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This NONSENSE of 23 States refusing money intended to help those who were flushed off the face of the planet with the pandemic.


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7 hours ago, Ministry of Pain said:

Let me share that in the last year I have gotten healthier than I have ever been physically, better relationships with my entire family including my brother who I have been estranged from for many years and he just moved from DC down here to South Florida. I see my son all the time, we talk every day, my wife and I are spending more quality time, I stopped watching news, most TV shows if they are not live sports or maybe a topic specific show like Space Science or something in nature. I agree with you, even though i know we have a lot of differences, we definitely connect on this part.

I'm All IN

Thirded. And the bolded nearly perfectly describes my viewing habits, except I never started watching news in the first place.

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4 hours ago, Terminalxylem said:

Wealthy people and corporations milking the system are also lame.

I have no way how we improve this when human nature is selfish, and our system uses profit as a moral compass.

I really appreciate you making this post. I felt one way towards you at first in here but this helped a lot. 

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13 hours ago, Terminalxylem said:

Wealthy people and corporations milking the system are also lame.

I have no idea how we improve this when human nature is selfish, and our system uses profit as a moral compass.

Relying on people to simply do the right thing will never work, for many/most people.  Deterrence can work, but only if the penalty is an actual deterrence.  For example, if a person/corporation embezzles or defrauds others for $4B, and our justice system issues a fine of $1B, there is no deterrence.  In fact, in such an example, the fine would simply encourage the same actions in the future.  Jail sentences would be a deterrence, but our justice system generally doesn't work that way for the rich and powerful.

https://www.huffpost.com/highline/article/white-collar-crime/

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32 minutes ago, Rich Conway said:

Relying on people to simply do the right thing will never work, for many/most people.  Deterrence can work, but only if the penalty is an actual deterrence.  For example, if a person/corporation embezzles or defrauds others for $4B, and our justice system issues a fine of $1B, there is no deterrence.  In fact, in such an example, the fine would simply encourage the same actions in the future.  Jail sentences would be a deterrence, but our justice system generally doesn't work that way for the rich and powerful.

https://www.huffpost.com/highline/article/white-collar-crime/

Milking the system and outright embezzlement aren't close to being the same.   

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17 hours ago, Ministry of Pain said:

Where do you get that from? I've worked super hard in life to get to this point but that doesn't mean everyone needs to follow the same track I have. Plus I don't think people making a few hundred a week are going to pass me in terms of net worth any time soon.

I'm sorry you feel the need to leave, but I do understand. 

-They used to call me the "Cutthroat Capitalist" when I went to LACC in SoCal but I also went thru the Great Recession at Lehman Brothers and the SubPrime Mortgage Business. It jaded me hard. 

-I ran night clubs in Central Florida until local government in the 90s passed the "Rave Rule" you can look it up on Youtube I might even make a guest appearance in there outside the courthouses. I had my entire livelihood ripped from me without a care in the World from anyone. 

-I have had the worst luck working for others and I know first hand how many of the owners and those who run these spots generally treat people, it's not pleasant and I'm a little disappointed more folks don't feel compassion for these poor people who were stripped of their lives and used for political purposes to win an election, that's why this country was shut down. We didn't save anyone and more people are sick from other ailments now that went untreated because we had to worry every time someone had the sniffles and so things like cancer became back seat issues. 

We did this, we made this problem because we were so angry about how the 2016 election rolled that there had to be off the ranch craziness and so we got all that when we closed BEACHES!!! We should have made everyone go outdoors and camp for 2 weeks, we would have wiped the Coronavirus out in a month. We made this bed, time to lay in it for a while and part of that is people sitting at home now collecting money because they were willing to show up everyday but we took that away from them. 

It's time to pay up but not the poor people with sweat equity, it's time for a redistribution of wealth that ISN'T SOCIALISM but more of a redirection of money that is created thru compound interest. $1M creates $50k as an example, Jan next year you still have the original $1M. 

That’s great but the laws are always geared to the rich and powerful.  The left always thinks we’ll just take away from them.   Well, it hasn’t happened under Biden yet, I suspect it’ll never happen either.

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1 hour ago, Rich Conway said:

Relying on people to simply do the right thing will never work, for many/most people.  Deterrence can work, but only if the penalty is an actual deterrence.  For example, if a person/corporation embezzles or defrauds others for $4B, and our justice system issues a fine of $1B, there is no deterrence.  In fact, in such an example, the fine would simply encourage the same actions in the future.  Jail sentences would be a deterrence, but our justice system generally doesn't work that way for the rich and powerful.

https://www.huffpost.com/highline/article/white-collar-crime/

I know, but it doesn't make gaming the system any less sucky.

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I'm sure this is has all been discussed; I'm late to the party.  Let me give some anecdotal stories:

My company is a manufacturer.  When SHTF last summer, our sales dropped roughly 50%.  to compensate, we furloughed 50% of the staff including labor.  We had 50% of people on the assembly lines, which meant our thru-put was 50% of what it should be - i.e. where we could get a unit out in 1 minute before, it now took 2 minutes.  The furloughed employees were technically laid off - separated from the company to they could collect unemployment and the additional stipend.

