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On 5/21/2021 at 9:02 AM, IvanKaramazov said:

IMO, right-wingers (a group that includes me) tend to have a blind spot when it comes to "white privilege."  Admittedly, the term itself is probably poorly chosen, but the phenomenon that it describes is pretty obviously real. 

You're right of course that Lebron's kids are probably going to have a much easier time going through life than my kids.  But that's not the point.  When people talk about white privilege, they don't mean "Every white person has it easier than every black person."  That would be silly, and pointing to Lebron would be a good and easy refutation of that argument.  What they mean is more like "All else equal, black people tend to have a harder time than white people," and that argument seems to be quite clearly true. 

If I imagine a guy who is exactly like me -- an educated, middle-aged guy with a conventional family life, a cushy upper-middle class job, healthy IRAs, chiseled good looks, etc. -- only he's black, his life is going to be at least a little harder than mine.  He'll get stopped by the police more often than I do, he'll have his authority questioned way more often than mine is, he'll constantly walk around wondering whether every sideways look directed his way was due to racism or whether it something more mundane, etc. None of those are back-breakers, but I don't doubt that they add up over time.

Maybe a better way of thinking about it is to think of it in terms of overlapping distributions.  In the "Biden vs. Girls Sports" thread, we talk a lot about how men are better at sports than women.  We all understand that that doesn't mean that every man is better than every woman.  It just means that if we think of "sports ability" as being a bell curve, men have a higher mean ability than women, but their distributions overlap.  Some women are better than some men, and a few women are better than most men.  But no women are better than the top men, and all women are worse than they would be if they were male, all else equal.  Conceived that way, it would make sense to talk about "male privilege" in the sporting world, because men collectively are just better at sports in a broad, population-level sense.

"White privilege" is basically the same thing.  White people have it easier in life in a broad, population-level sense.  I see that as about as controversial as sex differences in sports, which is to say that it's not controversial at all.

Obviously the solutions here are different, but the basic concepts are pretty similar.

But they use the term for everybody.  Without knowing anything about a person except he is white, the person is labeled as having 'white privilege' and it is used in a derogatory manor.  Sure wealth gets you privileges.  But so do athletes.  Black athletes are some of the most privileged people at schools and universities.   Tons of white people grow up poor, with broken families, abused, sick parents to take care of and all other kinds of situations that are anything but privilege.  To me, the whole concept because a person has white skin they lived some privileged fairtale live is extremely insulting.   It is a derogatory term.  There is no ands, ifs or buts about it.  I despise the term.  

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30 minutes ago, jon_mx said:

To me, the whole concept because a person has white skin they lived some privileged fairtale live is extremely insulting.   It is a derogatory term.

The key part again here is the bolded.....

That’s because you are misrepresenting what it means, you may have chosen for the term to mean that to you but that doesn’t make it what it actually means. 

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32 minutes ago, jon_mx said:

But they use the term for everybody.  Without knowing anything about a person except he is white, the person is labeled as having 'white privilege' and it is used in a derogatory manor.  Sure wealth gets you privileges.  But so do athletes.  Black athletes are some of the most privileged people at schools and universities.   Tons of white people grow up poor, with broken families, abused, sick parents to take care of and all other kinds of situations that are anything but privilege.  To me, the whole concept because a person has white skin they lived some privileged fairtale live is extremely insulting.   It is a derogatory term.  There is no ands, ifs or buts about it.  I despise the term.  

The bolded is not what white privilege is. 

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29 minutes ago, jon_mx said:

To me, the whole concept because a person has white skin they lived some privileged fairtale live is extremely insulting.

That would be terrible.  Good thing that this is not what the term is supposed to mean.   I'm sure if you look hard enough you'll find someone that meant it that way, but that is like my technically correct definition of racism earlier in the thread.  Neither are particular useful in such discussions.

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3 minutes ago, dkp993 said:

The key part again here is the bolded.....

That’s because you are misrepresenting what it means, you may have chosen for the term to mean that to you but that doesn’t make it what it actually means. 

