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Need advice kid sports friendship loyalty (1 Viewer)

belljr

belljr

Footballguy
So short version I've been coaching with a guy for 5 years now. Kids are entering junior year.  Well the team kind of broke apart, we moved organizations,  We have 6 kids, the problem, we have zero pitchers. Finding position players isn't a problem.  The last 2 tryouts, no pitchers.  Now I committed to him for this season but am having second thoughts.  I'm thinking of taking my daughter to other tryouts because I feel like this is going to go south.  

We've been together for so long, the kids are best friends, I just don't know what to do. The guy running the organization tells us not to worry you'll find some but I just can't shake the feeling, that it would be too late 

Am I a #### for changing my mind?

 
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Is winning important for your daughter's future in some way like for a scholarship? Is winning important to your daughter? Be honest with her that you think the team isn't going to win many games and ask her for her thoughts.

 
Dezbelief said:
Is winning important for your daughter's future in some way like for a scholarship? Is winning important to your daughter? Be honest with her that you think the team isn't going to win many games and ask her for her thoughts.
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At this age most of the tournaments is not about winning per se but exposure and being competitive. (Depending on the tournament) some are, some aren't

She rather play with her friends but Im afraid we get to a point where we have to scrape the whole thing. She is a d3 potential d2 so we are not talking about some free ride somewhere

 
Been there.  Recently. Just soccer...

I assume girls?  If so, I'm surprised you made it to junior year.  About freshman year is when they all start trying volleyball, basketball, etc.  I saw it coming with out girls club soccer team and called it off early rather than wait for the inevitable.  It sucks but it's hard to run a team (soccer needs at leat 15 committed players) with 5 Gung ho players, 4 that mostly like it, 3 that are going to skip for school volleyball and 2 that are just out there cuz mom says they need to get off the couch.

My daughter is a keeper which is hard to find so I knew we could find other teams but I'd had some of those girls since they were 8.  They hit 12-13 and we just couldn't stay as competitive as we intended to be.  I cut bait, called the end of it and told everyone to go tryout at other clubs. 

 
belljr said:
At this age most of the tournaments is not about winning per se but exposure and being competitive. (Depending on the tournament) some are, some aren't

She rather play with her friends but Im afraid we get to a point where we have to scrape the whole thing. She is a d3 potential d2 so we are not talking about some free ride somewhere
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If you feel the whole thing is gonna be lost explain that to her then. I would ask her opinion on how she feels and tell her how you feel and see where you meet in the middle. What does her friend and her father think as well? is it something you both could find a different team together? 

 
DJackson10 said:
If you feel the whole thing is gonna be lost explain that to her then. I would ask her opinion on how she feels and tell her how you feel and see where you meet in the middle. What does her friend and her father think as well? is it something you both could find a different team together? 
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He's trying to keep it together for the sake of the other 5 kids

 
SpurrierisisGod said:
Been there.  Recently. Just soccer...

I assume girls?  If so, I'm surprised you made it to junior year.  About freshman year is when they all start trying volleyball, basketball, etc.  I saw it coming with out girls club soccer team and called it off early rather than wait for the inevitable.  It sucks but it's hard to run a team (soccer needs at leat 15 committed players) with 5 Gung ho players, 4 that mostly like it, 3 that are going to skip for school volleyball and 2 that are just out there cuz mom says they need to get off the couch.

My daughter is a keeper which is hard to find so I knew we could find other teams but I'd had some of those girls since they were 8.  They hit 12-13 and we just couldn't stay as competitive as we intended to be.  I cut bait, called the end of it and told everyone to go tryout at other clubs. 
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Sounds like this guy knows things

 
My daughter is a pitcher, also 17. The odds of you finding a pitcher who just happens to waltz into a new organization at that age is slim to none and slim just left town. If they do happen to show up, odds are even smaller that they are good enough to make for a competitive season. 

