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Guns, Murder, Race & Income (1 Viewer)

djmich

djmich

Footballguy
How can you not click on that thread title.  Apologies for the novel, thanks in advance for reading!

Came across one datapoint on murder by income/race that made me think and then googled another on US vs the world.

Here's my threading:

There's lots of talk about how guns in the US are out of control and associated rates of murder...often with other 1st world countries as benchmarks.  Seems like something worth discussing.   US Murder vs World & Race Breakdown.  Some eye opening take-aways. 

  • Murder rate in the US is higher than international, around 4-5x on average.  Pretty big.
  • The white murder rate is about 2.5x.  This, relative to how big we talk about the insane amount of guns in the US and how they drive our insane murder stats as an issue, is a smaller gap than I would have expected relative to the perceived enormity of the issue.
  • The black murder rate is about 19x the International average and 15x bigger than white.  I don't think its a revelation there is a gap, these boards are filled with discussion on how places like Chicago are out of control.  But the size of the gap is staggering.
There's lots of talk on these boards about struggles in our black communities and how to remedy.  There is no one size fits all, there are many causes and many potential paths to remediation.  Much of the discussion is around "class" and the fact that many of the issues are class related.  For example, education.  If you don't have income and live in a poor neighborhood you're more likely to be relegated to a poor education and more likely to commit crime.  Lots of things tied to income.  We all know being poor does not require someone to commit crime and there is personal agency...but I think everyone would agree that generally as income rises criminality should decline.  Data Point #2

  • In aggregate this data is largely consistent with the prior data set, which is that overall black murder rates are many times higher than white rates.  I'd expect that overall black murder rates to be higher due to a higher proportion of individuals at the lower income levels. 
  • What is surprising is that the murder rates are consistently much much higher regardless of income.  At the lower income levels black murder rate is 4-8x higher than white.  Black murder rate at the highest income bracket is still 2x higher than white murder rate at the lowest income bracket.  Asians are handily lower than everyone.
What does all this mean.  I would caution anyone from extrapolating too far or too much with a few datapoints, humanity is the some total of a crazy amount of inputs and these are just a few.  For me, it is hard not to observe data like this and think that "culture" plays a huge role.  But we're really not allowed to discuss it, its taboo or racist.  So we focus all of our efforts on remedies that are $ related.  Income needs to be higher, education higher, more jobs.  That is part of the answer but I think it is in aggregate the smaller element of the issue now (data point #2 illustrates that its not all income)

What is culture, I don't know exactly, its somewhat ambiguous, but at its highest level I'd say its the accepted norms and expectations established within groups.  Established by the members within the groups and frankly established and influenced by people outside those groups.  I'll take an easy one, the expectation within Asian households that children are studying 20hrs per week....feels like that this influences aggregate Asian culture...and aggregate Asian outcomes.  Its also cultural expectations around pregnancy and marriage.

If culture is part of the issue...how do we improve it?  What role do white people play in black culture today?  Is the narrative that has accelerated today around all things "systemic racism" and the perception of black rights being perpetually assaulted...helping black people?  Is the vision of a incredibly daunting path to being "equal", even if you have the degrees and do the work...helping black people?  Is that supportive of a positive black culture, is that the best way to frame things up?

 
Thunderlips said:
 What % of the black murder rate is drug (distributor) related?   
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I doubt that datapoint exists, but would invite you to find it or share your thinking on what it might tell us.  I have some ideas, but figured would be good for you to share first.

 
djmich said:
I doubt that datapoint exists, but would invite you to find it or share your thinking on what it might tell us.  I have some ideas, but figured would be good for you to share first.
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I don't know what it is....although I'd imagine most of the shootings that occur in heavily urbanized areas with a large black population are drug related; primarily two, three or even more factions fighting one another for market share.  It would be interesting to see murder numbers with that concept taken out. I'd wonder if they'd be closer to the Latino number in the article? 

Historically, crime has been the endeavors of the bottom rung ethnic group; primarily as a result of being new to this country and having more limited options.   Although African-Americans have been in this country for hundreds of years; I think we can all agree that MOST real types of opportunistic mobility for them only started to come out Post WWII.

That being said, I'd imagine that as mobility for AA increases (and they are in a bit of a tougher spot as there's no frontier for them to fold into(which helped Irish, German, Scandavians), nor is there a giant societal changing war (which helped Jewish, Italian) to upjump them very quickly(people forget about how much WWII changed this country...it's almost like it was a complete outlier of the standard American societal progression.....you might actually be seeing a  return to the "normal" pre-WWII timeline rearing its head now), you'll see their murder rate go down and the murder rates of ...I don't know; Eastern Europeans, East Africans, maybe deep Central Americans go up as they immigrant here and take control of crime.

 
Thunderlips said:
I don't know what it is....although I'd imagine most of the shootings that occur in heavily urbanized areas with a large black population are drug related; primarily two, three or even more factions fighting one another for market share.  It would be interesting to see murder numbers with that concept taken out. I'd wonder if they'd be closer to the Latino number in the article? 

Historically, crime has been the endeavors of the bottom rung ethnic group; primarily as a result of being new to this country and having more limited options.   Although African-Americans have been in this country for hundreds of years; I think we can all agree that MOST real types of opportunistic mobility for them only started to come out Post WWII.

