The Commish
Footballguy
It's likely that there was a greater number of cases AND deaths. People there aren't buying the deaths reported.
Fantasy Football - Footballguys Forums
Welcome to Our Forums. Once you've registered and logged in, you're primed to talk football, among other topics, with the sharpest and most experienced fantasy players on the internet.
Can We Civilly Discuss Thoughts On Vaccination? A Poll. (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Joe Bryant
- Start date
AAABatteries
Footballguy
Ivermectin is still being used by some doctors in India but it’s my understanding that the idea is to give it to someone early on and not in the hospital.
The Commish
Footballguy
This is correct...it's an antiviral. Once in the hospital, the viral part is generally gone and you're on to the inflammation problems that come with infection.
Terminalxylem
Footballguy
India’s numbers have always seemed way, way too low. It would be great if such a high % have already been infected.
The only country with fishier numbers is China.
supermike80
Footballguy
the rover
Footballguy
don't see anything off about Mexico's numbers. They're high, but they have a low vaccination rate.
The Z Machine
Footballguy
A good portion of those that tested positive for antibodies got them from a vaccine.Max Power said:
Max Power
Footballguy
I'm sure. What % of people get covid and don't develop antibodies? I think I went extremely low end on that estimate.
The Z Machine
Footballguy
Max Power
Footballguy
Max Power
Footballguy
That keeps my math ballpark for 1 billion cases in India.
Also an interesting (although small) study was released about the duration of detectable antibodies in the Pfizer vaccine after 6 months.
https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/got-pfizer-may-not-antibodies-103253108.html
The Z Machine
Footballguy
There are other studies like this one from Iceland that show less than 10% did not seroconvert after natural infection and this one from the UK showed 8.5% nonseroconversion. But we do know that this number does not stay consistent as time progresses post-infection. This study suggests that, "Especially in asymptomatic cases, antibody responses disappeared after 8 weeks in 40% of individuals in that study." (emphasis mine)
So it's difficult to estimate due to the noted effect above, but we can use ~20% that were infected and didn't have detectable antibodies (that doesn't mean that their memory B-cells wouldn't produce them upon reinfection, but that's a different topic).
As for the vaccinated, a much larger number seroconvert as noted by @The Football Freak, but that may too fade over time. However, that Rueters article said this, "The survey showed 67.6% of adults were seropositive, while more than 62% of adults were unvaccinated. As of July, just over 8% of eligible adult Indians had received two vaccine doses." We know that seroconversion happens after the first dose, so we can use 35% of the population having vaccine induced antibodies. Now there's also the crossover folks that were infected naturally AND received a vaccine dose. I'm not sure how to get at that number.
Even if 10% of that 35% didn't seroconvert, that's still 31%, so higher than the 20% as noted above. Therefore, these numbers likely don't wash each other out. But my larger point is that math of 2/3rds of 1.3 billion is way too simple, as is epidemic modeling. Both natural and vaccine induced responses (along with NPIs) contributed to the slowdown in Delta in India. It's rarely an either-or scenario.
So it's difficult to estimate due to the noted effect above, but we can use ~20% that were infected and didn't have detectable antibodies (that doesn't mean that their memory B-cells wouldn't produce them upon reinfection, but that's a different topic).
As for the vaccinated, a much larger number seroconvert as noted by @The Football Freak, but that may too fade over time. However, that Rueters article said this, "The survey showed 67.6% of adults were seropositive, while more than 62% of adults were unvaccinated. As of July, just over 8% of eligible adult Indians had received two vaccine doses." We know that seroconversion happens after the first dose, so we can use 35% of the population having vaccine induced antibodies. Now there's also the crossover folks that were infected naturally AND received a vaccine dose. I'm not sure how to get at that number.
Even if 10% of that 35% didn't seroconvert, that's still 31%, so higher than the 20% as noted above. Therefore, these numbers likely don't wash each other out. But my larger point is that math of 2/3rds of 1.3 billion is way too simple, as is epidemic modeling. Both natural and vaccine induced responses (along with NPIs) contributed to the slowdown in Delta in India. It's rarely an either-or scenario.
Last edited by a moderator:
NYC was practically a ghost town from mid March 2020 - end of April 2020. You basically left your house for supplies only, all restaurants and entertainment venues were closed. You didnt visit family. Ill never forget those 6 weeks so dont tell me nothing like that ever happened here. Maybe it didnt happen everywhere but it definitely happened here.
