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Remember when, around a year ago, a lot of people complained that this forum skewed left? (1 Viewer)

Not childish at all. I've talked about that for a while. It was meant to be laughing "with" but it seems most of the time I see I see it, it's trolling laughing "at" someone. 
Were this my board, using the laughing emoji in response to a debate point (as opposed to a joke) would be a 30-day suspension.

One thing that takes away from the experience of this board is that standards of discourse are not upheld. Ad hominem statements are typically allowed here if they meet some standard of "mildness", whereas use of ad hominem in political debate debate should instead result in a set number of warnings followed by a suspension for repeated infraction.

 
I’d guess I’d say your community is act 3 of Lord of the Flies right now and Piggy is running out of time. 
I'd ask for my own sake of curiosity: If you believe that to be true, why do you choose to still be here? 

That's not a "take it or leave it". Whatever we are to people, we are what we are. And have been for a while.

But if I thought a community was that broken, and I wasn't forced to be there, I'd have left a while back. 

I hope you stay. But I'm interested in what positives you see that outweigh this forum being "act 3 of Lord of the Flies right now and Piggy is running out of time" to you. 

 
Well good luck with all that. If the headaches are worth the clicks, you do you but don’t act all surprised at what you see happening. 
Joe has made it clear over and over that the forums actually lose money.  That the hassle and headaches.....are all to support something with a negative ROI.  

 
I'd ask for my own sake of curiosity: If you believe that to be true, why do you choose to still be here? 

That's not a "take it or leave it". Whatever we are to people, we are what we are. And have been for a while.

But if I thought a community was that broken, and I wasn't forced to be there, I'd have left a while back. 

I hope you stay. But I'm interested in what positives you see that outweigh this forum being "act 3 of Lord of the Flies right now and Piggy is running out of time" to you. 
Well as you can see by my activity, it has waned significantly. I still receive pms and notifications that send me here and then sick curiosity I suppose. Who doesn’t look at the car accident while they drive by?

 
You cannot get along with someone with whom you disagree? 
Depends how you want to define “get along with”.

I have found there are some posters that I won’t see eye to eye with on enough that its best to not reply to.  jon, for example.  When he and I would discuss anything, it turned into a back and forth that did nothing but clutter up threads.  It resulted in both of us being suspended at times and so on.  So it was best that I said to him I was done with the back and forth and will no longer reply to his posts.  I hold no animosity towards him...just better for all that we don’t get into the same stuff over and over.

 
Of course it's possible. Not without gatekeeping, no ... but obviously possible.
That’s disingenuous. For conversation to happen there have to be agreed upon sets of facts and that left the building a long time ago. The foundation doesn’t just have cracks, it exploded. 

 
Joe has made it clear over and over that the forums actually lose money.  That the hassle and headaches.....are all to support something with a negative ROI.  
Thanks Alex. To add though, I'm saying the ROI equation is not all financial. 

I like to think I'm mostly rational. The positives of the Community we have here outweigh to me the negatives of heartache, cost, time and lost customers who post here they're no longer going to support our business financially because of something they don't like on the forums. That's a pretty big weight on the "negative" side. But the value of community is bigger on the positive side. I'd love to make that even bigger. Which is why I talk about we can do that so often. 

 
Well as you can see by my activity, it has waned significantly. I still receive pms and notifications that send me here and then sick curiosity I suppose. Who doesn’t look at the car accident while they drive by?
Thanks for the reply. I don't agree but it helps to know what you think of our community. 

 
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Not true, I’m open to many discussions on abortion, fiscal policy, military, etc...  someone who states that people of different skin color wanting to be treated equal as a means to take vengeance on whites is not a statement of politics, it’s lunacy. 
Isn't it worth digging deeper to really understand what is going on?  I find that often when I see people's views as lunacy.....it's really just someone typing too quickly.  Or letting momentary emotion lead to inflammatory words.  Etc.   It's like a form of road rage - anonymous message board talk that isn't the way we would really engage IRL.  Because it takes extra time to type out coherent thoughts on a message board, compared to the time it takes to verbalize our thoughts in person.