That being said, I'd imagine that as mobility for AA increases (and they are in a bit of a tougher spot as there's no frontier for them to fold into(which helped Irish, German, Scandavians), nor is there a giant societal changing war (which helped Jewish, Italian) to upjump them very quickly(people forget about how much WWII changed this country...it's almost like it was a complete outlier of the standard American societal progression.....you might actually be seeing a  return to the "normal" pre-WWII timeline rearing its head now), you'll see their murder rate go down and the murder rates of ...I don't know; Eastern Europeans, East Africans, maybe deep Central Americans go up as they immigrant here and take control of crime.
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I think with regard to drugs there are two considerations

  1. We unnecessarily have created criminals out of the drug business.  I think we are making some corrections on this front in terms of legalization of MJ but there is more to do here.  It has been discussed on these boards that less incarceration related to drug activity would be good.  There are downsides, but less people in prison for things that don't really need to be in prison, like possession, is good.  More black men at home and not in jail I think would benefit "culture".
  2. I'm not sure there is a pathway to meaningful reduction in the murder rate based on doing something like, de-criminalizing possession.  Or making MJ legal inclusive of distribution.  There are a lot of other drugs, like heroin, that I don't see fitting in the same category.  I don't think thats what you were saying...I do generally agree with you that groups tend to find homes in and specialized in certain criminal activities. 
 
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Thunderlips said:
That being said, I'd imagine that as mobility for AA increases ...., you'll see their murder rate go down and the murder rates of ...I don't know; Eastern Europeans, East Africans, maybe deep Central Americans go up as they immigrant here and take control of crime.
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This is part of the story of the data.  You are correct, the overall murder rate will go down, which is very good.  What the data indicates though is that even amongst the upwardly income mobile black population...murder rates are even more disproportionally higher than whites or asian.

So, in this case an average black person would be less likely to murder as their income rises....but murder at a disproportionally higher rate vs white/asian as income rises.  There are other factors that seem to influence the murder rate besides income mobility. 

 
djmich said:
I think with regard to drugs there are two considerations

  1. We unnecessarily have created criminals out of the drug business.  I think we are making some corrections on this front in terms of legalization of MJ but there is more to do here.  It has been discussed on these boards that less incarceration related to drug activity would be good.  There are downsides, but less people in prison for things that don't really need to be in prison, like possession, is good.  May black men at home and not in jail I think would benefit "culture".
  2. I'm not sure there is a pathway to meaningful reduction in the murder rate based on doing something like, de-criminalizing possession.  Or making MJ legal inclusive of distribution.  There are a lot of other drugs, like heroin, that I don't see fitting in the same category.  I don't think thats what you were saying...I do generally agree with you that groups tend to find homes in and specialized in certain criminal activities. 
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2 is a tough one to rectify as I think there is a hard line that Americans don't want to cross in regards to legalizing drugs.   To that, I don't know......does society accept a more draconian crack on both distributor/user in regards to these drugs? I don't know if that will help.  I guess the idea of American society saying "We'll let you slide on MJ......but anything else we're getting tougher" MIGHT work.....but I don't think so.  Maybe push the narrative to  the distributor that society doesn't care if you kill one another in your quest.....but if one bullet goes thru a barbershop window and kills a citizen; everything is getting shut down and asses are getting cracked until we can perp walk and prosecute the shooter.  

 
I found a couple of links as I looked for stats to do with gang #s.   

Here is one, but is almost 10 years old.  

The total number of gang homicides reported by respondents in the NYGS sample averaged nearly 2,000 annually from 2007 to 2012. During roughly the same time period (2007 to 2011), the FBI estimated, on average, more than 15,500 homicides across the United States (www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2011/crime-in-the-u.s.-2011/tables/table-1). These estimates suggest that gang-related homicides typically accounted for around 13 percent of all homicides annually.

Of course that is out of all the U.S., not just dividing by the black murder #s.   I looked quick and saw black murder #s between 5K and 7.5K annually, but want to check that again.  So that would be 27-40% of the murder rate related to gangs?   I guess we could to similar for drug related as I don't think 100% gang = drug murder.  

 
djmich said:
This is part of the story of the data.  You are correct, the overall murder rate will go down, which is very good.  What the data indicates though is that even amongst the upwardly income mobile black population...murder rates are even more disproportionally higher than whites or asian.

So, in this case an average black person would be less likely to murder as their income rises....but murder at a disproportionally higher rate vs white/asian as income rises.  There are other factors that seem to influence the murder rate besides income mobility. 
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No doubt.  But some of that probably ties into the (my?) theory of AA' s being the most recent immigrant group. I'd imagine most quality of life numbers weren't favorable to immigrant groups.  

 
djmich said:
This is part of the story of the data.  You are correct, the overall murder rate will go down, which is very good.  What the data indicates though is that even amongst the upwardly income mobile black population...murder rates are even more disproportionally higher than whites or asian.

So, in this case an average black person would be less likely to murder as their income rises....but murder at a disproportionally higher rate vs white/asian as income rises.  There are other factors that seem to influence the murder rate besides income mobility. 
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My follow up question to this was - what is the population density for the different races?  We have talked about historic difficulties for black Americans to move away from their communities for a variety of reasons.   So what popped into my head is that is there differences in the races/cultures as far as climbing the income ladder = moving to a better neighborhood?   Not sure if I phrased that correctly... 

