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The teaching of our history: critical race theory and The 1619 Project (1 Viewer)

ekbeats said:
The logical next step for a Liberal who doesn’t like what he hears - attack the messenger.  Surprised you didn’t call me a racist.
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Perfect set of posts to give us an example of what we are talking about, and why people either ignore posters like you or stop responding.  

1.  1 person is not representative of a group of people on a political spectrum.  Doesn't matter to me that they were educated at Yale.   It's also not some harbinger of where things are going. 

2.  I've not called anybody on here a racist, so not sure why that is a surprise I didn't call you one.  

3.  As has been said a few times recently, just because somebody disagrees with you on something, doesn't mean they are on the opposite "team" as you.  

 
Alex P Keaton said:
So wait, because she attended or lectured at a handful of well known institutions, you somehow think that negates the idea that her views are extreme, or that this story is extreme?   That makes zero logical sense.

I have dozens and dozens of friends who went to U of Chicago.  Can’t think of a single one who would share this woman’s views.
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Oh, they will - you just wait!! ;)  

I am guessing we could put together a pretty long list of speakers that have extreme ideas lecturing at colleges or people that have extreme ideas who were educated at our best institutions (yes, from all ends of the political spectrum and throughout history). 

 
JerryG said:
As a conservative I started reading the above and though, heh, no way I will feel threatened.  But... well, threatened is not the word, what would be the word which describes your inability to disagree more with something?  This post captures everything I view wrong with CRT as a holistic view.  It proposes that we teach a generation of young black children that the system is rigged against you, and as such you cannot succeed.  But don't worry, it isn't your fault, so that should make feel better.  And we feel awful about it so we'll give you more entitlements.

So let's look at the question "why do black families currently have so much less wealth than white families?"  I'm confident that CRT handles the message I just typed with sufficient thoroughness.  But where is the hope?  Do they mention the most successful ethnic group in America, at least according to this Ozy link?  I've posted it before but I'll post it again.  Nigerian Americans.

https://www.ozy.com/around-the-world/the-most-successful-ethnic-group-in-the-u-s-may-surprise-you/86885/

The above would seem to fly in the face of the belief that you can't succeed in America if you are black.  This isn't a one-off individual example of success, this is an entire racial culture.  How do they succeed?  Commitment to family unit, to education, to accountability.  Are we teaching this?  Are we teaching that hey, some crappy things have happened to blacks and some continue to happen, but guess what, you can break the chain, you can be successful, you can get that call back for an interview that I read earlier doesn't happen (Nigerian names are particularly difficult).  Because if not, it is just a bunch of negative perspectives which leave the students with no hope.
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Thanks for the response but I’m a little confused about the exact spot where we disagree so it might be helpful if you (and others like @FairWarningthat have expressed similar views answer these questions more directly:

1) Do you agree that black people in the United States, on average, have far less wealth than white people?

2) If so, what do you personally think is the reason for this phenomenon?

 
fatguyinalittlecoat said:
Thanks for the response but I’m a little confused about the exact spot where we disagree so it might be helpful if you (and others like @FairWarningthat have expressed similar views answer these questions more directly:

1) Do you agree that black people in the United States, on average, have far less wealth than white people?

2) If so, what do you personally think is the reason for this phenomenon?
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I’ll address this when I get more time today.  In a nutshell, yes blacks have far less wealth.  Why?  There are a number of reasons, but 1619 is FAR at the bottom of the list.  A lot of it is their family unit and a lot of it is their culture.  

 
JerryG said:
fatguyinalittlecoat said:
I think you're glossing over how threatening this narrative is to conservatives.  

When I took history in high school, I don't remember any discussions like "why do black families currently have so much less wealth than white families?" or "why are black people incarcerated at such higher rates than white people today?"  These subjects, despite their importance in understanding this country, were completely ignored.

Critical race theory attempts to answer those sorts of questions.  And the answer critical race theory gives is that these inequalities are the end result of hundreds of years of governmental and institutional actions that placed enormous roadblocks in front of black people.  It's not due to just making bad choices or not working hard enough or something like that.

But that's a very dangerous conclusion to reach if you're someone that opposes things like the redistribution of wealth or the reform of law enforcement, or who thinks that this country is a meritocracy where people get what they deserve.  Those positions no longer seem "fair."  And it's hard to claim the moral high ground if you are advocating for unfair policies.


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As a conservative I started reading the above and though, heh, no way I will feel threatened.  But... well, threatened is not the word, what would be the word which describes your inability to disagree more with something?  This post captures everything I view wrong with CRT as a holistic view.  It proposes that we teach a generation of young black children that the system is rigged against you, and as such you cannot succeed.  But don't worry, it isn't your fault, so that should make feel better.  And we feel awful about it so we'll give you more entitlements.

