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I’m Back! New and Improved! (2 Viewers)

Never been better!

I’ve “retired” from religion and politics. 😉 I know, shocking, right?!?

How are you doing? 
I'm doing well, thanks.  Totally understand the retirement from politics.  Too exhausting.  When you say retired from religion, you mean in terms of discussing it or in terms of it no longer being a part of your life? 

 
I can't even remember the last time religion was discussed in the slightest here.  Maybe it happens in the psf.   Wouldn't really know.  

Religion and werewolf went away about the same time.  Coincidence?

 
I'm doing well, thanks.  Totally understand the retirement from politics.  Too exhausting.  When you say retired from religion, you mean in terms of discussing it or in terms of it no longer being a part of your life? 
I’m out of organized religion completely. Haven’t stepped foot in a church in about 5 years. Long story short, once I got out of ministry I felt free to ask questions that I couldn’t ask before. And the more answers I found, the more the Bible and organized religion crumbled for me. It was more of no longer being able to believe than no longer wanting to believe. 
 

It’s been a very freeing experience. Although I did have to battle through a lot of anger the first couple of years. 
 

Now I’m learning a lot more about meditation and scientific explanations of life. Just not mainstream “science”, which is just as corrupt as organized religion. Don’t even get me started on this COVID ridiculousness. 😂

 
I can't even remember the last time religion was discussed in the slightest here.  Maybe it happens in the psf.   Wouldn't really know.  

Religion and werewolf went away about the same time.  Coincidence?
Interesting. I guess that means LarryBoy isn’t around any more either. 😉

 
I’m out of organized religion completely. Haven’t stepped foot in a church in about 5 years. Long story short, once I got out of ministry I felt free to ask questions that I couldn’t ask before. And the more answers I found, the more the Bible and organized religion crumbled for me. It was more of no longer being able to believe than no longer wanting to believe. 
 

It’s been a very freeing experience. Although I did have to battle through a lot of anger the first couple of years. 
 

Now I’m learning a lot more about meditation and scientific explanations of life. Just not mainstream “science”, which is just as corrupt as organized religion. Don’t even get me started on this COVID ridiculousness. 😂
I certainly know how you feel and I'm familiar with your journey and all the battles with anger, etc., that you went through.  Religion is such a terrible word in that it tends to put what is believed (or what's supposed to be believed) about God in a box created by men who claimed to be sent from God. Relationship seems to be a softer word that I see many embrace. 

Sometime I'd like to hear more and maybe talk with you about the journey but today is not the time.  Welcome back, it's good to see you.

 
I’m out of organized religion completely. Haven’t stepped foot in a church in about 5 years. Long story short, once I got out of ministry I felt free to ask questions that I couldn’t ask before. And the more answers I found, the more the Bible and organized religion crumbled for me. It was more of no longer being able to believe than no longer wanting to believe. 
 

It’s been a very freeing experience. Although I did have to battle through a lot of anger the first couple of years. 
 

Now I’m learning a lot more about meditation and scientific explanations of life. Just not mainstream “science”, which is just as corrupt as organized religion. Don’t even get me started on this COVID ridiculousness. 😂
Apparently you haven’t retired from politics and religion.

 
I certainly know how you feel and I'm familiar with your journey and all the battles with anger, etc., that you went through.  Religion is such a terrible word in that it tends to put what is believed (or what's supposed to be believed) about God in a box created by men who claimed to be sent from God. Relationship seems to be a softer word that I see many embrace. 

Sometime I'd like to hear more and maybe talk with you about the journey but today is not the time.  Welcome back, it's good to see you.
Always happy to share my experience. One of the biggest things that’s changed about me is that I no longer feel the need to change anyone else’s thinking. “You do you, and I’ll do me” is kind of how I think now. I still love to discuss things and challenge the status quo, but whatever someone wants to believe is up to them. 👍🏼

 
Apparently you haven’t retired from politics and religion.
How so? I don’t view any of the COVID stuff from a political angle. I think both sides suck and have gotten this entire mess wrong from the beginning, from Trump to Biden and everyone in between. 