How many of the heated conversations that turn into message board shouting would REALLY go that way IRL?

 
For conversation to happen there have to be agreed upon sets of facts and that left the building a long time ago. The foundation doesn’t just have cracks, it exploded. 
Understood, but that can be enforced. That enforcement, in practice, is executed by constraining the set of people allowed to engage based on willingness to follow both (a) the rules of discourse and debate and (b) Joe's house rules for this forum.

 
Thanks Alex. To add though, I'm saying the ROI equation is not all financial. 

I like to think I'm mostly rational. The positives of the Community we have here outweigh to me the negatives of heartache, cost, time and lost customers who post here they're no longer going to support our business financially because of something they don't like on the forums. That's a pretty big weight on the "negative" side. But the value of community is bigger on the positive side. I'd love to make that even bigger. Which is why I talk about we can do that so often. 
Yeah, I get that part too.  You have an emotional attachment to the forums, some of the people, etc.  "Community."  It makes sense to me. 

And truthfully I find some small doses of that community in here, which is why I stick around, although with periodic drifting away when things frustrate me --- like when I had to change my username from Michael J Fox to Michael Fox Fan in case someone thought "hey, is this the real MJF?"  ;)    But everytime I consider bailing on this place, I think about the friends I've made here, or the 10k running thread, or the weight loss thread.....etc.  And I don't want to walk away from the good stuff......

I'm appreciative that you continue to support the forums.   No idea how you stay sane doing it.  But thank you.

 
Isn't it worth digging deeper to really understand what is going on?  I find that often when I see people's views as lunacy.....it's really just someone typing too quickly.  Or letting momentary emotion lead to inflammatory words.  Etc.   It's like a form of road rage - anonymous message board talk that isn't the way we would really engage IRL.  Because it takes extra time to type out coherent thoughts on a message board, compared to the time it takes to verbalize our thoughts in person.

How many of the heated conversations that turn into message board shouting would REALLY go that way IRL?
To what end?

If a lot of these back and forth situations were IRL, it would just be a lot of polite fake smiling and then everyone leaving and saying they would never talk to those people again.  Doesn’t everyone have that one family member who you grin and bare it while they’re around, and then block them on Facebook and don’t speak to them for the next three years?

I find it even more futile here.  Has anyone changed their mind on anything of substance because of a message board poster they don’t know?

 
Not true, I’m open to many discussions on abortion, fiscal policy, military, etc...  someone who states that people of different skin color wanting to be treated equal as a means to take vengeance on whites is not a statement of politics, it’s lunacy. 
Can you see how your comments quoted above.....don't seem particularly compassionate, empathetic or open-minded?   I mean, you're basically saying "I'm open to discussions as long as they unfold according to the rules I've pre-ordained."   That's kind of the opposite of being "open" or "compassionate."

 
Understood, but that can be enforced. That enforcement, in practice, is executed by constraining the set of people allowed to engage based on willingness to follow both (a) the rules of discourse and debate and (b) Joe's house rules for this forum.
I agree and is basically what I was suggesting in the second half of this post:

https://forums.footballguys.com/topic/796715-remember-when-around-a-year-ago-a-lot-of-people-complained-that-this-forum-skewed-left/?do=findComment&comment=23399211

 
Can you see how your comments quoted above.....don't seem particularly compassionate, empathetic or open-minded?   I mean, you're basically saying "I'm open to discussions as long as they unfold according to the rules I've pre-ordained."   That's kind of the opposite of being "open" or "compassionate."
They’re not my rules, I didn’t create them. It’s not an open or compassion issue either.  If there’s not mutual respect, it’s just spinning wheels... people screaming into the ether. 

 
To what end?