 

3 minutes ago, bigbottom said:

The bolded is not what white privilege is. 

 

Just now, Bottomfeeder Sports said:

That would be terrible.  Good thing that this is not what the term is supposed to mean.   I'm sure if you look hard enough you'll find someone that meant it that way, but that is like my technically correct definition of racism earlier in the thread.  Neither are particular useful in such discussions.

3 for 3. 

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3 minutes ago, dkp993 said:

 

 

3 for 3. 

0 for 3.  That is exactly how it is used.  That may not be how ivory tower elites use the term, but that is how the term is used online.  It is a f-ing derogatory term.  Where do you guys live?  

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6 minutes ago, dkp993 said:

 

 

3 for 3. 

Unfortunately some government programs specifically exclude white males.  

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Posted (edited)
17 minutes ago, jon_mx said:

0 for 3.  That is exactly how it is used.  That may not be how ivory tower elites use the term, but that is how the term is used online.  It is a f-ing derogatory term.  Where do you guys live?  

I don’t live online. That may be part of the issue. 

And to be clear, I’m not meaning that as a slight. The only place I frequent on line is this place. You may very well be right that this is how people use the term on Twitter or whatever other forums people frequent on line. But that’s not how I hear the term used. 

Edited by bigbottom
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21 minutes ago, jon_mx said:

0 for 3.  That is exactly how it is used.  That may not be how ivory tower elites use the term, but that is how the term is used online.  It is a f-ing derogatory term.  Where do you guys live?  

Ivory tower elite’s. Lol.  Unreal.  You literally could not be more wrong.

And just because some angry white men online distort the meaning of something it doesn’t mean that something is now changed.  But you do you Jon, I know I’m not going to move the needle 1 iota with this conversation.  Have a good night.  

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Posted (edited)
33 minutes ago, jon_mx said:

0 for 3.  That is exactly how it is used.  That may not be how ivory tower elites use the term, but that is how the term is used online.  It is a f-ing derogatory term.  Where do you guys live?  

Actually I grew up in a neighborhood that positioned me for what turned out to be much better schools than if I had lived 10 miles to east, or the south, or the west.  (10 miles to the north might have been a bit better, but out of financial reach.)  If I had been black, or more accurately had my parents been black they would not have been allowed via neighborhood covenants still enforceable at that time to buy (with a reasonable mortgage rate not available to borrowers of color) into the neighborhood.  

Now I haven't lived there for a very a long and times have changed as far as these kinds of things being legal.  And I certainly benefitted.  But I also benefitted from having parents that grew up in poverty that worked hard and constantly, demonstrated the value of education despite both being high school drop outs, and had dreams for their kids.  So yes it would be insulting to their sacrifices, to the hard work I did as a student and forty years of continuous employment (including working 60 hour weeks while taking 15 semester hours for three of my college years) to suggest that I/we were given a fairy tale life on a silver platter.  But it would also be dishonest to suggest that there wasn't benefits to being white.  And one of those benefits that continues long after those covenants became unenforceable is the wealth that was accumulated from that hard work.

That is no longer where I live, but I enjoyed some "white privilege" to get where I am today.  And there is no guilt associated with that admission, just a recognition of the truth,  of the reality.   And that is just the glaring example.  God only knows the numerous subtle ones.

Edited by Bottomfeeder Sports
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9 minutes ago, dkp993 said:

Ivory tower elite’s. Lol.  Unreal.  You literally could not be more wrong.

And just because some angry white men online distort the meaning of something it doesn’t mean that something is now changed.  But you do you Jon, I know I’m not going to move the needle 1 iota with this conversation.  Have a good night.  

It is not angry white men misusing the line.  It is 'shut your white privilege ### up'.  The term makes me want to punch someone in the face.   It is derogatory.  You are white, you are privilege.  It is presumptuous bigoted bullcrap that is thrown in people's faces who they have no clue about.  

