What's new
Fantasy Football - Footballguys Forums

Welcome to Our Forums. Once you've registered and logged in, you're primed to talk football, among other topics, with the sharpest and most experienced fantasy players on the internet.

MT's thread about politics (1 Viewer)

Maurile Tremblay

Administrator
Staff member
This is a thread for discussing political issues. I will moderate this thread by enforcing this rule: stick to discussing political issues or be suspended. I don't need help enforcing that rule. If somebody violates it, don't call him out on it, and don't use the report button. Just trust that I'll see it within a day or two and will handle things from there.

With that stipulation, feel free to discuss whatever you want. Some possible topics:

The Arizona election audit.
The IRS leak
Climate change
California's assault weapons ban
Joe Manchin, HR1, and the filibuster
Critical race theory
Israel and Palestine (and Gaza)
The January 6 commission
Abortion
Hunter Biden
Donald Trump
And so on.

But please stick to political issues. Avoid commenting about other posters. In theory, that's the rule everywhere in the PSF, but I can't enforce it everywhere. I will enforce it here by suspending offenders. (I hope to keep suspensions short for non-repeat offenders.)

 
I'll start with a thought about the erosion of norms. We followed various norms, more or less, for a few centuries; but it seems like we're on a path to violating any norms that stand in the way of a party with the power to break them.

There used to be a norm that the President could nominate Supreme Court Justices during his term, and the Senate wouldn't simply refuse to consider the nominee just because it is controlled by the opposing party. That norm seems done for. I won't list all the others -- there are a lot that have been chipped away at in recent years.

What will be the end result? If parties start doing anything that constitutionally can do to gain or preserve power, without regard for norms, what's the worst that can happen?

A pretty obvious one is that Presidential elections will no longer be democratic. Right now, all 50 states award their delegate votes based on the outcome of an election. But they don't have to. Constitutionally, a gerrymandered state legislature could just award all the delegates to the candidate from the same party without considering the public's votes at all.

Are we headed down that road? Is there a way to turn off of it?

 
Thanks for starting this thread. The only way I can see to turn it off is that centrists need to win elections, and the extremists need to be defeated. On the Democratic side, that means more Biden types need to win, and AOC types need to lose. 
On the Republican side, the Trump nationalists need to be completely repudiated. 

 
I'll start with a thought about the erosion of norms. We followed various norms, more or less, for a few centuries; but it seems like we're on a path to violating any norms that stand in the way of a party with the power to break them.

There used to be a norm that the President could nominate Supreme Court Justices during his term, and the Senate wouldn't simply refuse to consider the nominee just because it is controlled by the opposing party. That norm seems done for. I won't list all the others -- there are a lot that have been chipped away at in recent years.

What will be the end result? If parties start doing anything that constitutionally can do to gain or preserve power, without regard for norms, what's the worst that can happen?

A pretty obvious one is that Presidential elections will no longer be democratic. Right now, all 50 states award their delegate votes based on the outcome of an election. But they don't have to. Constitutionally, a gerrymandered state legislature could just award all the delegates to the candidate from the same party without considering the public's votes at all.

Are we headed down that road? Is there a way to turn off of it?
Great question Maurile.  Extremism has clearly taken hold in our society today. This is true through all walks of life not just politics. There’s no room for the center, drama is the new norm.  I’m honestly frightened of death that there isn’t a way to turn it off. We the people have simply become too addicted to drama and that breeds the extremist.  Add in the social media algorithms that are designed solely to feed us what we want to keep us plugged in and it’s a viscous cycle.  It reminds me of the rat that has access to a button the feeds it an opiate, that rat will forgo food and sleep, ultimately killing itself to get its drug.  

 
Thanks for starting this thread. The only way I can see to turn it off is that centrists need to win elections, and the extremists need to be defeated. On the Democratic side, that means more Biden types need to win, and AOC types need to lose. 
On the Republican side, the Trump nationalists need to be completely repudiated. 
I'm on board with this.

 
Norms are the natural outgrowth of a normal society, meaning that which is usual, typical, or of a regular pattern.  America’s demographics have changed dramatically the last 60 years and that has led to a breakdown of norms and the rise of political extremism.  It’s the topic no one wants to talk about - is diversity a strength or is it the kiss of death?  Can a country exist with multiple nations within it?  Democracies and Republics are fragile things, and the Democrats’ relentless embrace of identity politics and illegal immigration is only making things worse.