 
Okay.

But five years ago you were mocking the nonreligious with similar language. I'm just sayin'.
My intention isn’t to mock anyone. I’m trying to challenge people to think for themselves. Blindly accepting the word of “trusted sources” is what tangled me up in religious nonsense for most of my life. Once you wake up to how many lies are told you start to see that same pattern in areas outside of religion. I’m not even sure why I originally got interested in virology and germ theory, but I did. And once I started reading it struck me that it used the same deception and “just trust the experts” approach as religion. 
 

If people just took the time to actually read how the “science” is done, I think most would realize how unscientific germ theory truly is.  

 
If people just took the time to actually read how the “science” is done, I think most would realize how unscientific germ theory truly is.  
I've actually taken the time to DO the science. And far, far more time than you've taken to read about it.

So, I'm not taking someone else's word. I've done it, seen it firsthand, learned about it extensively, and gotten degrees on it. The same as others I work with.

So, with all due respect, you are simply wrong and I'm sorry you've been led astray yet again.

 
I've actually taken the time to DO the science. And far, far more time than you've taken to read about it.

So, I'm not taking someone else's word. I've done it, seen it firsthand, learned about it extensively, and gotten degrees on it. The same as others I work with.

So, with all due respect, you are simply wrong and I'm sorry you've been led astray yet again.
This is from a reply I made on another post. Maybe it will help you understand my thoughts…maybe not.

Allow me to compare it to my experience with the Bible/religion. My whole life I was taught that the most compelling reason that “Jesus” was the “Messiah” was because he fulfilled so many prophecies from the Old Testament. All of the pastors and Bible scholars said so. They had done their research, they were men of God, they dedicated their lives to studying the Bible, who was I to question that? So I went to seminary and learned how to repeat and teach the doctrines. You don’t question it, you learn it, you reaffirm it, you  get indoctrinated even deeper with it, you cement your confirmation bias…and then you go and teach others…and they accept it because you’ve now become another “expert”, a “man of God” who shouldn’t be questioned by the lay people who don’t have the education. 
 

But then when you discover that it’s nonsense, you’re kicked out of the club…you’re a heretic, a backslidden heathen that others are warned not to believe. You try to explain what you’ve learned to others, but those in charge make sure that others know you’re no longer a trusted source, you’ve fallen away from the truth, you’re mocked and marginalized.

This is EXACTLY what happens in science today. Those who question the accepted narrative are mocked and marginalized and called “quacks” and “kooks”.

And you know why? Because too many people’s income is threatened if the truth gets out. The system has to stay propped up in order for those who rely on the system to keep benefitting from the system. Most people in the system don’t even realize the lies they’ve accepted and propagate, so don’t hear me saying that “everyone is in on it”. I wasn’t in on it when I was pastoring, but I was under the control of my own confirmation biases and cognitive dissonance. 

 
Welcome back.  Have you relinquished the Pirates as your team yet?
😂

Yes and no. I paid almost zero attention to the Pirates this year. But I do like what Ben Cherrington has done so far. We’ll see if they also improve their talent development. They might actually be worth watching again in a few years. 

 
This is from a reply I made on another post. Maybe it will help you understand my thoughts…maybe not.

Allow me to compare it to my experience with the Bible/religion. My whole life I was taught that the most compelling reason that “Jesus” was the “Messiah” was because he fulfilled so many prophecies from the Old Testament. All of the pastors and Bible scholars said so. They had done their research, they were men of God, they dedicated their lives to studying the Bible, who was I to question that? So I went to seminary and learned how to repeat and teach the doctrines. You don’t question it, you learn it, you reaffirm it, you  get indoctrinated even deeper with it, you cement your confirmation bias…and then you go and teach others…and they accept it because you’ve now become another “expert”, a “man of God” who shouldn’t be questioned by the lay people who don’t have the education. 
 

But then when you discover that it’s nonsense, you’re kicked out of the club…you’re a heretic, a backslidden heathen that others are warned not to believe. You try to explain what you’ve learned to others, but those in charge make sure that others know you’re no longer a trusted source, you’ve fallen away from the truth, you’re mocked and marginalized.