When things normalized this year and want to run full steam, a lot of the folks didn't come back.  We are having trouble finding people to work.  We go thru staffing agencies now, and people stick around for a week, maybe two, and leave.

I absolutely think the added unemployment has something to do with it, and raising wages isn't really going to cut it.  We were already paying $10/hour (~$20k/year) starting out.  Now, I don't know how much they were making on unemployment but with the federal COVID supplement, it was probably pretty close.  Why would anyone come back to work, spending 8 hours a day on your feet assembling products when you could be home on the couch for the same money?  I wouldn't. 

Suppose we bumped pay up to $20 per hour - double it.  would that get people back to work?  I doubt it - I mean, if I have proven last year I can survive on my couch and survive making $20K or bust my ### for $40k, I think I'm gonna couch it more.

I agree it's time to end the Federal supplements and for people to go back to work.

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My factory is across the street from an amusement park.  I can literally see rollercoasters from my parking lot.  Despite everything being able to fully open, the park is still shut down.  There is a big banner in front that they are hiring - I have never seen that before.  It's the labor shortage preventing them from opening.

Here's where it gets interesting: this amusement park has a history of hiring foreign nationals to work - most of the ride attendants are 20-somethings from Eastern Europe - Poland, Ukraine, etc.  I think they have been bringing these kids over and paying them jack ####.  They give them housing, etc and send them back at the end of the season.  It's a great way to suppress wages - $7.50/hour sounds great for these people, and once they are here, what are they going to do - quit and go work at McDonalds, losing their work visa?

I speculate they are having trouble especially with international travel being limited - I have no sympathy.

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29 minutes ago, moleculo said:

My factory is across the street from an amusement park.  I can literally see rollercoasters from my parking lot.  Despite everything being able to fully open, the park is still shut down.  There is a big banner in front that they are hiring - I have never seen that before.  It's the labor shortage preventing them from opening.

Here's where it gets interesting: this amusement park has a history of hiring foreign nationals to work - most of the ride attendants are 20-somethings from Eastern Europe - Poland, Ukraine, etc.  I think they have been bringing these kids over and paying them jack ####.  They give them housing, etc and send them back at the end of the season.  It's a great way to suppress wages - $7.50/hour sounds great for these people, and once they are here, what are they going to do - quit and go work at McDonalds, losing their work visa?

I speculate they are having trouble especially with international travel being limited - I have no sympathy.

I worked at that amusement part 3 summers :lol: 

It was absolutely that way back in the 90s when owned by Paramount.  Now it's owned by the same group that owns Cedar Point so I'm not sure what their practice is, but the pay was $4.25 an hour back then and I remember news reports that the company attempted to count their housing as part of their hourly pay.  This was back in the Jim Baker years.

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1 hour ago, moleculo said:

I'm sure this is has all been discussed; I'm late to the party.  Let me give some anecdotal stories:

My company is a manufacturer.  When SHTF last summer, our sales dropped roughly 50%.  to compensate, we furloughed 50% of the staff including labor.  We had 50% of people on the assembly lines, which meant our thru-put was 50% of what it should be - i.e. where we could get a unit out in 1 minute before, it now took 2 minutes.  The furloughed employees were technically laid off - separated from the company to they could collect unemployment and the additional stipend.

When things normalized this year and want to run full steam, a lot of the folks didn't come back.  We are having trouble finding people to work.  We go thru staffing agencies now, and people stick around for a week, maybe two, and leave.

I absolutely think the added unemployment has something to do with it, and raising wages isn't really going to cut it.  We were already paying $10/hour (~$20k/year) starting out.  Now, I don't know how much they were making on unemployment but with the federal COVID supplement, it was probably pretty close.  Why would anyone come back to work, spending 8 hours a day on your feet assembling products when you could be home on the couch for the same money?  I wouldn't. 

Suppose we bumped pay up to $20 per hour - double it.  would that get people back to work?  I doubt it - I mean, if I have proven last year I can survive on my couch and survive making $20K or bust my ### for $40k, I think I'm gonna couch it more.

I agree it's time to end the Federal supplements and for people to go back to work.

Decent point about the $10 to $20 increase not automatically driving people back to work

Some people are just lazy.  And if they can sit around and make 20K a year off the government and sit on their butts vs making 40k and have to punch a clock all day...they are likely going to take 20k---especially when you add in shift work etc.    

Got one more twist to add.  The legalization of marijuana in many states.  Not because people are failing pre employment drug tests(which they are) but as most of us know(allegedly) pot can make you lazy as all get out.

 

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20 hours ago, supermike80 said:

 Today we pay a ditch digger $15/hour and we pay a bus driver $21/hour.  If we suddenly raise a ditch diggers pay to $21/hour, do you think the bus drivers will be cool with that?  

As a bus driver my logic would be:

Work for $15/hr digging ditches?  Eff that.