If a lot of these back and forth situations were IRL, it would just be a lot of polite fake smiling and then everyone leaving and saying they would never talk to those people again.  Doesn’t everyone have that one family member who you grin and bare it while they’re around, and then block them on Facebook and don’t speak to them for the next three years?

I find it even more futile here.  Has anyone changed their mind on anything of substance because of a message board poster they don’t know?
On the first paragraph, my entire extended family are Trump supporters.   We see each other a few times per year.   I love them deeply, and I don't leave their house and say "never talking to these people again."  I have childhood/hometown friends and co-workers who fall into the same category.   (tangent:   a co-worker just confessed to me that his girlfriend works for Alex Jones.....yikes....)    But no, I don't block them on Facebook.  Why would I?  Just because we disagree?  My goal in life isn't to be surrounded by people who agree with me on every topic.  B-O-R-I-N-G.

If you find it futile here, then why are you here?   Is your sole purpose for being here to convince everyone that you are right?  And that they should bend to your will on everything?   I'm not trying to be a jerk, so sorry if the above comes across as aggressive or annoying.  I'm sincere with these questions.

 
I find it even more futile here.  Has anyone changed their mind on anything of substance because of a message board poster they don’t know?
Few people motivated to post here are open to changing their minds. I agree with you there and I cop to it personally, as well.

However: Consider that the arguments you may make against an entrenched debate opponent are better considered as aimed at an undecided set of thread readers "on the sidelines".

 
On the first paragraph, my entire extended family are Trump supporters.   We see each other a few times per year.   I love them deeply, and I don't leave their house and say "never talking to these people again."  I have childhood/hometown friends and co-workers who fall into the same category.   (tangent:   a co-worker just confessed to me that his girlfriend works for Alex Jones.....yikes....)    But no, I don't block them on Facebook.  Why would I?  Just because we disagree?  My goal in life isn't to be surrounded by people who agree with me on every topic.  B-O-R-I-N-G.

If you find it futile here, then why are you here?   Is your sole purpose for being here to convince everyone that you are right?  And that they should bend to your will on everything?   I'm not trying to be a jerk, so sorry if the above comes across as aggressive or annoying.  I'm sincere with these questions.
I don’t find the questions aggressive or annoying. I’m not here to be right (internet street cred doesn’t do much for me), I’m generally not here at all but like I mentioned to Joe, I get pms and other notifications that send me here. I’ve been here the past 24 hours responding to direct questions mainly. 
 

edit: let me expound on this more. I worked in politics for a long time, for a Republican actually. Great guy, made lots of friends both left and right, had a ton of fun.  There was almost always mutual respect and common ground. At some point the tea party came into play and barriers were crossed and the mutual respect thresholds were breached to an insanely high degree (emphasis on insane). I left the life but still have a lot of friends in that area, again both left and right, and we get along great.  The new faction became very vocal though, they shout things they know are lies to pander.  There’s not goodwill there, no willingness to even try. They don’t want discourse, they want to win.  For those people, I’ve got no time. 

 
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They’re not my rules, I didn’t create them. It’s not an open or compassion issue either.  If there’s not mutual respect, it’s just spinning wheels... people screaming into the ether. 
How many posters in here do you think honestly believe or would admit out loud that "they were the ones who started a conflict first"?   It's like Israel-Palestine at this point.  Everyone thinks "oh, the other guy started this, I'm just reacting to his/her bad behavior."

To quote Pulp Fiction:  "but that #### ain't right."  I learned a few years back that most of the time when people lash out at me, they are reacting to something that they think I either did or said or meant.   Most of the time they think I started it.  And guess what?  Most of the time, I think the other person started it.

So does that leave me at an impasse with the world at large?  Or can I make a choice, in the moment, not to react in kind when others lash out at me?   Can I make a choice, in the moment, to ask clarifying questions?  To seek to understand rather than to be understood?