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11 minutes ago, jon_mx said:

It is not angry white men misusing the line.  It is 'shut your white privilege ### up'.  The term makes me want to punch someone in the face.   It is derogatory.  You are white, you are privilege.  It is presumptuous bigoted bullcrap that is thrown in people's faces who they have no clue about.  

Lots of stupid things said online Jon by all kinds of people.  That doesn’t make the thing said any more valid.  

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Posted (edited)
21 minutes ago, jon_mx said:

It is not angry white men misusing the line.  It is 'shut your white privilege ### up'.  The term makes me want to punch someone in the face.   It is derogatory.  You are white, you are privilege.  It is presumptuous bigoted bullcrap that is thrown in people's faces who they have no clue about.  

I've never heard anyone use it like that. I'm not saying it doesn't happen. Im just saying maybe you are focused on the wrong people/usage.

Edited by tymarsas
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31 minutes ago, jon_mx said:

It is not angry white men misusing the line.  It is 'shut your white privilege ### up'.  The term makes me want to punch someone in the face.   It is derogatory.  You are white, you are privilege.  It is presumptuous bigoted bullcrap that is thrown in people's faces who they have no clue about.  

It does not sound like your online interactions are a positive force in your life. 

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2 hours ago, jon_mx said:

It is not angry white men misusing the line.  It is 'shut your white privilege ### up'.  The term makes me want to punch someone in the face.   It is derogatory.  You are white, you are privilege.  It is presumptuous bigoted bullcrap that is thrown in people's faces who they have no clue about.  

Stop associating with those people and your life will be much better.  I suspect there are just as many people online spreading racist and hate speech.

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9 hours ago, jon_mx said:

It is not angry white men misusing the line.  It is 'shut your white privilege ### up'.  The term makes me want to punch someone in the face.   It is derogatory.  You are white, you are privilege.  It is presumptuous bigoted bullcrap that is thrown in people's faces who they have no clue about.  

Just curious. What percent of liberals and/or people of color do you think have this “shut your white privilege ### up” viewpoint?

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37 minutes ago, Juxtatarot said:

Just curious. What percent of liberals and/or people of color do you think have this “shut your white privilege ### up” viewpoint?

And how it has been used on this board...has been in the proper...hey, I grew up white middle class, I know I have had some advantages over others.

I have never seen the "shut your white privilege..." side of it on here.  If you only judge things from the Steven A Smith style of it with Tebow...then yeah, I can get the militant nature of opposing.  But I don't see that as the case even close to a majority of the time.

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2 minutes ago, sho nuff said:

And how it has been used on this board...has been in the proper...hey, I grew up white middle class, I know I have had some advantages over others.

I have never seen the "shut your white privilege..." side of it on here.  If you only judge things from the Steven A Smith style of it with Tebow...then yeah, I can get the militant nature of opposing.  But I don't see that as the case even close to a majority of the time.

There should be a lot of agreement between liberals and conservatives about white privilege, especially on this board.  We should mostly all agree that dismissing opinions of white people merely because they’re white is wrong.  Inferring that all white people have it easy in life is also wrong. However, it’s also wrong to deny that there can never be an advantage to being white in our society.

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11 hours ago, dkp993 said:

The key part again here is the bolded.....

That’s because you are misrepresenting what it means, you may have chosen for the term to mean that to you but that doesn’t make it what it actually means. 

 

11 hours ago, Bottomfeeder Sports said:

That would be terrible.  Good thing that this is not what the term is supposed to mean.   I'm sure if you look hard enough you'll find someone that meant it that way, but that is like my technically correct definition of racism earlier in the thread.  Neither are particular useful in such discussions.

It doesn't matter what it means, it matters how it's used and @jon_mx is ABSOLUTELY correct about it.  It's being used as a weapon against whites - much like the term "RACIST".  That term - RACIST! - has lost all meaning because it's not used against actual racists, but against people who don't bend the knee to the liberal orthodoxy.

You can talk about technicalities all you want and feel superior that you got someone on a technicality, but that's not even close to how the term "white privilege" is being used.  At all.

