy AND it is more representative of the actual benefit in the game, it is a win win.

 
I don't want to get into the PPR debate as I find it frustrating and don't understand the logic of it with the exception of trying to find a way to balance the scoring between positions and that is debatable.

WHY NOT GIVE A HALF OR FULL POINT FOR CATCHING A PASS FOR A 1ST DOWN instead?  Just straight forward getting at least a half a point for a 1st down is far more logical than giving anything for the act of catching a pass (especially with shovel and bubble screens).  Just reward the act of getting a 1st down which has value to a team.  Catching a pass by itself doesn't mean anything; a quick bubble screen that is tackled for a 2 yard loss should not give you positive points!

Eventually you could give a half a point for anyone who gets a 1st down by a run or pass caught.

The only thing holding this back is the sites not tracking this.  We need to push for this.

Thoughts?
I was in a league like this 5 years ago. Much better than ppr.

 
Liquid Tension said:
Exactly, why not give people the option.  I don't see how PPR can ever be better than PPFD, but more people than I ever thought would embrace PPR even though it has zero value on the field and is artificially used to try and level some perceived lack of equity.  If we can find a to balance out any perceived inequity and do it in a way that makes people happy AND it is more representative of the actual benefit in the game, it is a win win.


That's fair. I've long held this position myself. But then, tickers and box scores stopped tracking a lot of things we wanted to have in our scoring format. I also think the number of folks who check their scores via tickers and box scores is at an all time low now - most people just prefer live scoring from their app, based on your league rules.
1. I don't think it has zero value on the field.  You're singling out the exception (RB's who get a catch for 0 yards).  Every first down catch that you find valuable and having value, would also count for a point in PPR.  There's value here even if it doesn't exactly correlate exactly to football success as much as PPFD does (which I've already mentioned I believe doesn't need to matter that much for fantasy)

2.  There is a lack of equity (equality?) in positions.  It's not perceived.  I agree that over time, WR's have become more valuable, but RB scarcity of recent years has almost brought it back.  I'm not sure how many drafts you were in last year, but dammmn did the RB's fly off the board early.  Almost a fully top two rounds of RBs.  I personally like 0.5 PPR best, but full PPR does equal out the RBs and WRs a bit more.

3. As for the box score thing, I think it is more valid than you think.  I'm far from old fashioned and all about technology so I do see the point about people using live scoring more than box scores (I do as well).  But I want to be able to see, read, etc stats and know if a player had a good game or not.  I want to message my friends and say "wow Julio had 19 catches today that's huge for my team" and not go digging for rare stats that may/may not be tracked on common sports sites and have to say "holy Julio got 4 first downs today!". 

4. First downs also might increase the value of rushing QBs (which is already very high).  People want to talk about "oh that 1 catch for 1 yard is pointless", but we're giving the same value for a qb sneaking the ball for 1 inch as he'd get for throwing the ball 25% of the entire field?  Wouldn't throwing the ball 25 yards (resulting in a first down 99% of the time) be more 'football valuable" to a team than a 1 inch sneak on his own 20 yard line?

I think this is a prime example of overthinking something.  If you hate PPR that's cool, just get rid of it or run 0.374592 Points per reception if you want to make it perfect and only care to look at live scoring.

 
I just going to throw in my two cents.  Our league went to adding first downs four years ago.  We assigned 1 point for each first down.  It went over so well that we increased it to two points...which enabled me to reduce PPR between the RB/WR and TE positions.  For reference, we want the top players at each position to be roughly equivalent in scoring.

2017-2018
1 point per First Down
2 pts. per reception for RB
3 pts. per reception for WR
4 pts. per reception for TE

Top 5 RB Avg- 57.23 PPG
Top 5 WR Avg- 51.45 PPG
Top 5 TE Avg- 52.67 PPG

2019-2020
2 points per First Down
2 points per reception for RB
2.5 points per reception for WR
3 points per reception for TE

Top 5 RB Avg- 54.58 PPG
Top 5 WR Avg- 55.46 PPG
Top 5 TE Avg- 55.39 PPG

For further reference, the average number of first downs scored per game by position over the last four years:
RB- 12.4
WR- 9.5
TE- 7.2

I'm enjoying following this thread.  Hope this helps.