Work for $20/hr digging ditches?  Eff that.

Work for $25/hr digging ditches?  Eff that.

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1 hour ago, The Commish said:

I worked at that amusement part 3 summers :lol: 

So you got to meet hot European chicks for 3 summers?  You poor bastard...

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30 minutes ago, supermike80 said:

Decent point about the $10 to $20 increase not automatically driving people back to work

Some people are just lazy.  And if they can sit around and make 20K a year off the government and sit on their butts vs making 40k and have to punch a clock all day...they are likely going to take 20k---especially when you add in shift work etc.    

Got one more twist to add.  The legalization of marijuana in many states.  Not because people are failing pre employment drug tests(which they are) but as most of us know(allegedly) pot can make you lazy as all get out.

 

I like some of your earlier ideas of tying it to outcomes.  

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Just now, supermike80 said:

Sure.   But I am willing to bet there was an increase in use with legalization.  

Probably.Just guessing but new smokers from legalization probably aren't the lazy sort. 

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4 minutes ago, Mile High said:

Probably.Just guessing but new smokers from legalization probably aren't the lazy sort. 

I dont know about that.  There might be an increase there. Its speculation and probably not statistically significant when we are talking about people not wanting to work.

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53 minutes ago, Sand said:

So you got to meet hot European chicks for 3 summers?  You poor bastard...

:lol:

You'd be shocked to know that even back then, Europeans didn't have a very positive opinion of Americans.  The trick was to find the rebels in the bunch looking to upset the parents :thumbup: 

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3 hours ago, moleculo said:

I'm sure this is has all been discussed; I'm late to the party.  Let me give some anecdotal stories:

My company is a manufacturer.  When SHTF last summer, our sales dropped roughly 50%.  to compensate, we furloughed 50% of the staff including labor.  We had 50% of people on the assembly lines, which meant our thru-put was 50% of what it should be - i.e. where we could get a unit out in 1 minute before, it now took 2 minutes.  The furloughed employees were technically laid off - separated from the company to they could collect unemployment and the additional stipend.

When things normalized this year and want to run full steam, a lot of the folks didn't come back.  We are having trouble finding people to work.  We go thru staffing agencies now, and people stick around for a week, maybe two, and leave.

I absolutely think the added unemployment has something to do with it, and raising wages isn't really going to cut it.  We were already paying $10/hour (~$20k/year) starting out.  Now, I don't know how much they were making on unemployment but with the federal COVID supplement, it was probably pretty close.  Why would anyone come back to work, spending 8 hours a day on your feet assembling products when you could be home on the couch for the same money?  I wouldn't. 

Suppose we bumped pay up to $20 per hour - double it.  would that get people back to work?  I doubt it - I mean, if I have proven last year I can survive on my couch and survive making $20K or bust my ### for $40k, I think I'm gonna couch it more.

I agree it's time to end the Federal supplements and for people to go back to work.

This is an excellent argument for UBI.

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6 minutes ago, Rich Conway said:

This is an excellent argument for UBI.

Can you explain why you think so?  On the surface it seems like another mechanism to pay people to do nothing.

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On 5/26/2021 at 4:20 PM, Ministry of Pain said:

-I already know this will not be popular in the circles i frequent and will fly in the face of many MoP mantras over the many years but I am having a hard time, difficult time, impossible time trying to feel sympathy for the businesses that now cannot hire minimum wage-like employees to come running back and break their asses working round the clock so that very few people can really prosper other than perhaps the business owner. Without diving into specifics I think many of these jobs are within companies that have questionable benefits in terms of health to most of their customers so if these businesses did perish i have a hard time finding many tears for them. 

-I'm irritated because we need to be understanding of people who were doing nothing wrong prior to the pandemic and were pretty much stripped of their jobs not because they wouldn't work but it was simple taken away from them or they were forced to operate in conditions I could not or would not choose to...my 21 year old wore a mask the whole time at Publix, i never wore a mask other than to buy groceries let alone have one strapped to my face 8 hours a day. Some of you DID have to experience different forms of this. 

-I would normally resent anyone sitting at home collecting a government check but for some reason this time around I am having a hard time cheering these 23 States for likely doing the right thing in most instances but here I am questioning why we need to do this. 

I'm having a hard time sympathizing with most of the businesses, many who seemed eager to get into the pandemic and change policies almost overnight. I've watched WallStreet SOAR from a low of around 16-17,000? It's doubled from that bottoming out about a year ago, that's absolutely insane to me and most Americans. How can they be making so much money when places were closed? Entire cities or downtown areas of major urban areas were ordered to be shuttered during the pandemic, were they not? 

I'm not doing well on this issue and not finding myself agreeing with folks saying "Good, get their asses back to work"

Was it really a total vacation for everyone?

I dont understand your post.  My wife is a Physical Therapist in an assisted living facility.  She didnt stop working.  She didnt stop working when multiple patients were dying every day (40 total) including a coworker (and their brother and mother).  So no, I really dont understand your post.

