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Remember when, around a year ago, a lot of people complained that this forum skewed left?


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1 hour ago, Maurile Tremblay said:

An example of discussion is: "I think border security should be tightened up so that the ratio of legal to illegal immigration can increase."

An example of meta-discussion is: "I don't remember you taking this position during the previous administration." Or: "All of your posts lack citations to good sources." Or: "This board is so liberal!" Or: "Your spelling is dumb."

Discussion about the issues is great. Discussion about the discussion might seem interesting for a half-second, but it becomes very tedious very quickly. And yet the majority -- no exaggeration, the literal majority -- of the posts in this forum seem to contain meta-discussion.

I think it would be great to give a one-day timeout to everyone who posts about other posters instead of posting about issues, but we don't have the moderation resources to make that happen.

I recall this being a rule in your “you will be suspended” thread. It truly is disappointing that it isn’t practical to enforce.  It would solve almost all of the forum’s problems.

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9 minutes ago, Juxtatarot said:

I recall this being a rule in your “you will be suspended” thread. It truly is disappointing that it isn’t practical to enforce.  It would solve almost all of the forum’s problems.

Agreed. Whenever I see a post that's bad, it often is because it's 100% part of a never ending slapfast with another poster.

And little to no comment on the actual topic. 

If we could just get people to ask themselves before they click "Submit Reply", "What is this post about?", we'd have better discussions.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Joe Bryant said:

I'm sorry but I was talking to him.

And I’m speaking to you, so do you want to address what I said (or don’t, doesn’t matter to me)?  If he wanted to engage, he could have done so by saying, “I disagree.”  He decided to be an ###, I reciprocated. 

Edited by bigmarc27
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3 hours ago, Maurile Tremblay said:

I'll both defend and criticize the OP.

I'll defend him because I don't think he was trying to do any kind of gotcha. He was just making an observation about the board demographics. He's not the first person to find that kind of thing interesting. Others have also commented about how anti-Trump or whatever the board leans, and I myself have done a survey on board demographics. Board demographics can be kind of interesting.

On the other hand, I'll criticize the OP because board demographics are an example of meta-discussion, and I think meta-discussion is about 95% of what's wrong with the PSF.

An example of discussion is: "I think border security should be tightened up so that the ratio of legal to illegal immigration can increase."

An example of meta-discussion is: "I don't remember you taking this position during the previous administration." Or: "All of your posts lack citations to good sources." Or: "This board is so liberal!" Or: "Your spelling is dumb."

Discussion about the issues is great. Discussion about the discussion might seem interesting for a half-second, but it becomes very tedious very quickly. And yet the majority -- no exaggeration, the literal majority -- of the posts in this forum seem to contain meta-discussion.

I think it would be great to give a one-day timeout to everyone who posts about other posters instead of posting about issues, but we don't have the moderation resources to make that happen.

I think you raise good points here. But I would like to point out that there is a significant difference between “this particular poster is guilty of such and such” and “I’ve noticed a trend in the posting in this forum”. I’d say the latter is far more harmless than the former. 
 

That being said, I’ve certainly been guilty of both. 

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7 hours ago, Guido Merkins said:

I'm an anti Trump Republican.  I think he's done immeasurable damage to the party and to the country.  The Republican Party is now the place where all the anti-science and conspiracy theory folks reside, and that's sad...we used to try and win by having a more optimistic and hopeful message.  Now we tear others down because we don't want to face actual facts.  Trump is largely to blame for this.  I'm not saying he created anti science and conspiracy theories, but he sure gave them legitimacy....... 

Having said that, my studies at the Seminary have made me far more liberal when it comes to social issues that I ever was before.  I can't reconcile the message of the Gospel with the "America first" crowd any longer.  The US as the richest and most powerful country in the world DOES have responsibilities to help lift other people. 

 

"To whom much is given, much will be required." Luke 12:48

We are on similar journeys my friend. I have never really identified with either party and I too realize, the more I study, that Jesus would have been a left leaner on social issues in today's terms. We are definitely commie pinko types in the minds of the current GOP loyalists. 