 
I just going to throw in my two cents.  Our league went to adding first downs four years ago.  We assigned 1 point for each first down.  It went over so well that we increased it to two points...which enabled me to reduce PPR between the RB/WR and TE positions.  For reference, we want the top players at each position to be roughly equivalent in scoring.

2017-2018
1 point per First Down
2 pts. per reception for RB
3 pts. per reception for WR
4 pts. per reception for TE

Top 5 RB Avg- 57.23 PPG
Top 5 WR Avg- 51.45 PPG
Top 5 TE Avg- 52.67 PPG

2019-2020
2 points per First Down
2 points per reception for RB
2.5 points per reception for WR
3 points per reception for TE

Top 5 RB Avg- 54.58 PPG
Top 5 WR Avg- 55.46 PPG
Top 5 TE Avg- 55.39 PPG

For further reference, the average number of first downs scored per game by position over the last four years:
RB- 12.4
WR- 9.5
TE- 7.2

I'm enjoying following this thread.  Hope this helps.
The only flaw I see in looking at only the average for the top 5 by position (and obviously this is league specific) to determine if a scoring system is balanced or not is that it does not take into account the number of required starters at a given position.

Simplicity sake, you'd at least also want to see the scoring spread across the likely starters at a position (so if 2 required RBs, the spread between RB1 and RB 24, assuming 1 TE, the spread from TE1 to TE2, etc.) and see how to balance that out.

Also, if you have flex positions, you'd also want to see who the top remaining scorers are once the "starters" are removed, as in a balanced system, in theory the main flex options would be a diverse group of positions, not all RB or WR, etc. In my opinion, that is one of the major flaws in most superflex leagues, the scoring system is not adjusted to reflect this and they become de facto 2QB leagues.

It is no simple task nor do I pretend to have an answer. I have spent way more time over the years than I care to admit trying to devise a league setup looking at league size, lineup requirements and scoring system to achieve truly balanced positional values and have come to the conclusion that it is a fool's errand and my time is better spent enjoying the game and playing in different types of leagues to give me varying kinds of challenges.

 
It is no simple task nor do I pretend to have an answer. I have spent way more time over the years than I care to admit trying to devise a league setup looking at league size, lineup requirements and scoring system to achieve truly balanced positional values and have come to the conclusion that it is a fool's errand and my time is better spent enjoying the game and playing in different types of leagues to give me varying kinds of challenges.
I agree but I do think it is worth taking some time to mostly get there rather than just not caring at all.  At some point the reward doesn't justify the time spent.....meaning I can 90% there by spending 25% of the time but to get that extra 10% it will never happen no matter how much time you put in.  

 
I agree but I do think it is worth taking some time to mostly get there rather than just not caring at all.  At some point the reward doesn't justify the time spent.....meaning I can 90% there by spending 25% of the time but to get that extra 10% it will never happen no matter how much time you put in.  
Absolutely agree - there is a balance to be found and I am always tinkering with ideas - graduated PPR, tweaking lineup requirements, etc.

 
1. I don't think it has zero value on the field.  You're singling out the exception (RB's who get a catch for 0 yards).  Every first down catch that you find valuable and having value, would also count for a point in PPR.  There's value here even if it doesn't exactly correlate exactly to football success as much as PPFD does (which I've already mentioned I believe doesn't need to matter that much for fantasy)

I am not singling out anything except rewarding a catch that gets the offense a 1st down.  Saying that a first down is scored the same in PPR is correct and why PPR doesn't make sense because why give a point for all those other catches (some, including shovel passes are caught behind the LOS).  The act of a "catch" by itself does not have any value, which is why there are many times, where a play is blown up and we tell them to purposely drop the forward pass.  The most important things are whether after the catch and run are whether you get a TD, a 1st down and then how many forward yards to help get your next TD, 1st down or add to the punt/go for 4th down.. 

2.  There is a lack of equity (equality?) in positions.  It's not perceived.  I agree that over time, WR's have become more valuable, but RB scarcity of recent years has almost brought it back.  I'm not sure how many drafts you were in last year, but dammmn did the RB's fly off the board early.  Almost a fully top two rounds of RBs.  I personally like 0.5 PPR best, but full PPR does equal out the RBs and WRs a bit more.