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1 minute ago, BladeRunner said:

 

It doesn't matter what it means, it matters how it's used and @jon_mx is ABSOLUTELY correct about it.  It's being used as a weapon against whites - much like the term "RACIST".  That term - RACIST! - has lost all meaning because it's not used against actual racists, but against people who don't bend the knee to the liberal orthodoxy.

You can talk about technicalities all you want and feel superior that you got someone on a technicality, but that's not even close to how the term "white privilege" is being used.  At all.

Where is it being used like that though?

I certainly don't see it here at all.  And very little off board either.  Yes...you get examples where it is...like Steven A as I mentioned above...but by far I have not seen that as some majority use of it.  Often I see it complained about more from the side jon is taking than anything. Just people angry that it was ever pointed out at all.

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10 hours ago, dkp993 said:

Ivory tower elite’s. Lol.  Unreal.  You literally could not be more wrong.

And just because some angry white men online distort the meaning of something it doesn’t mean that something is now changed.  But you do you Jon, I know I’m not going to move the needle 1 iota with this conversation.  Have a good night.  

It's not angry white men that are distorting the meaning, it's people on the left.  Like the word "RACIST" as I explained above.

You can deny it all you want, but that is EXACTLY how it is being used.  I mean, you're a smart guy.  Everyone knows what it means but it's how it's used is the problem. 

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1 hour ago, Juxtatarot said:

There should be a lot of agreement between liberals and conservatives about white privilege, especially on this board.  We should mostly all agree that dismissing opinions of white people merely because they’re white is wrong.  Inferring that all white people have it easy in life is also wrong. However, it’s also wrong to deny that there can never be an advantage to being white in our society.

Then perhaps a better term than "white privilege" should be used to describe what you just posted.  Because I'd say most of the time when someone uses that phrase it's likely in some insulting manner

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15 minutes ago, Ramblin Wreck said:

Then perhaps a better term than "white privilege" should be used to describe what you just posted.  Because I'd say most of the time when someone uses that phrase it's likely in some insulting manner

It seems like conservatives mostly agree with you.  And liberals rarely see the insulting nature that Jon describes.  It probably is pretty telling of the bubbles we all live in.

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Posted (edited)
26 minutes ago, Ramblin Wreck said:

Then perhaps a better term than "white privilege" should be used to describe what you just posted.  Because I'd say most of the time when someone uses that phrase it's likely in some insulting manner

It’s a fair point. Often times these things get named poorly. As someone who’s had to scratch and claw for everything I have I understand how the term “privilege” could rub someone wrong or how it could imply easy.

But on the other side of that coin could you see how denying the existence of white privilege could be hurtful to somebody to somebody of color?*
 

 

 

*Not saying you’re doing or have done that, we’re just talking philosophically here. 

Edited by dkp993
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Just now, dkp993 said:

It’s a fair point. Often times these things get named poorly. As someone who’s had to scratch and claw for everything I have I understand how the term “privilege” could rub someone wrong or how it couldn’t imply easy.

But on the other side of that coin could you see how denying existence of white privilege could be hurtful to somebody to somebody of color?*
 

 

 

*Not saying you’re doing or have done that, we’re just talking philosophically here. 

I’m not sure it’s a fair point. IMO it’s not the phrasing of “white privilege” that many conservatives find offensive, it’s the idea behind it. 
It’s far easier to accept racism as something that happens to other people. It’s far more difficult to accept the idea that one benefits from that racism (especially, as in the case of most conservatives, if one is not racist.) 

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6 minutes ago, dkp993 said:

It’s a fair point. Often times these things get named poorly. As someone who’s had to scratch and claw for everything I have I understand how the term “privilege” could rub someone wrong or how it could imply easy.

But on the other side of that coin could you see how denying the existence of white privilege could be hurtful to somebody to somebody of color?*
 

I think you're hitting on exactly the issue @dkp993

And as usual, the fact people are unable to have much nuance and try to see the other person's side is a big part of the problem. 