Anyway, random thoughts from a dude on the line.  I'm going back to work, even though I don't like my boss and hope she gets fired.  :)     [note:  I have minimal compassion for my boss]

 
How many posters in here do you think honestly believe or would admit out loud that "they were the ones who started a conflict first"?   It's like Israel-Palestine at this point.  Everyone thinks "oh, the other guy started this, I'm just reacting to his/her bad behavior."

To quote Pulp Fiction:  "but that #### ain't right."  I learned a few years back that most of the time when people lash out at me, they are reacting to something that they think I either did or said or meant.   Most of the time they think I started it.  And guess what?  Most of the time, I think the other person started it.

So does that leave me at an impasse with the world at large?  Or can I make a choice, in the moment, not to react in kind when others lash out at me?   Can I make a choice, in the moment, to ask clarifying questions?  To seek to understand rather than to be understood?

Anyway, random thoughts from a dude on the line.  I'm going back to work, even though I don't like my boss and hope she gets fired.  :)     [note:  I have minimal compassion for my boss]
Fair enough, and expounded by editing my previous post. I feel like I left out information that is relevant. 

 
I learned a few years back that most of the time when people lash out at me, they are reacting to something that they think I either did or said or meant.   Most of the time they think I started it.  And guess what?  Most of the time, I think the other person started it.
Yup.

Same as Day 1. 

I do think you're highlighting some of why you're such a good poster here though. You get it. 

If one were to think community is futile and screaming into the ether unless everyone has true mutual respect for each other, online forums with many people will be a challenge.

 
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Thanks Alex. To add though, I'm saying the ROI equation is not all financial. 

I like to think I'm mostly rational. The positives of the Community we have here outweigh to me the negatives of heartache, cost, time and lost customers who post here they're no longer going to support our business financially because of something they don't like on the forums. That's a pretty big weight on the "negative" side. But the value of community is bigger on the positive side. I'd love to make that even bigger. Which is why I talk about we can do that so often. 
Yea Joe I could never quite understand how someone get so offended by something they read that they would drop their subscription. 

I must admit though after my first and only suspension I was pretty dang aggravated. I felt like man I've been a loyal customer for a long time and this is how they treat me. I'll show them I just won't renew my subscription. Thing is you or the moderator were right. Even though it was something I would have said in real life it had been made clear that it wasn't acceptable here. So it was my own fault.

I really enjoy reading these forums been doing it for many many years. Plus I love the subscribers contest. This place can be addicting. I will be a customer for a long time. You guys put out a quality product. 

 
I'm an anti Trump Republican.  I think he's done immeasurable damage to the party and to the country.  The Republican Party is now the place where all the anti-science and conspiracy theory folks reside, and that's sad...we used to try and win by having a more optimistic and hopeful message.  Now we tear others down because we don't want to face actual facts.  Trump is largely to blame for this.  I'm not saying he created anti science and conspiracy theories, but he sure gave them legitimacy....... 

Having said that, my studies at the Seminary have made me far more liberal when it comes to social issues that I ever was before.  I can't reconcile the message of the Gospel with the "America first" crowd any longer.  The US as the richest and most powerful country in the world DOES have responsibilities to help lift other people. 

"To whom much is given, much will be required." Luke 12:48

 
Yea Joe I could never quite understand how someone get so offended by something they read that they would drop their subscription. 

I must admit though after my first and only suspension I was pretty dang aggravated. I felt like man I've been a loyal customer for a long time and this is how they treat me. I'll show them I just won't renew my subscription. Thing is you or the moderator were right. Even though it was something I would have said in real life it had been made clear that it wasn't acceptable here. So it was my own fault.

I really enjoy reading these forums been doing it for many many years. Plus I love the subscribers contest. This place can be addicting. I will be a customer for a long time. You guys put out a quality product. 
I understand. Most people don't ever get to the point you did though and come back. It's literally a cost of doing business. Thanks for being here. 

 
I'm an anti Trump Republican.  I think he's done immeasurable damage to the party and to the country.  The Republican Party is now the place where all the anti-science and conspiracy theory folks reside, and that's sad...we used to try and win by having a more optimistic and hopeful message.  Now we tear others down because we don't want to face actual facts.  Trump is largely to blame for this.  I'm not saying he created anti science and conspiracy theories, but he sure gave them legitimacy....... 