By perceived I meant some people like simplicity, some people don't with some different values and some people feel that they are not equal and should be closer to equal in terms of value.  As for the equaling out having 3 WR's helps, but artificially trying to make them equal lessens the fun for me.  I think we use 6 points for a TD (usually) and 3 for a FG and 2 for a safety so that it feels more like real football.  I also think PPR rewards players who aren't as valuable because you aren't rewarding what is important on the field.  there has to be some balance of fun, easy to understand and realism.  We coudl come up with the exact formula that each position should get per yard to equal it out but that would not be fun because who can take each yard and multiply by each RB yard by 0.07 or each WR yard by .11? (just an example)

3. As for the box score thing, I think it is more valid than you think.  I'm far from old fashioned and all about technology so I do see the point about people using live scoring more than box scores (I do as well).  But I want to be able to see, read, etc stats and know if a player had a good game or not.  I want to message my friends and say "wow Julio had 19 catches today that's huge for my team" and not go digging for rare stats that may/may not be tracked on common sports sites and have to say "holy Julio got 4 first downs today!". 

My only point here is that saying Julio got 19 catches and if he had 35 total yards and 2 fumbles, why should that be a positive day?  You may not know that he fumbled twice or threw an INT on a trick play, but they should be counted a lot more than a catch, which again by itself has no value.

4. First downs also might increase the value of rushing QBs (which is already very high).  People want to talk about "oh that 1 catch for 1 yard is pointless", but we're giving the same value for a qb sneaking the ball for 1 inch as he'd get for throwing the ball 25% of the entire field?  Wouldn't throwing the ball 25 yards (resulting in a first down 99% of the time) be more 'football valuable" to a team than a 1 inch sneak on his own 20 yard line?

Don't give it to QB's, maybe don't give it to RB's unless it is caught? Maybe just give it to WR's?  Make up the rule that makes sense to you, but use it instead of PPR

I think this is a prime example of overthinking something.  If you hate PPR that's cool, just get rid of it or run 0.374592 Points per reception if you want to make it perfect and only care to look at live scoring.

I don't understand how PPFD is overthinking more than PPR?  

 
For further reference, the average number of first downs scored per game by position over the last four years:
RB- 12.4
WR- 9.5
TE- 7.2

I'm enjoying following this thread.  Hope this helps.
This is excellent information and reinforces my thought about only allowing it for receptions.  Do you know the breakdown for receptions (or anyone).  Also, how many 1st down to QB's get running or catching the ball?  Thank you for this Jedi

 
1. I don't think it has zero value on the field.  You're singling out the exception (RB's who get a catch for 0 yards).  Every first down catch that you find valuable and having value, would also count for a point in PPR.  There's value here even if it doesn't exactly correlate exactly to football success as much as PPFD does (which I've already mentioned I believe doesn't need to matter that much for fantasy)

I am not singling out anything except rewarding a catch that gets the offense a 1st down.  Saying that a first down is scored the same in PPR is correct and why PPR doesn't make sense because why give a point for all those other catches (some, including shovel passes are caught behind the LOS).  The act of a "catch" by itself does not have any value, which is why there are many times, where a play is blown up and we tell them to purposely drop the forward pass.  The most important things are whether after the catch and run are whether you get a TD, a 1st down and then how many forward yards to help get your next TD, 1st down or add to the punt/go for 4th down.. 

Sure, if that's your issue than take away catches behind the LOS.  95% of catches create positive plays.  I agree about your point on a catch for a loss having very little value, but changing a whole system and bringing up many other issues, simply to fix maybe 3% of the catches in the league, is overthinking it.



2.  There is a lack of equity (equality?) in positions.  It's not perceived.  I agree that over time, WR's have become more valuable, but RB scarcity of recent years has almost brought it back.  I'm not sure how many drafts you were in last year, but dammmn did the RB's fly off the board early.  Almost a fully top two rounds of RBs.  I personally like 0.5 PPR best, but full PPR does equal out the RBs and WRs a bit more.