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2 minutes ago, timschochet said:

I’m not sure it’s a fair point. IMO it’s not the phrasing of “white privilege” that many conservatives find offensive, it’s the idea behind it. 
It’s far easier to accept racism as something that happens to other people. It’s far more difficult to accept the idea that one benefits from that racism (especially, as in the case of most conservatives, if one is not racist.) 

Maybe and that’s what I’ve been discussing for pages now.  But that’s not what RW said and that’s what I responded too. 

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4 minutes ago, Joe Bryant said:

I think you're hitting on exactly the issue @dkp993

And as usual, the fact people are unable to have much nuance and try to see the other person's side is a big part of the problem. 

Thanks.  
 

I agree, empathy is part of the problem too.  Though I would image if the word “privilege” invokes a defensive response in someone empathy is a hard place for them to get too.

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31 minutes ago, dkp993 said:

It’s a fair point. Often times these things get named poorly. As someone who’s had to scratch and claw for everything I have I understand how the term “privilege” could rub someone wrong or how it could imply easy.

But on the other side of that coin could you see how denying the existence of white privilege could be hurtful to somebody to somebody of color?*
 

 

 

*Not saying you’re doing or have done that, we’re just talking philosophically here. 

Just like many love to tell others here they aren’t allowed to tell someone else how they feel it’s the same thing. You want people to admit some have more inheriant privileges than others choose a better term. 
 

Many can’t discuss it without including race but most of the privilege is economic no matter your color.  How often you get pulled over by a cop may be racial but we can’t discuss that here without the race cops firing bullets everywhere. 

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25 minutes ago, dkp993 said:

Maybe and that’s what I’ve been discussing for pages now.  But that’s not what RW said and that’s what I responded too. 

Tim’s garbage is what makes it impossible to discuss here. Think like him or he labels you and the discussion goes down the crapper.  

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1 minute ago, Ramblin Wreck said:

Just like many love to tell others here they aren’t allowed to tell someone else how they feel it’s the same thing. You want people to admit some have more inheriant privileges than others choose a better term. 
 

Many can’t discuss it without including race but most of the privilege is economic no matter your color.  How often you get pulled over by a cop may be racial but we can’t discuss that here without the race cops firing bullets everywhere. 

So no to my second paragraph then?

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22 minutes ago, dkp993 said:

It’s a fair point. Often times these things get named poorly. As someone who’s had to scratch and claw for everything I have I understand how the term “privilege” could rub someone wrong or how it could imply easy.

But on the other side of that coin could you see how denying the existence of white privilege could be hurtful to somebody to somebody of color?*
 

 

 

*Not saying you’re doing or have done that, we’re just talking philosophically here. 

I’m having a hard time understanding the bolded.  Why would my opinion of something be hurtful?  The answer, I think, is that the type of person who would be hurt by my opinion is the type of person who finds excuses for failure instead of opportunities to overcome adversity.

Yes, white privilege does exist.  Most people have some sort of privilege or disadvantage.  I grew up a Polish kid in the 70s; I heard way more “stupid pollock” jokes than anything about black people.  Among African Americans, Nigerian privilege exists.  According to this Ozy article, it is the most successful ethnic group in the US.

https://www.ozy.com/around-the-world/the-most-successful-ethnic-group-in-the-u-s-may-surprise-you/86885/

Quote

At an Onyejekwe family get-together, you can’t throw a stone without hitting someone with a master’s degree. Doctors, lawyers, engineers, professors — every family member is highly educated and professionally successful, and many have a lucrative side gig to boot. Parents and grandparents share stories of whose kid just won an academic honor, achieved an athletic title or performed in the school play. Aunts, uncles and cousins celebrate one another’s job promotions or the new nonprofit one of them just started. To the Ohio-based Onyejekwes, this level of achievement is normal. They’re Nigerian-American — it’s just what they do.

Focus on education, family units, hard work, all in the presence of white privilege... the secrets to success are not secrets, they are right there for us to see if we choose to see them.  I think it would be more productive to work on improving these positives than blaming excuses.

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15 minutes ago, Ramblin Wreck said:

Tim’s garbage is what makes it impossible to discuss here. Think like him or he labels you and the discussion goes down the crapper.  