So let's look at the question "why do black families currently have so much less wealth than white families?"  I'm confident that CRT handles the message I just typed with sufficient thoroughness.  But where is the hope?  Do they mention the most successful ethnic group in America, at least according to this Ozy link?  I've posted it before but I'll post it again.  Nigerian Americans.


Quote

At an Onyejekwe family get-together, you can’t throw a stone without hitting someone with a master’s degree. Doctors, lawyers, engineers, professors — every family member is highly educated and professionally successful, and many have a lucrative side gig to boot. Parents and grandparents share stories of whose kid just won an academic honor, achieved an athletic title or performed in the school play. Aunts, uncles and cousins celebrate one another’s job promotions or the new nonprofit one of them just started. To the Ohio-based Onyejekwes, this level of achievement is normal. They’re Nigerian-American — it’s just what they do.
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https://www.ozy.com/around-the-world/the-most-successful-ethnic-group-in-the-u-s-may-surprise-you/86885/

The above would seem to fly in the face of the belief that you can't succeed in America if you are black.  This isn't a one-off individual example of success, this is an entire racial culture.  How do they succeed?  Commitment to family unit, to education, to accountability.  Are we teaching this?  Are we teaching that hey, some crappy things have happened to blacks and some continue to happen, but guess what, you can break the chain, you can be successful, you can get that call back for an interview that I read earlier doesn't happen (Nigerian names are particularly difficult).  Because if not, it is just a bunch of negative perspectives which leave the students with no hope.
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At a 10,000 foot level there is little here I disagree with (other than I'm not sure it teaches much about "can't do....." sorts of things), but things have to happen in order. We first have to recognize that there's a problem and we have to be able to acknowledge the reach of that problem.  THEN we can start addressing it.  We are still at the beginnings of admitting there's a problem and it's been 150+ years on that step.  I DO believe looking at successful black people in other cultures would be a HUGE help.  Showing success of black people to other black people is a positive step in at least teaching that it's possible.  It won't teach why level of difficulty is different, but it's definitely a step in the right direction.  

 
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timschochet said:
Our modern day political discussions tend to be dominated by people picking out the most extreme story they can in the news and then arguing that this is representative of that which they oppose. It’s awful, IMO. 
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I've seen this described as "nut-picking."  (Like cherry picking, only you're intentionally selecting nuts drawn from the other side).  That's a nice, catchy description for this sort of thing IMO.

In the specific case of CRT, the average CRT-aligned academic is going to be kind of out there, but it would be a stretch to say that the median CRT-person fantasizes about murdering white people.

When you move beyond CRT and get into DEI people -- the Robin DiAngelos and Ibram Kendis of the world -- the median person in that universe really is pretty radical and also not as intellectually sophisticated as people who do real CRT.  They're mostly grifters.

 
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The Commish said:
At a 10,000 foot level there is little here I disagree with (other than I'm not sure it teaches much about "can't do....." sorts of things), but things have to happen in order. We first have to recognize that there's a problem and we have to be able to acknowledge the reach of that problem.  THEN we can start addressing it.  We are still at the beginnings of admitting there's a problem and it's been 150+ years on that step.  I DO believe looking at successful black people in other cultures would be a HUGE help.  Showing success of black people to other black people is a positive step in at least teaching that it's possible.  It won't teach why level of difficulty is different, but it's definitely a step in the right direction.  
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Why not look at successful blacks here?  Those people are called Uncle Toms in the hood.   It all starts with upbringing.  The same goes for any other race.  If you are having kids as a teenager, the numbers say you’ll probably fail economically.

 
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JerryG said:
Will they be learning things like how Nigerian-Americans succeed despite the above?  Or more generally, what does a CRT-based curriculum teach which provides hope of overcoming systemic challenges?  Because all I see is the negative part.
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This is actually a great question, I don't know the answer to.  Everything I see or know about the theory is focused on the root problem and I can understand why.  That's where you start, but like you, I agree it needs to go beyond that and talk about how to overcome some of this stuff while society works to level the playing field.  If people are just going to throw up their hands and claim "it's all rigged" it's going to take A LOT longer to level things out.  Just like if people throw up their hands and claim "if I did it and they didn't it's because they aren't trying" it's going to take A LOT longer to level things out.  