Having said that, my studies at the Seminary have made me far more liberal when it comes to social issues that I ever was before.  I can't reconcile the message of the Gospel with the "America first" crowd any longer.  The US as the richest and most powerful country in the world DOES have responsibilities to help lift other people. 

"To whom much is given, much will be required." Luke 12:48
Best post this forum has had maybe ever. 

 
Having said that, my studies at the Seminary have made me far more liberal when it comes to social issues that I ever was before.  I can't reconcile the message of the Gospel with the "America first" crowd any longer.  The US as the richest and most powerful country in the world DOES have responsibilities to help lift other people. 

"To whom much is given, much will be required." Luke 12:48
That would make a great new thread. You should start that. 

Some wlll say we don't do enough. Others will say we do more than we should.

Maybe naive, but that might be a good discussion if people wanted to try. 

 
I'm an anti Trump Republican.  I think he's done immeasurable damage to the party and to the country.  The Republican Party is now the place where all the anti-science and conspiracy theory folks reside, and that's sad...we used to try and win by having a more optimistic and hopeful message.  Now we tear others down because we don't want to face actual facts.  Trump is largely to blame for this.  I'm not saying he created anti science and conspiracy theories, but he sure gave them legitimacy....... 

Having said that, my studies at the Seminary have made me far more liberal when it comes to social issues that I ever was before.  I can't reconcile the message of the Gospel with the "America first" crowd any longer.  The US as the richest and most powerful country in the world DOES have responsibilities to help lift other people. 

"To whom much is given, much will be required." Luke 12:48
The US does more than any other country to help lift other people, both from a government perspective and from private citizens via charity and volunteering. 

 
Yea Joe I could never quite understand how someone get so offended by something they read that they would drop their subscription. 

I must admit though after my first and only suspension I was pretty dang aggravated. I felt like man I've been a loyal customer for a long time and this is how they treat me. I'll show them I just won't renew my subscription. Thing is you or the moderator were right. Even though it was something I would have said in real life it had been made clear that it wasn't acceptable here. So it was my own fault.

I really enjoy reading these forums been doing it for many many years. Plus I love the subscribers contest. This place can be addicting. I will be a customer for a long time. You guys put out a quality product. 
This

 
Having said that, my studies at the Seminary have made me far more liberal when it comes to social issues that I ever was before.  I can't reconcile the message of the Gospel with the "America first" crowd any longer.  The US as the richest and most powerful country in the world DOES have responsibilities to help lift other people. 

"To whom much is given, much will be required." Luke 12:48
👍   

 
Even though it was something I would have said in real life it had been made clear that it wasn't acceptable here. So it was my own fault.
There are lots of things that you can say in real life because people know you and can read you.  The same thing get so easily misconstrued here and then you start talking past each other.  I am disputing a point you never meant to make and your  tearing me apart for statements that mean something completely different to you than me.  Been there, done that, sure will repeat the mistake again and again.  (Maybe even an hour ago.)

 
Just let it go. This is what I'm talking about. 
If you agree with him yes...But I don't.  

So don’t just let it go.  

See how that works?

(Pretty snarky eh?  Especially when I was just commenting on something I thought merited consideration, not necessarily imploring anyone for their opinion)

 
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The US does more than any other country to help lift other people, both from a government perspective and from private citizens via charity and volunteering. 
Right, but it's about more than just that.

You can go to the other thread that I started if you want to continue, but for example, as a Christian, abortion is easy to oppose, but if you oppose abortion because of the dignity of human life, you cannot also be for Capital Punishment.  Criminals, even really bad ones, are still created in the likeness and image of God, therefore, they have an inherent human dignity that cannot be violated by the State or anyone else.....

Stuff like that....

 
Right, but it's about more than just that.