 
Cjw_55106 said:
My daughter is a pitcher, also 17. The odds of you finding a pitcher who just happens to waltz into a new organization at that age is slim to none and slim just left town. If they do happen to show up, odds are even smaller that they are good enough to make for a competitive season. 
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I should say. We switched to a bigger established organization but I agree

 
I have a relative that coaches his girls year round.  He makes millions but spends a lot of time and money coaching and travelling with their teams.  Pitchers are the crown jewel that all the coaches fight over.  Parent disputes happen and teams break apart.  But from what I have seen, his girls don't appear any better than I was as a kid and my local area had lots of good competition.  Why are average-good players travelling out of state to play other average-good players?

 
I'd say you have to explore other opportunities. I know they are all friends but after a while the (Potential) losing will strain those friendships. After a while, any competitive efforts will likely go away when you are 0-whatever and going into games knowing you are going to get clobbered. Its not like they are 6-7 year olds where you can lean on "...but did we have fun???" Eventually the core of 6 will dwindle, kids will blow off games and you'll be left with nothing next year. 

My own son loved playing deck hockey, we had a great team and won a bunch of championships. But a few core players left and the team was never the same, and I could see his whole interest level really dropping and it effected his play. He asked to stop playing and then a week later some kids on his ice team asked him to join their team at another facility and he's back to loving it and playing well. 

Unfortunately, kids + sports have a natural expiration date, they can only be playing for so long. I'm not a "win at all costs" guy, but I want to make sure those few years are mostly good years. 

 
You could still help coach the current team if your daughter decided to switch teams ;)

Her being happy at that age is huge, if being with her friends does that it is hard to discount.  How is the High School team?  Is she getting exposure there?  As a parent I would love to see her on a team that is doing well in some of those showcase style tournaments, and I know how hard that is with out pitching.  It's just so hard to keep girls from burning out and I don't know if losing on Sundays will contribute to that more than not playing with friends. 

It's a tough call, but I think you should at least get her to some other tryouts so she can see what is out there while you still can. 

P.S. who did you switch to?  I'll take a PM if you don't want it public. 

 
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belljr said:
Im more concerned how much of a #### for backing out but agree with most posted
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Not a #### move - you have to do what is best for your kid, and at this point the writing is on the wall that you are unlikely to field a team. I'd start by letting your coaching partner know your concerns and let him know you are going to explore options. He may share your sentiments. If he does, it may be prudent to let everyone know that they may want to be looking as well.

Not sure when rosters finalize for softball, but in many sports there is a final date that rosters need to be finalized. Just recently went through this with soccer for my 13 year old, and while his former team will be fine, it was sketchy for a while and even though we hadn't been actively looking, we essentially fell into a situation that is a lot better for his development and goals. I think, based on what you have described so far, you're doing your daughter a disservice, assuming she's not just in it to hang out with friends, to not at least entertain looking at other teams that may provide a better opportunity.

 
belljr said:
Im more concerned how much of a #### for backing out but agree with most posted
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If you are as good a friends with the other coach as you say you are then I think you need to just have a heart to heart about what you are seeing.  Maybe he sees the same thing but is trying to hold it together.  At this point, if it's not working you guys need to come to that realization and do what is best for your girls.  It sucks but sometimes that is reality.  If they guy is a good friend and realistic this shouldn't be a big deal with good communication.  

 
Jaysus said:
You could still help coach the current team if your daughter decided to switch teams ;)
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I get you're being half-serious, but this is not as ridiculous as it sounds. In a sort of big town hockey area that I played for as a youth, we had two coaches at a reasonably serious level that didn't have kids on the team but were from the town and wanted to see the kids have a place to play with dwindling numbers. We had a coach take on a team that could barely field enough skaters to skate effectively and we won a state championship because of his stewardship. His son had played with us, but was in rehabilitation at the time and he coached us anyway because he knew we needed one. It was tough for him to watch his kid go through that, and he talked with us about it at times because we were his son's friends from our childhood, and I think everyone helped each other out immensely. 