This is EXACTLY what happens in science today. Those who question the accepted narrative are mocked and marginalized and called “quacks” and “kooks”.

And you know why? Because too many people’s income is threatened if the truth gets out. The system has to stay propped up in order for those who rely on the system to keep benefitting from the system. Most people in the system don’t even realize the lies they’ve accepted and propagate, so don’t hear me saying that “everyone is in on it”. I wasn’t in on it when I was pastoring, but I was under the control of my own confirmation biases and cognitive dissonance. 
I understand how you've felt betrayed. You're not the first to come to that realization with religion. 

Science is a constant that has advanced civilization. It is inherently non biased.

The car you drive, the computer you are typing these replies on, the internet you are using to read and research, and countless other things are thanks to science. 

If you want to disavow science, then you should stop using all these things considering all the benefits from it that you use on a daily basis.

The same can't be said about religion and never could be. You are equating two things that were never equitable.

 
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I understand how you've felt betrayed. You're not the first to come to that realization with religion. 

Science is a constant that has advanced civilization. It is inherently non biased.

The car you drive, the computer you are typing these replies on, the internet you are using to read and research, and countless other things are thanks to science. 

If you want to disavow science, then you should stop using all these things considering all the benefits from it that you use on a daily basis.

The same can't be said about religion and never could be. You are equating two things that were never equitable.
There is no broad category of “science” that can blanket all things that lay claim to science. That’s part of the problem, in my opinion. I don’t reject everything that claims scientific backing, but I also don’t blindly accept it. And science used to be about constant challenge of currently accepted models in order to continually advance. Today it’s somehow become anathema to “question the science”. But questioning IS SCIENCE.

How many things throughout history were accepted as “the science” that we now realize was wrong? I happen to think germ theory will eventually end up on that same scrap heap. But that won’t happen until people are willing to entertain the idea that it could possibly be wrong. That’s science. Holding onto something as unassailable truth is religion. 

 
If people just took the time to actually read how the “science” is done, I think most would realize how unscientific germ theory truly is.  
I find these type of statements are often said by people significantly uneducated on a topic thinking they know more than the people who studied and worked in the field their entire life.

I can't imagine what it must be like to read a snippet on a questionable web site and then think you know more than people who have advanced degrees and decades in the field on a topic.

 
I find these type of statements are often said by people significantly uneducated on a topic thinking they know more than the people who studied and worked in the field their entire life.

I can't imagine what it must be like to read a snippet on a questionable web site and then think you know more than people who have advanced degrees and decades in the field on a topic.
Kinda crazy that you assume that’s how I arrived at my position. But hey, you do you. 👍🏼

 
Can you share with us what degrees you have in the field and how many years you have worked in germ/virus/vaccine related jobs? 
One thing I learned from being kicked out of the club in religion is that you can often learn the most from those who were kicked out of the club in their respective fields. Those are the people who have seen “behind the curtain” and had enough character and integrity to question the narrative. 
 

The idea that you can only question something if you have a degree in that field is a fallacy, an excuse of the lazy, and a control mechanism of the people who benefit from the existing system. 
 

See my example of my experience in religion, if you haven’t already. People don’t like to believe that religion and science have anything in common, but today’s corporate funded science is more religion than most want to believe.  

 
The idea that you can only question something if you have a degree in that field is a fallacy, an excuse of the lazy, and a control mechanism of the people who benefit from the existing system. .  
Again, this is a very common theme from people who are uneducated on a topic.

There is a ENORMOUS difference between questioning something because you want to learn more about and dismissing an entire field of study entirely as unscientific when you don't have either the education or experience to do so.

I am shocked you can't see the difference.

Questioning how something works is the very basis of the scientific method.  Please keep questioning everything around you, that is how we all learn, from the youngest kid, to the most experience scientist.  Dismissing things out of hand with out the education and knowledge seems like a terrible path to walk.

