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MT's thread about politics (1 Viewer)

IvanKaramazov said:
I agree with your second point.  If Ben & Jerry's wants to boycott Israel, they should be free to do so.  It's literally nobody else's business but theirs.

That said, this is pretty obviously anti-Semitic.  The Israeli government is no more above criticism than our own government, but if a business is cool with China but not cool with Israel, it's fair to ask why, but we all know the (((answer))).
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I don't think that's true at all.   It could be as simple as China controlling its information so the decision-makers at Ben and Jerry's don't see Chinese video of little girls being blown to bits by missiles.  Or maybe they visited Palestine and are reacting to their observations.

Amnesty International ranks countries based on the number and severity of their human rights violations.   If they rank Israel as worse than any other country, by your theory they're anti-Semitic.   

 
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the rover said:
I don't think that's true at all.   It could be as simple as China controlling its information so the decision-makers at Ben and Jerry's don't see Chinese video of little girls being blown to bits by missiles.  Or maybe they visited Palestine and are reacting to their observations.

Amnesty International ranks countries based on the number and severity of their human rights violations.   If they rank Israel as worse than any other country, by your theory they're anti-Semitic.   
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China is committing actual, honest-to-goodness genocide against Muslims.  On one level, I applaud your commitment to defending that, but on another level, goodness gracious.

 
On a side note, I really enjoy it when a poster is in one thread explaining why censorship is good, and then jumps into a thread like this to explain why anti-BDS legislation is bad.  It makes you (((think))).

 
IvanKaramazov said:
China is committing actual, honest-to-goodness genocide against Muslims.  On one level, I applaud your commitment to defending that, but on another level, goodness gracious.
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So why aren't boycotts of China labelled anti-Asian and legislation in place to prevent them?   Boycotts of Saudi Arabia anti-Muslim or anti-Arab?

If a company can boycott China over human rights violations, they should  be able to boycott Israel without hitting the "anti-Semitism" third rail.    The fact that as a country we're trying to criminalize such boycotts but only of a single country is baffling.   It's either wrong or it isn't.

 
IvanKaramazov said:
On a side note, I really enjoy it when a poster is in one thread explaining why censorship is good, and then jumps into a thread like this to explain why anti-BDS legislation is bad.  It makes you (((think))).
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Odd how one size doesn't fit all   It's almost like nuance exists, facts matter and that sweeping generalizations aren't all that useful.

 
the rover said:
So why aren't boycotts of China labelled anti-Asian and legislation in place to prevent them?   Boycotts of Saudi Arabia anti-Muslim or anti-Arab?

If a company can boycott China over human rights violations, they should  be able to boycott Israel without hitting the "anti-Semitism" third rail.    The fact that as a country we're trying to criminalize such boycotts but only of a single country is baffling.   It's either wrong or it isn't.
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I think people of all stripes should be allowed to do business or not do business with whoever they want for any reason they want.  If a small business owner decides that he doesn't want to hire black people, for example, I think he should be allowed to act accordingly.  It's deplorable and racist, but it's his business, not mine.  

If a firm wants to single out (((Israel))) for a boycott, that's fine with me.  Just observing. 

 
IvanKaramazov said:
A little.  It makes me suspect that they're more routinely stupid than anti-Semitic. 
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I still haven't heard an explanation of why it is stupid or anti-Semitic to boycott Israel over actions and policies they object to as contrary to their core values.   Even if you agree with the treatment of the occupied territories, you'd still recognize that others are free to view their actions as inhumane?

 
Just to clarify. Ben and Jerry's is still selling ice cream in Israel? From my reading it sounds like they only stopped selling ice cream in the West Bank and East Jerusalem.

 
tymarsas said:
Just to clarify. Ben and Jerry's is still selling ice cream in Israel? From my reading it sounds like they only stopped selling ice cream in the West Bank and East Jerusalem.
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Yes, although my understanding based on their statement is that they currently have a single distributor who handles both Israel and the territories, and as a result of this decision they will need to find a new distributor in Israel. Which could be tough given that there will likely be a lot of negative publicity around this move. 

 
the rover said:
I still haven't heard an explanation of why it is stupid or anti-Semitic to boycott Israel over actions and policies they object to as contrary to their core values.   Even if you agree with the treatment of the occupied territories, you'd still recognize that others are free to view their actions as inhumane?
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I'm old enough to remember back a few weeks ago, when we were told by The Blue Tribe that criticism of China was causing a wave of violence against Asian-Americans.  Things like Trump calling it the "China Flu" over a year ago, people talking about the lab leak theory, etc. were all low-key racist incitements to violence.  The standard then seemed to be something like "Criticizing a foreign government incites racist violence against people of that ethnicity living in the US."