Anyway, that's different and a special situation, but coaching while your kid is somewhere else isn't unheard of in town sports. 

 
Have you had this discussion with him?  I’d be up front about it and honestly would include your daughter in the decision making.   

 
AAABatteries said:
Have you had this discussion with him?  I’d be up front about it and honestly would include your daughter in the decision making.   
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Oh I have. Not about trying out somewhere else but this is going south.

We committed based on my daughter. But she hasn't been at tryouts and doesn't want to play on a team that has awful pitching/stinks. Her choice was to stay with him but I asked her what if "Jane" is our starting pitcher..  she said no thanks

I'm worried if we wait to see if we slap something together and it fails we have no where to go but a crappy team. When now she could/would make some of the better ones

 
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If you gut tells you you need to make the move, make it now imo

 I’ve been on both sides of this before, both sides sucks. It is what it is, do what makes your daughter happy

 
belljr said:
Oh I have. Not about trying out somewhere else but this is going south.

We committed based on my daughter. But she hasn't been at tryouts and doesn't want to play on a team that has awful pitching/stinks. Her choice was to stay with him but I asked her what if "Jane" is our starting pitcher..  she said no thanks

I'm worried if we wait to see if we slap something together and it fails we have no where to go but a crappy team. When now she could/would make some of the better ones
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But you really haven't.  If you haven't broached the subject of the team folding and because of that you are thinking of trying out for other teams then you really haven't had an honest discussion with your friend about the direction of the team and options based on the reality of having no pitching options.   It seems like you are just skirting the issue and not really talking reality with your friend/co-coach.  If he is truly a friend this should be a simple conversation.  

 
Gally said:
But you really haven't.  If you haven't broached the subject of the team folding and because of that you are thinking of trying out for other teams then you really haven't had an honest discussion with your friend about the direction of the team and options based on the reality of having no pitching options.   It seems like you are just skirting the issue and not really talking reality with your friend/co-coach.  If he is truly a friend this should be a simple conversation.  
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I kind of see where you are coming from but we were 80% close to folding 3 weeks ago.  He decided to keep going knowing we had "7" with me.  I said I wasn't sure, I'd let him know.   We committed 1.5 weeks ago. 

Now our 7 is 5 with Zero pitchers.  So I told him I dont feel like this is going to work but the guy that runs the organization says everything will be fine even though we lost out on 4 pitchers already....

 
belljr said:
Oh I have. Not about trying out somewhere else but this is going south.

We committed based on my daughter. But she hasn't been at tryouts and doesn't want to play on a team that has awful pitching/stinks. Her choice was to stay with him but I asked her what if "Jane" is our starting pitcher..  she said no thanks
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As a parent of collegiate athletes this is kind of worrisome to me

 
belljr said:
I kind of see where you are coming from but we were 80% close to folding 3 weeks ago.  He decided to keep going knowing we had "7" with me.  I said I wasn't sure, I'd let him know.   We committed 1.5 weeks ago. 

Now our 7 is 5 with Zero pitchers.  So I told him I dont feel like this is going to work but the guy that runs the organization says everything will be fine even though we lost out on 4 pitchers already....
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is the "guy that runs the organization" a different person than your friend?  If so, you and the friend need to sit down over a beer and figure out what is best for your girls.  The organization doesn't matter and sounds like it is a bit delusional (based on your side of the story).   

 
Gally said:
is the "guy that runs the organization" a different person than your friend?  If so, you and the friend need to sit down over a beer and figure out what is best for your girls.  The organization doesn't matter and sounds like it is a bit delusional (based on your side of the story).   
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Yes.   Guy that runs it, doesn't have kids in the organization 

 
I'm having flashbacks to the situation o posted above.  It is eerily similar.  Parents start getting nervous and looking around...then a couple new kids say they're coming and they bail...Director says "it'll work out"...