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1 hour ago, Rich Conway said:

This is an excellent argument for UBI.

As a guy who needs to have things made, I think the opposite.  I mean, good on the people who don't have to do manual labor, but manual labor still needs to be done.  I mean, how much would we have to pay people to make it worth their while working on an assembly line?  I think it's more than 2x baseline..maybe 3x?  All that gonna do is push jobs overseas and jack up distribution costs (who would want to work in distribution for marginally more than baseline?)

I would be up for something like UBI after you have 20 years of accrued work or something like that.  Something to ensure we still have (relatively) cheap labor available.

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3 hours ago, supermike80 said:

Decent point about the $10 to $20 increase not automatically driving people back to work

Some people are just lazy.  And if they can sit around and make 20K a year off the government and sit on their butts vs making 40k and have to punch a clock all day...they are likely going to take 20k---especially when you add in shift work etc.    

Got one more twist to add.  The legalization of marijuana in many states.  Not because people are failing pre employment drug tests(which they are) but as most of us know(allegedly) pot can make you lazy as all get out.

 

Pot is not legal here.  Not sure if we drug test or not.  

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47 minutes ago, JAA said:

I dont understand your post.  My wife is a Physical Therapist in an assisted living facility.  She didnt stop working.  She didnt stop working when multiple patients were dying every day (40 total) including a coworker (and their brother and mother).  So no, I really dont understand your post.

Us people who were labled essential employees HAD to work no matter the conditions.  Yes many people did lose their jobs beyond their control because of state mandates.  This is why ALL of the states need to open 100% now.  

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1 hour ago, JerryG said:

Can you explain why you think so?  On the surface it seems like another mechanism to pay people to do nothing.

There are lots of detailed threads on this, but I can summarize quickly.  Please note that all numbers below are meant to be examples for easy math purposes only, not actual proposals (i.e. I'm not suggesting a $10K UBI or $10K unemployment payments).

If government pays an unemployed person $10K, but stops paying the $10K as soon as the person becomes employed with at least $10K of wages, there is no incentive for unemployed person to take any job that pays $10K or below.  That is, I get the same $10K whether I sit at home or work a $10K salary job.  Further, there is only $1K of incentive for me to take a job that pays $11K.

If government pays everyone a UBI of $10K, regardless of work status or salary, there is incentive to take a job.  Even better, the incentive matches the salary of the job.  That is, I would have $5K of incentive to take a $5K job, or $10K of incentive to take a $10K job.  If I sit home, I get $10K.  If I take a $10K job, I get $20K.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, FairWarning said:

“The ratio of CEO-to-worker compensation was 320 to 1 in 2019, up from 293 to 1 in 2018 and just 21 to 1 in 1965, according to the Economic Policy Institute.”

You combine this and the hedge fund types (read - making money with no involvement in producing anything), and you get what we are dealing with today. 
 

Theres all this talk about how bad it is to keep printing/injecting money into the economy - and I won’t contend that it’s not - but it’s being injected because a small few have figured out how to take it out of the production economy. 

Edited by -jb-
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11 minutes ago, -jb- said:

“The ratio of CEO-to-worker compensation was 320 to 1 in 2019, up from 293 to 1 in 2018 and just 21 to 1 in 1965, according to the Economic Policy Institute.”

You combine this and the hedge fund types (read - making money with no involvement in producing anything), and you get what we are dealing with today. 
 

Theres all this talk about how bad it is to keep printing/injecting money into the economy - and I won’t contend that it’s not - but it’s being injected because a small few have figured out how to take it out of the production economy. 

A great point about the hedge fund people.  My main supplier was run by a couple of them, almost ran us into the ground.

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6 hours ago, moleculo said:

I'm sure this is has all been discussed; I'm late to the party.  Let me give some anecdotal stories:

My company is a manufacturer.  When SHTF last summer, our sales dropped roughly 50%.  to compensate, we furloughed 50% of the staff including labor.  We had 50% of people on the assembly lines, which meant our thru-put was 50% of what it should be - i.e. where we could get a unit out in 1 minute before, it now took 2 minutes.  The furloughed employees were technically laid off - separated from the company to they could collect unemployment and the additional stipend.

When things normalized this year and want to run full steam, a lot of the folks didn't come back.  We are having trouble finding people to work.  We go thru staffing agencies now, and people stick around for a week, maybe two, and leave.

I absolutely think the added unemployment has something to do with it, and raising wages isn't really going to cut it.  We were already paying $10/hour (~$20k/year) starting out.  Now, I don't know how much they were making on unemployment but with the federal COVID supplement, it was probably pretty close.  Why would anyone come back to work, spending 8 hours a day on your feet assembling products when you could be home on the couch for the same money?  I wouldn't. 

Suppose we bumped pay up to $20 per hour - double it.  would that get people back to work?  I doubt it - I mean, if I have proven last year I can survive on my couch and survive making $20K or bust my ### for $40k, I think I'm gonna couch it more.