By perceived I meant some people like simplicity, some people don't with some different values and some people feel that they are not equal and should be closer to equal in terms of value.  As for the equaling out having 3 WR's helps, but artificially trying to make them equal lessens the fun for me.  I think we use 6 points for a TD (usually) and 3 for a FG and 2 for a safety so that it feels more like real football.  I also think PPR rewards players who aren't as valuable because you aren't rewarding what is important on the field.  there has to be some balance of fun, easy to understand and realism.  We coudl come up with the exact formula that each position should get per yard to equal it out but that would not be fun because who can take each yard and multiply by each RB yard by 0.07 or each WR yard by .11? (just an example)

Again you're going back to the 'realism' argument.  For many fantasy players like myself, realism compared to NFL value is not that important.  We each have our own opinion on it.  You just said it would be too hard to multiply those values to make it exact... but live scoring could do that if in fact you only care about live scoring and you're saying box scores are irrelevant.
 

3. As for the box score thing, I think it is more valid than you think.  I'm far from old fashioned and all about technology so I do see the point about people using live scoring more than box scores (I do as well).  But I want to be able to see, read, etc stats and know if a player had a good game or not.  I want to message my friends and say "wow Julio had 19 catches today that's huge for my team" and not go digging for rare stats that may/may not be tracked on common sports sites and have to say "holy Julio got 4 first downs today!". 

My only point here is that saying Julio got 19 catches and if he had 35 total yards and 2 fumbles, why should that be a positive day?  You may not know that he fumbled twice or threw an INT on a trick play, but they should be counted a lot more than a catch, which again by itself has no value.

Maybe he had 19 catches for 35 yards, 2 fumbles, and 12 first downs.... you're saying That should be a positive day?
 

4. First downs also might increase the value of rushing QBs (which is already very high).  People want to talk about "oh that 1 catch for 1 yard is pointless", but we're giving the same value for a qb sneaking the ball for 1 inch as he'd get for throwing the ball 25% of the entire field?  Wouldn't throwing the ball 25 yards (resulting in a first down 99% of the time) be more 'football valuable" to a team than a 1 inch sneak on his own 20 yard line?

Don't give it to QB's, maybe don't give it to RB's unless it is caught? Maybe just give it to WR's?  Make up the rule that makes sense to you, but use it instead of PPR

So now you're only giving a point to WRs, or RB's who catch a first down and don't run for one.  Again, what an absolute nightmare for someone waking up and reading stats.  Also a nightmare watching a game and knowing to win you need X yards or X first down catches only by WR's to win the game.  I like to play a lot of fantasy, but also enjoy a game and this is complicating fantasy to a point it doesn't need to be.
 

I think this is a prime example of overthinking something.  If you hate PPR that's cool, just get rid of it or run 0.374592 Points per reception if you want to make it perfect and only care to look at live scoring.

I don't understand how PPFD is overthinking more than PPR?  

See above.  I want to look at stats.  I want to text my buddy stats.  If I'm at work and can't watch a game, and have Julio in 3 leagues, I want to google his stats quickly rather than open up 3 sites of live scoring and hovering over his points in each one to see how many first downs he caught.  Does your league reward QB's for completions and ding them for incompletions?  If not, why don't you do this?

 
1. I don't think it has zero value on the field.  You're singling out the exception (RB's who get a catch for 0 yards).  Every first down catch that you find valuable and having value, would also count for a point in PPR.  There's value here even if it doesn't exactly correlate exactly to football success as much as PPFD does (which I've already mentioned I believe doesn't need to matter that much for fantasy)

I am not singling out anything except rewarding a catch that gets the offense a 1st down.  Saying that a first down is scored the same in PPR is correct and why PPR doesn't make sense because why give a point for all those other catches (some, including shovel passes are caught behind the LOS).  The act of a "catch" by itself does not have any value, which is why there are many times, where a play is blown up and we tell them to purposely drop the forward pass.  The most important things are whether after the catch and run are whether you get a TD, a 1st down and then how many forward yards to help get your next TD, 1st down or add to the punt/go for 4th down.. 

Sure, if that's your issue than take away catches behind the LOS.  95% of catches create positive plays.  I agree about your point on a catch for a loss having very little value, but changing a whole system and bringing up many other issues, simply to fix maybe 3% of the catches in the league, is overthinking it.

I don't know the exact number but there has been an increase in bubble screens and shovel passes and would bet the completion % is more than 3% of the completions.  That being said, not sure how you take away catches behind the LOS, but you are already counting yards for anything past the LOS.  I don't see how PPFD changes the whole system more than PPR (which is artificially changing the system).  