Invitations for us were always due by June 1.  I folded the team June 2 knowing it'd never "work out". And in hindsight, I was right.  Out of 16 girls, 5 no longer play club, 8 moved on to different clubs (my daughter included), 2 moved out of town, 1 goes back and forth - plays sometimes.

The "major" team in the area the same age (been together for years, win state league) is now having issues. Best player not playing club due to too many injuries and 2 other girls dropped off.  They've had to add some lesser talent and not sure where they are headed.  

Girls mainly just want to play with their friends if possible.  Other than the super duper ultra competitive teams/kids.

 
belljr said:
I kind of see where you are coming from but we were 80% close to folding 3 weeks ago.  He decided to keep going knowing we had "7" with me.  I said I wasn't sure, I'd let him know.   We committed 1.5 weeks ago. 

Now our 7 is 5 with Zero pitchers.  So I told him I dont feel like this is going to work but the guy that runs the organization says everything will be fine even though we lost out on 4 pitchers already....
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Of course the guy running the organization is going to say that, he wants your check to keep clearing for him.

How many players do you need to field a competitive softball team - I'd think you want at least 15 or so, and you have 5 with no pitchers. I think you know the answer, you've essentially said as much. Any reason the two girls can't tryout for some of the same teams and see if they both make the same one so they can keep playing together?

 
acarey50 said:
Of course the guy running the organization is going to say that, he wants your check to keep clearing for him.

How many players do you need to field a competitive softball team - I'd think you want at least 15 or so, and you have 5 with no pitchers. I think you know the answer, you've essentially said as much. Any reason the two girls can't tryout for some of the same teams and see if they both make the same one so they can keep playing together?
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The guy charges 500 per team for the whole year, and that's for website, and some other stuff small stuff. He isnt making money like some other places 

We roll with 12/13

 
belljr said:
The guy charges 500 per team for the whole year, and that's for website, and some other stuff small stuff. He isnt making money like some other places 

We roll with 12/13
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My mistake - I assumed when you said he was running it it was more in line with how many clubs run - he was collecting fees for coaching stipends, insurance, renting field space for practice, tournament fees, etc. Sounds like it's something quite a bit different.

Even at 12/13, you're still less than half there, and if your numbers have already dropped from 7 to 5, are the 3 girls that are not you and the other coach's daughter already looking?

As mentioned earlier (and documented in a post here), I was in a similar spot with my son for soccer. We weren't actively looking, but there were enough little things adding up that were cause for concern that when an opportunity presented itself, we decided to try out and it has turned into what appears to be a much better opportunity. Now, I think one of the reasons I'm more pro look at your options is that we were burned in a similar situation 3-4 years ago where kept being told it'll be fine, then a week before the season 3-4 more players left, so quite literally scrambled to grab any kid off the street which was a mess and ended up playing a full club soccer season where for most games we were shorthanded the entire game with only 10 players, and in some cases, only 9 players showing up.

 
Similar thing happened with my son's soccer team.  We hit the age (12-14) where kids stop playing and it gets harder to field as many teams as there are in the area.  We'd been with the same coach and about 5 of the kids for 5+ years.  Had to combine with another team this past year to have enough kid (and a goalie).  

Right around spring tryouts, we found out our only goalie was leaving for another team.  We had no other goalie prospects and we were not going to be competitive without one.  Some of the kids we had just combined with, quietly starting trying out elsewhere without telling our team / coaches.  Coaches caught wind of it from where they were trying out and let the rest of the team know they should also start looking because we may not have enough for a team next year.  My son missed the first tryout (of two) but fortunately showed enough in the second to make it onto another (better) local team.  The original team disbanded.  Fortunately most of the kids that wanted to keep playing found a place to play.

 
belljr said:
He's trying to keep it together for the sake of the other 5 kids
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Yeah I'd bail but I'd give him notice and a set time frame. if we don't have more players by X date I gotta pull us out and look for something. How would your daughter feel if she isn't playing on a team as well? Definitely should bring that up in your conversation about this with her 

 
belljr said:
Im more concerned how much of a #### for backing out but agree with most posted
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Don't feel bad. I think as long as you get your concerns forward with the guy and give him a date for this to be fix or you need to go doesn't make you look bad. Also if you daughter is gunning to go elsewhere that would help too

 
belljr said:
Yes.   Guy that runs it, doesn't have kids in the organization 
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Yeah I'd probably go sit down with you buddy over some beers at the local sports bar and discuss this and try to persuade him into "screw this guy it's not working out and we waited long enough." 