 
KarmaPolice said:
So that would be 27-40% of the murder rate related to gangs?   I guess we could to similar for drug related as I don't think 100% gang = drug murder.  
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I wouldn't be surprised at all if the number was this magnitude.

Somewhat of a tangent, but when you look at all this data, it does also reinforce the idea that...how much of gun problem do we really have?  Or maybe better said, its not really random people who get pissed about the Saints getting jobbed on a playoff call, going into their basement to grab their legally acquired handgun, and then popping off on the guy mowing his lawn across the street.  Although knowing some Saints fans, I wouldn't be surprised.

It's criminals, probably using guns illegally obtained.

 
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KarmaPolice said:
My follow up question to this was - what is the population density for the different races?  We have talked about historic difficulties for black Americans to move away from their communities for a variety of reasons.   So what popped into my head is that is there differences in the races/cultures as far as climbing the income ladder = moving to a better neighborhood?   Not sure if I phrased that correctly... 
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I think a good point and part of the equation!  Related, what is the population density for Asians and how does that impact their results.

 
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clearly if you're black and poor you have no choice but to commit crimes and murder ?

murder/race/income/geography/family structure ... it all plays a part in violence. adding "guns" isn't really part of any of that though because criminals can use any weapons they want to, and they will

this has been discussed in the gun threads - but there are 3 motivators in killing - All murders (kill) are motivated by financial greed (steal), sexual lust (rape) or the pursuit of power (control). Sometimes only one of these motives is the driving force behind a crime. Sometimes two or more are involved.

the above is a long held idea ... and it does actually cover about everything. the USA is a violent nation, there are many theories as to why that is. To me, its all about choices. People choose their paths. You can have rich kids like the Menendez brothers killing. They chose their path. Poor people choose their paths too. Black people and white people and all colors choose. 

why does a person choose to kill ?

when you answer that question - the income levels, gender, race, social status, weapons used ... all of that is pushed aside and you get the real core reasons. 

 
djmich said:
I think a good point and part of the equation!  Related, what is the population density for Asians and how does that impact their results.
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Good question, then we need to look at what types of areas, communities those densities would be in.  

 
djmich said:
How can you not click on that thread title.  Apologies for the novel, thanks in advance for reading!

Came across one datapoint on murder by income/race that made me think and then googled another on US vs the world.

Here's my threading:

There's lots of talk about how guns in the US are out of control and associated rates of murder...often with other 1st world countries as benchmarks.  Seems like something worth discussing.   US Murder vs World & Race Breakdown.  Some eye opening take-aways. 

  • Murder rate in the US is higher than international, around 4-5x on average.  Pretty big.
  • The white murder rate is about 2.5x.  This, relative to how big we talk about the insane amount of guns in the US and how they drive our insane murder stats as an issue, is a smaller gap than I would have expected relative to the perceived enormity of the issue.
  • The black murder rate is about 19x the International average and 15x bigger than white.  I don't think its a revelation there is a gap, these boards are filled with discussion on how places like Chicago are out of control.  But the size of the gap is staggering.
There's lots of talk on these boards about struggles in our black communities and how to remedy.  There is no one size fits all, there are many causes and many potential paths to remediation.  Much of the discussion is around "class" and the fact that many of the issues are class related.  For example, education.  If you don't have income and live in a poor neighborhood you're more likely to be relegated to a poor education and more likely to commit crime.  Lots of things tied to income.  We all know being poor does not require someone to commit crime and there is personal agency...but I think everyone would agree that generally as income rises criminality should decline.  Data Point #2

  • In aggregate this data is largely consistent with the prior data set, which is that overall black murder rates are many times higher than white rates.  I'd expect that overall black murder rates to be higher due to a higher proportion of individuals at the lower income levels. 
  • What is surprising is that the murder rates are consistently much much higher regardless of income.  At the lower income levels black murder rate is 4-8x higher than white. 

    Black

    murder rate at the highest income bracket is still 2x higher than white murder rate at the lowest income bracket.  Asians are handily lower than everyone.
What does all this mean.  I would caution anyone from extrapolating too far or too much with a few datapoints, humanity is the some total of a crazy amount of inputs and these are just a few.  For me, it is hard not to observe data like this and think that "culture" plays a huge role.  But we're really not allowed to discuss it, its taboo or racist.  So we focus all of our efforts on remedies that are $ related.  Income needs to be higher, education higher, more jobs.  That is part of the answer but I think it is in aggregate the smaller element of the issue now (data point #2 illustrates that its not all income)

What is culture, I don't know exactly, its somewhat ambiguous, but at its highest level I'd say its the accepted norms and expectations established within groups.  Established by the members within the groups and frankly established and influenced by people outside those groups.  I'll take an easy one, the expectation within Asian households that children are studying 20hrs per week....feels like that this influences aggregate Asian culture...and aggregate Asian outcomes.  Its also cultural expectations around pregnancy and marriage.

If culture is part of the issue...how do we improve it?  What role do white people play in black culture today?  Is the narrative that has accelerated today around all things "systemic racism" and the perception of black rights being perpetually assaulted...helping black people?  Is the vision of a incredibly daunting path to being "equal", even if you have the degrees and do the work...helping black people?  Is that supportive of a positive black culture, is that the best way to frame things up?
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For me - and this is not even debatable - it's the single motherhood rate in the black community.  That is THE #1 issue in the black community and the cause of the massive gaps in murder and other crimes.  It's at 70+% - that's absolutely horrific.