But hey, you do you! 👍

 
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My intention isn’t to mock anyone. I’m trying to challenge people to think for themselves. Blindly accepting the word of “trusted sources” is what tangled me up in religious nonsense for most of my life. Once you wake up to how many lies are told you start to see that same pattern in areas outside of religion. I’m not even sure why I originally got interested in virology and germ theory, but I did. And once I started reading it struck me that it used the same deception and “just trust the experts” approach as religion. 
 

If people just took the time to actually read how the “science” is done, I think most would realize how unscientific germ theory truly is.  
Okay.

Have you taken the time to seriously consider the possibility that your current experiences with learning about "virology and germ theory" are similar to your past experiences with learning about religion?

And have you also taken the time to seriously consider the possibility that your negative experience with religion is clouding your approach to other subjects?

And have you also taken the time to seriously consider the possibility that something can be imperfect without being false?

 
And have you also taken the time to seriously consider the possibility that something can be imperfect without being false?
This is a very important point.  Many/most sciences are not exact sciences.  We learn and improve on them as time goes on.   This can take years or decades or even centuries.  Some sciences will never be perfected, but will slowly improve over long periods of time.

300 years from now, how we view germ related information will look totally different from today, just as today looks totally different from how we viewed them 300 years ago.

 
Okay.

Have you taken the time to seriously consider the possibility that your current experiences with learning about "virology and germ theory" are similar to your past experiences with learning about religion?

And have you also taken the time to seriously consider the possibility that your negative experience with religion is clouding your approach to other subjects?

And have you also taken the time to seriously consider the possibility that something can be imperfect without being false?
Yes. Yes. And yes.

Actually, it’s my experience in having blindly accepted the ideas that I used to accept that have caused me to question and research other things that I also used to blindly accept. So it has not clouded my view, it has clarified it. I go into everything with eyes wide open at this point. My goal isn’t ever to prove or disprove anything that I already believe, but rather to understand it. 
 

And of course things can be imperfect without being false. A lot of science falls into that category because human beings are imperfect. But in the case of virology and germ theory, I’m 99% convinced it is false. There are much better explanations for disease, such as toxicity, stress, malnutrition, resonance, etc. 

 
Denial of solid information on COVID has a basis in politics and religion. So, no, you're not retired from it and you're already in the COVID thread talking about it.
Nope, you’ll never see me with a political or religious angle to any of that. I don’t side with either political party on this topic. I think both parties suck. 
 

And the only reason I’ve brought up religion is to compare my previous experience in religion to the current mindset regarding COVID. You might think you know what my beliefs are based on, but you’d be mistaken. 

 
Yes. Yes. And yes.

Actually, it’s my experience in having blindly accepted the ideas that I used to accept that have caused me to question and research other things that I also used to blindly accept. So it has not clouded my view, it has clarified it. I go into everything with eyes wide open at this point. My goal isn’t ever to prove or disprove anything that I already believe, but rather to understand it. 
 

And of course things can be imperfect without being false. A lot of science falls into that category because human beings are imperfect. But in the case of virology and germ theory, I’m 99% convinced it is false. There are much better explanations for disease, such as toxicity, stress, malnutrition, resonance, etc. 
You know we have microscopes, right?

 
By the way, I still love to discuss and debate, but I NEVER (ok, almost never 😉) get upset about it. So please don’t ever read into my replies that I’m mad or upset about our disagreements. Disagreement is how we learn. Having my ideas challenged (either by myself or others) is the only reason I’m not stuck in the same mindset that I was 5, 10, or 25 years ago! And so I also like to challenge other people as well. Not to win the argument, but to hopefully get people to think about something in a way that they may not on their own. 👍🏼

 
By the way, if anyone is genuinely interested in understanding why I question the entire germ theory premise, a good place to start would be  to listen to Inventing the AIDS Virus by Peter Duesberg. I say listening because the book is out of print and is obscenely expensive to buy used. But it’s affordable on Audible. 
 

That book won’t explain everything about why I don’t believe in the accuracy of germ theory, but it’s a great start. 