 
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The Commish said:
This is actually a great question, I don't know the answer to.  Everything I see or know about the theory is focused on the root problem and I can understand why.  That's where you start, but like you, I agree it needs to go beyond that and talk about how to overcome some of this stuff while society works to level the playing field.  If people are just going to throw up their hands and claim "it's all rigged" it's going to take A LOT longer to level things out.  
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And that has happened far too much for far too long.  I bet Pimpy worked hard to get where he is in life,not saying there weren’t bumps in the road along the way.  If they can keep their head on straight, they can write their ticket to success with free college.  That’s a pretty nice reward.

 
FairWarning said:
Why not look at successful blacks here?  Those people are called Uncle Toms in the hood.   It all starts with upbringing.  The same goes for any other race.  If you are having kids as a teenager, the numbers say you’ll probably fail economically.
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This is definitely part of it and we have to go back pretty far to understand where the unraveling of the black family unit began.  This sort of ties in with what Jerry was saying too.  Learning by example would help a HUGE amount.  Being able to see people who look like me in positions I aspire to be in is a huge psychological motivator.  

 
FairWarning said:
And that has happened far too much for far too long.  I bet Pimpy worked hard to get where he is in life,not saying there weren’t bumps in the road along the way.  If they can keep their head on straight, they can write their ticket to success with free college.  That’s a pretty nice reward.
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I guess I am of the opinion that I will work as hard to get changed the systemic parts and get you educated on the systemic parts as you work to do everything you can for yourself to work in the system we have to be successful.  It HAS to be addressed from both sides.  This isn't either/or.  I think the trick is identifying those who are driven to overcome and help them overcome until the playing field is more level.  Doing that helps provide examples to younger people and over time shows them that people that look like them and come from a similar background as them can succeed.  

 
JerryG said:
The above would seem to fly in the face of the belief that you can't succeed in America if you are black. 
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I believe that is a conservative view point.  I, personally, don't know anyone who subscribes to that point of view.

The better view point is that it is "harder" to succeed in America if you are Black.

 
Sinn Fein said:
I believe that is a conservative view point.  I, personally, don't know anyone who subscribes to that point of view.

The better view point is that it is "harder" to succeed in America if you are Black.
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It’s always harder when you have a poor support system and make bad choices.  That doesn’t solve everything, but it’s a great head start.

 
FairWarning said:
It’s always harder when you have a poor support system and make bad choices.
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But herein lies the rub - I look at historic institutional racism as playing an outsized role in how/why many Blacks have a poor support system, and why many make what you and I would consider to be "bad choices"

You, I think, look at those in isolation, and say the poor support system and bad choices are independent to how an individual arrived at that point.

Many of us on this board were alive when school systems were still segregated, and when desegregation was vigorously opposed.  This is not ancient history, and those actions have a far greater impact on future generations, not simply the students at the time.  

We can't simply say: "Ok today, everyone starts on the same page!"  Because too many people are nowhere near ready, and a disproportionate number of those people are Black.

 
FairWarning said:
It’s always harder when you have a poor support system and make bad choices.  That doesn’t solve everything, but it’s a great head start.
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This is true for most everyone.  What's not true for most everyone is that it easy if you have a good support system and make good choices.

ETA:  Just taking the comment on it's face and not delving into the history of what's really caused the issues that we see today in regard to support systems etc.  

 
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Sinn Fein said:
But herein lies the rub - I look at historic institutional racism as playing an outsized role in how/why many Blacks have a poor support system, and why many make what you and I would consider to be "bad choices"

You, I think, look at those in isolation, and say the poor support system and bad choices are independent to how an individual arrived at that point.

Many of us on this board were alive when school systems were still segregated, and when desegregation was vigorously opposed.  This is not ancient history, and those actions have a far greater impact on future generations, not simply the students at the time.  

We can't simply say: "Ok today, everyone starts on the same page!"  Because too many people are nowhere near ready, and a disproportionate number of those people are Black.
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I’m in that age ballpark also :(. 
 

Grad numbers today are worse in the poorest schools by me than they were 40 years ago, why is that?  The students have more resources than ever to get ahead.  When does it change?  Probably not in my lifetime.

 
FairWarning said:
And that has happened far too much for far too long.  I bet Pimpy worked hard to get where he is in life,not saying there weren’t bumps in the road along the way.  If they can keep their head on straight, they can write their ticket to success with free college.  That’s a pretty nice reward.
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Sure, he's listed several things that were bumps along the way that were probably exclusive to the color of his skin (stats show this as being the case generally) - not shown housing in certain areas, gun pointed in his face on a traffic stop (pretty sure that was him), and the math teacher not wanting to give him the go-ahead for the advanced classes.   

Like most things we should live in the middle ground.  What you seem to think will be used as a crutch for too many, I think needs to be talked about so we can remove obstacles like this and get out of people's way.   We can't correct these things if we can't talk about them.  