You can go to the other thread that I started if you want to continue, but for example, as a Christian, abortion is easy to oppose, but if you oppose abortion because of the dignity of human life, you cannot also be for Capital Punishment.  Criminals, even really bad ones, are still created in the likeness and image of God, therefore, they have an inherent human dignity that cannot be violated by the State or anyone else.....

Stuff like that....
So if I may ask, being a fellow Christian, how does abortion influence your vote or party?  I feel like it’s a catch 22 - I don’t feel an anti abortion ticket will win presidential election (generally) plus I don’t think roe v wade gets over turned (we’ll see).  So I almost treat it like a non issue when voting.

just wondering

 
I'll both defend and criticize the OP.

I'll defend him because I don't think he was trying to do any kind of gotcha. He was just making an observation about the board demographics. He's not the first person to find that kind of thing interesting. Others have also commented about how anti-Trump or whatever the board leans, and I myself have done a survey on board demographics. Board demographics can be kind of interesting.

On the other hand, I'll criticize the OP because board demographics are an example of meta-discussion, and I think meta-discussion is about 95% of what's wrong with the PSF.

An example of discussion is: "I think border security should be tightened up so that the ratio of legal to illegal immigration can increase."

An example of meta-discussion is: "I don't remember you taking this position during the previous administration." Or: "All of your posts lack citations to good sources." Or: "This board is so liberal!" Or: "Your spelling is dumb."

Discussion about the issues is great. Discussion about the discussion might seem interesting for a half-second, but it becomes very tedious very quickly. And yet the majority -- no exaggeration, the literal majority -- of the posts in this forum seem to contain meta-discussion.

I think it would be great to give a one-day timeout to everyone who posts about other posters instead of posting about issues, but we don't have the moderation resources to make that happen.

 
I'll both defend and criticize the OP.

I'll defend him because I don't think he was trying to do any kind of gotcha. He was just making an observation about the board demographics. He's not the first person to find that kind of thing interesting. Others have also commented about how anti-Trump or whatever the board leans, and I myself have done a survey on board demographics. Board demographics can be kind of interesting.

On the other hand, I'll criticize the OP because board demographics are an example of meta-discussion, and I think meta-discussion is about 95% of what's wrong with the PSF.

An example of discussion is: "I think border security should be tightened up so that the ratio of legal to illegal immigration can increase."

An example of meta-discussion is: "I don't remember you taking this position during the previous administration." Or: "All of your posts lack citations to good sources." Or: "This board is so liberal!" Or: "Your spelling is dumb."

Discussion about the issues is great. Discussion about the discussion might seem interesting for a half-second, but it becomes very tedious very quickly. And yet the majority -- no exaggeration, the literal majority -- of the posts in this forum seem to contain meta-discussion.

I think it would be great to give a one-day timeout to everyone who posts about other posters instead of posting about issues, but we don't have the moderation resources to make that happen.
this. so this.

 
Guido Merkins said:
Having said that, my studies at the Seminary have made me far more liberal when it comes to social issues that I ever was before.  I can't reconcile the message of the Gospel with the "America first" crowd any longer.  The US as the richest and most powerful country in the world DOES have responsibilities to help lift other people. 

"To whom much is given, much will be required." Luke 12:48
As much as you may want to put the oxygen mask on your child first, you need to put on yours before theirs.
I give to charity...but I never dipped into my kid's college fund to do so....and I surely wouldn't go into debt to do it.

Lifting other people has its limits. 
You need to stay healthy yourself.

1 Timothy 5:8   "But if any provide not for his own, and especially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith and is worse than an infidel."

Keep in mind....if America ceases to exist...where does everyone go?

 
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bigmarc27 said:
If you agree with him yes...But I don't.  

So don’t just let it go.  

See how that works?

(Pretty snarky eh?  Especially when I was just commenting on something I thought merited consideration, not necessarily imploring anyone for their opinion)
I'm sorry but I was talking to him.

 
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