We have women teaching young men how to be men and that just won't work - for any race.  I don't know how we do this, but we need to put back shame in single motherhood instead of glorifying it - just as we shame the men TODAY for abandoning those same families and being dogs.

Fix the single motherhood rate and you'll fix 90% of the problems - not just in the black community, but all communities.

 
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Thanks for the post @djmich.  One of the better topics I’ve seen in here in quite some time, and well sourced.  Somewhere in the last 40 years the topic of “culture” became off-limits.  The result is that the field of sociology, which was all the rage in the 70’s and 80’s, has been decimated.  One of the best reports ever produced on the plight of blacks in America was the Moynihan Report of 1965.  If that report were released today it would be panned as racist.  Liberals don’t like to discuss culture.  For some reason they think that Government is incapable of providing remedies to some of those issues.  They’d rather throw money at the problems even though history has pretty clearly shown us that this hasn’t worked.  But try to improve black nuclear families and behaviors?  Off-limits.  See my thread about rap music and the vile lyrics being pumped into black kids every day.  People in here laugh at that stuff.

 
As far as culture goes, like I posted in the gun thread I was reading a book about a sociology student going into the projects of Chicago a few blocks from his school and documenting his interactions.   That got me thinking a lot about what some of these neighborhoods and situations might look like.   Not hard to imagine if I was born into that situation and drugs are all around the neighborhood and buildings, main choices for $ are getting on a bus or driving a distance for low paying job or hustling, etc..  different paths would be taken.    Eye opening book to say the least.  

Not sure how to fix that to tell you the truth, but I think a big thing is to have options and examples.   Every community needs businesses, jobs, a variety of successful people.  One thing I have noticed in other discussions like this is the goal seems to be - get educated, get a job, get the f out of town.  That is great for the % that does that, but at the same time it does nothing to improve the old area or give leaders there.   

When you look at the hugely disproportionate #s the War on Drugs inflicted on the black community, IMO that should be one of the first things that should be addressed.  Not sure what that does for the above paragraph, so I am probably just rambling now.  LOL.  

 
KarmaPolice said:
As far as culture goes, like I posted in the gun thread I was reading a book about a sociology student going into the projects of Chicago a few blocks from his school and documenting his interactions.   That got me thinking a lot about what some of these neighborhoods and situations might look like.   Not hard to imagine if I was born into that situation and drugs are all around the neighborhood and buildings, main choices for $ are getting on a bus or driving a distance for low paying job or hustling, etc..  different paths would be taken.    Eye opening book to say the least.  

Not sure how to fix that to tell you the truth, but I think a big thing is to have options and examples.   Every community needs businesses, jobs, a variety of successful people.  One thing I have noticed in other discussions like this is the goal seems to be - get educated, get a job, get the f out of town.  That is great for the % that does that, but at the same time it does nothing to improve the old area or give leaders there.   

When you look at the hugely disproportionate #s the War on Drugs inflicted on the black community, IMO that should be one of the first things that should be addressed.  Not sure what that does for the above paragraph, so I am probably just rambling now.  LOL.  
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At some point we have to stop "thinking" about it and start doing "something" about it.  We're in this "paralysis by analysis" mode where we also don't want to hurt anyone's feelings. 

It's time for some tough love for a lot of people. 

 
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BladeRunner said:
For me - and this is not even debatable - it's the single motherhood rate in the black community.  That is THE #1 issue in the black community and the cause of the massive gaps in murder and other crimes.  It's at 70+% - that's absolutely horrific.

We have women teaching young men how to be men and that just won't work - for any race.  I don't know how we do this, but we need to put back shame in single motherhood instead of glorifying it - just as we shame the men TODAY for abandoning those same families and being dogs.

Fix the single motherhood rate and you'll fix 90% of the problems - not just in the black community, but all communities.
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1.  IMO a good chunk of this ties into the drugs issue I brought up.  (i know... don't do drugs...)     LINK

Racial disparities

Black Americans are four times more likely to be arrested for marijuana charges than their white peers.10 In fact, black Americans make up nearly 30 percent of all drug-related arrests, despite accounting for only 12.5 percent of all substance users.11

Black Americans are nearly six times more likely to be incarcerated for drug-related offenses than their white counterparts, despite equal substance usage rates.12 Almost 80 percent of people serving time for a federal drug offense are black or Latino.13 In state prisons, people of color make up 60 percent of those serving time for drug charges.14

In the federal system, the average black defendant convicted of a drug offense will serve nearly the same amount of time (58.7 months) as a white defendant would for a violent crime (61.7 months).15

People of color account for 70 percent of all defendants convicted of charges with a mandatory minimum sentence. Prosecutors are twice as likely to pursue a mandatory minimum sentence for a black defendant than a white defendant charged with the same offense,16 and black defendants are less likely to receive relief from mandatory minimums.17 On average, defendants subject to mandatory minimums spend five times longer in prison than those convicted of other offenses.18

2.  An extension of that is all the ramifications after the incarcerations - getting jobs, being able to live with your family (if they are in state/federal housing), the %s of going back to crime, etc..  