 
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KarmaPolice said:
Sure, he's listed several things that were bumps along the way that were probably exclusive to the color of his skin (stats show this as being the case generally) - not shown housing in certain areas, gun pointed in his face on a traffic stop (pretty sure that was him), and the math teacher not wanting to give him the go-ahead for the advanced classes.   

Like most things we should live in the middle ground.  What you seem to think will be used as a crutch for too many, I think needs to be talked about so we can remove obstacles like this and get out of people's way.   We can't correct these things if we can't talk about them.  
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People come here to excel, not to be the middle ground.  

 
FairWarning said:
People come here to excel, not to be the middle ground.  
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Yes, I am saying we should remove obstacle so they can excel.   

Just came a across a stat saying that the odds of getting into an advanced class for a black student are much different when the teacher is white vs. black, statistically.  Things like that have 0 to do with somebody's work ethic and desire to succeed, and are an obstacle that we should talk about and address.   Now, I am not saying that's because white teachers are racist or whatever nonsense some around here might throw out.  But if you say we shouldn't bring these up because people might use it as a crutch, then how would something like that be fixed to allow everybody equal opportunity to get in those classes and excel?  These are the little things that add up in a big hurry.  

When I said middle ground, I wasn't referring to being satisfied with letting people be in the middle ground. , I meant more that we should view the problem more in the middle of extremes like not talking about it and this is the only reason black people aren't getting ahead (ie not talking about choices and work ethic after obstacles are removed)  

 
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KarmaPolice said:
Yes, I am saying we should remove obstacle so they can excel.   

Just came a across a stat saying that the odds of getting into an advanced class for a black student are much different when the teacher is white vs. black, statistically.  Things like that have 0 to do with somebody's work ethic and desire to succeed, and are an obstacle that we should talk about and address.   Now, I am not saying that's because white teachers are racist or whatever nonsense some around here might throw out.  But if you say we shouldn't bring these up because people might use it as a crutch, then how would something like that be fixed to allow everybody equal opportunity to get in those classes and excel?  These are the little things that add up in a big hurry.  

When I said middle ground, I wasn't referring to being satisfied with letting people be in the middle ground. , I meant more that we should view the problem more in the middle of extremes like not talking about it and this is the only reason black people aren't getting ahead (ie not talking about choices and work ethic after obstacles are removed)  
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I’m not saying it’s the only reason, but the left never brings up my points either as possible Reasons.  With the wokeness of schools now, those cases of not Being able to attend a class are diminishing.  My brother and his wife are both teachers, so I do know a little from what they say about this.  

 
When I think of middle ground, it’s these yahoos who say math is racist and we should settle so everyone can pass.  

 
FairWarning said:
I’m not saying it’s the only reason, but the left never brings up my points either as possible Reasons.  With the wokeness of schools now, those cases of not Being able to attend a class are diminishing.  My brother and his wife are both teachers, so I do know a little from what they say about this.  
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I hear quite a bit that what people want is obstacles removed and to get out of people's way to succeed and live their lives.  From these groups as well.  

 
timschochet said:
The main difference between us is that you seem to believe that race relations are worse  because people are speaking out about them more than they used to. I think race relations have always been bad, and they’re bad because of racism. 
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The data doesn’t support your position.  Blacks are better off than they were 20 years ago.  Politically they blasted through all barriers.  We elected a black President twice and now have a black/Indian female VP.  Black unemployment dropped under Trump to an all-time low.  And contrary to popular belief there have even been marked improvements in the Justice system, and shootings of unarmed blacks by police are down as well.  So what is it tim?  What has caused race relations to plummet in the last 20 years?  And it has plummeted.

 
timschochet said:
My guess is that blacks of recent African ancestry tend to be more successful because of stronger family units- they lack the troubled family backgrounds which unfortunately is the heritage of slavery, Jim Crow, and the Great Migration. 
But that’s just a hunch; I haven’t really studied this. 
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The African American family unit was doing quite well until the 1960s, and has fallen precipitously since.  This goes to 2013 but you get the point.

In 1960, about two-thirds of black children were living with two parents so that part of Jackson’s statement is correct. The most recent figures show that 34 percent are living with two married parents.

So Jackson’s latest figure is off, but that doesn’t harm his gist that there’s been a significant decline in traditional black families.

We rate his statement Mostly True.
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https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2013/jul/01/ew-jackson/ew-jackson-says-20-percent-black-children-are-bein/#:~:text=In 1960%2C about two-thirds,living with two married parents.

