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Can We Civilly Discuss Thoughts On Vaccination? A Poll.


Where would you land among these descriptions?  

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On 9/24/2021 at 4:33 AM, Terminalxylem said:

In a word, no.

No healthcare provider willingly allows patients with treatable conditions to die, assuming they want treatment. 

 

 

Then let us continue to discuss how to effort the problem from a logistical standpoint.

I've said here in the FBG forums for the last 15 years, that any practical and functional solution needs a logistical pathway.

If you can't reduce the patient load, then let's look at increasing the manpower in place and changing the layout/structure in how the most severe cases of COVID19 are placed/housed.

You are saying everyone should get vaccinated. That's the ideal. But it's not going to happen. So let's unpack what we can do given the realities presented to both of us.

Let's start with the first issue

1) In terms of manpower, the organization in America best suited for complex large scale training and to expedite it and has the infrastructure in place to currently and practically support that is the US military.

So let's say several US military bases are used as training centers. Obviously you can't churn out a nurse or a doctor in 3 months. However, how fast could you train someone to handle the most common functions needed to handle a COVID19 patient? These people would be paid by the US government, thus would federal employees, who chose voluntarily to apply, thus would be under the vaccine mandate ( well the portion that would survive SCOTUS scrutiny) These people get a federal paycheck, gain some work experience and are offered some kind of future loan forgiveness if they pursue a degree related to joining the medical/health care industry. Then they are distributed on a need basis to hospitals around the country. They don't impact that hospitals own internal budget but it offers manpower and reinforcements.

A Presidential Executive Order ( pretend we had one right now with the cognitive reasoning to be able to do that) would bypass some of the issues of licensing/bureaucratic red tape.

If it sounds like I'm talking functional large scale triage, than that's exactly what it sounds like.

As a long standing health care professional, how fast could one practically train someone to handle the core work with COVID19 patients? I'm talking meat and bones.  Yes, I understand there are nuances you can't replace with practical work experience/tenure of a long standing health care professional who has been battle tested, done rotations, done internships, etc, etc, but tell me what would it take?

If you can't stop the flow of patients, then you can try to change the number of people fighting it on the front lines.

I'm open to hearing if you had no choice but to lay out a plan to increase the manpower, what would you do to make it functional and to expedite it.

I look forward to your response.

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7 hours ago, The General said:

Are hospitals over crowded now with Covid patients?

At this point, if they are, they're horribly mismanaged. Very few Covid cases are resulting in hospitalization - and that includes people being hospitalized for other things and learning they're positive.

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1 hour ago, NorvilleBarnes said:

At this point, if they are, they're horribly mismanaged. Very few Covid cases are resulting in hospitalization - and that includes people being hospitalized for other things and learning they're positive.

Wut?

You a hospital admin?

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3 hours ago, NorvilleBarnes said:

At this point, if they are, they're horribly mismanaged. Very few Covid cases are resulting in hospitalization - and that includes people being hospitalized for other things and learning they're positive.

This is completely wrong.  Do you think all these states and hospitals are lying about their ICU capacity?

Do you believe that Covid is a real thing?  Your post comes off like you're a denier.

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8 minutes ago, Chaz McNulty said:
4 hours ago, NorvilleBarnes said:

At this point, if they are, they're horribly mismanaged. Very few Covid cases are resulting in hospitalization - and that includes people being hospitalized for other things and learning they're positive.

This is completely wrong.  Do you think all these states and hospitals are lying about their ICU capacity?

Do you believe that Covid is a real thing?  Your post comes off like you're a denier.

No I don't think they're lying - and of course Covid is real.

Here's a question for you. What percentage of cases result in hospitalization?

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1 hour ago, NorvilleBarnes said:

Natural immunity is a myth LINK

Ugh. It's a shame that some people who are trying to communicate the importance of vaccination don't seem to realize you can't write a sentence like that, even if you try to explain what you mean in another 10 different tweets. The other side is just going to focus on that one sentence. 

You have to know the game being played and be more careful with your words.

Edited by jhib
Hit submit before finishing. So not being careful myself, I guess.
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9 minutes ago, jhib said:

Ugh. It's a shame that some people who are trying to communicate the importance of vaccination don't seem to realize you can't write a sentence like that, even if you try to explain what you mean in another 10 different tweets. The other side is just going to focus on that one sentence. 

You have to know the game being played and be more careful with your words.

That's one way to describe the dangers of fear mongering.

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7 hours ago, jhib said:

Ugh. It's a shame that some people who are trying to communicate the importance of vaccination don't seem to realize you can't write a sentence like that, even if you try to explain what you mean in another 10 different tweets. The other side is just going to focus on that one sentence. 

You have to know the game being played and be more careful with your words.

Yeah, if you read on, the guy raises a good point -- don't just rely on natural immunity, because your body may not have produced the immune response you're banking on.  Got it, good advice.  

But oof that first post in the thread is a doozy.  You just can't lead with something like that and expect people to take you seriously.  

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55 minutes ago, IvanKaramazov said:

Yeah, if you read on, the guy raises a good point -- don't just rely on natural immunity, because your body may not have produced the immune response you're banking on.  Got it, good advice.  


From what I've been able to gather ... immunity, at the individual level, is a wildly variable & chaotic thing. No one person can really look at what other people have experienced with COVID and say "Yep ... those people are a lot like me, so I can totally count on having a similar response."

It doesn't seem to work that way. And this variability confounds individual efforts to "follow the science" because unless you know a lot of minutiae about an individual's health and physiology ... you never really never know what you're dealing with in the case of your immune reaction to a COVID infection.