3.  Just because household is a single mother household, doesn't mean the father's aren't in their kids lives.   Interesting article HERE

Fatherlessness is not defined by living arrangement. Josh Levs’s article, “No, Most Black Kids are not Fatherless” deconstructs the “70% of black children are fatherless” myth. Data from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention report, “Fathers’ Involvement with Their Children” (yes, the CDC tracks data & researches topics like this), verify that the majority of black fathers actually live with their children (2.5 million versus 1.7 million who don’t). Furthermore, whether living in the same home or not, black fathers are the most involved of all primary recorded race and ethnic groups.

Many fatherlessness statistics utilize marital and housing statuses as cornerstone metrics, resulting in highly inflated figures. These stats do not account for the fact that men have died or passed away, couples may live together while unmarried, couples may be divorced, and, let’s not forget, that, due to the system of incarceration, men are not only separated from their families but often even prevented from staying in the homes with their families if the housing is federally provided.

 
BladeRunner said:
At some point we have to stop "thinking" about it and start doing "something" about it.  We're in this "paralysis by analysis" mode where we also don't want to hurt anyone's feelings. 

It's time for some tough love for a lot of people. 
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Sure, but none of us are in power to do much besides vote.   We are all just sitting around debating this.   What do you suggest we do instead?

ETA:  for example, I don't think "tough love" is a specific proposal.  

 
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The same people who vilify black people are the same who worship a man who has been married three times, cheated on every one of his wives, including with a porn star, is a terrible, absentee father, with zero moral convictions.

Newt Gingrich married his high school math teacher to get out of Vietnam, cheated on her and ultimately asked for a divorce as she lay dying of cancer.

Limbaugh, Giuliani.....a long list of broken marriages and substance abuse.

 
And on cue, a neighboring city just announced a gun buyback program to help with violence.

Those things sound really stupid to me, and it's hard to see how anyone would think they'd help. The only people I can think that could possibly benefit from this are gun manufacturers. 

Is there some evidence I'm missing?

 
Encyclopedia Brown said:
The same people who vilify black people are the same who worship a man who has been married three times, cheated on every one of his wives, including with a porn star, is a terrible, absentee father, with zero moral convictions.

Newt Gingrich married his high school math teacher to get out of Vietnam, cheated on her and ultimately asked for a divorce as she lay dying of cancer.

Limbaugh, Giuliani.....a long list of broken marriages and substance abuse.
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No one is vilifying the black community.  Stop race hustling. 

We're trying to understand and solve a problem and providing our thoughts.  No one is worshipping those men you mentioned and no one approves of their behavior.  I feel like you're trying to distract from having a painful discussion.

No pain, no gain.  :shrug:

 
pollardsvision said:
I read it. What's you proposal to fix the single motherhood issue?
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Proposals not allowed, complaints only.  🤣

I think there are lots of paths to go down...and they all are valid to at least explore...KP is exploring some above that I think are "part of the story".  Based on the overwhelming nature of the data (we're not talking a 30% difference but a 500%-1500% difference in same cases) I think there are going to be many drivers.  As I alluded in the original post I'm particularly interested in the culture angle because I think it has an oversized impact with an undersized emphasis.  Frankly its hard to talk about, we'll go right to its something else.  Nobody can make a buck talking about it, maybe some preachers in their sermons but that's it.  All the other reasons we cite...someone stands to make money or get elected from it.  All the other reasons tend to be reasons other than some form of personal agency.

I think there are some really big "cultural" elements.  Family structure and norms.  Expectations by parents of children.  Whats attractive in a mate/partner.  Nobody talk about these.  They are huge.

I'll just start with family.  Overall as a society we are gradually de-valuing men and family.  We are accepting of and in many cases celebrating single parenting.  Some of it is the natural result of a positive process of properly valuing women.  But across all races marriage is simply no longer held in as high a regard.  Who is responsible for an individual having a child out of wedlock...other than the individual? 

Someone linked the Moynihan report, there is a lot of data and thinking around the impact that the social programs of the 60's had on the black family, it helped support a culture of not needing a husband (actually financially disadvantageous when it came to qualification for benefits).  The combined impact of this and other factors is particularly show up in a punitive way on black marriage rates.  Household income with one adult is never going to be as high as a household with two adults....pretty simple.  Two parents vs one...is the impact of that on a child in doubt?. How does it get fixed....to start I think we have to actually talk about it.  The people that drive the narratives.  Our politicians, our media, our community leaders.  If we can't talk about it, we'll go nowhere.  

 
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Here   was an article that I just stumbled on and found a bit shocking.   

Blacks or African Americans owned approximately 124,551 businesses, with about 28.5% (35,547) of these businesses in the Health Care and Social Assistance sector, the highest percentage of any minority group.

Now, compare that to 580,000 owned by Asian owned (less than 1/2 the population of the US), and 330,000 Hispanic owned.   (and all of those are a tiny % overall, but still.. ).   I am guessing that the reasons for that are many of the factors already talked about, but what got me thinking is that it's even harder to ask a group of people to take control and care about their communities when they don't have much ownership of those communities.  

 
djmich said:
Proposals not allowed, complaints only.  🤣

I think there are lots of paths to go down...and they all are valid to at least explore...KP is exploring some above that I think are "part of the story".  Based on the overwhelming nature of the data (we're not talking a 30% difference but a 500%-1500% difference in same cases) I think there are going to be many drivers.  As I alluded in the original post I'm particularly interested in the culture angle because I think it has an oversized impact with an undersized emphasis.  Frankly its hard to talk about, we'll go right to its something else.  Nobody can make a buck talking about it, maybe some preachers in their sermons but that's it.  All the other reasons we cite...someone stands to make money or get elected from it.  All the other reasons tend to be reasons other than some form of personal agency.