Some might say this correlates with Lyndon Johnson's Great Society programs.

 
KarmaPolice said:
Oh, they will - you just wait!! ;)  

I am guessing we could put together a pretty long list of speakers that have extreme ideas lecturing at colleges or people that have extreme ideas who were educated at our best institutions (yes, from all ends of the political spectrum and throughout history). 
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Did you read any of the articles I posted?  Of course you didn’t.  Otherwise you would have seen that several Yale professors and students liked her lecture.  Her positions were known to Yale before the speech, yet they still hired her to come.  See, the difference between you and me is that I at least acknowledge the craziness on the Right.  And I condemn it.  I called out the Jam. 6th insurrection in no uncertain terms and have admitted several times in here that I regretted my Trump vote.  You guys on the Left don’t concede an inch.  You dismiss all of the crap going on at colleges and in far Left circles like Baghdad Bob.  So it’s pointless to engage with hacks like you.  To the ignore list you go.

 
FairWarning said:
I’ll address this when I get more time today.  In a nutshell, yes blacks have far less wealth.  Why?  There are a number of reasons, but 1619 is FAR at the bottom of the list.  A lot of it is their family unit and a lot of it is their culture.  
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What a load of bull ####.

 
fatguyinalittlecoat said:
Thanks for the response but I’m a little confused about the exact spot where we disagree so it might be helpful if you (and others like @FairWarningthat have expressed similar views answer these questions more directly:

1) Do you agree that black people in the United States, on average, have far less wealth than white people?

2) If so, what do you personally think is the reason for this phenomenon?
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1. Yes of course.

2. Well, that's a complex question.  Yes there are systemic challenges and we should continually work to reduce them.  But if I had to capture my opinion in one brief sound bite, using one of my favorite presidential phrases of all times (from George W Bush, who I otherwise didn't love):  the problem is our soft bigotry of low expectations.  This is my fear of CRT, because I think it exacerbates the excuses behind our low expectations.

I think in parallel we can (a) address systemic issues, and (b) teach inner city black youth (poor youth in general) how to break the cycle.  Education.  Family integrity.  Accountability.  

This is where I struggle with CRT.  Do we need it to accomplish (a)?  I don't think so.  I think we know about those issues without teaching this to our children.  @The Commish feels like CRT is a necessary first step but I just don't see it.  And we certainly don't need it to accomplish (b).

 
JerryG said:
As a conservative I started reading the above and though, heh, no way I will feel threatened.  But... well, threatened is not the word, what would be the word which describes your inability to disagree more with something?  This post captures everything I view wrong with CRT as a holistic view.  It proposes that we teach a generation of young black children that the system is rigged against you, and as such you cannot succeed.  But don't worry, it isn't your fault, so that should make feel better.  And we feel awful about it so we'll give you more entitlements.

So let's look at the question "why do black families currently have so much less wealth than white families?"  I'm confident that CRT handles the message I just typed with sufficient thoroughness.  But where is the hope?  Do they mention the most successful ethnic group in America, at least according to this Ozy link?  I've posted it before but I'll post it again.  Nigerian Americans.

https://www.ozy.com/around-the-world/the-most-successful-ethnic-group-in-the-u-s-may-surprise-you/86885/

The above would seem to fly in the face of the belief that you can't succeed in America if you are black.  This isn't a one-off individual example of success, this is an entire racial culture.  How do they succeed?  Commitment to family unit, to education, to accountability.  Are we teaching this?  Are we teaching that hey, some crappy things have happened to blacks and some continue to happen, but guess what, you can break the chain, you can be successful, you can get that call back for an interview that I read earlier doesn't happen (Nigerian names are particularly difficult).  Because if not, it is just a bunch of negative perspectives which leave the students with no hope.
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Doesn't the Nigerian American story actually support the theory that there is something systemic in our system stifling black Americans? 

From skimming the article, it sure seems like they are talking about Nigerian immigrants who came here starting in the 70s. And they have been very successful. 

They seem to be more financially successful than black people from families that have been here for generations. So what is the difference?

 
JerryG said:
This is where I struggle with CRT.  Do we need it to accomplish (a)?  I don't think so.  I think we know about those issues without teaching this to our children.  @The Commish feels like CRT is a necessary first step but I just don't see it. 
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Do you not find it virtually impossible for a developing mind to process what's going on in the game without understanding the rules of the game?  There are ways to teach these things to younger people and avoid the harsh realities.  I think you're setting them up for failure when you tell them to play the game, but don't explain the rules.

If one doesn't want to get into the complex realities of CRT early in life, that's fine.  The systemic parts shouldn't be avoided though.