 
Thanks for starting this thread. The only way I can see to turn it off is that centrists need to win elections, and the extremists need to be defeated. On the Democratic side, that means more Biden types need to win, and AOC types need to lose. 
On the Republican side, the Trump nationalists need to be completely repudiated. 
The extremists are there for a reason.  You want to eliminate the symptom without addressing the underlying disease.

 
I still am interested in thoughts on why climate change is automatically bad and how we as humans can't adapt.  Or how we shouldn't be trying to adapt rather than wasting resources on fighting it.  

 
I still am interested in thoughts on why climate change is automatically bad and how we as humans can't adapt.  Or how we shouldn't be trying to adapt rather than wasting resources on fighting it.  
Climate change that destroys entire low lying island nations (see Maldives, Marshall Islands) is a bad thing. 

 
Climate change that destroys entire low lying island nations (see Maldives, Marshall Islands) is a bad thing. 
Bad how.  We can move from there.   And it won't happen in a day. It will take time. It will be a fairly slow thing (I dont know how slow however)  so yeah..bad I guess but nothing that severe. Alexandria is under water.  Thats not a big deal today is it?  We seemed to turn out ok anyway

 
Last edited by a moderator:
Bad how.  We can move from there.   And it won't happen in a day. It will take time. It will be a fairly slow thing (I dont know how slow however)  so yeah..bad I guess but nothing that severe. Alexandria is under water.  Thats not a big deal today is it?  We seemed to turn out ok anyway
My feeling is this should be a walk and chew gum type situation. To your point climate change happens regardless of human interference so yes we need to learn how to adapt. I also think there’s enough evidence at this point to clearly show how we are influencing or speeding up this natural process. We should be working to slow down our influence on the process while also working on how to adapt to the inevitable change.  

 
Bad how.  We can move from there.   And it won't happen in a day. It will take time. It will be a fairly slow thing (I dont know how slow however)  so yeah..bad I guess but nothing that severe. Alexandria is under water.  Thats not a big deal today is it?  We seemed to turn out ok anyway
I love in Southern California. I love it here. I don’t want it to go underwater. That’s not an acceptable price to pay for simply accepting climate change without fighting it. 

 
The extremists are there for a reason.  You want to eliminate the symptom without addressing the underlying disease.
The problem is we disagree on what the underlying disease is. Based on your last post you seem to think it’s our diversity. I think it’s economic insecurity based on globalization, which is inevitable and ultimately a good thing, though there may be bad results in the interim. I think that insecurity causes people to blame diversity, and immigrants (legal or illegal) because they provide easy scapegoats. 

 
Norms are the natural outgrowth of a normal society, meaning that which is usual, typical, or of a regular pattern.  America’s demographics have changed dramatically the last 60 years and that has led to a breakdown of norms and the rise of political extremism.  It’s the topic no one wants to talk about - is diversity a strength or is it the kiss of death?  Can a country exist with multiple nations within it?  Democracies and Republics are fragile things, and the Democrats’ relentless embrace of identity politics and illegal immigration is only making things worse.
Or from a different perspective, the bigots and sexists are frightened of losing their grip on power while historically oppressed groups see the cracks in the status quo and are emboldened to push for greater change. You can't claim democracies are fragile just because the votes no longer go your way.

 
Bad how.  We can move from there.   And it won't happen in a day. It will take time. It will be a fairly slow thing (I dont know how slow however)  so yeah..bad I guess but nothing that severe. Alexandria is under water.  Thats not a big deal today is it?  We seemed to turn out ok anyway
I don't think allowing cultures to be erased and telling the people "just move" is a great plan.  Might have been OK 3000 years ago but not any more. 

 
We can move from there.   
Also, if you’re concerned about the number of refugees who wind up on our southern border, this is one of the biggest reasons. The drought caused by climate change in the Southern Hemisphere is already resulting in starvation. Of course they’re going to come, in ever larger numbers, unless this is addressed. 

 
DaVinci said:
Or from a different perspective, the bigots and sexists are frightened of losing their grip on power while historically oppressed groups see the cracks in the status quo and are emboldened to push for greater change. You can't claim democracies are fragile just because the votes no longer go your way.
Call it what you will, but the fact remains that America is more Balkanized than ever, and it’s no coincidence that political extremism has arisen at the same time.  The melting pot has been replaced with identity politics, and this leads to divisiveness and polarization.  We can’t even agree on the national anthem anymore.  Sorry to be a Debby Downer but I think the odds of this country being in its current form 15 years from now is 50/50.