2.  There is a lack of equity (equality?) in positions.  It's not perceived.  I agree that over time, WR's have become more valuable, but RB scarcity of recent years has almost brought it back.  I'm not sure how many drafts you were in last year, but dammmn did the RB's fly off the board early.  Almost a fully top two rounds of RBs.  I personally like 0.5 PPR best, but full PPR does equal out the RBs and WRs a bit more.

By perceived I meant some people like simplicity, some people don't with some different values and some people feel that they are not equal and should be closer to equal in terms of value.  As for the equaling out having 3 WR's helps, but artificially trying to make them equal lessens the fun for me.  I think we use 6 points for a TD (usually) and 3 for a FG and 2 for a safety so that it feels more like real football.  I also think PPR rewards players who aren't as valuable because you aren't rewarding what is important on the field.  there has to be some balance of fun, easy to understand and realism.  We coudl come up with the exact formula that each position should get per yard to equal it out but that would not be fun because who can take each yard and multiply by each RB yard by 0.07 or each WR yard by .11? (just an example)

Again you're going back to the 'realism' argument.  For many fantasy players like myself, realism compared to NFL value is not that important.  We each have our own opinion on it.  You just said it would be too hard to multiply those values to make it exact... but live scoring could do that if in fact you only care about live scoring and you're saying box scores are irrelevant.

Realism is part of the balance because you do want the players who are actually good to get points, otherwise (and this is absurd) you might as well give points to the players who have the most drops because it may even out the scoring?  I do use the live scoring while the game is on, but there is value to knowing roughly what a play was worth.  We all have had a close game come down to Monday night and you are either clinging to a 3 point lead or down by 3 and every one of those 30 yards you are counting in your head.  Anyway, my point is that I think players should be more valuable because they are better players in the real game (while striking the balance of what makes sense)
 

3. As for the box score thing, I think it is more valid than you think.  I'm far from old fashioned and all about technology so I do see the point about people using live scoring more than box scores (I do as well).  But I want to be able to see, read, etc stats and know if a player had a good game or not.  I want to message my friends and say "wow Julio had 19 catches today that's huge for my team" and not go digging for rare stats that may/may not be tracked on common sports sites and have to say "holy Julio got 4 first downs today!". 

My only point here is that saying Julio got 19 catches and if he had 35 total yards and 2 fumbles, why should that be a positive day?  You may not know that he fumbled twice or threw an INT on a trick play, but they should be counted a lot more than a catch, which again by itself has no value.

Maybe he had 19 catches for 35 yards, 2 fumbles, and 12 first downs.... you're saying That should be a positive day?

Getting 12 1st downs made some of those 19 catches very valuable, but if he just made 2nd 8, that isn't too helpful.
 

4. First downs also might increase the value of rushing QBs (which is already very high).  People want to talk about "oh that 1 catch for 1 yard is pointless", but we're giving the same value for a qb sneaking the ball for 1 inch as he'd get for throwing the ball 25% of the entire field?  Wouldn't throwing the ball 25 yards (resulting in a first down 99% of the time) be more 'football valuable" to a team than a 1 inch sneak on his own 20 yard line?

Don't give it to QB's, maybe don't give it to RB's unless it is caught? Maybe just give it to WR's?  Make up the rule that makes sense to you, but use it instead of PPR

So now you're only giving a point to WRs, or RB's who catch a first down and don't run for one.  Again, what an absolute nightmare for someone waking up and reading stats.  Also a nightmare watching a game and knowing to win you need X yards or X first down catches only by WR's to win the game.  I like to play a lot of fantasy, but also enjoy a game and this is complicating fantasy to a point it doesn't need to be.
 

I think this is a prime example of overthinking something.  If you hate PPR that's cool, just get rid of it or run 0.374592 Points per reception if you want to make it perfect and only care to look at live scoring.

I don't understand how PPFD is overthinking more than PPR?  

See above.  I want to look at stats.  I want to text my buddy stats.  If I'm at work and can't watch a game, and have Julio in 3 leagues, I want to google his stats quickly rather than open up 3 sites of live scoring and hovering over his points in each one to see how many first downs he caught.  Does your league reward QB's for completions and ding them for incompletions?  If not, why don't you do this?