A few weeks later, The Blue Tribe is now telling me that Israel -- homeland of the Jews, who have famously never had to deal with ethnic persecution -- is uniquely evil and worthy of sanction.  I use the term "uniquely" here deliberately, because people who support sanctions against Israel almost never support similar sanctions against China, and they literally never support the embargo against Cuba.  It's just Israel that gets singled out for some reason that I guess will always be a mystery.

I disagree with both arguments -- criticizing China is fine, and Israel is not uniquely bad -- but if you believe both, you are anti-Semitic by your own standards.  I'm just listening to the other tribe and trying to believe them.

Feel free to boycott whoever you want.  It's your right to avoid associating with groups that you dislike.  You do you.

 
IvanKaramazov said:
I'm old enough to remember back a few weeks ago, when we were told by The Blue Tribe that criticism of China was causing a wave of violence against Asian-Americans.  Things like Trump calling it the "China Flu" over a year ago, people talking about the lab leak theory, etc. were all low-key racist incitements to violence.  The standard then seemed to be something like "Criticizing a foreign government incites racist violence against people of that ethnicity living in the US."

A few weeks later, The Blue Tribe is now telling me that Israel -- homeland of the Jews, who have famously never had to deal with ethnic persecution -- is uniquely evil and worthy of sanction.  I use the term "uniquely" here deliberately, because people who support sanctions against Israel almost never support similar sanctions against China, and they literally never support the embargo against Cuba.  It's just Israel that gets singled out for some reason that I guess will always be a mystery.

I disagree with both arguments -- criticizing China is fine, and Israel is not uniquely bad -- but if you believe both, you are anti-Semitic by your own standards.  I'm just listening to the other tribe and trying to believe them.

Feel free to boycott whoever you want.  It's your right to avoid associating with groups that you dislike.  You do you.
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I think there's a big part of the equation that you are leaving out.  American Jews make up many of the most prominent voices criticizing Israel for the treatment of Palestinians.  The J Street PAC is a prominent lobbying organization that is primarily run by and funded by American Jews that tries to change Israeli policy towards Palestinians.  I personally am an American Jew that is highly critical of Israel. I have engaged in multiple group discussions at my (very liberal) synagogue in which the majority of people are highly critical of Israel.  It strikes me as absurd to think any of this is motivated by antisemitism.

The much more likely reason to me is that these critiques are motivated by the close connection between Israel and American Jews.  Ever since I was a little kid in Hebrew School I've been learning about Israel.  My grandfather was a major supporter of Israel.  I have relatives that live there.  I have been there twice in my life despite the fact that I have done very little international travel overall.  There are multiple different programs that will pay for American teens to travel to Israel for free.  In many ways American Jews consider Israel to be a second homeland.  And a lot of us are ashamed of its actions.

Without a doubt the country I am most critical of on these boards is the United States.  That's not because I think we are the worst country.  It's because as an American citizen I feel like I have a personal stake in the country's actions.  I don't want the United States to be an oppressor or a bully on my behalf.  I think the same thing is going on when American Jews are critical of Israel. 

 
fatguyinalittlecoat said:
I think there's a big part of the equation that you are leaving out.  American Jews make up many of the most prominent voices criticizing Israel for the treatment of Palestinians.  The J Street PAC is a prominent lobbying organization that is primarily run by and funded by American Jews that tries to change Israeli policy towards Palestinians.  I personally am an American Jew that is highly critical of Israel. I have engaged in multiple group discussions at my (very liberal) synagogue in which the majority of people are highly critical of Israel.  It strikes me as absurd to think any of this is motivated by antisemitism.

The much more likely reason to me is that these critiques are motivated by the close connection between Israel and American Jews.  Ever since I was a little kid in Hebrew School I've been learning about Israel.  My grandfather was a major supporter of Israel.  I have relatives that live there.  I have been there twice in my life despite the fact that I have done very little international travel overall.  There are multiple different programs that will pay for American teens to travel to Israel for free.  In many ways American Jews consider Israel to be a second homeland.  And a lot of us are ashamed of its actions.