I agree it's time to end the Federal supplements and for people to go back to work.

How long did your company lay people off for and what was the communication with them like?  If you are paying me $10/hr, I'll have no loyalty to your company.  I'll go find something else.  Not sure why everyone is surprised that people they underpaid have no desire to come back to their crappy jobs.  

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7 minutes ago, FairWarning said:

A great point about the hedge fund people.  My main supplier was run by a couple of them, almost ran us into the ground.

Luckily we can keep the billionaire hedge fund managers at 20% tax cap.

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30 minutes ago, Nugget said:

How long did your company lay people off for and what was the communication with them like?  If you are paying me $10/hr, I'll have no loyalty to your company.  I'll go find something else.  Not sure why everyone is surprised that people they underpaid have no desire to come back to their crappy jobs.  

I don't know the answer to either of your questions.

To your general point though, I agree but in theory we should be able to hire people who don't want to come back to whatever crappy job they were at before. 

It should be a big game of musical chairs except when the music starts playing, no one is moving.

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23 hours ago, Terminalxylem said:

Thirded. And the bolded nearly perfectly describes my viewing habits, except I never started watching news in the first place.

Everyone would have so much better off this past year if they never watched CNN or Fox News, not even once. 

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1 hour ago, -jb- said:

“The ratio of CEO-to-worker compensation was 320 to 1 in 2019, up from 293 to 1 in 2018 and just 21 to 1 in 1965, according to the Economic Policy Institute.”

You combine this and the hedge fund types (read - making money with no involvement in producing anything), and you get what we are dealing with today. 
 

Theres all this talk about how bad it is to keep printing/injecting money into the economy - and I won’t contend that it’s not - but it’s being injected because a small few have figured out how to take it out of the production economy. 

How many ceo' s are you talking about.

How many hedge fund managers are you talking about.

So we are on a path towards hyperinflation out of fairness?   I wonder who will be hurt most.  The small guy you are  concearned about and trying to help or the ceo/hedge fund guy.

 

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On 5/26/2021 at 4:20 PM, Ministry of Pain said:

I'm having a hard time sympathizing with most of the businesses, many who seemed eager to get into the pandemic and change policies almost overnight. I've watched WallStreet SOAR from a low of around 16-17,000? It's doubled from that bottoming out about a year ago, that's absolutely insane to me and most Americans. How can they be making so much money when places were closed? Entire cities or downtown areas of major urban areas were ordered to be shuttered during the pandemic, were they not? 

I'm not doing well on this issue and not finding myself agreeing with folks saying "Good, get their asses back to work"

Was it really a total vacation for everyone?

One benefit for which I have been extremely thankful, long before the pandemic, was the ability to work remotely. I think one silver lining from this time is that companies finally figured out what many of us have known all along, that certain types of employees are far more productive by not going into an office and the company in turn also saves on overhead and travel. Win-win. Many of these tech companies saw their profits explode while their facilities and travel costs went down significantly as a result of the pandemic. They made more money because everything closed while other types of businesses took a heavy hit.

The downside for these companies that won is that many of their employees experienced burnout by being on 20 zoom calls a day, significantly increased workloads, and having almost no work/life balance. And I think we are in store for what will probably be remembered as the great shift change over the next few months with an exodus of unhappy employees leaving one company for another, while others have the chance to finally get back to work. My guess is we have an unprecedented number of people change jobs by the end of the year, especially in tech, finance, and healthcare. 

 

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Has it been addressed earlier in the thread on states vs the federal govt?  If the federal government had delivered unemployment benefits through the IRS, the states couldn't have blocked.  Do we want states to be able to block federal aid?  Can a state turn down stimulus checks for its residents?  

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7 hours ago, moleculo said:

When things normalized this year and want to run full steam, a lot of the folks didn't come back.  We are having trouble finding people to work.  We go thru staffing agencies now, and people stick around for a week, maybe two, and leave.

I absolutely think the added unemployment has something to do with it, and raising wages isn't really going to cut it.  We were already paying $10/hour (~$20k/year) starting out.  Now, I don't know how much they were making on unemployment but with the federal COVID supplement, it was probably pretty close.  Why would anyone come back to work, spending 8 hours a day on your feet assembling products when you could be home on the couch for the same money?  I wouldn't. 

Suppose we bumped pay up to $20 per hour - double it.  would that get people back to work?  I doubt it - I mean, if I have proven last year I can survive on my couch and survive making $20K or bust my ### for $40k, I think I'm gonna couch it more.

I agree it's time to end the Federal supplements and for people to go back to work.

 

There are missing pieces here.

First, some of those people will be hitting their couches. Some will see it as an opportunity to find a cash job under the table somewhere and try to save some money. Others will translate the time into trying to learn a valuable skill ( People are told to "Learn To Code" in a manner where it's spit in their faces, maybe some are actually learning to code)  Some might be learning how to be a plumber, how to weld, trying to start a business making candles or micro greens, etc, etc.