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36 minutes ago, Yankee23Fan said:

Ah the good and days before Lin Manuel Miranda made him cool again.

Actually Jefferson doesn’t come off so good in the Hamilton musical (in which Hamilton is the true hero of the Founding Fathers.) 

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7 hours ago, Guido Merkins said:

I'm an anti Trump Republican.  I think he's done immeasurable damage to the party and to the country.  The Republican Party is now the place where all the anti-science and conspiracy theory folks reside, and that's sad...we used to try and win by having a more optimistic and hopeful message.  Now we tear others down because we don't want to face actual facts.  Trump is largely to blame for this.  I'm not saying he created anti science and conspiracy theories, but he sure gave them legitimacy....... 

It is sad.

You're not alone.

And it'll be a long time before we find someone leading the party who didn't support this nonsense, so I doubt I'll be voting that way anytime soon. Which is fine. I used to hold my nose on the Republican social agenda and vote that way anyway. Because I don't trust a Dem with a check book. Now I don't trust a Republican with anything, including a checkbook. Thanks Obama!

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24 minutes ago, timschochet said:

Actually Jefferson doesn’t come off so good in the Hamilton musical (in which Hamilton is the true hero of the Founding Fathers.) 

At least we know he knows where France is

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On 5/17/2021 at 1:09 PM, mrip541 said:

Because a lot of people have decided that attempting to engage here just isn't worth it, for various reasons.

Pretty much why I have mostly disengaged here. Very few people are acting in good faith.

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Posted (edited)
16 minutes ago, Ilov80s said:

Pretty much why I have mostly disengaged here. Very few people are acting in good faith.

If every person did their best to try to act in good faith themselves, I bet we would see a noticeable change.   I can't control what others do, so until others change, I'm going to try to do my part.

That said, there is nothing wrong with choosing to disengage either.  There's a whole big world out there.  Probably is more fun to engage people IRL than on a message board.   

Edited by Alex P Keaton
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19 minutes ago, Alex P Keaton said:

Probably is more fun to engage people IRL than on a message board.   

In my experience not when talking about religion or politics, that’s rarely fun in person either. Just very difficult topics to discuss with anybody that has any level of passion about either. The truth is the only place I talk politics anymore is right here.  

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7 hours ago, Maurile Tremblay said:

I'll both defend and criticize the OP.

I'll defend him because I don't think he was trying to do any kind of gotcha. He was just making an observation about the board demographics. He's not the first person to find that kind of thing interesting. Others have also commented about how anti-Trump or whatever the board leans, and I myself have done a survey on board demographics. Board demographics can be kind of interesting.

No. He always outs himself at the end.  Read his last sentance, it's his tell.  

Quote

Just noting the change for future reference. 

Hes trying to state it as fact so he can play gotcha the next time anyone refers to his forum as the echo chamber.  

 

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1 hour ago, dkp993 said:

In my experience not when talking about religion or politics, that’s rarely fun in person either. Just very difficult topics to discuss with anybody that has any level of passion about either. The truth is the only place I talk politics anymore is right here.  

The only place I talk about politics with people all along the political spectrum is here.  Most of us live our outside lives surrounded by like-minded people.

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57 minutes ago, tonydead said:

No. He always outs himself at the end.  Read his last sentance, it's his tell.  

Hes trying to state it as fact so he can play gotcha the next time anyone refers to his forum as the echo chamber.  

 

Seems to me that the phrase “echo chamber” is itself a “gotcha”, and snarky comment. 

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1 minute ago, timschochet said:

Umm..isn’t that pretty much common knowledge? I’m no expert on the Gospels, but I thought everybody knew that. 

I would have thought that little abortion thing might have turned him off a little.

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1 hour ago, fatguyinalittlecoat said:

The only place I talk about politics with people all along the political spectrum is here.  Most of us live our outside lives surrounded by like-minded people.

I’m in a really tight friend group of seven couples and politically we run the political spectrum from super liberal, mild liberal, moderate, mild conservative, super conservative. Sure we disagree on political stuff but it’s always respectful (but if I’m being honest, political topics probably make up less than 5% of our conversation when we’re together). It’s never been an issue. I love these people with all my heart. 