 
Lehigh98 said:
Similar thing happened with my son's soccer team.  We hit the age (12-14) where kids stop playing and it gets harder to field as many teams as there are in the area.  We'd been with the same coach and about 5 of the kids for 5+ years.  Had to combine with another team this past year to have enough kid (and a goalie).  

Right around spring tryouts, we found out our only goalie was leaving for another team.  We had no other goalie prospects and we were not going to be competitive without one.  Some of the kids we had just combined with, quietly starting trying out elsewhere without telling our team / coaches.  Coaches caught wind of it from where they were trying out and let the rest of the team know they should also start looking because we may not have enough for a team next year.  My son missed the first tryout (of two) but fortunately showed enough in the second to make it onto another (better) local team.  The original team disbanded.  Fortunately most of the kids that wanted to keep playing found a place to play.
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That's more then what I got. I wasn't a great great player but was good enough in the field, walked a lot and if I had to fill in as a pitcher if needed and take my licks for the better of a team. I tried out for the local township team that most of my friends who had been on the High School team. I didn't make it but coach liked my attitude and offered me a coaching/manager role. First game coach didn't make it a buddy of mine (past away the next summer do to OD) dad ended up filling in. We didn't have enough players so I got to play based on the rules as I had tried out and went through the requirements and was apparently the last cut. So I played. I messed up my bunt sign and swung away and drove one of my best hits ever down the 3B line for a double clearing the bags. Scored a batter later. A kid made the team that a lot of parents were upset made it over myself. The kid about 3 games later ended up in a fight with another team during our game, cursed out the umpire/spit in the other teams coaches face and was thrown out. Our coach was quick went to him in the dugout and told him to pack his sh** and he was off the team. After the game Coach gave a speech how that was not how we act but was proud of how the rest of us handled it. Announced right then and there he was calling the league and putting me on the active roster for the rest of the year which drew a loud roar from my teammates and the parents. Ended up with 4 HRs played all over, pitched about 12 innings and we made playoffs but lost early on. 

Next year I decided to try out for the next oldest squad to be with my friends despite the fact I was still of age to play for my current team. That ended really badly. I went to tryouts thought I did ok. I then went to a practice or tryout as I had the schedule and no one was there. I called up one of my buddies and he said they had practice else where. Got in touch with the coach who said to tell me I didn't make the team. Coach didn't have the balls to get on my buddies phone and say I didn't make the team or apologizing for leaving me hanging. The coach was a jerk and was the father of one of the Girls at school and just picked players who were good friends with his daughter. I was devastated to say the least and admit I went home in tears. That night I got a phone call from my old coach asking how I was doing and he heard what happened with the team. He said my friends had called him and told him what happened and asked if there was space for me on my old team. Coach called me and said he had a roster spot waiting for me because one of the kids that was suppose to make it just broke his leg and would be out the whole summer. But before offering me the whole gig he asked me "So tell me? how would it feel to pitch as our closer this year?" I told him "coach they didn't nickname me Wild Thing for nothing I'd be honored." He then told me his son who had a cup of coffee in the minors would work with me on pitches. Taught me a splitter and knuckle Curve and a Slurve to go with my fastball and Cutter. Had the time of my life. I had 3 friends who didn't try out for the older squad on the team so at least I got to play with a few friends. 