I don't give points for RB attempts either.  But, either I am not explaining it well or you are missing my point, you added PPR which has no value by itself only because it was easy to see.  I lean more on the realism side but clearly fantasy is not reality, but when you can reward for something that is valuable I see it being a win win.  I see PPFD being far better than PPR is every single aspect, except for being able to see in a ticker what the guy did.  But, I understand that has some added fun to be able to do that, but you never see everything as yo may not know that your RB took 40 carries to get those 80 yards and a TD or you wouldn't know that he fumbled twice, etc...Most leagues subtract for picks and fumbles so PPFD is like that but a positive unknown on a ticker.  I think PPFD will slowly take over from PPR.  It took years of saying what a gimmick the shift was in baseball before we start seeing how many runs it saves and everyone is doing it now.  
Keeping my answers in bold, but underlined my last comment

Thanks for all the thoughtful comments!

 
Keeping my answers in bold, but underlined my last comment

Thanks for all the thoughtful comments!
Yes, good discussion.  I disagree, but respect your opinion.

Don't have much to add, but as for the last point, I more rely on box scores than tickers.  I don't open every single one of my 10 live scoring apps all the time, but I might quickly google an espn box score and quickly glance at receptions/yards and carries/yards.

If/When ESPN, Google, etc add a column in the box score that says "first downs' then I will be open to it.  But I don't see that happening and I don't see it overtaking PPR.  But we will see.

 
This is excellent information and reinforces my thought about only allowing it for receptions.  Do you know the breakdown for receptions (or anyone).  Also, how many 1st down to QB's get running or catching the ball?  Thank you for this Jedi
When I re-read this, I meant to clarify that this was the average for the Top-5 at those positions, over the last 4 years.  Sorry if there was any confusion.  The top-5 QB's have averaged 14.51 first downs over the past four years.

I have our scoring set for total first downs scored by that player.  With MFL, you can set it to differentiate between passing, rushing, receiving or total first downs...so I don't have the answer for receiving-specific first downs.

I'm not sure why you would limit it to only receptions, though.  In my opinion, any first down achieved gives the player's team another four chances to possibly put points on the board, so I would want to reward (give points for) first downs regardless of how it was achieved.  Example: WR sweep for 15 yards and a first down vs. a catch for 15 yards and a first down.  Either way- his team moved 15 yards and gained four more chances to keep moving and possibly score...but you're putting far more value on the catch for 15 vs. the rush for 15.

 
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This is excellent information and reinforces my thought about only allowing it for receptions.  Do you know the breakdown for receptions (or anyone).  Also, how many 1st down to QB's get running or catching the ball?  Thank you for this Jedi
Part of the value of getting rid of ppr and going with ppfd is aligning better with real value to a team. Getting a first down on 3rd and 1 is a lot more important than catching a 1 yard pass on first down. Running first downs are very valuable and not rewarding them kind of kills the point of it imo.

 
'm not sure why you would limit it to only receptions, though.  In my opinion, any first down achieved gives the player's team another four chances to possibly put points on the board, so I would want to reward (give points for) first downs regardless of how it was achieved.  Example: WR sweep for 15 yards and a first down vs. a catch for 15 yards and a first down.  Either way- his team moved 15 yards and gained four more chances to keep moving and possibly score...but you're putting far more value on the catch for 15 vs. the rush for 15.


Part of the value of getting rid of ppr and going with ppfd is aligning better with real value to a team. Getting a first down on 3rd and 1 is a lot more important than catching a 1 yard pass on first down. Running first downs are very valuable and not rewarding them kind of kills the point of it imo.
Just for clarity,. I actually agree with both your comments.  However, I do think there is a reasonable argument to be made to try and even out positional value a little, while rewarding the actual play on the field AND making it user friendly or easy.  The bold above is 100% agreed and why I think PPR is the silliest rule and I don't understand how it became so widely embraced???  I think the "need" for positional value to be so even has really hurt the actual value of actual performance side that I think needs to be higher.

I think PPFD should be used and I don't think PPR is a good rule

I will try and find out the breakdowns of all 1st down and not just the top 5; if anyone else has that data it would be appreciated as well.