I normally don’t ever respond to this poster but I’m doing it here to make a point: I don’t think I’ve ever written a post as rude, or as inaccurate, about another person posting here. He is guilty in this post of everything he wrongfully accuses me of. And he does it all the time (which is the main reason I stopped responding to him.) 

If we’re truly looking to have better discussions in this forum, then this is the sort of post that shouldn’t be allowed. 

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12 minutes ago, JerryG said:

I’m having a hard time understanding the bolded.  Why would my opinion of something be hurtful?  The answer, I think, is that the type of person who would be hurt by my opinion is the type of person who finds excuses for failure instead of opportunities to overcome adversity.

Yes, white privilege does exist.  Most people have some sort of privilege or disadvantage.  I grew up a Polish kid in the 70s; I heard way more “stupid pollock” jokes than anything about black people.  Among African Americans, Nigerian privilege exists.  According to this Ozy article, it is the most successful ethnic group in the US.

https://www.ozy.com/around-the-world/the-most-successful-ethnic-group-in-the-u-s-may-surprise-you/86885/

Focus on education, family units, hard work, all in the presence of white privilege... the secrets to success are not secrets, they are right there for us to see if we choose to see them.  I think it would be more productive to work on improving these positives than blaming excuses.

Re: your first paragraph and opinions. I agree with your sentiment when speaking about individuals. But when you expand that to larger groups opinions lead to actions (or inaction).  So yes one individual opinion shouldn’t affect you as the individual when you scale that up that becomes less true. 

In the second half of your post is largely the point I was making pages back.  We’re speaking about white privilege here because that’s what affects people of color in America, but anytime you’re in the majority it comes with advantages. Here in America whites are in the majority.  So yes there are other privileges/advantages in other areas. White privilege in and of itself has nothing to do with economics, It’s merely about the concept of if all things are equal between two people the white person will have and advantage vs the person of color here in America.

The reason I think it’s important that this is an acknowledged, and the whole reason I started talking about this pages ago is because there are people who will not acknowledge it, is that we can’t work on any of the things in your last paragraph without least starting from a place of common understanding. 

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Privilege means entitlement or special favors.  The examples of blacks being pulled over or being more closely watched in stores is not special favors or entitlement.  The objective should not be to tear down whites by belittling them, the objective should be that blacks get treated better.  White privilege completely misses the target and is accusatory innocent people.  Most whites do not receive anything that could be viewed as entitlements.   If white privilege was a thing, why are lower income rural whites the most under-represented people on ivy league campuses?

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5 minutes ago, timschochet said:

I normally don’t ever respond to this poster but I’m doing it here to make a point: I don’t think I’ve ever written a post as rude, or as inaccurate, about another person posting here. He is guilty in this post of everything he wrongfully accuses me of. And he does it all the time (which is the main reason I stopped responding to him.) 

If we’re truly looking to have better discussions in this forum, then this is the sort of post that shouldn’t be allowed. 

You have responded to my posts a hundred times by simply calling me a whiner or some derivative of that.  

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Posted (edited)
28 minutes ago, Ramblin Wreck said:

Tim’s garbage is what makes it impossible to discuss here. Think like him or he labels you and the discussion goes down the crapper.  

This is very true.   And many times it represents liberals on general. 

Don't subscribe to the idea of white privledge?  Well that must be because you're racist.

That just gets old and does not lead to any meaningful change

Edited by supermike80
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4 minutes ago, supermike80 said:

This is very true.   And many times it represents liberals on general. 

Don't subscribe to the idea of white privledge?  Well that must be because you're racist.

That just gets old and does not lead to any meaningful change

He doesn't use racist, he uses denier, which of course is associated with Nazis.

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3 minutes ago, supermike80 said:

This is very true.   And many times it represents liberals on general. 

Don't subscribe to the idea of white privledge?  Well that must be because you're racist.