Is hanging out with friends who have different political views really something that most people don’t do?

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3 minutes ago, bigbottom said:

Is hanging out with friends who have different political views really something that most people don’t do?

I think the order of events for me is to make a friend and then discover we are political "enemies".  But then it is too late.  Probably the major flaw with the virtual community is we become political foes before we get to know why we like each other.  

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Posted (edited)

P.S.  I guess living in a politically diverse area would be almost necessary to have a diverse social circle. Like if you lived in rural Texas, you’re likely not going to have a bunch of options for liberals to hang out with. 

P.P.S. It’s probably worth noting that none of the conservative folks in our group are MAGA hat wearing Trump fans. They are more traditional conservatives. 

Edited by bigbottom
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26 minutes ago, bigbottom said:

Is hanging out with friends who have different political views really something that most people don’t do?

No, like you I have great friends and family across the political spectrum.  Prior to Trump we spoke of politics like 5% of the time too.  Not longer after Trump that 5% of the conversation became much more “passionate”.  It’s now zero percent, and I think that’s just fine with everyone involved.   

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1 hour ago, bigbottom said:

P.S.  I guess living in a politically diverse area would be almost necessary to have a diverse social circle. Like if you lived in rural Texas, you’re likely not going to have a bunch of options for liberals to hang out with. 

P.P.S. It’s probably worth noting that none of the conservative folks in our group are MAGA hat wearing Trump fans. They are more traditional conservatives. 

This might play a large part of why you can talk politics without it getting to impassioned.  In this forum the arguments between Democrats and traditional Republicans seem to stay on course more often than the arguments between Democrats and Trump Republicans.

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2 hours ago, bigbottom said:

I’m in a really tight friend group of seven couples and politically we run the political spectrum from super liberal, mild liberal, moderate, mild conservative, super conservative. Sure we disagree on political stuff but it’s always respectful (but if I’m being honest, political topics probably make up less than 5% of our conversation when we’re together). It’s never been an issue. I love these people with all my heart. 

Is hanging out with friends who have different political views really something that most people don’t do?

Same. There are 13, uh, used to be couples. Still mostly couples and a few now single moms. We almost all attend the same church. Yes, even the godless Dems.

There was a time, before them, I was generally the conservative in the room. Now I'm more often than not ####ing off the conservatives in the room when politics comes up. But I try to keep those instances few and far between. Sometimes stuff happens. It'll come as a shock, I know, but I don't always have the best filter between brain and mouth. 

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2 hours ago, bigbottom said:

I’m in a really tight friend group of seven couples and politically we run the political spectrum from super liberal, mild liberal, moderate, mild conservative, super conservative. Sure we disagree on political stuff but it’s always respectful (but if I’m being honest, political topics probably make up less than 5% of our conversation when we’re together). It’s never been an issue. I love these people with all my heart. 

Is hanging out with friends who have different political views really something that most people don’t do?

The other piece to this 95% of my friends do and I make a rule to do is keep it off social media as well. It’s one thing to discuss it in a forum for it, a whole other thing to go on a rant or diatribe on social media. Assuming most of us have friends who disagree with almost every political view we have in one way or the other, it just seems like a bad thing to do. Whenever I see a friend do it, rather than consider their post I always think how bad it makes them look. 

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On 5/17/2021 at 9:15 AM, timschochet said:

A lot of people agreed that this forum was too heavy to the left, including the owner of the website. I never bought into it. I argued at the time that it was might have been at most 60-40, and then not left, but anti-Trump- there were plenty of moderates and conservatives that were anti-Trump as well. But the prevalent point of view was that conservatives were surrounded by leftists in here. 
 

Well, if that was ever true it’s certainly changed now. Read any thread in this forum and if somebody offers a liberal argument, it is immediately countered by at least a half a dozen conservative voices. Which is fine, I don’t care what the proportion is. Just noting the change for future reference. 
 

 

 

I spent many years away from FBG, and then I started posting regularly again about 8 months ago, almost exclusively in the PSF.