 
On Football perspective I found this interesting nugget

"Brian Burke of Advanced Football Analytics fame, helped me determine the value of first down. His research concluded that a first down was worth about 9 marginal yards."

This is inline with rewarding a point for a 1st down as most scoring is a point for 10 yards (on RB's and WR's)

I also saw that QB's throw for a 1st down on on 35% of their attempts.  I am not sure what the %'s for the other positions are, but I don't want to create greater positional discrepancies either.  More data to be collected, but I need to get working

 
Liquid Tension said:
Just for clarity,. I actually agree with both your comments.  However, I do think there is a reasonable argument to be made to try and even out positional value a little, while rewarding the actual play on the field AND making it user friendly or easy.  The bold above is 100% agreed and why I think PPR is the silliest rule and I don't understand how it became so widely embraced???  I think the "need" for positional value to be so even has really hurt the actual value of actual performance side that I think needs to be higher.

I think PPFD should be used and I don't think PPR is a good rule

I will try and find out the breakdowns of all 1st down and not just the top 5; if anyone else has that data it would be appreciated as well.
Just to play Devil's advocate, I think there is a lot of skill that goes into the act of catching the ball.
1- A player has to adjust his route to the defense and be on the same wavelength as the QB.
2- A player then has to run the route correctly AND know when to break it off and do scramble drill.
3- He has to actually catch a ball being thrown at him at high velocity.
4- All while having one, two or even three defenders doing their very best to disrupt the catch.
5- Assuming he isn't tackled immediately, he then has to transition to a RB, tuck it under the correct arm, and try and advance the ball.

I think it's worth scoring PPR, just as much as I think scoring a first down is important.  But I realize that all leagues have their differences in opinions.  That's why we love this game.

 
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Just to play Devil's advocate, I think there is a lot of skill that goes into the act of catching the ball.
1- A player has to adjust his route to the defense and be on the same wavelength as the QB.
2- A player then has to run the route correctly AND know when to break it off and do scramble drill.
3- He has to actually catch a ball being thrown at him at high velocity.
4- All while having one, two or even three defenders doing their very best to disrupt the catch.
5- Assuming he isn't tackled immediately, he then has to transition to a RB, tuck it under the correct arm, and try and advance the ball.

I think it's worth scoring PPR, just as much as I think scoring a first down is important.  But I realize that all leagues have their differences in opinions.  That's why we love this game.
The act of catching a ball isn't what is at stake (what you list is correct), it is how valuable it is to the team by itself.  A shovel pass or a bubble screen pass isn't very hard to catch and has no value unless the running side comes through.     A forward pass you are already getting the yards for the catch (everything you described gets you those points/yards) and then you also get any yards as a RB afterward.  A RB only gets the yards beyond the LOS.

from PFF in 2018"

"I’ve spent a lot of time in this space critiquing some of the most commonly used metrics (e.g. passer rating, yards per carry, etc.) and arguing for other metrics as being unfairly overlooked by the sabermetric and fantasy communities. Of all these statistics, I’m not sure anything is as underutilized as “first downs.” First downs extend drives and have a real positive impact on the game, far more so than anything like completion percentage or catch percentage. In 2014, Chase Stuart and Brian Burke found that a first down is worth the equivalent of 0.55 expected points or 8.7 yards.

Leagues that award fantasy points for first downs are also widely becoming more popular in lieu of the now industry-standard PPR scoring. It makes sense too. " 

 
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I'm actually thinking a .5 PPFD might make some sense as a hybrid, addition to .5 PPR for the purposes of introducing super-flex to a 14-team league (redraft).

I have never felt like 14-team super-flex has been viable due to bye weeks.   Even without bye weeks, if a team suffers an injury and finds itself with only one starting QB, it just doesn't seem fair for that team to be stuck taking 9-10 points (on average) from their 4th WR or 3rd RB Super-Flex, while a team with a second viable starting QBs might be able to average 17-18 points from their QB2 (super-flex).   In my mind, that's too much of a disadvantage for merely having one of your QBs on bye or injured.

First down scoring isn't going to completely bridge the gap, but maybe adding it in conjunction with a larger penalty for interceptions gets it close enough that I'm comfortable telling the team stuck with 1 starting QB to make do with the RB/WR super-flex.    

Anybody else do something like this to make super-flex work in a 12 or 14-team league?

 

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