The Commish
Footballguy
One of my best friends lives in southern China. His stories were unreal. NOTHING close to what they experienced happened here. They weren't allowed to leave their homes for two months...no exceptions outside of looming death. Supplies/food etc were brought to your door. After that two months, things slowly started to open. The next step was being allowed to go to a location in your neighborhood to pick up your goods/food (think apartment complex with a club house sorta). The next step after that was one person from the family being allowed outside the "neighborhood" once a week etc etc. It took about 5 months before the entire family was able to do anything at all outside, together.
Last edited by a moderator:
The Z Machine
Footballguy
Yes, NYC was the closest the US has come to a true lockdown. I think the only caveat was that interstate travel was never restricted. In other countries, many lockdowns mean that police are patrolling the streets and checking papers to make sure the people are still in their residential neighborhoods. And while that may sound harsh or extreme (and I agree it is), the here in the US, the state (sometimes the musicality) has public health police powers to do just that.
Last edited by a moderator:
GroveDiesel
Footballguy
It wasn’t nearly to the same extent, but non-essential work travel was absolutely restricted in the US by many states for a while.
-fish-
Footballguy
Philadelphia was giving out $500 tickets if people were out of their house and not engaged in an essential activity. My nephew got a ticket for driving alone in his car.
supermike80
Footballguy
We couldn't buy vegetable seeds in Michigan. If you needed groceries, ok. But the seeds were roped off. Same with patio furniture. Everything in michigan was closed except food and big box stores.
LawFitz
Footballguy
LawFitz
Footballguy
LawFitz
Footballguy
LawFitz
Footballguy
Except for the delta virus the vaccine does not significantly reduce the levels of the virus and the ability to spread it to others.
Rich Conway
Footballguy
Wait, you still believe that debunked meme?
This is exactly part of the problem. Some jackass posts a meme like PhDs aren't getting vaxxed, and they're smart! Those seeking confirmation for their vax-denial views glom onto it like a life raft, never bothering to check later that it was made up and/or not remotely credible. Rinse and repeat.
Last edited by a moderator:
The Commish
Footballguy
It's not just that. It's also things like a 40% reduction in viral load not being a "significant reduction". When people are presented data they can't refute the lines they draw are really weird. Lots of people staying at Holiday Inn Express these days.
Last edited by a moderator:
Terminalxylem
Footballguy
Absolutely. Not only were the "PhDs" bogus, but the whole concept is silly, when you consider vaccination rates among doctors who actually treat covid patients.
From autism to long-term safety "concerns", I'm not sure why vaccines are so vulnerable to misinformation.
The Commish
Footballguy
Sparky Big Time
Footballguy
Concerns and objections to vaccination is a relatively new concept that appears to have arisen with the wide use of the internet back in the late 90's.
For nearly two decades and anti-vax movement was a rather small, albeit dedicated, group of folks who stood by their beliefs.
I did not agree with them, but I also do not govern other people. I was rationally concerned about what it might mean for measles and such to be present where my kids were attending school for example.
Still, I and my family were vaccinated and reasonably protected. So let them handle their situation as they see fit of course.
If people want to risk their lives for their beliefs so be it. I am vaccinated and thus protected. If the vaccination did not work then why push it so emphatically? Therefore it must be a suitable protection, regardless of the choices of others.
For nearly two decades and anti-vax movement was a rather small, albeit dedicated, group of folks who stood by their beliefs.
I did not agree with them, but I also do not govern other people. I was rationally concerned about what it might mean for measles and such to be present where my kids were attending school for example.
Still, I and my family were vaccinated and reasonably protected. So let them handle their situation as they see fit of course.
If people want to risk their lives for their beliefs so be it. I am vaccinated and thus protected. If the vaccination did not work then why push it so emphatically? Therefore it must be a suitable protection, regardless of the choices of others.
Terminalxylem
Footballguy
But it doesn’t work forever for everyone, and the decisions made by opting out needlessly impact the healthcare system, and the communities it serves.
Terminalxylem
Footballguy
Certainly a huge influence, but vaccines seem to garner a disproportionate amount of attention from pseudoscientists. I can’t think of another medical intervention with soooo much unearned negative press. And for something that arguably has saved more lives than just about anything, except maybe water sanitation standards.