 
The overall vibe I’m getting from this thread is we want to teach American Exceptionalism instead of critical thinking. 

 
whoknew said:
Doesn't the Nigerian American story actually support the theory that there is something systemic in our system stifling black Americans? 

From skimming the article, it sure seems like they are talking about Nigerian immigrants who came here starting in the 70s. And they have been very successful. 

They seem to be more financially successful than black people from families that have been here for generations. So what is the difference?
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Not really.  Police, banks, schools, mortgage lenders etc. look at a black American and a Nigerian immigrant and simply see a black guy.  They don't differentiate and whatever systemic racism they apply wouldn't be differentiated either.  If there was something systemically racist it would apply to blacks no matter their country of origin.  The fact that Nigerian immigrants and other black immigrants from countries like Jamaica ARE so successful, despite going to the same schools, being exposed to the same police force, banking in the same banks, actually shows that the system is NOT racist.  The only other answer would be that those people from other countries have a much different element in their lives.  Culture?  More intact Family structure?  Focus on religion?  Focus on education?  All of the above?  None of the above?  

 
whoknew said:
Doesn't the Nigerian American story actually support the theory that there is something systemic in our system stifling black Americans? 
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It definitely supports the theory that there's something (possibly multiple things) unique about African Americans.

As others have noted, police officers have no way to distinguish between a Nigerian grad student and a young African American man when they're driving down the road.  It stands to reason that their interaction with LEOs is pretty similar.  

On the other had, I've taught lots of African grad students.  They do not see themselves as black.  My impression is that quite a few of them have a lower opinion of African Americans than most white people in this thread.  (I say that that's "my impression" because I have no interest in pursuing that angle of discussion with students for obvious reasons, but this is a phenomenon that lots of us have observed and I'm real confident that I'm not imagining it).  Culturally, they're a lot more like me than they are like some kid from East St. Louis.  Now of course, I'm comparing graduate students to random 20-somethings in the 'hood, which is not an apples-to-apples comparison because the people who I encounter from Nigeria or Kenya or Ghana or wherever are the upper tier elite of their respective nations.  They don't seem to have any serious difficulty navigating universities, the banking system, or (probably) the labor market.  

Edited to add: More generally, we should all be leery about comparing any immigrant group to any group of natural-born Americans.  I don't have any data on this, but I would be shocked if immigrants -- as a group -- weren't at least a little brighter and quite a bit more motivated to advance their station in life than the average American.  Of course they're going to have relatively good outcomes. 

 
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unckeyherb said:
Not really.  Police, banks, schools, mortgage lenders etc. look at a black American and a Nigerian immigrant and simply see a black guy.  They don't differentiate and whatever systemic racism they apply wouldn't be differentiated either.  If there was something systemically racist it would apply to blacks no matter their country of origin.  The fact that Nigerian immigrants and other black immigrants from countries like Jamaica ARE so successful, despite going to the same schools, being exposed to the same police force, banking in the same banks, actually shows that the system is NOT racist.  The only other answer would be that those people from other countries have a much different element in their lives.  Culture?  More intact Family structure?  Focus on religion?  Focus on education?  All of the above?  None of the above?  
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I have no way of knowing if police and schools make a differentiation or not.  I do know that mortgage lenders and banks do.  It's on the applications and is bore out in supporting documentation required by banks for loans/mortgages etc.  If I'm not mistaken we have all sorts of different kinds of immigration loans that are afforded immigrants that regular citizens don't qualify for.  What I don't know is if mortgage kinds of loans are under that umbrella or not.  When it comes to money, there is definitely differentiation in many cases.

 
whoknew said:
Doesn't the Nigerian American story actually support the theory that there is something systemic in our system stifling black Americans? 

From skimming the article, it sure seems like they are talking about Nigerian immigrants who came here starting in the 70s. And they have been very successful. 

They seem to be more financially successful than black people from families that have been here for generations. So what is the difference?
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I think part of the difference is they have the means to come over and take advantage of their chance.

 If whites were racist vs blacks, wouldn’t they be racist vs blacks from another country also?

 
whoknew said:
Doesn't the Nigerian American story actually support the theory that there is something systemic in our system stifling black Americans? 

From skimming the article, it sure seems like they are talking about Nigerian immigrants who came here starting in the 70s. And they have been very successful. 

They seem to be more financially successful than black people from families that have been here for generations. So what is the difference?
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I already stated differences:  focus on education, family structure, accountability.  Did you not like that answer, or did you not read it the first time?