 
Maurile Tremblay said:
A pretty obvious one is that Presidential elections will no longer be democratic. Right now, all 50 states award their delegate votes based on the outcome of an election. But they don't have to. Constitutionally, a gerrymandered state legislature could just award all the delegates to the candidate from the same party without considering the public's votes at all.

Are we headed down that road? Is there a way to turn off of it?
The Republicans very openly flirted with this idea -- or at least a watered-down version of this idea -- and they didn't seem to pay a political price for having done so.  So yeah, I'd say we're headed down that road, or we're at least close enough to the on-ramp that we should be concerned.

Parties very rarely get punished for violating norms.  With regard to judicial nominations, for example, neither party has ever gotten dinged for treating the other tribe's nominees poorly.  If there's no downside to norm-breaking other than guilt and personal shame, it shouldn't be surprising that we see a lot of norm-breaking and an elevation of the most shameless people in elected office.

 
dkp993 said:
My feeling is this should be a walk and chew gum type situation. To your point climate change happens regardless of human interference so yes we need to learn how to adapt. I also think there’s enough evidence at this point to clearly show how we are influencing or speeding up this natural process. We should be working to slow down our influence on the process while also working on how to adapt to the inevitable change.  
That doesn't answer the question as to why we need to stop it.  I need reasons beyond just because.

 
timschochet said:
I love in Southern California. I love it here. I don’t want it to go underwater. That’s not an acceptable price to pay for simply accepting climate change without fighting it. 
Again, that's not good enough for me.  I understand you want to protect what's yours.  But that argument just won't sell me.  If we are trying to fight change just for the sake of fighting it, that's a losing proposition.

 
timschochet said:
Also, if you’re concerned about the number of refugees who wind up on our southern border, this is one of the biggest reasons. The drought caused by climate change in the Southern Hemisphere is already resulting in starvation. Of course they’re going to come, in ever larger numbers, unless this is addressed. 
I disagree with this premise.  I've seen it and I am not convinced it's what we are being told by those that want to fight CC.  I think a larger problem is there are too many people in these countries.  Far too many people for the standard of living available.  "Fixing" climate change will not alleviate this problem.  

 
The Z Machine said:
I don't think allowing cultures to be erased and telling the people "just move" is a great plan.  Might have been OK 3000 years ago but not any more. 
Well you say it like tomorrow we are going to tell these people..   OK! You have 30 days to vacate.  It doesn't work like that.  It will be a slow migration.  People will just naturally take up shelter in places that can support them.  So that argument, while sounding nice, doesn't have much merit.  

 
The Republicans very openly flirted with this idea -- or at least a watered-down version of this idea -- and they didn't seem to pay a political price for having done so.  So yeah, I'd say we're headed down that road, or we're at least close enough to the on-ramp that we should be concerned.

Parties very rarely get punished for violating norms.  With regard to judicial nominations, for example, neither party has ever gotten dinged for treating the other tribe's nominees poorly.  If there's no downside to norm-breaking other than guilt and personal shame, it shouldn't be surprising that we see a lot of norm-breaking and an elevation of the most shameless people in elected office.
Agreed and that is a huge problem lately.  There is no political price for poor actions.  There is some hand slapping for a bit in places like this or in the press.  But then its largely forgiven or forgotten and the bad behavior becomes the new norm.

 
The Republicans very openly flirted with this idea -- or at least a watered-down version of this idea -- and they didn't seem to pay a political price for having done so.  So yeah, I'd say we're headed down that road, or we're at least close enough to the on-ramp that we should be concerned.

Parties very rarely get punished for violating norms.  With regard to judicial nominations, for example, neither party has ever gotten dinged for treating the other tribe's nominees poorly.  If there's no downside to norm-breaking other than guilt and personal shame, it shouldn't be surprising that we see a lot of norm-breaking and an elevation of the most shameless people in elected office.
This is all pretty obviously true.  I would contend that it's fueled, for the most part, by the rise of the 24-hour news cycle and the need for eyeballs/clicks, as well as social media algorithms that create self-reinforcing echo chambers.  Unfortunately, those things aren't going away any time soon.