Without a doubt the country I am most critical of on these boards is the United States.  That's not because I think we are the worst country.  It's because as an American citizen I feel like I have a personal stake in the country's actions.  I don't want the United States to be an oppressor or a bully on my behalf.  I think the same thing is going on when American Jews are critical of Israel. 
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I do get that, and to be clear, I'm not criticizing you here.  All governments everywhere are fair game when it comes to criticism.  That obviously includes Israel.

I am, however, very critical of people who want to shout down criticism of some governments (China, or Cuba for that matter) but carve out a special exception for Israel.  Also businesses and individual consumers who single out Israel for boycotts.  If people are adopting one set of standards for Israel and another set of standards for everybody else, it's fair to ask why, and it's not too difficult to come up with the answer.  

 
IvanKaramazov said:
I do get that, and to be clear, I'm not criticizing you here.  All governments everywhere are fair game when it comes to criticism.  That obviously includes Israel.

I am, however, very critical of people who want to shout down criticism of some governments (China, or Cuba for that matter) but carve out a special exception for Israel.  Also businesses and individual consumers who single out Israel for boycotts.  If people are adopting one set of standards for Israel and another set of standards for everybody else, it's fair to ask why, and it's not too difficult to come up with the answer.  
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Particularly when the response is “racism” and not something like “well you shouldn’t criticize China because their human rights record is flawless”.

It’s the same playbook being used over and over.  

 
IvanKaramazov said:
I do get that, and to be clear, I'm not criticizing you here.  All governments everywhere are fair game when it comes to criticism.  That obviously includes Israel.

I am, however, very critical of people who want to shout down criticism of some governments (China, or Cuba for that matter) but carve out a special exception for Israel.  Also businesses and individual consumers who single out Israel for boycotts.  If people are adopting one set of standards for Israel and another set of standards for everybody else, it's fair to ask why, and it's not too difficult to come up with the answer.  
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I don't think criticizing certain people for repeatedly using the terms China Virus and Kung Flu is remotely the same as "shouting down criticism of the Chinese government".  Be critical of any government you want, in my book.  Don't be racist (Kung Flu) or obfuscating and stupid (China Virus) about it.  As individuals (or corporations), boycott whoever you want.

 
IvanKaramazov said:
 If people are adopting one set of standards for Israel and another set of standards for everybody else, it's fair to ask why, and it's not too difficult to come up with the answer.  
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Well maybe it's a little more difficult than you think.  There are lots of reasons other than antisemitism why someone might be more outspoken in criticism of Israel than in criticism of China.  You are settling on an easy answer to a complex issue.

 
Rich Conway said:
I don't think criticizing certain people for repeatedly using the terms China Virus and Kung Flu is remotely the same as "shouting down criticism of the Chinese government".  Be critical of any government you want, in my book.  Don't be racist (Kung Flu) or obfuscating and stupid (China Virus) about it.  As individuals (or corporations), boycott whoever you want.
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Why would China or Wuhan virus be obfuscating?  I would think not calling it those names would actually be a tactic to obfuscate the origin.  Either way, not sure why stupid either, it a naming convention used throughout history.

 
Rich Conway said:
I don't think criticizing certain people for repeatedly using the terms China Virus and Kung Flu is remotely the same as "shouting down criticism of the Chinese government".  Be critical of any government you want, in my book.  Don't be racist (Kung Flu) or obfuscating and stupid (China Virus) about it.  As individuals (or corporations), boycott whoever you want.
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Do you think "China virus" led to violence against Asian-Americans?

Do you think "Israel is killing Palestinian children" leads to violence against Jewish Americans?

My answer to both of these questions is "No, not to any meaningful degree."  I'm a lot more interested in people who talk themselves into answering "yes" to the first question but "no" to the second.  That seems dishonest.

 
IvanKaramazov said:
Do you think "China virus" led to violence against Asian-Americans?

Do you think "Israel is killing Palestinian children" leads to violence against Jewish Americans?