I think there are some really big "cultural" elements.  Family structure and norms.  Expectations by parents of children.  Whats attractive in a mate/partner.  Nobody talk about these.  They are huge.

I'll just start with family.  Overall as a society we are gradually de-valuing men and family.  We are accepting of and in many cases celebrating single parenting.  Some of it is the natural result of a positive process of properly valuing women.  But across all races marriage is simply no longer held in as high a regard.  Who is responsible for an individual having a child out of wedlock...other than the individual? 

Someone linked the Moynihan report, there is a lot of data and thinking around the impact that the social programs of the 60's had on the black family, it helped support a culture of not needing a husband (actually financially disadvantageous when it came to qualification for benefits).  The combined impact of this and other factors is particularly show up in a punitive way on black marriage rates.  Household income with one adult is never going to be as high as a household with two adults....pretty simple.  Two parents vs one...is the impact of that on a child in doubt?. How does it get fixed....to start I think we have to actually talk about it.  The people that drive the narratives.  Our politicians, our media, our community leaders.  If we can't talk about it, we'll go nowhere.  
Click to expand...
Were those societal programs only for black families?   The reason I ask is if they were, then that would be a clear indicator.  If not, then we have to figure out why black families embraced single motherhood so much more than any other race given that these societal programs were available for everyone.

I also agree with your devaluation of men.  Feminism is the root cause of this and, in reality, it also has harmed women more than it has helped.  Well at least the last couple waves, anyways.  Young men NEED men in their lives - women just can't cut it alone.  Just as men would have a problem.   The irony is that we expect men to PAY for having kids, but then turn around and demonize them and say they are nothing but monsters and better off being out of their lives.

Men are just as important as women in families and children's lives.  We're seeing the devastating effects of not following that, especially in the black community.

 
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KarmaPolice said:
Sure, but none of us are in power to do much besides vote.   We are all just sitting around debating this.   What do you suggest we do instead?

ETA:  for example, I don't think "tough love" is a specific proposal.  
Click to expand...
I think I may not be aligned with you here.  I don't know what tough love is but I can give a more concrete example.

None of us are in power here to change outcomes on a broad scale.  Yet that doesn't prevent for example you from saying something like "we need to fund schools more".  We all know you are not personally going to fund schools.  You are hoping that is something that we as society and our politicians prioritize.

Similarly everyone knows that you are not personally going to change black marriage rates, or how much a black child is forced to study by their parents.  But why is it that there's this idea that we can't talk about these things...because KarmaPolice or Blade is not going to solve them?

 
BladeRunner said:
Were those societal programs only for black families?   The reason I ask is if they were, then that would be a clear indicator.  If not, then we have to figure out why black families embraced single motherhood so much more than any other race given that these societal programs were available for everyone.
Click to expand...
I think if you look at the framing of the programs by LBJ and others it was very much about addressing poverty within the black community.  They were pretty plain about it, including "white guilt".  I think broadly speaking they were well intended.  We know how the saying goes about good intentions.

 
djmich said:
I think if you look at the framing of the programs by LBJ and others it was very much about addressing poverty within the black community.  They were pretty plain about it, including "white guilt".  I think broadly speaking they were well intended.  We know how the saying goes about good intentions.
Click to expand...
Okay, so now we have a possible root cause.

 
djmich said:
I think I may not be aligned with you here.  I don't know what tough love is but I can give a more concrete example.

None of us are in power here to change outcomes on a broad scale.  Yet that doesn't prevent for example you from saying something like "we need to fund schools more".  We all know you are not personally going to fund schools.  You are hoping that is something that we as society and our politicians prioritize.

Similarly everyone knows that you are not personally going to change black marriage rates, or how much a black child is forced to study by their parents.  But why is it that there's this idea that we can't talk about these things...because KarmaPolice or Blade is not going to solve them?
Click to expand...
I get that, that's why I asked for his idea.   He was saying we need to stop talking about it and start doing it.     

We can for sure talk about it and think of solutions/ideas here (i thought that's what we were doing), we can vote for people we think will implement better changes, we can volunteer, we could run for office...   

Sometimes I misread intent, so if you guys are just saying that him saying we need to do "something" about it = us having an honest discussion, cool.  

 
BladeRunner said:
Okay, so now we have a possible root cause.
Click to expand...
It is unquestionable these programs, which are enormous in scope and scale had an impact.  I wouldn't throw them under the bus in terms of them having positive impacts.

But I do think they had significant unintended consequences, particularly in how they were structured...that live on today.  This is not necessarily THE root cause, there are many things in play, but I think its very reasonable to think the impact is large.

 
djmich said:
Proposals not allowed, complaints only.  🤣

I think there are lots of paths to go down...and they all are valid to at least explore...KP is exploring some above that I think are "part of the story".  Based on the overwhelming nature of the data (we're not talking a 30% difference but a 500%-1500% difference in same cases) I think there are going to be many drivers.  As I alluded in the original post I'm particularly interested in the culture angle because I think it has an oversized impact with an undersized emphasis.  Frankly its hard to talk about, we'll go right to its something else.  Nobody can make a buck talking about it, maybe some preachers in their sermons but that's it.  All the other reasons we cite...someone stands to make money or get elected from it.  All the other reasons tend to be reasons other than some form of personal agency.