 
FairWarning said:
If whites were racist vs blacks, wouldn’t they be racist vs blacks from another country also?
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I actually think it's extremely plausible that there are quite a few white racists who are a lot more racist against African Americans than they would be against first- or second-generation Nigerians.  Not all of them of course, but enough that it makes a meaningful difference in how those two populations experience the United States.

 
Nugget said:
The overall vibe I’m getting from this thread is we want to teach American Exceptionalism instead of critical thinking. 
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To me it’s not an either or. I believe that America has a long history of being terrible towards blacks, as well as other minorities, and that some of this continues today, and that it should be taught, even emphasized. 
I also believe firmly in American exceptionalism, and this this should be taught and emphasized as well- though not blindly. 

 
JerryG said:
I already stated differences:  focus on education, family structure, accountability.  Did you not like that answer, or did you not read it the first time?
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The problem with this answer from my perspective is that it is incomplete because it invites additional questions.  In your view, why don’t black Americans focus enough on education?  Why are their family structures not supportive enough? Why don’t they sufficiently depend on accountability?

The answer about a social safety net doesn’t make a lot of sense to me.  If stuff like welfare and food stamps is responsible for these purported deficiencies in the black community, why aren’t those same deficiencies as pronounced in other communities?  Anyone can get food stamps, why would it ruin the culture of one race but not another?

 
Lots of folks responded, so I'll just kind of reply all on the Nigerian issue.

Most people said it points to there being something different about African Americans. And unckeyherb gave a list - "Culture?  More intact Family structure?  Focus on religion?  Focus on education?  All of the above?  None of the above?"

I think those are great questions but I think that's kind of first level analysis. If their culture is different, if they have a less intact family structure or focus less on religion or education - why is that? What's the cause of those negative differences? 

1) I don't know the answer to the question.

2) I would be very surprised if it didn't at least partially include 350 years of oppression.

ETA: Fatguy basically said the same thing in a better way.

 
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whoknew said:
Lots of folks responded, so I'll just kind of reply all on the Nigerian issue.

Most people said it points to there being something different about African Americans. And unckeyherb gave a list - "Culture?  More intact Family structure?  Focus on religion?  Focus on education?  All of the above?  None of the above?"

I think those are great questions but I think that's kind of first level analysis. If their culture is different, if they have a less intact family structure or focus less on religion or education - why is that? What's the cause of those negative differences? 

1) I don't know the answer to the question.

2) I would be very surprised if it didn't at least partially include 350 years of oppression.

ETA: Fatguy basically said the same thing in a better way.
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Regarding family structure, I've already posted how that has deteriorated greatly since the 1960s, so that is not partially due to the first 300 years of oppression.  I've also already posted that the soft bigotry of low expectations, which started with Johnson's Great Society and is exacerbated by CRT, is a primary factor.

What do you think changed in the past 50 years to so deteriorate the black family unit, @whoknew?

 
The Commish said:
I have no way of knowing if police and schools make a differentiation or not.  I do know that mortgage lenders and banks do.  It's on the applications and is bore out in supporting documentation required by banks for loans/mortgages etc.  If I'm not mistaken we have all sorts of different kinds of immigration loans that are afforded immigrants that regular citizens don't qualify for.  What I don't know is if mortgage kinds of loans are under that umbrella or not.  When it comes to money, there is definitely differentiation in many cases.
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Police pulling over a Nigerian don't know they are Nigerian, just that they are black.  There is no differentiation, but somehow the ever-present racism of policing hasn't brought down this certain sub-section of blacks like we are made to believe it has to black Americans.  Schools don't make any differentiation and neither does banking.  I've heard arguments that black Americans don't have access to banking but that isn't actually true.  What kind of differentiation does money make regarding black Americans versus black Nigerians specifically?  There are verifiable differences in life outcomes between these two subsets of blacks even though they are exposed to the same environments that we are constantly told are adverse to blacks.  How is that possible unless the very premise of that concept is incorrect or at least very, very flawed?  

 
JerryG said:
Regarding family structure, I've already posted how that has deteriorated greatly since the 1960s, so that is not partially due to the first 300 years of oppression.  I've also already posted that the soft bigotry of low expectations, which started with Johnson's Great Society and is exacerbated by CRT, is a primary factor.

What do you think changed in the past 50 years to so deteriorate the black family unit, @whoknew?
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My guess is the long term results of the Great Migration, in which black families divided looking for greater economic opportunities but were then forced into northern ghettoes as a result of racism, is the biggest single factor here. 
 

ETA before anyone points out that the migration mostly took effect between 1920-1955, it took another generation before its long term effects were noticed. 

 
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IvanKaramazov said:
'
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whoknew said:
Lots of folks responded, so I'll just kind of reply all on the Nigerian issue.