That's what changed. I'm the difference. I'm a high level poster with decades of real life experience in multiple areas relevant to core political discussion. Words are powerful and I know how to use them.

If you are immediately and consistently countered by many conservative voices, it's because you go out of your way to troll people and troll Conservatives/Republicans. It's low value posting but it's your free speech. You're a compiler. Your asset base is entirely predicated on volume. If we were on a basketball court, people would call you a chucker. The people most punished by your type of speech are not actually Conservatives/Republicans, it's traditional liberals. I have nothing against traditional liberals, they see different problem solving options to common problems. Many even have a few Conservative leanings. But, to be fair, most Conservatives, if you sit down and listen to them, usually have a few classically liberal leanings. But you don't listen to them. Because you aren't here for discussion.

When I first started posting here in the PSF, well I got mobbed on and I expected that. And I picked them off one by one. With facts, stats, video, quotes, articles, analysis, links, context and data. The only ones left gunning for Conservatives/Republicans at this point are those who have FBG as their primary social outlet and their board identities are deeply linked to their own actual identities and their desire for external validation. I can crush anyone in open debate, I've done it for months here, but I can't crush anyone where their cognitive dissonance requires them to maintain their board persona at all times like a man in the desert looking for water.

The way and manner in which you participate is the litmus test on what it means to be an open tax on free speech. I begrudge you nothing because I understand what you are and also because I accept you don't truly understand what you are. Others pay the tax for you, but you have to carry your burden alone. Here's the truth and feel free to note it for future reference- I would rather endure you than be you.

I wish you well Tim. I wish for you actual peace in your heart. All burdens are a choice. You don't choose it because you like it better than finding your authentic self. You choose it because you don't actually know the difference.

Like I said, words are powerful, and I know how to use them.

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6 hours ago, bigbottom said:

I’m in a really tight friend group of seven couples and politically we run the political spectrum from super liberal, mild liberal, moderate, mild conservative, super conservative. Sure we disagree on political stuff but it’s always respectful (but if I’m being honest, political topics probably make up less than 5% of our conversation when we’re together). It’s never been an issue. I love these people with all my heart. 

Is hanging out with friends who have different political views really something that most people don’t do?

I see this at the restaurant, and it's a beautiful thing. I think the 5% part is probably a key factor. We are a lot more than who we voted for, and that seems forgotten these days. Easy to remember when it's people you know, but not so in other arenas.

And, on the flip side, surely that makes it a forum devoted to just politics very likely to lend to unproductive snarkiness. Doesn't have to, but that would be natural tendency, I think.

And I do feel like I remember this board leaning right about 10 years ago or so, but I could be wrong. I'm getting old. 

 

 

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, bigbottom said:

P.S.  I guess living in a politically diverse area would be almost necessary to have a diverse social circle. Like if you lived in rural Texas, you’re likely not going to have a bunch of options for liberals to hang out with. 

P.P.S. It’s probably worth noting that none of the conservative folks in our group are MAGA hat wearing Trump fans. They are more traditional conservatives. 

Yeah I think both of these addendums are key.  The overwhelming majority of people I interact with in my life are on the left side of the political spectrum.  This is true at work, in my neighborhood, at my synagogue, my kids' friends' parents, etc.  It's not that I wouldn't hang out with conservative people, it's just that if I'm picking friends without paying attention to politics, I'm going to end up with all liberal friends.

And of the few conservatives that I socially interact with, none of them are Trump fans.  This includes my GB I've mentioned in the past that was a high-level political appointee in the Trump administration.  He is much more in the moderate-establishment wing of the party, and he's married to a liberal.  He's not some sort of conservative culture warrior.  His views aren't representative of the Republican Party anymore even though he's been working in Republican circles since college.  If I want to have a political discussion with a Trump fan, this forum is pretty much my only option.

Edited by fatguyinalittlecoat
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Posted (edited)

I literally don't know anybody IRL with my general political orientation.  Aside from some family members, I don't think I even know anybody right of center.  Those people just don't exist in my day to day world.  And I live in a deep red state.  Statistically it's nearly a sure thing that somebody who I interact with on a regular basis voted for Trump, but those folks are doing a really good job of hiding it. 