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9 hours ago, NorvilleBarnes said:

No I don't think they're lying - and of course Covid is real.

Here's a question for you. What percentage of cases result in hospitalization?

I am not sure.  Are you referring to the unvaccinated vs vaccinated rate of hospitalization?  Or just the total rate of hospitalization amongst people who contracted Covid?

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7 minutes ago, Chaz McNulty said:

I am not sure.  Are you referring to the unvaccinated vs vaccinated rate of hospitalization?  Or just the total rate of hospitalization amongst people who contracted Covid?

All of it, combined, even throw in those hospitalized for something else and discover they're positive. 

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36 minutes ago, Doug B said:


From what I've been able to gather ... immunity, at the individual level, is a wildly variable & chaotic thing. No one person can really look at what other people have experienced with COVID and say "Yep ... those people are a lot like me, so I can totally count on having a similar response."
 

This is makes a very good case for an individual consulting their own doctor and making their own decisions for themselves based on their own individual case.

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31 minutes ago, NorvilleBarnes said:

This is makes a very good case for an individual consulting their own doctor and making their own decisions for themselves based on their own individual case.

If people did this, we would have a 99% vaccination rate in this country

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40 minutes ago, NorvilleBarnes said:

This is makes a very good case for an individual consulting their own doctor and making their own decisions for themselves based on their own individual case.

The problem is:  most of the people being hospitalized did this and made the wrong choice.

Moreso, in most casses when they consult with their own doctor--the doctors are recommending people get it.  The cases where people are told not to get it are few and far between.  

 

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I’ve been to two music festivals the last two weekends. 
 

Vaccination card or negative Covid test required for entry.

Everything went smoothly. I much appreciate the staff working so hard.

Large crowds and great music!

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1 hour ago, dozer said:

I’ve been to two music festivals the last two weekends. 
 

Vaccination card or negative Covid test required for entry.

Everything went smoothly. I much appreciate the staff working so hard.

Large crowds and great music!

Awesome.  Can't wait until this becomes more widespread.

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6 hours ago, Doug B said:


From what I've been able to gather ... immunity, at the individual level, is a wildly variable & chaotic thing. No one person can really look at what other people have experienced with COVID and say "Yep ... those people are a lot like me, so I can totally count on having a similar response."

It doesn't seem to work that way. And this variability confounds individual efforts to "follow the science" because unless you know a lot of minutiae about an individual's health and physiology ... you never really never know what you're dealing with in the case of your immune reaction to a COVID infection.

This is why the idea natural immunity is more potent is probably off-base. A bunch of studies have shown a subset of people infected with SARS-CoV-2 don’t develop antibodies at all:

Quote

Initial serosurveys identified antibodies in nearly 100% of persons with RT-PCR–confirmed SARS-CoV-2 infection (5). However, more recent studies have shown that seroconversion rates are surprisingly variable (6–10). For example, a multicenter study from Israel reported that 5% of participants remained seronegative despite a positive test result on a nasal swab specimen (6). In contrast, a seroprevalence study from New York found that 20% of persons with a positive RT-PCR test result did not seroconvert (8). Another study from Germany reported that 85% of confirmed infected COVID-19 contacts failed to develop antibodies (9). 

This likely is influenced by the exposure, with greater viral burden/symptoms leading to more brisk antibody response. But there are many people who never develop symptoms, some of whom had such a low exposure they don’t need antibodies to control infection. On top of that, not all the antibodies are neutralizing, as natural immunity is effectively trial-and-error production of antibodies in response to different digested viral segments.

Vaccines, on the other hand, offer a consistent dose of the spike protein’s receptor binding domain. Assuming one’s antibody production isn’t dysfunctional, this all but guarantees high titers of neutralizing antibodies. And Moderna appears to outperform Pfizer because the dosing is a little higher.

Taking all that into consideration, it’s hard to reconcile the oft-referenced Israeli study. I wonder where they are in the peer-review process?

Edited by Terminalxylem
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2 hours ago, Chaz McNulty said:

I am not sure.  Are you referring to the unvaccinated vs vaccinated rate of hospitalization?  Or just the total rate of hospitalization amongst people who contracted Covid?

He’s looking at the low overall rate of hospitalization and suggesting covid is inconsequential, with a sprinkling of hospitalized with, but not from covid to regurgitate another worn-out talking point. But the beds don’t lie.

What he’s missing: a sh!t ton of infections can still lead to many hospitalizations, as the absolute number of sick people is large, even if the overall percentage is small. On top of that, covid patients use up more resources than average patients, and remain in the hospital longer.

The end result is hospitals get overwhelmed. This occurs regionally, as the concentration of infections isn’t uniform. But it’s happened repeatedly, and it’s happening now in some places - not because of mismanagement, but regional variations in disease prevalence and healthcare resources.

Hawaii is one of those places. Thankfully, infections are downtrending and hospital beds are finally opening up. This is following several weeks of 100%+ capacity and crisis mode requiring FEMA personnel, cancelling elective procedures and delivering cr@ppy healthcare, unfortunately.

 

 

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3 hours ago, NorvilleBarnes said:

This is makes a very good case for an individual consulting their own doctor and making their own decisions for themselves based on their own individual case.

... at fist glance, maybe, but not really. Mere consultation wouldn't be enough, I don't think. Unless you're at your doctor's all the time for various immune-system issues .... frankly, your doctor would be guessing blind. And there's no quick-and-dirty test that would tell the doctor all that much in a short time. Given time and a history of seeing a given doctor and lots of tests in your folder ... yeah, that's one thing. But all the "I'm healthy and never see a doctor" folks? Different story.

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