That just gets old and does not lead to any meaningful change

Whats so frustrating about this response is that you obviously completely ignore my posts. Not less than 30 minutes ago I speculated that the main reason that so many conservatives are offended by the concept of white privilege is because they are NOT racist. 
Perhaps if you actually spent time reading me and relied less on your preconceived notions of what I’m about, we could have a constructive conversation some time. 

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8 minutes ago, supermike80 said:

That just gets old and does not lead to any meaningful change

I agree taking an extreme position (calling someone racist in this example) rarely leads anywhere good.  But that holds true for the opposite position too. Denying something exists because you as the individual don’t subscribe to it (you in the larger context not you being Mike) is certainly that persons right, but that doesn’t lead to meaningful change either.  

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2 minutes ago, jon_mx said:

He doesn't use racist, he uses denier, which of course is associated with Nazis.

And another example of either not reading, or more likely in your case, simply misremembering. I never associate denial with Nazis. And I’ve only used it on issues of science or fact, not on cultural or racial discussions like we’re having now. 

To your earlier point I have, in the past, called you a whiner. That was rude of me, and I apologized for it. I do so again. But I don’t believe I was ever rude enough to refer to your ideas as garbage, I have done that with a few other people. Those were not good posts and did nothing to contribute to the discussion here. That’s true whether I’m the one doing it or someone else. 

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Just now, timschochet said:

And another example of either not reading, or more likely in your case, simply misremembering. I never associate denial with Nazis. And I’ve only used it on issues of science or fact, not on cultural or racial discussions like we’re having now. 

To your earlier point I have, in the past, called you a whiner. That was rude of me, and I apologized for it. I do so again. But I don’t believe I was ever rude enough to refer to your ideas as garbage, I have done that with a few other people. Those were not good posts and did nothing to contribute to the discussion here. That’s true whether I’m the one doing it or someone else. 

The term denier is inherently associated with holocaust denier.  

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Just now, jon_mx said:

The term denier is inherently associated with holocaust denier.  

Not really. Evolution deniers, climate change deniers, anti-vaxxers, 9-11 truthers, flat-Earthers,  2020 election deniers- there’s lots of deniers out there before we get to the Holocaust. 
All of these folks are wrong. None of them are Nazis. 

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21 minutes ago, dkp993 said:

I agree taking an extreme position (calling someone racist in this example) rarely leads anywhere good.  But that holds true for the opposite position too. Denying something exists because you as the individual don’t subscribe to it (you in the larger context not you being Mike) is certainly that persons right, but that doesn’t lead to meaningful change either.  

Denying that whites are all privilege is different than denying that blacks are discriminated against.  IMHO, it is a terrible term which should be retired.

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1 hour ago, dkp993 said:

It’s a fair point. Often times these things get named poorly. As someone who’s had to scratch and claw for everything I have I understand how the term “privilege” could rub someone wrong or how it could imply easy.

But on the other side of that coin could you see how denying the existence of white privilege could be hurtful to somebody to somebody of color?*

On the first paragraph, I think this is spot on.  It's similar to "defund the police" -- just a really poorly chosen term that only serves to alienate the people who are most pivotal to engage/convince/draw into conversation.  Why are liberals so bad at messaging?  (note:  not directed at you or any individual personally)

On the second paragraph, I can see how it would frustrating.  Annoying.  Disappointing.   Hurtful?  I mean, at some point people need to toughen up and not be a victim.

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42 minutes ago, jon_mx said:

Privilege means entitlement or special favors.  The examples of blacks being pulled over or being more closely watched in stores is not special favors or entitlement.  The objective should not be to tear down whites by belittling them, the objective should be that blacks get treated better.  White privilege completely misses the target and is accusatory innocent people.  Most whites do not receive anything that could be viewed as entitlements.   If white privilege was a thing, why are lower income rural whites the most under-represented people on ivy league campuses?

jon, can you say more about your own personal experience with the concept of white privilege?  I'm trying to understand why this gets you so animated, but it's really hard to do that when all of your comments are so generic.   Have you experienced some type of negative spillover of white privilege?   Or can you expand any further on why this topic is so emotional for you?

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