The trickier part is the solutions, although there are some obvious ones.  Ranked-choice voting seems obvious as a solution, but hard to implement, as the people who currently control the voting process (incumbents) would be most harmed by it.  Ditto for the elimination of winner-take-all and the implementation of a more proportional representation system.

 
Norms are easier to maintain when the stakes are perceived as lower.  Right now the perception on both sides of the aisle is that the stakes are really really high.  You can see it in the posts on this board. Democrats think Republicans will end democracy as we know it. Republicans think Democrats destroy the country’s economy and social fabric.  When forced to choose between maintaining a norm or saving the country from the evil, incompetent people on the other side of the aisle, most people will choose to violate the norm. 
 

To me the solutions therefore involve both: 1) trying to codify norms into law so they can’t be disregarded as easily; and 2) trying to lower stakes as much as possible.  For example, part of the reason for norm-breaking over Supreme Court nominees is because they have lifetime tenure so each nominee is hugely consequential.  I think we would be much more likely to return to sanity if Supreme Court Justices were term-limited.  Because then instead of losing a majority on the Court for a lifetime it would   be possible for a party to retake the majority in just a few years.

 
Norms are easier to maintain when the stakes are perceived as lower.  Right now the perception on both sides of the aisle is that the stakes are really really high.  You can see it in the posts on this board. Democrats think Republicans will end democracy as we know it. Republicans think Democrats destroy the country’s economy and social fabric.  When forced to choose between maintaining a norm or saving the country from the evil, incompetent people on the other side of the aisle, most people will choose to violate the norm. 
 

To me the solutions therefore involve both: 1) trying to codify norms into law so they can’t be disregarded as easily; and 2) trying to lower stakes as much as possible.  For example, part of the reason for norm-breaking over Supreme Court nominees is because they have lifetime tenure so each nominee is hugely consequential.  I think we would be much more likely to return to sanity if Supreme Court Justices were term-limited.  Because then instead of losing a majority on the Court for a lifetime it would   be possible for a party to retake the majority in just a few years.
This is a really good idea. 

 
No party affiliate here. I usually vote Dem. 

My beliefs:

1. Women should have a choice on what they do with their bodies.

2. Gun sales need a solid background check.

3. Weed should be legal everywhere. 

4. Voting restrictions are very bad.

5. Science must be believed when it comes to climate.

6. Solar and wind power are good things. Coal is bad. Fracking is bad.

7. This nation is built on immigration. All 4 of my grandparents were Irish immigrants. All for legal immigration.

8. The filibuster is ridiculous. Not a fan of Manchen.

9. Nancy Pelosi should retire.

10. Supreme court needs to be balanced.

11. I am a fan of Andrew Yang.

12. Minimum wage needs to progress to $15 over a few years.

13. Do not short the police.

14. Everyone should pay taxes.

 
Maurile Tremblay said:
A pretty obvious one is that Presidential elections will no longer be democratic. Right now, all 50 states award their delegate votes based on the outcome of an election. But they don't have to. Constitutionally, a gerrymandered state legislature could just award all the delegates to the candidate from the same party without considering the public's votes at all.

Are we headed down that road? Is there a way to turn off of it?
This is one of the biggest concerns I have. Imagine how difficult governing the country will become if a majority of voters believe that they can't win elections without a landslide margin of victory. Why would they believe that the system is credible?

The fix is fairly simple -- proportional representation, ending state control of election processes and abolishing the EC -- but almost impossible to achieve politically.

We're generally correct in our mistrust of elections but for the wrong reasons. It's not a fraud problem; it's a representation problem.

 
To me the solutions therefore involve both: 1) trying to codify norms into law so they can’t be disregarded as easily; and 2) trying to lower stakes as much as possible.
The second part is a classic libertarian talking point. Lower the stakes of elections by giving politicians less power.

That's one of the arguments for construing the Commerce Clause as granting Congress only finite powers.

There's a balancing act between giving politicians enough power to accomplish worthwhile things and giving them so much power that it leads to systemic corruption (including the subversion of norms for corrupt or partisan ends).

 
Last edited by a moderator:
That doesn't answer the question as to why we need to stop it.  I need reasons beyond just because.
I think it does and there’s very much a “why” in the answer provided.  
 

If we are artificially speeding up a naturally destructive force that will require us to adapt we should try to slow down or stop speeding it up.  This will give us more time to adapt.  

 
I think it does and there’s very much a “why” in the answer provided.  
 