I think there are some really big "cultural" elements.  Family structure and norms.  Expectations by parents of children.  Whats attractive in a mate/partner.  Nobody talk about these.  They are huge.

I'll just start with family.  Overall as a society we are gradually de-valuing men and family.  We are accepting of and in many cases celebrating single parenting.  Some of it is the natural result of a positive process of properly valuing women.  But across all races marriage is simply no longer held in as high a regard.  Who is responsible for an individual having a child out of wedlock...other than the individual? 

Someone linked the Moynihan report, there is a lot of data and thinking around the impact that the social programs of the 60's had on the black family, it helped support a culture of not needing a husband (actually financially disadvantageous when it came to qualification for benefits).  The combined impact of this and other factors is particularly show up in a punitive way on black marriage rates.  Household income with one adult is never going to be as high as a household with two adults....pretty simple.  Two parents vs one...is the impact of that on a child in doubt?. How does it get fixed....to start I think we have to actually talk about it.  The people that drive the narratives.  Our politicians, our media, our community leaders.  If we can't talk about it, we'll go nowhere.  
Click to expand...
I don't disagree with much of that. Again, I was asking about specific proposals in a post saying it's time stop thinking about it and DO something. 

As far as the impact of social programs on single motherhood, that makes sense. In my personal experience, it's shocking to me so many people have kids without a care in the world about how anything will get paid for. I surely see the downside of some of these programs. My wife and I never had kids, and surely, I don't love seeing people pop out kids knowing everyone else will foot the bill.

So, I can see how expansive social programs have lessened the need for more careful family planning. What to do in that aspect, I don't know. 

Now, young girls having unprotected sex with the hot POS without much thought about the future isn't exclusive to race or income. It's pretty much the most universal thing there is.

Of course, young girls from families with means have a lot  options when they make terrible decisions. 

For those of you that really want to help out with the problem of single motherhood......where do you stand on abortion access? Maybe even publicly funding them? (I remember somebody saying we need to have tough discussions).

All I know is young girls from all races and ages have unprotected sex with the wrong guys. If you're committed to helping with the problem of single motherhood, surely you want to make sure that poorer women have access and funds to the same choices that other women have.

 
KarmaPolice said:
I get that, that's why I asked for his idea.   He was saying we need to stop talking about it and start doing it.     

We can for sure talk about it and think of solutions/ideas here (i thought that's what we were doing), we can vote for people we think will implement better changes, we can volunteer, we could run for office...   

Sometimes I misread intent, so if you guys are just saying that him saying we need to do "something" about it = us having an honest discussion, cool.  
Click to expand...
Yes, that's what I said in my response to Pollard.  The best start I think on this front is to actually allow this to be part of the discussion and for our leaders to begin to focus on this much, much more.  Simple words from our leaders would mean so much.

Karma, I remember using this example I think in a conversation with you a while back.  LeBron James...tremendous reach and potential impact of his words.  He is very focused and vocal about things like systemic racism and policing.  I get it, but its like being a salmon swimming upstream in mating season...there's already a million of them, its everyones focus.  And another thread altogether that we've beaten to death...but how many unarmed black men killed each year.

What if he, every day, tweeted "LeBrons Heroes"...a man from the black community that was busting his ### in a 9-5 job, providing for his family.  What if he acknowledged these men are the real heroes, not blessed to be born with his talent but making their way.

Thats just LeBron, what if everyone was doing this instead of tweeting about how Hamburgers are racist.

 
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pollardsvision said:
For those of you that really want to help out with the problem of single motherhood......where do you stand on abortion access? Maybe even publicly funding them? (I remember somebody saying we need to have tough discussions).
Click to expand...
I'm for continued legal abortion up to some age of the unborn (not like 2 months either).  I don't have an issue with the concept of public funding, details tbd

 
pollardsvision said:
I don't disagree with much of that. Again, I was asking about specific proposals in a post saying it's time stop thinking about it and DO something. 

As far as the impact of social programs on single motherhood, that makes sense. In my personal experience, it's shocking to me so many people have kids without a care in the world about how anything will get paid for. I surely see the downside of some of these programs. My wife and I never had kids, and surely, I don't love seeing people pop out kids knowing everyone else will foot the bill.

So, I can see how expansive social programs have lessened the need for more careful family planning. What to do in that aspect, I don't know. 

Now, young girls having unprotected sex with the hot POS without much thought about the future isn't exclusive to race or income. It's pretty much the most universal thing there is.

Of course, young girls from families with means have a lot  options when they make terrible decisions. 

For those of you that really want to help out with the problem of single motherhood......where do you stand on abortion access? Maybe even publicly funding them? (I remember somebody saying we need to have tough discussions).

All I know is young girls from all races and ages have unprotected sex with the wrong guys. If you're committed to helping with the problem of single motherhood, surely you want to make sure that poorer women have access and funds to the same choices that other women have.
Click to expand...
This has been talked about quite a bit as well, and it usually goes down the road of "choices" and "don't have sex".   IMO that is not remotely a realistic thing, so I am in the camp that you seem to be pointing to where bare minimum birth control and education on such should be readily available to these communities especially.  

 
KarmaPolice said:
I get that, that's why I asked for his idea.   He was saying we need to stop talking about it and start doing it.     