I'm glad the coaches in your spot told the kids to look for other teams. I was fortunate I had friends who looked out for me and made a good impression with my former team that when the coach heard about me getting shafted and he needed a player it was to call me. He told me even if he didn't have a roster spot open he wanted me to come back and manage because I was still doing that and keeping score and stuff even after I was put on the active roster the year before. 

 
Looking back as my son enters his senior year of college and baseball will be done for me unless any of the grandkids play.  I wish I would have pushed him less, enjoyed things more and not even thought about levels of competition until 13U or 14U...just so he could get a few years of competitive ball in before high school.  Now he turned out perfectly well adjusted, is a great student and a great ball player....but I think I robbed him of some joy by always over analyzing things as he should have just been learning at his own pace.  Just my two cents as a baseball dad coming to the end of a 14 year journey.

 
I would just let her play with her friends if that is what she wants to do.. Seems odd that you're complaining about not having pitchers yet your daughter doesn't pitch.

Just let her play with her friends & play High School Softball..

 
Kuz said:
I would just let her play with her friends if that is what she wants to do.. Seems odd that you're complaining about not having pitchers yet your daughter doesn't pitch.

Just let her play with her friends & play High School Softball..
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Why is my concern odd? If my daughter pitched I wouldnt be concerned at all ....   You can't have a team without pitchers.  We have zero. And none have showed up the last 2 tryouts..... She wants to play in college and has a few interested in her.   I'm not complaining, I'm worried we won't have any. You need at least 2, 3 to be safe 

You can't just show up and make someone a pitcher.  Its not like baseball where hey you can throw overhand so we can work with you pitching.   

 
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belljr said:
Why is my concern odd? If my daughter pitched I wouldnt be concerned at all ....   You can't have a team without pitchers.  We have zero. And none have showed up the last 2 tryouts..... She wants to play in college and has a few interested in her.   I'm not complaining, I'm worried we won't have any. You need at least 2, 3 to be safe 

You can't just show up and make someone a pitcher.  Its not like baseball where hey you can throw overhand so we can work with you pitching.   
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This is the part that confuses me as a father of a son who plays travel baseball. Why not?

 
jobarules said:
This is the part that confuses me as a father of a son who plays travel baseball. Why not?
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Have you seen softball pitchers pitch?  Its a completely different and unique skillset.   It takes years to develop and practice if you never did it before.

Baseball pitching already has built in "overhand throw"  that all kids learn.  You aren't going to make a 15 or 16 year old girl with no pitching experience a pitcher in a few months.  I should mention we play at a pretty high level also so its not something we can just throw out there.

My daughter pitched for 3 years.  She was slightly above average but as she got older, she did not possess the speed and control needed.  And she probably pitched 3 - 4 days a week 9 months out of the year, and worked with a reputable coach.  Sure you could take some kids at lower/ younger levels and teach the basics and get by, we are way passed that.  But getting a newbie to throw a fastball, change, (insert 3rd pitch) just ain't going to happen

 
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My advice is to take her to tryouts while you still can and let her see what type of other options she may have. 

 
belljr said:
Have you seen softball pitchers pitch?  Its a completely different and unique skillset.   It takes years to develop and practice if you never did it before.

Baseball pitching already has built in "overhand throw"  that all kids learn.  You aren't going to make a 15 or 16 year old girl with no pitching experience a pitcher in a few months.  I should mention we play at a pretty high level also so its not something we can just throw out there.

My daughter pitched for 3 years.  She was slightly above average but as she got older, she did not possess the speed and control needed.  And she probably pitched 3 - 4 days a week 9 months out of the year, and worked with a reputable coach.  Sure you could take some kids at lower younger, levels and teach the basics and get by, we are way passed that.  But getting a newbie to throw a fastball, change, (insert 3rd pitch) just ain't going to happen
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Theres no difference. They both take years of practice. Its not exactly easy throwing strikes from 60 ft away. And you have to learn something beyond a fastball if you want to pitch well. 

 
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