Most people said it points to there being something different about African Americans. And unckeyherb gave a list - "Culture?  More intact Family structure?  Focus on religion?  Focus on education?  All of the above?  None of the above?"

I think those are great questions but I think that's kind of first level analysis. If their culture is different, if they have a less intact family structure or focus less on religion or education - why is that? What's the cause of those negative differences? 

1) I don't know the answer to the question.

2) I would be very surprised if it didn't at least partially include 350 years of oppression.

ETA: Fatguy basically said the same thing in a better way.
Click to expand...
I don't know the root causes to these but I'd guess that there are certainly cultural differences between black Americans and immigrant blacks.  As was stated up thread, 60 years ago (a time that had orders of magnitude more racial strife than now), the rate of blacks being born out of wedlock was LESS than that of whites, somewhere around 22%.  Its at about 75% now.  Think about that; 3 out of every 4 black children being born in this country are going home to a single parent household.  

I can also tell you from experience in working with inner city kids at a local Salvation Army that education and intelligence are looked at as a pejorative.  

Immigrants typically DO have an intact nuclear family.  They tend to be more conservative, parents more strict when it comes to education.  It seems fairly obvious to me that cultural differences are probably the most impactful element in the myriad differences between these two groups when it comes to home ownership, high school graduation, college acceptance, professional careers, median incomes-all of which are swayed heavily in the favor of black immigrants.  And again these are not people living in some other area, they are in the same neighborhoods and exposed to whatever racist systems you think apply.  

Regarding the 350 years of oppression I'd agree to a point, however this country has always worked to make thing better for blacks.  Always.  I don't think anyone could plausibly argue that being a black American today is worse or harder than 20 years ago, 20 years ago worse than 40 years ago, and so on.  

 
timschochet said:
So no I don’t believe the Great Society had anything to do with it. 
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The Great Society certainly incentivized single mother hood.  It literally gave money to women who had children out of wedlock.  Its no coincidence that there was a precipitous drop in two parent households beginning in the late 60's (+/-25%) and continuing on into today (+/- 75%).  The intention was good but the result was horrific.

 
timschochet said:
My guess is the long term results of the Great Migration, in which black families divided looking for greater economic opportunities but were then forced into northern ghettoes as a result of racism, is the biggest single factor here. 
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I agree that those who migrated left their parents and cousins, but I doubt they left their spouses and kids.  So they either took their families and started them at their destination.  The Great Migration is considered to have ended in the 70s, pretty close to the 60s.  So why did they abandon their desire for family integrity when they left?  

Regarding the ghetto:  those areas didn't start as ghettos, they started as the black part of town.  Large cities, particularly those older ones in the northeast, to this day have the Irish part of town, the Italian, the Jewish, etc.  So something happened which turned them into ghettos.

Anyway, let's try to apply this to CRT education.  Say the next generation of children learn about the Great Migration, "in which black families divided looking for greater economic opportunities but were then forced into northern ghettoes as a result of racism" to use your definition.  As I've said multiple times, I have no problem with the teaching of events. Furthermore, let's say the children learn how this impacted black culture, with the conclusion you stated above that it was a primary factor in the deterioration of the black nuclear family (with which I disagree, but I'll concede it for this thought experiment).

But what is the framework within which that information is presented?  My perception of CRT is that it is providing reduced (changed from "no" as some posters complained) hope for black youth.  If instead this is part of a larger plan to help lead black youth to a better future, I'm open to hearing it.

[As an aside:  would a CRT curriculum teach the deterioration of the black family unit?  If it is indeed based on marxist principles, replacing the working class with race, and if it maintains that to some extent, then it might present it as a good thing?  More likely a CRT-based curriculum would skip that topic entirely, as it might make some people feel bad and lead to uncomfortable questions.  As an aside of the aside, I presume it has been discussed here that BLM is also founded on marxist principles and eschewed the nuclear family until it became toxic for them to do so.  Perhaps we are beginning to hit on some changes in the past 50 years...]

 
JerryG said:
Regarding family structure, I've already posted how that has deteriorated greatly since the 1960s, so that is not partially due to the first 300 years of oppression.  I've also already posted that the soft bigotry of low expectations, which started with Johnson's Great Society and is exacerbated by CRT, is a primary factor.

What do you think changed in the past 50 years to so deteriorate the black family unit, @whoknew?
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I've already said that I don't know for sure. I haven't studied the issue extensively. Just that I'd be surprised if it didn't include traditional racism as an issue. 

I suspect the drug war plays a lot into the destruction of the deterioration of the black family unit. And, of course, the drug war has large racism overtones.

 
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