Actually, I take that back.  I don't see him much any more, but I used to work down the hall from the guy who now serves as faculty advisor for our Campus Republicans.  I'm pretty sure he's not a MAGA guy, but I feel pretty confident that he's some flavor of a right-winger.  So there's one guy.

Edited by IvanKaramazov
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7 hours ago, bigbottom said:

P.S.  I guess living in a politically diverse area would be almost necessary to have a diverse social circle. Like if you lived in rural Texas, you’re likely not going to have a bunch of options for liberals to hang out with. 

P.P.S. It’s probably worth noting that none of the conservative folks in our group are MAGA hat wearing Trump fans. They are more traditional conservatives. 

I live in a GOP enclave but I have a really diverse group of close friends.  Acquaintances,  though? That gets to be very right leaning quickly. 

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12 hours ago, timschochet said:

Actually Jefferson doesn’t come off so good in the Hamilton musical (in which Hamilton is the true hero of the Founding Fathers.) 

Actually, I was being quippy and funny so lighten up. Not every post in this forum is a decision of consequence. Many, especially you, would be wise to accept that.

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8 hours ago, bigbottom said:

Is hanging out with friends who have different political views really something that most people don’t do?

Majority of my co-workers are progressive and I’m assuming liberal.  Majority of my friends and family are conservative and I’m assuming GOP.  I only know a handful of MAGA types but many who always vote Republican.  I try to not discuss politics with either group.

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13 hours ago, bigmarc27 said:

And I’m speaking to you, so do you want to address what I said (or don’t, doesn’t matter to me)?  If he wanted to engage, he could have done so by saying, “I disagree.”  He decided to be an ###, I reciprocated. 

What specifically would you like an answer to? Lots of people have said a lot. Please ask me specifically what you'd like addressed and I'll try to answer. Thanks. 

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9 hours ago, timschochet said:

Umm..isn’t that pretty much common knowledge? I’m no expert on the Gospels, but I thought everybody knew that. 

He was not a liberal.   He taught individual salvation, individual responsibility, individual sin.

 

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9 hours ago, ekbeats said:

I would have thought that little abortion thing might have turned him off a little.

I'm pretty sure it does...I'm pretty confident he wouldn't be a simple minded "one issue" kind of guy though and I am absolutely confident he is NOT a "degree of sin" guy.  It's a black/white line for him with a TON of grace thrown in.  That said, his ultimate focus is individual relationship with anyone who wants to be in a relationship with him.

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7 hours ago, GordonGekko said:

 

I spent many years away from FBG, and then I started posting regularly again about 8 months ago, almost exclusively in the PSF.

That's what changed. I'm the difference. I'm a high level poster with decades of real life experience in multiple areas relevant to core political discussion. Words are powerful and I know how to use them.

If you are immediately and consistently countered by many conservative voices, it's because you go out of your way to troll people and troll Conservatives/Republicans. It's low value posting but it's your free speech. You're a compiler. Your asset base is entirely predicated on volume. If we were on a basketball court, people would call you a chucker. The people most punished by your type of speech are not actually Conservatives/Republicans, it's traditional liberals. I have nothing against traditional liberals, they see different problem solving options to common problems. Many even have a few Conservative leanings. But, to be fair, most Conservatives, if you sit down and listen to them, usually have a few classically liberal leanings. But you don't listen to them. Because you aren't here for discussion.

When I first started posting here in the PSF, well I got mobbed on and I expected that. And I picked them off one by one. With facts, stats, video, quotes, articles, analysis, links, context and data. The only ones left gunning for Conservatives/Republicans at this point are those who have FBG as their primary social outlet and their board identities are deeply linked to their own actual identities and their desire for external validation. I can crush anyone in open debate, I've done it for months here, but I can't crush anyone where their cognitive dissonance requires them to maintain their board persona at all times like a man in the desert looking for water.