My answer to both of these questions is "No, not to any meaningful degree."  I'm a lot more interested in people who talk themselves into answering "yes" to the first question but "no" to the second.  That seems dishonest.
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Yes, I agree with you on this.

 
djmich said:
Why would China or Wuhan virus be obfuscating?  I would think not calling it those names would actually be a tactic to obfuscate the origin.  Either way, not sure why stupid either, it a naming convention used throughout history.
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I think Trump and his adherents were specifically trying to deflect coverage and criticism (obfuscating) from his poor handling of the crisis.

 
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Maurile Tremblay said:
It's not difficult to come up with an answer. A blatantly wrong answer, it appears, if the answer is that Ben and Jerry are anti-Semites.
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Well, like I said earlier, it's very possible that Ben and Jerry and typical tribal people who are just picking up any argument they think will be helpful for the next 30 seconds without pausing to think about how it connects to arguments that they've made in the past or will want to make in the future.  That's probably a better explanation than "they're anti-Semitic."

Having said that, the combination of these two beliefs:

1) Criticism of a foreign government incites violence against Americans who share a common ancestry with that government, and

2) Israel is really bad and we should criticize it.

is absolutely anti-Semitic.  (2) is a completely a-okay viewpoint that I just happen to disagree with, but it's not at all anti-Semitic.  It becomes anti-Semitic if you also believe that your criticism does actually incite violence and you do it anyway.

 
fatguyinalittlecoat said:
I think there's a big part of the equation that you are leaving out.  American Jews make up many of the most prominent voices criticizing Israel for the treatment of Palestinians.  The J Street PAC is a prominent lobbying organization that is primarily run by and funded by American Jews that tries to change Israeli policy towards Palestinians.  I personally am an American Jew that is highly critical of Israel. I have engaged in multiple group discussions at my (very liberal) synagogue in which the majority of people are highly critical of Israel.  It strikes me as absurd to think any of this is motivated by antisemitism.
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Self-loathing at its finest.

 
Maurile Tremblay said:
It's not difficult to come up with an answer. A blatantly wrong answer, it appears, if the answer is that Ben and Jerry are anti-Semites.
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https://twitter.com/ClaireRedacted/status/1418578076783439881

"Sanctions are collective punishment that kill people indiscriminately.  Also, we should impose sanctions on the Jewish country."  Again, this is definitely, without question, an anti-Semitic position.  By her own standards, she's arguing in favor of collective punishment for Israelis, which she says she opposes for other people.  

Now, it's quite possible that this person doesn't have enough self-awareness to recognize the anti-Semitism here, so I guess you could make an argument that maybe ignorance is kind of an excuse or something.  But her position is anti-Semitic whether she's aware of it or not.

Edit: I have no problem with people who support BDS if they're cool with sanctions against other countries too.  It only becomes anti-Semitic when they make a special exception for the Jewish country.

 
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IvanKaramazov said:
https://twitter.com/ClaireRedacted/status/1418578076783439881

"Sanctions are collective punishment that kill people indiscriminately.  Also, we should impose sanctions on the Jewish country."  Again, this is definitely, without question, an anti-Semitic position.  By her own standards, she's arguing in favor of collective punishment for Israelis, which she says she opposes for other people.  

Now, it's quite possible that this person doesn't have enough self-awareness to recognize the anti-Semitism here, so I guess you could make an argument that maybe ignorance is kind of an excuse or something.  But her position is anti-Semitic whether she's aware of it or not.
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I am not sure how you can equate this with economic sanctions. I'd be shocked to find out that Ben and Jerry's no longer selling ice cream in the West Bank and East Jerusalem causes any deaths.

 
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tymarsas said:
I am not sure how you can equate this with economic sanctions. I'd be shocked to find out that Ben and Jerry's no longer selling ice cream in the West Bank and East Jerusalem causes any deaths.
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She supports the BDS movement.  Not just an ice cream boycott.

 
IvanKaramazov said:
She supports the BDS movement.  Not just an ice cream boycott.
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Fair enough. I was looking at it with a more narrow lens.

For the record, I think her comment about sanctions is a pretty naive. Sanctions almost certainly do cause a lot of death. Genocide also causes a lot of death. Turning your country into an economic wasteland also causes a lot of death. Using sanctions against a genocidal or tyrannical government is probably preferable than continuing to prop them up by trading with them (in which case most of the money will never make it to the citizens anyway).