Second, your company let them go and that's understandable. There are two sides to that coin. Your company has to do what's best for itself and it's survival, but the message is your company can't be trusted in an environment where the view of companies as employers in general is toxic. If they were let go once, they can be let go again. Did you get furloughed? Then you didn't have to go through that did you?  ( Or maybe you did and now have to start asking some hard questions)  I own and operate many small businesses. I did not lay anyone off and am grateful I was able to weather it out and not have to do that. But it was not easy. On one hand, I didn't want to punish people who were loyal to me for years and force them to ask themselves how they were going to feed their families. On the other hand, I also didn't want to put that seed of doubt in everyone's head, those who had to get clipped and those who stayed, on their safety and security while working for me. I don't need 80 percent of all my employees ( At this point, close to a thousand total) constantly looking to jump ship or prepare themselves mentally to leap out of the top floor of that proverbial "burning building"

I could have justified a paycut across the board. I nominally pay about 20 percent over market. I find it's more functional for me. I don't struggle to find the best talent, I don't struggle to keep the best talent, I don't struggle with morale, I don't struggle with many petty things that many businesses suffer, I get solid word of mouth, people are more productive, I don't have to eat the brutal costs, direct and indirect, from constant turnover. I didn't do it. But I know many companies would have no choice and some with a choice would still do it and any true corporate entity wouldn't have thought twice before dragging people behind the barn to drop a cap into the back of the rank and file earner's head.

But I want to be fair, lots of situations are different. My situation is very likely unique to many other business owners. Unlike many places, I didn't get too aggressive and try to expand/expand/expand and over leverage myself in boom times, and had a nest egg in place to cover a screwy situation like the pandemic. It's not fair to paint with a totally wide brush here.

In the same vein, there's a flip side to that coin of yours that you either won't see or refuse to see. A guy making 10 bucks an hour in what he thinks is a dead end job that might fire him again at any time might be playing Call Of Duty or spend all day on social media or he could be crushing out coding projects 18 hours a day in the hopes of building something better for himself.

Fired/Laid Off/Furloughed all means the same thing to a guy living check to check and is two pay cycles from being homeless - Get the #### out of my building. Here's a cardboard box, go pack your #### and get out right now.

Loyalty is a two way street. My guys are loyal to me but it was not cheap. It cost me dear. It cost me hard in this pandemic. I can't kick people out and then pour vinegar down their throat for never returning. Who thinks like that? Let's make it very clear, some of you, not all, but clearly a good number of you here are protected by a modern Western society that lets you only drive one side of that coin. You can do and say things and behave and carry values that would normally get you fragged by your own men in any other time and place in the world.

I don't need MOP, the guy who, IIRC, went beserk at a Walgreens and punished a couple of regular working stiffs over a few bags of Swedish Fish, to tell me or anyone else how to run a business. He loves the working man so much that he took his bad day or bad week or bad weekend out of on some folks just trying to get by in life and do an honest day's work over some candy? Like I'm going to listen to him? I'm gonna listen to a guy who was told several times to stop running posts as play by play to some Dolphins games? I'm going to be lectured by the spiritual successor to a homeless man's version of Dan Dierdorf while violating even some very basic economic principles that even some middle schoolers can understand? MOP just seems to think everyone is Jeff Bezos and every business is Amazon and that wide brush needs to be used to slap everyone in the face all at once. What he's not addressing are leases, rent, overhead, utilities, insurance, taxes, licensing fees, legal liability, facing government bloat and bureaucracy and incompetence meeting slapped together COVID19 standards randomly made up on the fly. He's repeating agenda driven MSM talking points in the same manner he went from bizarre outrage to outrage over the Jon Martin/Bully Gate scandal.

Not that simple. Nothing is ever that simple. Have any of you ever stopped to think about how stable FBG is right now? It's a subscription based model. What's the retention rate in a pandemic where a subscription is a luxury compared to food, rent and gasoline? Many of you take it for granted these forums will be here tomorrow, and it's just not that simple. Even businesses where you think  "Well they've made it! They broke through and are living large" is just not the case. I have FU money now, but it took decades, it took a lifetime, and I probably spend more time and soul wrenching defending it ( for the sake of giving my godson something to carry after I'm gone so he can be safe) than the utter bloodshed it took to amass it.

Everything in this life costs blood. Some of you, not all, see it and thinks it's cinematic. Many of you won't figure it out until it's your turn to run the gauntlet. When you are half a pay cycle from being homeless. When you realize your men have turned on you and are about to frag you for treating them like cannon fodder.

The MSM shouts for some of you to be zealots and then many of you can't wait to beat people to death with bags of Swedish Fish. I would actually laugh if it wasn't so utterly tragic.

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3 hours ago, Rich Conway said:

If government pays everyone a UBI of $10K, regardless of work status or salary, there is incentive to take a job.  Even better, the incentive matches the salary of the job.  That is, I would have $5K of incentive to take a $5K job, or $10K of incentive to take a $10K job.  If I sit home, I get $10K.  If I take a $10K job, I get $20K.