We can for sure talk about it and think of solutions/ideas here (i thought that's what we were doing), we can vote for people we think will implement better changes, we can volunteer, we could run for office...   

Sometimes I misread intent, so if you guys are just saying that him saying we need to do "something" about it = us having an honest discussion, cool.  
Click to expand...
I think we need to follow some general ideas.  How that materializes into concrete solutions I don't know:

  • Stop demonizing men

    This is a result of Feminism, which I believe now is in a "payback and revenge" mode
  • Young men MUST have good adult men in their lives to teach them what it means to be a man.  Women cannot do this and are not equipped to do this.  They can do their best but ultimately it's not the same.

[*]Stop glorifying single mother hood

  • The same way we currently go after and shame dead-beat dads maybe we should apply the same philosophy for single mothers.  At the very least, stop romanticizing and glorifying single mothers.
  • Stop giving women monetary incentives to have kids and leave the men out of their lives

[*]Teach our young women that it isn't okay to be a ho (again, thanks Feminism).

  • We already teach our young men that it ISN'T okay to be a dog, let's also apply that same philosophy to women

[*]Teach our young women to make better choices in men

  • Maybe that goes with the above?  I don't know.
  • Feminism doesn't mean you get to sleep around with no consequences (just like it isn't okay for men).

[*]Teach that THE nuclear family is the correct family - a mother AND a father and kids. 

  • Do not allow women to get invitro unless there is a father involved
  • Do not allow men or women to adopt unless there are two parents (maybe this is already done, not sure).

[*]Hold both the man and the women (or boy and girl) accountable if a kid is born. 

  • Stop handing out abortions like candy.  I think we have a lot of people who think abortion is a form of birth control.

Again, these are just ideas. Not sure if some, all or none can be implemented but we need to do something.  Whatever form that takes.

 
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djmich said:
Yes, that's what I said in my response to Pollard.  The best start I think on this front is to actually allow this to be part of the discussion and for our leaders to begin to focus on this much, much more.  Simple words from our leaders would mean so much.

Karma, I remember using this example I think in a conversation with you a while back.  LeBron James...tremendous reach and potential impact of his words.  He is very focused and vocal about things like systemic racism and policing.  I get it, but its like being a salmon swimming upstream in mating season...there's already a million of them, its everyones focus.  And other thread altogether that we've beaten to death...but how many unarmed black men killed each year.

What if he, every day, tweeted "LeBrons Heroes"...a man from the black community that was busting his ### in a 9-5 job, providing for his family.  What if he acknowledged these men are the real heroes, not blessed to be born with his talent but making their way.

Thats just LeBron, what if everyone was doing this instead about tweeting how Hamburgers are racist.
Click to expand...
Fully down with that idea.   Or at the very least do that AND tweet about racist hamburgers.  

 
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KarmaPolice said:
This has been talked about quite a bit as well, and it usually goes down the road of "choices" and "don't have sex".   IMO that is not remotely a realistic thing, so I am in the camp that you seem to be pointing to where bare minimum birth control and education on such should be readily available to these communities especially.  
Click to expand...
I think we can separate this out.

I don't think its realistic to expect people to not have unwanted children.

I think that government funded ways to prevent and even remove those unwanted children out of the equation before they are born is an option, albeit an unfortunate one.  Either way the government is going to fund the child and the ROI is better if they werent born (sorry, I like to speak plainly but its what we're saying).

I don't think we should just leave it as "don't have sex is unrealistic so we are destined to have to have a lot of unwanted children".  It completely absolves parents, politicians, influencers, us all from calling it out and saying this is not "our culture".  Knocking a woman up and not giving a #### is not our culture.

 
djmich said:
I think we can separate this out.

I don't think its realistic to expect people to not have unwanted children.

I think that government funded ways to prevent and even remove those unwanted children out of the equation before they are born is an option, albeit an unfortunate one.  Either way the government is going to fund the child and the ROI is better if they werent born (sorry, I like to speak plainly but its what we're saying).

I don't think we should just leave it as "don't have sex is unrealistic so we are destined to have to have a lot of unwanted children".  It completely absolves parents, politicians, influencers, us all from calling it out and saying this is not "our culture".  Knocking a woman up and not giving a #### is not our culture.
Click to expand...
I want to be clear that is not my position either, and I agree with your post.  My post was more my observation from other threads of where the conversation went with many pro-life people who also seemed hesitant about birth control too.  

 
KarmaPolice said:
I want to be clear that is not my position either, and I agree with your post.  My post was more my observation from other threads of where the conversation went with many pro-life people who also seemed hesitant about birth control too.  
Click to expand...
Yes, I respect peoples firmness in their religious faith.  I think if you believe life begins at conception its noble to fight for those black lives or any lives.  But the anti contraception thing is a bridge too far for me.

 
djmich said:
Yes, I respect peoples firmness in their religious faith.  I think if you believe life begins at conception its noble to fight for those black lives or any lives.  But the anti contraception thing is a bridge too far for me.
Click to expand...
For sure, imo that should be handed out like candy.   I don't agree with the other part, respect the position, and also know contraception is not 100%.  

 
BladeRunner said:
So I'm asked to provide what my solutions are and I provide a six-point plan and then no one comments on it?
Click to expand...
I am digesting them on my phone while outside.  No surprise I don't agree with much at first glance, but was going to comment tonight while on the PC.  

No comment on my reply to your op and the article I linked? ;)

 
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