 
IvanKaramazov said:
https://twitter.com/ClaireRedacted/status/1418578076783439881

"Sanctions are collective punishment that kill people indiscriminately.  Also, we should impose sanctions on the Jewish country."  Again, this is definitely, without question, an anti-Semitic position.  By her own standards, she's arguing in favor of collective punishment for Israelis, which she says she opposes for other people.  

Now, it's quite possible that this person doesn't have enough self-awareness to recognize the anti-Semitism here, so I guess you could make an argument that maybe ignorance is kind of an excuse or something.  But her position is anti-Semitic whether she's aware of it or not.

Edit: I have no problem with people who support BDS if they're cool with sanctions against other countries too.  It only becomes anti-Semitic when they make a special exception for the Jewish country.
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Maybe they think short term suffering for the people living in Israel (a large percentage of which are not Jewish) will lead to long term relief from suffering for the Palestinians.  The purpose of boycotts is to change government policies.  You can probably make a good argument that they aren’t effective but you can’t deny the whole reason why we impose them in the first place.

 
fatguyinalittlecoat said:
Maybe they think short term suffering for the people living in Israel (a large percentage of which are not Jewish) will lead to long term relief from suffering for the Palestinians.  The purpose of boycotts is to change government policies.  You can probably make a good argument that they aren’t effective but you can’t deny the whole reason why we impose them in the first place.
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Maybe.  Or maybe she's just anti-Semitic.  If she thinks that boycotts are okay as a way to change government policies, then probably she's okay with boycotts against, say, Venezuela.  But she actually opposes sanctions against Venezuela, so that can't be it.

I wonder if there's some other explanation for why this person opposes sanctions for everybody except Israel.  It's almost like there's something unique about that country in her mind.  I guess we'll never know what it is.

 
IvanKaramazov said:
Maybe.  Or maybe she's just anti-Semitic.  If she thinks that boycotts are okay as a way to change government policies, then probably she's okay with boycotts against, say, Venezuela.  But she actually opposes sanctions against Venezuela, so that can't be it.

I wonder if there's some other explanation for why this person opposes sanctions for everybody except Israel.  It's almost like there's something unique about that country in her mind.  I guess we'll never know what it is.
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It’s a democracy?  (sorta)

 
IvanKaramazov said:
How many excuses are you going to trot out before we arrive at the obvious explanation?  
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In many instances I believe you are wrong about the “obvious” explanation.  I am not providing excuses I’m providing alternative explanations for why someone might support a boycott of Israel but not Venezuela.

 
Why are we conflating discontinuing selling ice cream with international sanctions?   

I can see how a person that can differentiate between the two can say, "sanctions are harmful" and "Ben and Jerry's values are inconsistent with selling ice cream in the occupied territories" in the same breath, and also manage to not be anti-Semitic.  

 
Yair Rosenberg

@Yair_Rosenberg

·

Selling ice cream in Israel but not West Bank settlements is entirely understandable given @benandjerrys' values and political orientation. They've long supported Israel—not the occupation. Distinguishing between the two is anathema to both the Israeli right and BDS, not to them.
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Huh.   Guess the senior writer for Tablet is an anti-Semite too.   

 
the rover said:
Why are we conflating discontinuing selling ice cream with international sanctions?   
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Because the chair of the board at Ben & Jerrys opposes international sanctions but carves out a special exception for Israel.  She's not in favor of just not selling ice cream there -- she supports the BDS movement.

Now, maybe Anuradha Mittal is a Jew who considers Israel her second homeland, and she's just holding it to a higher standard than she holds other countries.  But barring some really good explanation along those lines, it's pretty safe to assume anti-Semitism as an underlying motive.  People who argue for treating certain groups of people worse than others are usually motivated by animus when they don't have any other good explanation for singling those groups out.  

 
IvanKaramazov said:
Because the chair of the board at Ben & Jerrys opposes international sanctions but carves out a special exception for Israel.  She's not in favor of just not selling ice cream there -- she supports the BDS movement.

Now, maybe Anuradha Mittal is a Jew who considers Israel her second homeland, and she's just holding it to a higher standard than she holds other countries.  But barring some really good explanation along those lines, it's pretty safe to assume anti-Semitism as an underlying motive.  People who argue for treating certain groups of people worse than others are usually motivated by animus when they don't have any other good explanation for singling those groups out.  
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What is your backward looking view on boycotts of Apartheid-era South Africa?