The government.  Right.  :rolleyes:

 

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6 hours ago, quick-hands said:

How many ceo' s are you talking about.

How many hedge fund managers are you talking about.

So we are on a path towards hyperinflation out of fairness?   I wonder who will be hurt most.  The small guy you are  concearned about and trying to help or the ceo/hedge fund guy.

 

I’m simply quoting the stat in @FairWarning‘s article. I have not idea how many they’re counting. I don’t understand the rest of your post at all, and I’m not arguing for fairness.
 

My point is this: there’s a wealth disparity right now like we have never seen before, and we’re dicking around talking about how a minimum wage raise will be bad, and “printing money” is bad. A higher average wage would happen naturally if there was more money active in the production economy, but it has been siphoned out by people making massive amounts of money who employ few and make literally nothing.

I don’t know how to fix it, outside of a progressive cap gains tax, but I realize that is riddled with negative effects as well. 

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2 minutes ago, -jb- said:

I’m simply quoting the stat in @FairWarning‘s article. I have not idea how many they’re counting. I don’t understand the rest of your post at all, and I’m not arguing for fairness.
 

My point is this: there’s a wealth disparity right now like we have never seen before, and we’re dicking around talking about how a minimum wage raise will be bad, and “printing money” is bad. A higher average wage would happen naturally if there was more money active in the production economy, but it has been siphoned out by people making massive amounts of money who employ few and make literally nothing.

I don’t know how to fix it, outside of a progressive cap gains tax, but I realize that is riddled with negative effects as well. 

If thats your point. We should know numbers.  As far as hedge funds in the usa we got about 3500.    As far as ceo's.  What size companies are we talking about?  500 employees.  1000?

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15 minutes ago, quick-hands said:

If thats your point. We should know numbers.  As far as hedge funds in the usa we got about 3500.    As far as ceo's.  What size companies are we talking about?  500 employees.  1000?

Here you go. Report states the data is from the top 350 companies ranked by revenue.

https://www.epi.org/publication/ceo-compensation-surged-14-in-2019-to-21-3-million-ceos-now-earn-320-times-as-much-as-a-typical-worker/#:~:text=Using a different “granted” measure,-to-1 in 1989.

 

Another interesting one:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/lisettevoytko/2021/04/08/how-billionaires-got-so-rich-in-2021/?sh=20f7560792c0

13% of billionaires are in finance, the highest concentration of any industry.


Please don’t confuse my posting any of this stuff with “we need to keep dishing money to the little guy.” Not my take at all. I think we should kill the supplemental UI right now to compel people back to work. Without a doubt. All I’m doing is pontificating on how we’ve found ourselves in this mess to begin with. 

Edited by -jb-
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7 minutes ago, -jb- said:

Here you go. Report states the data is from the top 350 companies ranked by revenue.

https://www.epi.org/publication/ceo-compensation-surged-14-in-2019-to-21-3-million-ceos-now-earn-320-times-as-much-as-a-typical-worker/#:~:text=Using a different “granted” measure,-to-1 in 1989.

 

Another interesting one:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/lisettevoytko/2021/04/08/how-billionaires-got-so-rich-in-2021/?sh=20f7560792c0

13% of billionaires are in finance, the highest concentration of any industry.


Please don’t confuse my posting any of this stuff with “we need to keep dishing money to the little guy.” Not my take at all. I think we should kill the supplemental UI right now to compel people back to work. Without a doubt. All I’m doing is pontificating on how we’ve found ourselves in this mess to begin with. 

Can you boil it down 4 me?      How many people?

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10 hours ago, GordonGekko said:

 

There are missing pieces here.

First, some of those people will be hitting their couches. Some will see it as an opportunity to find a cash job under the table somewhere and try to save some money. Others will translate the time into trying to learn a valuable skill ( People are told to "Learn To Code" in a manner where it's spit in their faces, maybe some are actually learning to code)  Some might be learning how to be a plumber, how to weld, trying to start a business making candles or micro greens, etc, etc.

Second, your company let them go and that's understandable. There are two sides to that coin. Your company has to do what's best for itself and it's survival, but the message is your company can't be trusted in an environment where the view of companies as employers in general is toxic. If they were let go once, they can be let go again. Did you get furloughed? Then you didn't have to go through that did you?  ( Or maybe you did and now have to start asking some hard questions)  I own and operate many small businesses. I did not lay anyone off and am grateful I was able to weather it out and not have to do that. But it was not easy. On one hand, I didn't want to punish people who were loyal to me for years and force them to ask themselves how they were going to feed their families. On the other hand, I also didn't want to put that seed of doubt in everyone's head, those who had to get clipped and those who stayed, on their safety and security while working for me. I don't need 80 percent of all my employees ( At this point, close to a thousand total) constantly looking to jump ship or prepare themselves mentally to leap out of the top floor of that proverbial "burning building"

I could have justified a paycut across the board. I nominally pay about 20 percent over market. I find it's more functional for me. I don't struggle to find the best talent, I don't struggle to keep the best talent, I don't struggle with morale, I don't struggle with many petty things that many businesses suffer, I get solid word of mouth, people are more productive, I don't have to eat the brutal costs, direct and indirect, from constant turnover. I didn't do it. But I know many companies would have no choice and some with a choice would still do it and any true corporate entity wouldn't have thought twice before dragging people behind the barn to drop a cap into the back of the rank and file earner's head.