The Commish
Footballguy
If we sit back and observe we realize this attention is driven by one of two things....it always boils down to "politics" or "time". The politics part, we have a shot (albeit slim) to correct that. The time thing is going to be sticking point for many moving forward. The government sold their inefficiencies as "safety" and a TON of people lapped it up and now associate the time/speed with quality/safety. That's going to take a generation or two to fix.
supermike80
Footballguy
This is an interesting thought and well articulated. I read this and the flat earthers immediately came to mind. Heck growing up i never heard of this idea. The internet has given it an absurd amount of traction.
Rich Conway
Footballguy
Seems a bit harsh, but suspension without pay for remainder of season seems reasonable.
Max Power
Footballguy
We need some consistancy here. Anyone else caught doing this would lose their job. He needs to be fired if we're going to be fair about it.
The Commish
Footballguy
Does seem harsh, but if that's the rule he made the decision and should be held accountable
It's quite amazing that people would actively choose to screw with their careers like this.
Last edited by a moderator:
Rich Conway
Footballguy
1. The bolded is entirely possible, but not guaranteed. Some employers might say "get vaccinated now or you're fired". Some employers might base the decision on how great the employee is/isn't.
2. Why are you so insistent on "consistency"? Why can't each employer be left to decide?
Rich Conway
Footballguy
The part of the article Max quoted seemed to say there isn't a specific rule for this. I don't actually know. If the rule is lifetime ban, then sure, rules are rules and actions have consequences.Does seem harsh, but if that's the rule he made the decision and should be held accountable
It's quite amazing that people would actively choose to screw with their careers like this.
The Commish
Footballguy
Yeah, I don't pay much attention to the NHL. There's not much I could care less about honestly. His "consistency" comment makes it seem as if the NHL has had to deal with this already, so whatever they did in that case, they need to do in this one. I'd agree with that. I have no idea who that guy is though. Is he a star in the NHL and being treated different?
Max Power
Footballguy
Probably the military in me.
I mean this is either a pandemic that has costs millions of lives and should be taken very seriously or we're just saying that when it benefits the narrative.
The man put the lives of all his teammates at risk right? I don't see how any organization finds that acceptable.
Max Power
Footballguy
It doesn't sound like the NHL ever considered this. No specific rule that I know of. Apparently the federal punishment is up to 5 years.
Rich Conway
Footballguy
It's absolutely a pandemic that has cost millions of lives and should be taken seriously. That's not really up for debate.
That said, I don't know that every company needs to put the exact same policies into place. Restaurants, hospitals, call centers where the employees work from home, and pro sports leagues probably should all have different policies. Different pro sports leagues may even want different policies. I can see that golf's policies might be different than basketball, based on the differences in interactions between participants, participants and staff, etc.
In this particular case, there's also the legalities of a long-term contract versus at-will employment, CBA versus at-will employment, etc. to consider. I won't pretend to be able to weigh in on any of those.
Rich Conway
Footballguy
I pay virtually no attention to the NHL. I have no idea if this guy is any good, if the team is a contender, etc.
The Commish
Footballguy
Yeah, if someone else is being treated differently, I'd agree on the consistency argument he's raising.
Max Power
Footballguy
We literally have a thread here if we should fire people for not taking the vaccine and it is getting more yes than no replies. This guy not only refused, but falsified documents and lied to his employers and co-workers. Seems pretty clear he needs to be terminated. I know I would be from federal governement if I did what he did.
If we're going take it seriously, take it seriously. This one foot in, one foot out is what gives people pause. Either people really believe the unvaccinated are endangering other people's lives or they don't. This type of response leads me to believe its just going along with a narrative.
Rich Conway
Footballguy
Whoa, you're putting words in my mouth. If I were the owner, and no contractual or CBA terms prevented me from doing so, I'd fire him immediately. That's not the same thing as what I wrote above, though. If I owned a company where some employees worked from home, I might not fire those employees for refusing to get vaccinated (I might, though, on the basis that individuals too selfish/stupid to get vaccinated are also too selfish/stupid to work for me).
You have what I consider an unhealthy obsession that everyone "on a side" has to be in lockstep about everything and that one policy absolutely must fit all cases. The bolded above is a good example. I believe unvaxxed folks are endangering others. That doesn't mean the owner of said NHL team believes it or believes it to the same extent that I do.
Max Power
Footballguy
We're pushing massive mandates on that line of thinking, I think we should at least be consistant. That was my whole issue with the consistency comment.
If I'm being forced to do something I don't want to to keep my job in the name of public health, I should be able to ask that we at least pretend to take this "public health crisis" seriously.
Similar threads