 
Alex P Keaton said:
What is your backward looking view on boycotts of Apartheid-era South Africa?
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Opposed.  I'm opposed to most economic sanctions except in really extreme war-like circumstances. 

For example, I supported the invasion of Iraq in part because I thought it was better policy than trying to maintain the sanctions regime that we had held in place since the early 90s.  And I support sanctions against North Korea only because they're a better alternative to invasion.  But when it comes to countries that we enjoy normal or semi-normal relations with -- countries that we're not essentially at war with -- like Venezuela, China, Israel, South Africa under aparteid, etc., no.

 
IvanKaramazov said:
Opposed.  I'm opposed to most economic sanctions except in really extreme war-like circumstances. 

For example, I supported the invasion of Iraq in part because I thought it was better policy than trying to maintain the sanctions regime that we had held in place since the early 90s.  And I support sanctions against North Korea only because they're a better alternative to invasion.  But when it comes to countries that we enjoy normal or semi-normal relations with -- countries that we're not essentially at war with -- like Venezuela, China, Israel, South Africa under aparteid, etc., no.
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Thanks.   Not surprised that you are being intellectually consistent.

What is your view of the policies and behavior of Apartheid-era South Africa’s government?

 
Alex P Keaton said:
What is your view of the policies and behavior of Apartheid-era South Africa’s government?
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Highly negative, obviously.  I should be up front though that I don't have a lot of first-hand memory of that regime.  It was a thing when I was in high school so I remember it somewhat, but it wasn't something I followed very closely at all.

 
IvanKaramazov said:
Highly negative, obviously.  I should be up front though that I don't have a lot of first-hand memory of that regime.  It was a thing when I was in high school so I remember it somewhat, but it wasn't something I followed very closely at all.
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In my experience talking with others, many people draw parallels between current Israel and 1980s South Africa.   Whether that is fair or not is up for debate.

 
djmich said:
Particularly when the response is “racism” and not something like “well you shouldn’t criticize China because their human rights record is flawless”.

It’s the same playbook being used over and over.  
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Has anyone, on this board, linked criticism of China's human rights record (or specifically, their treatment of the Uighurs) with racism and the rise of anti-Asian attacks?  I've been banned, so maybe I didn't see it.  But I think there's a very real difference between taking issue with calling Covid the Kung Flu or China Flu or Wuhan Flu and defending the Chinese government.  Just on the basis of facts.  There is no factual debate about what China is doing to the Uighurs.  There is considerable debate (to put it mildly) against the proposition that the facts show that China developed and weaponized Covid 19, which is what I see people criticizing as fueling the rise in attacks against Asian Americans.

Similarly, it seems pretty disingenuous to me for anyone who tends to champion capitalism to seem puzzled at the hypocrisy of even the "wokest" for-profit company not choosing to boycott the largest market in the world.  I mean, no ####.  

 
IvanKaramazov said:
Because the chair of the board at Ben & Jerrys opposes international sanctions but carves out a special exception for Israel.  She's not in favor of just not selling ice cream there -- she supports the BDS movement.

Now, maybe Anuradha Mittal is a Jew who considers Israel her second homeland, and she's just holding it to a higher standard than she holds other countries.  But barring some really good explanation along those lines, it's pretty safe to assume anti-Semitism as an underlying motive.  People who argue for treating certain groups of people worse than others are usually motivated by animus when they don't have any other good explanation for singling those groups out.  
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That's weird, because they continue to sell ice cream in Israel, just not the occupied territories.   That's not consistent with international sanctions or BDS.  

 
Alex P Keaton said:
In my experience talking with others, many people draw parallels between current Israel and 1980s South Africa.   Whether that is fair or not is up for debate.
Click to expand...
Fair?  I suppose if you live in a bubble which denies the existence of antisemitism that exists in the middle east to a level Israel has been under attack by forces which desire to wipe them out of existence.  The younger Arab generation is less antisemitic, but it is still a legitimate threat.  To compare what a nation does to protect their existence as a people to the British racist policies in place to protect their colony out of greed and white supremacy is to completely ignore the context of the situations.  

 
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