The way and manner in which you participate is the litmus test on what it means to be an open tax on free speech. I begrudge you nothing because I understand what you are and also because I accept you don't truly understand what you are. Others pay the tax for you, but you have to carry your burden alone. Here's the truth and feel free to note it for future reference- I would rather endure you than be you.

I wish you well Tim. I wish for you actual peace in your heart. All burdens are a choice. You don't choose it because you like it better than finding your authentic self. You choose it because you don't actually know the difference.

Like I said, words are powerful, and I know how to use them.

:goodposting:. lol chucker

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2 hours ago, Yankee23Fan said:

Actually, I was being quippy and funny so lighten up. Not every post in this forum is a decision of consequence. Many, especially you, would be wise to accept that.

Ironically I was trying to be quippy in my response to you as well. You’re taking me more seriously than I took you. 

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8 hours ago, GordonGekko said:

 

I spent many years away from FBG, and then I started posting regularly again about 8 months ago, almost exclusively in the PSF.

That's what changed. I'm the difference. I'm a high level poster with decades of real life experience in multiple areas relevant to core political discussion. Words are powerful and I know how to use them.

If you are immediately and consistently countered by many conservative voices, it's because you go out of your way to troll people and troll Conservatives/Republicans. It's low value posting but it's your free speech. You're a compiler. Your asset base is entirely predicated on volume. If we were on a basketball court, people would call you a chucker. The people most punished by your type of speech are not actually Conservatives/Republicans, it's traditional liberals. I have nothing against traditional liberals, they see different problem solving options to common problems. Many even have a few Conservative leanings. But, to be fair, most Conservatives, if you sit down and listen to them, usually have a few classically liberal leanings. But you don't listen to them. Because you aren't here for discussion.

When I first started posting here in the PSF, well I got mobbed on and I expected that. And I picked them off one by one. With facts, stats, video, quotes, articles, analysis, links, context and data. The only ones left gunning for Conservatives/Republicans at this point are those who have FBG as their primary social outlet and their board identities are deeply linked to their own actual identities and their desire for external validation. I can crush anyone in open debate, I've done it for months here, but I can't crush anyone where their cognitive dissonance requires them to maintain their board persona at all times like a man in the desert looking for water.

The way and manner in which you participate is the litmus test on what it means to be an open tax on free speech. I begrudge you nothing because I understand what you are and also because I accept you don't truly understand what you are. Others pay the tax for you, but you have to carry your burden alone. Here's the truth and feel free to note it for future reference- I would rather endure you than be you.

I wish you well Tim. I wish for you actual peace in your heart. All burdens are a choice. You don't choose it because you like it better than finding your authentic self. You choose it because you don't actually know the difference.

Like I said, words are powerful, and I know how to use them.

Since you chose to analyze me in your extremely pompous and patronizing post, allow me to respond in kind: 

You’re the first person here I reported in over ten years. I did so because you actually asked me in a post how I would feel if my wife or daughter were raped or murdered by undocumented immigrants. After I reported you, you disappeared for a long time, so I assume you were suspended. Not long enough IMO.

That particular post caught my eye; I was angered and offended by it. But the truth is I don’t read most of your posts. They’re incredibly long-winded, filled with nonsensical arguments laced with big words to make them seem more impressive, and most importantly not written with debate or discussion intended. I scroll past most of them; I suspect that many others do as well. 

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9 minutes ago, timschochet said:

Since you chose to analyze me in your extremely pompous and patronizing post, allow me to respond in kind: 

You’re the first person here I reported in over ten years. I did so because you actually asked me in a post how I would feel if my wife or daughter were raped or murdered by undocumented immigrants. After I reported you, you disappeared for a long time, so I assume you were suspended. Not long enough IMO.

That particular post caught my eye; I was angered and offended by it. But the truth is I don’t read most of your posts. They’re incredibly long-winded, filled with nonsensical arguments laced with big words to make them seem more impressive, and most importantly not written with debate or discussion intended. I scroll past most of them; I suspect that many others do as well. 

Have some self awareness.  Seriously. 

Imagine other posters when you lob your racism and sexism bombs at them for years and years and years. 

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