If we are artificially speeding up a naturally destructive force that will require us to adapt we should try to slow down or stop speeding it up.  This will give us more time to adapt.  
Too simple for me.   Sorry.   "Climate change is bad so we must stop it" doesn't sell me.  We are talking about resources here.  How-- why-- where.  Changes WE need to make in order to some how change the line to "climate change stopped completely, its good."    There are limits to almost everything in life.  So i can't just go with the simple answers.

That's close to the "If we save one life, it's worth it." defense.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
Too simple for me.   Sorry.   "Climate change is bad so we must stop it" doesn't sell me.  We are talking about resources here.  How-- why-- where.  Changes WE need to make in order to some how change the line to "climate change stopped completely, its good."    There are limits to almost everything in life.  So i can't just go with the simple answers.

That's close to the "If we save one life, it's worth it." defense.
Agree to disagree 

 
Too simple for me.   Sorry.   "Climate change is bad so we must stop it" doesn't sell me.  We are talking about resources here.  How-- why-- where.  Changes WE need to make in order to some how change the line to "climate change stopped completely, its good."    There are limits to almost everything in life.  So i can't just go with the simple answers.

That's close to the "If we save one life, it's worth it." defense.
Climate change is a byproduct of humans raping the natural world.  Deforestation, polluting and over fishing the oceans, industrial animal agriculture, fossil fuel consumption, and the list goes on. 

The combined effect of all of these activities is that the planet is heating up at an exponential rate that is not at all in keeping with the earth’s historical natural rhythms.  The effects will be catastrophic not only for humans, but for the rest of the species on this planet.  The oceans in particular are concerning.   

If nothing is done about it wars will be started.  Out of necessity.  You think immigration is a problem now?  Wait until climate change displaces hundreds of millions of people due to flooding and soil erosion.  I agree with you that overpopulation is a problem.  But climate change is going to magnify that problem in short order. 

On a macro level humanity will no doubt adapt and survive.  On a micro level there will be a lot of death and suffering.  For us and the creatures we share this planet with.  We will likely not live long enough to experience it.  But this reality is just around the corner for future generations.  Which is why young people are so invested in arresting the destruction.  

 
Last edited by a moderator:
Climate change is a byproduct of humans raping the natural world.  Deforestation, polluting and over fishing the oceans, industrial animal agriculture, fossil fuel consumption, and the list goes on. 

The combined effect of all of these activities is that the planet is heating up at an exponential rate that is not at all in keeping with the earth’s historical natural rhythms.  The effects will be catastrophic not only for humans, but for the rest of the species on this planet.  The oceans in particular are concerning.   

If nothing is done about it wars will be started.  Out of necessity.  You think immigration is a problem now?  Wait until climate change displaces hundreds of millions of people due to flooding and soil erosion.  I agree with you that overpopulation is a problem.  But climate change is going to magnify that problem in short order. 

On a macro level humanity will no doubt adapt and survive.  On a micro level there will be a lot of death and suffering.  For us and the creatures we share this planet with.  We will not likely not live long enough to experience it.  But this reality is just around the corner for future generations.  Which is why young people are so invested in arresting the destruction.  
Now...One argument that I can get behind is the ocean one.  If climate change destroys the food chain, well that's the ball game obviously.  Not sure that the jury is in on that, but that's one that would affect my thinking on the subject.

Now..as for other creatures..meh.  What's the list again? Don't literally millions of species go extinct every year?  If thy wanna survive they will have to adapt too. And as far as immigration I already addressed that.  The countries that can't afford to support the booming population should try to work n that, rather than telling me I have to walk to work rather than drive.

 
As recently as the 20th century, minds no less than John von Neumann’s argued that the positives of a warmer world would outweigh the negatives. Not saying I agree, but I am saying that it is not as simple as climate change = bad.

Learn about John von Neumann

 
As recently as the 20th century, minds no less than John von Neumann’s argued that the positives of a warmer world would outweigh the negatives. Not saying I agree, but I am saying that it is not as simple as climate change = bad.

Learn about John von Neumann
von Neumann was brilliant, but he didn't have access to modern climate modeling techniques.  "We might be collectively better off if the world was a little warmer" was a totally plausible thing to believe 70 years ago.  "The cost of abating climate change outweighs the benefits" was also a totally plausible thing to believe just a few decades ago.  Things have changed in the meantime.  JVM would probably be among the first to point this out.