But I want to be fair, lots of situations are different. My situation is very likely unique to many other business owners. Unlike many places, I didn't get too aggressive and try to expand/expand/expand and over leverage myself in boom times, and had a nest egg in place to cover a screwy situation like the pandemic. It's not fair to paint with a totally wide brush here.

In the same vein, there's a flip side to that coin of yours that you either won't see or refuse to see. A guy making 10 bucks an hour in what he thinks is a dead end job that might fire him again at any time might be playing Call Of Duty or spend all day on social media or he could be crushing out coding projects 18 hours a day in the hopes of building something better for himself.

Fired/Laid Off/Furloughed all means the same thing to a guy living check to check and is two pay cycles from being homeless - Get the #### out of my building. Here's a cardboard box, go pack your #### and get out right now.

Loyalty is a two way street. My guys are loyal to me but it was not cheap. It cost me dear. It cost me hard in this pandemic. I can't kick people out and then pour vinegar down their throat for never returning. Who thinks like that? Let's make it very clear, some of you, not all, but clearly a good number of you here are protected by a modern Western society that lets you only drive one side of that coin. You can do and say things and behave and carry values that would normally get you fragged by your own men in any other time and place in the world.

I don't need MOP, the guy who, IIRC, went beserk at a Walgreens and punished a couple of regular working stiffs over a few bags of Swedish Fish, to tell me or anyone else how to run a business. He loves the working man so much that he took his bad day or bad week or bad weekend out of on some folks just trying to get by in life and do an honest day's work over some candy? Like I'm going to listen to him? I'm gonna listen to a guy who was told several times to stop running posts as play by play to some Dolphins games? I'm going to be lectured by the spiritual successor to a homeless man's version of Dan Dierdorf while violating even some very basic economic principles that even some middle schoolers can understand? MOP just seems to think everyone is Jeff Bezos and every business is Amazon and that wide brush needs to be used to slap everyone in the face all at once. What he's not addressing are leases, rent, overhead, utilities, insurance, taxes, licensing fees, legal liability, facing government bloat and bureaucracy and incompetence meeting slapped together COVID19 standards randomly made up on the fly. He's repeating agenda driven MSM talking points in the same manner he went from bizarre outrage to outrage over the Jon Martin/Bully Gate scandal.

Not that simple. Nothing is ever that simple. Have any of you ever stopped to think about how stable FBG is right now? It's a subscription based model. What's the retention rate in a pandemic where a subscription is a luxury compared to food, rent and gasoline? Many of you take it for granted these forums will be here tomorrow, and it's just not that simple. Even businesses where you think  "Well they've made it! They broke through and are living large" is just not the case. I have FU money now, but it took decades, it took a lifetime, and I probably spend more time and soul wrenching defending it ( for the sake of giving my godson something to carry after I'm gone so he can be safe) than the utter bloodshed it took to amass it.

Everything in this life costs blood. Some of you, not all, see it and thinks it's cinematic. Many of you won't figure it out until it's your turn to run the gauntlet. When you are half a pay cycle from being homeless. When you realize your men have turned on you and are about to frag you for treating them like cannon fodder.

The MSM shouts for some of you to be zealots and then many of you can't wait to beat people to death with bags of Swedish Fish. I would actually laugh if it wasn't so utterly tragic.

Dude, you could make many of your points, including some valid ones, without invoking such end-times hyperbole.

Admittedly, the FBG demographic is wealthier and more educated than the general population. But even if we weren't, it's unlikely many of us will ever be hungry, homeless and fighting for our lives.

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15 hours ago, TwinTurbo said:

One benefit for which I have been extremely thankful, long before the pandemic, was the ability to work remotely. I think one silver lining from this time is that companies finally figured out what many of us have known all along, that certain types of employees are far more productive by not going into an office and the company in turn also saves on overhead and travel. Win-win. Many of these tech companies saw their profits explode while their facilities and travel costs went down significantly as a result of the pandemic. They made more money because everything closed while other types of businesses took a heavy hit.

The downside for these companies that won is that many of their employees experienced burnout by being on 20 zoom calls a day, significantly increased workloads, and having almost no work/life balance. And I think we are in store for what will probably be remembered as the great shift change over the next few months with an exodus of unhappy employees leaving one company for another, while others have the chance to finally get back to work. My guess is we have an unprecedented number of people change jobs by the end of the year, especially in tech, finance, and healthcare. 

 

Yup.  Right up to the point that companies realize those work from home folks can easily be replaced by labor in India. For 1/4 the labor rate. 

Working from home has huge risks too.

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