 
Now...One argument that I can get behind is the ocean one.  If climate change destroys the food chain, well that's the ball game obviously.  Not sure that the jury is in on that, but that's one that would affect my thinking on the subject.

Now..as for other creatures..meh.  What's the list again? Don't literally millions of species go extinct every year?  If thy wanna survive they will have to adapt too. And as far as immigration I already addressed that.  The countries that can't afford to support the booming population should try to work n that, rather than telling me I have to walk to work rather than drive.
It is not as simple as saying other countries need to handle their own ####.  The fact is the displacement of millions of people, which will be accelerated by climate change, will have massive geopolitical and national security repercussions for us in the developed world.  

Humanity is destroying the planet.   And there will be huge consequences unless we stop.  

 
supermike80 said:
I still am interested in thoughts on why climate change is automatically bad and how we as humans can't adapt.
About 65 million years ago, an asteroid hit the earth and shook things up. It killed off a lot of species. It didn't kill them off by landing on them and crushing their bones. Its effect on the climate did most of the damage. Organisms thrive in the environment they are adapted to. When you shake up the environment, many of those organisms (and the entire species they belong to) die off. Many others survive in dire discomfort for many, many generations. A few may like the changes right off the bat.

If an asteroid were to hit the earth again tomorrow, it would wreak changes to the climate that would similarly kill off a lot of species and make life very uncomfortable for most of the survivors (including humans).

If we could figure out a way to send Ben Affleck and his team up to the asteroid to break it apart before it crashes to earth, thus avoiding the climate change resulting from impact, would you be against doing so?

If your answer is different for man-made climate change than it is for asteroid-induced climate change ... why?

 
Last edited by a moderator:
About 65 million years ago, an asteroid hit the earth and shook things up. It killed off a lot of species. It didn't kill them off by landing on them and crushing their bones. It was its effect on the climate that did most of the damage. Organisms thrive in the environment they are adapted to. When you shake up the environment, many of those organisms (and the entire species they belong to) die off. Many others survive in dire discomfort for many, many generations. A few may like the changes right off the bat.

If an asteroid were to hit the earth again tomorrow, it would wreak changes to the climate that would similarly kill off a lot of species and make life very uncomfortable for most of the survivors (including humans).

If we could figure out a way to send Ben Affleck and his team up to the asteroid to break it apart before it crashes to earth, thus avoiding the climate change resulting from impact, would you be against doing so?

If your answer is different for man-made climate change than it is for asteroid-induced climate change ... why?
Why?  Timing.  That asteroid allegedly( I have seen multiple theories) caused instant catastrophic destruction.  Then lingered on.   SImilar to nuclear winter.

 
Put me in the camp of very concerned by the erosion of norms. The first and foremost ones to address are those around the election of president. I'm not sure what can be done about the candidate not conceding, but it seems like a lot could be done around better codifying into law the arcane processes that were simply formalities before 2020/2021. 

 
That's pretty similar to man-made climate change. In the grand scheme of things, a few centuries is instant.
Well I don't agree with you there.   And I am not disputing climate change.  I think there is enough evidence to understand it might be real.  I'm arguing the point if whether its smarter to take our limited resources and direct them toward adaptation rather that elimination.  I don't see the latter being even close to achievable.  

So to use your asteroid / Ben Affleck comparison.  What might be better? We know the asteroid is coming.. We have some time to react.  Do we send 8 poorly trained drillers to try to blow the thing in half to protect us OR do we work on finding ways to protect us and our species when it hits?

 
This is all pretty obviously true.  I would contend that it's fueled, for the most part, by the rise of the 24-hour news cycle and the need for eyeballs/clicks, as well as social media algorithms that create self-reinforcing echo chambers.  Unfortunately, those things aren't going away any time soon.

The trickier part is the solutions, although there are some obvious ones.  Ranked-choice voting seems obvious as a solution, but hard to implement, as the people who currently control the voting process (incumbents) would be most harmed by it.  Ditto for the elimination of winner-take-all and the implementation of a more proportional representation system.
A more proportional representation system is the only way to have more than two viable parties for more than an election cycle or two. Under the current system, a third party can make a run at winning a national election temporarily, but eventually it will either fold into one of the existing parties, or it will become one of the two dominant parties by causing the displaced party to fold into it.

One of the drawbacks of a system with just two major parties is that there really can't be a centrist party. In many other democratic countries, a centrist party builds a coalition that faces pressure from both more right-leaning parties and more left-leaning parties. It's usually easier to build a coalition from the center than from the fringes. This is a nice feature.

In the United States, neither major party is really a centrist party. As long as popular elections decide things, there is a natural pull toward the center in general elections. The party that sticks closer to the center will generally win the popular vote. (See: median voter theorem.) This, too, is a nice feature.

But if we do away with the popular vote, I believe things can go to hell very quickly. The electoral college is close enough to the popular vote that I don't think eliminating it should be much of a priority. (Indeed, there are decent arguments for keeping it even if we had the choice to do away with it. For one thing, the electoral college makes recounts possible. It'd be nearly impossible to do a recount of the national popular vote -- which would make close, contested elections a total poop show.)

But that assumes that the electoral college will be constrained by the popular vote in each state. If highly gerrymandered state legislatures decide to do away with the popular vote for President, all hell may break loose. Our democracy may perish*.

That seems like a very serious concern that ought to be a much greater focus than mere voter suppression. People can often overcome voter suppression by standing in line longer. How can they overcome just having their votes not count at all?

It would have been trivial, I think, a decade or two ago, to ratify a constitutional amendment saying that each state must award the majority of its delegates to whichever candidate wins a majority (or maybe a plurality) of that state's popular vote in any Presidential election.

Today, I don't think it would pass. Instead of being viewed as an obvious procedural housekeeping rule, it would be viewed as a partisan power grab.

_____
*This seems like a good reason for Congress to try to do something about gerrymandering in state legislatures, to whatever extend that's possible.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
Well I don't agree with you there.   And I am not disputing climate change.  I think there is enough evidence to understand it might be real.  I'm arguing the point if whether its smarter to take our limited resources and direct them toward adaptation rather that elimination.  I don't see the latter being even close to achievable.  

So to use your asteroid / Ben Affleck comparison.  What might be better? We know the asteroid is coming.. We have some time to react.  Do we send 8 poorly trained drillers to try to blow the thing in half to protect us OR do we work on finding ways to protect us and our species when it hits?
I wouldn't want to be in charge of trying to come up with a reasonable argument not to send the drillers up there, whatever else we do or don't do.

 
I was talking to a lobbyist last night and he was telling me about a grassroots campaign to eliminate primaries - as well as institute ranked choice voting. The more I thought about it, the more I liked the idea. I think getting rid of primaries could be a huge step in getting rid of the extreme candidates.

 
Well I don't agree with you there.   And I am not disputing climate change.  I think there is enough evidence to understand it might be real.  I'm arguing the point if whether its smarter to take our limited resources and direct them toward adaptation rather that elimination.  I don't see the latter being even close to achievable.  

So to use your asteroid / Ben Affleck comparison.  What might be better? We know the asteroid is coming.. We have some time to react.  Do we send 8 poorly trained drillers to try to blow the thing in half to protect us OR do we work on finding ways to protect us and our species when it hits?
I think maybe you missed the end of the movie. 😀

 
I was talking to a lobbyist last night and he was telling me about a grassroots campaign to eliminate primaries - as well as institute ranked choice voting. The more I thought about it, the more I liked the idea. I think getting rid of primaries could be a huge step in getting rid of the extreme candidates.
I'm a big fan of the idea of ranked-choice voting.

California has experimented a bit in getting rid of primaries. For many state or local positions, primaries still exist, but they are non-denominational. There aren't Republican and Democratic primaries. Democrats and Republicans are all thrown into a single primary for the purpose of whittling the field down from nine candidates to two. Then the two candidates face off in the general election. The two finalists can both be from the same party.

I think it's an interesting idea, but there are drawbacks. First, if Republicans vote for Republicans and Democrats vote for Democrats, it doesn't really do anything to reduce extremism. The winning Democrat won't have to get any Republican votes to win the primary, so he'll still just court the median Democrat (as opposed to the median voter) as in any other primary. Second, if the nine candidates in the primary consist of seven Democrats and two Republicans, the two Republicans could end up as the finalists if they split the Republican vote (40% of the electorate) while the Democrats split the Democratic vote (60% of the electorate). So you'd have the minority party occupy both spots in the general, with the majority party not having any representation.

Still, I'm in favor of experimenting along these lines.

 
Last edited by a moderator:

Users who are viewing this thread

Top