 
There is no broad category of “science” that can blanket all things that lay claim to science. That’s part of the problem, in my opinion. I don’t reject everything that claims scientific backing, but I also don’t blindly accept it. And science used to be about constant challenge of currently accepted models in order to continually advance. Today it’s somehow become anathema to “question the science”. But questioning IS SCIENCE.

How many things throughout history were accepted as “the science” that we now realize was wrong? I happen to think germ theory will eventually end up on that same scrap heap. But that won’t happen until people are willing to entertain the idea that it could possibly be wrong. That’s science. Holding onto something as unassailable truth is religion. 
You’re right that science should constantly be questioned, but the bar to scrap something like germ theory is incredibly high, due to decades of evidence in its favor. Without referring me to a video claiming Hoax!, etc., can you summarize where germ theory fails?

Which of Koch’s postulates are invalid?

What is really causing infectious disease?

If not causative, what are all the falsely accused microbes hanging out in various diseases actually doing?

If you were sick with an infection, would you refuse antimicrobial therapy?

What would it take to convince you germ theory is actually correct?

 
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I find these type of statements are often said by people significantly uneducated on a topic thinking they know more than the people who studied and worked in the field their entire life.

I can't imagine what it must be like to read a snippet on a questionable web site and then think you know more than people who have advanced degrees and decades in the field on a topic.
It’s this, but then with most conspiratorial trains of thought you also have to believe that the overwhelming number of experts who DID go through these rigorous educational tracks are also liars, cheaters, and all in on the same scams.

 
It’s this, but then with most conspiratorial trains of thought you also have to believe that the overwhelming number of experts who DID go through these rigorous educational tracks are also liars, cheaters, and all in on the same scams.
It is interesting you mentioned conspiracy theories. 

He recommended a book to read in one of his posts and when I looked it up, I saw that the book had been pretty disavowed in the scientific community for being full of conspiracy theories.

 
Actually, it’s my experience in having blindly accepted the ideas that I used to accept that have caused me to question and research other things that I also used to blindly accept. So it has not clouded my view, it has clarified it. I go into everything with eyes wide open at this point. 
IIRC, you actually professed to have a similar mindset during your previous stint on this board, except that instead of reading about "virology and germ theory", you boasted of the knowledge that you gained from reading the Bible.

I certainly don't recall you stating that you blindly accepted everything about the Christian religion.

 
It is interesting you mentioned conspiracy theories. 

He recommended a book to read in one of his posts and when I looked it up, I saw that the book had been pretty disavowed in the scientific community for being full of conspiracy theories.
I can usually tell right away when someone has been sucked into the algorithm.

 
You’re right that science should constantly be questioned, but the bar to scrap something like germ theory is incredibly high, due to decades of evidence in its favor. Without referring me to a video claiming Hoax!, etc., can you summarize where germ theory fails?

Which of Koch’s postulates are invalid?

What is really causing infectious disease?

If not causative, what are all the falsely accused microbes hanging out in various diseases actually doing?

If you were sick with an infection, would you refuse antimicrobials therapy?

What would it take to convince you germ theory is actually correct?
Great questions.

First, I have no issues with Koch’s postulates. The problem is that science doesn’t even follow Koch’s postulates. They didn’t follow them for HIV/AIDS, they didn’t follow them for SARS-COV/COVID, and they didn’t follow them for most other “infectious diseases”. If you don’t believe me, look at the studies yourself. Not just the headlines, look at the methodology. They never isolated HIV or SARS from a sick patient. They’ve completely changed the definition of “isolate”. The purported isolate is always some witches brew that contains a dozen other things other than the virus. Stefan Lanka reproduced the exact same process that the CDC used to “prove” SARS-COV2 was the case of disease and got the exact same results by using everything EXCEPT the supposed virus.

There are a variety of things that cause what we refer to as disease…toxins, stress, malnutrition, resonance, and probably a few other things. But none of it is “infectious” in the way that we’ve been taught about infection. If you put a bunch of women together in the same living environment, their cycles will synchronize. That’s not infection, it’s resonance. There are lots of examples in nature of resonance or some other type of communication process that causes living things to “sync” with other living things. But those things aren’t “infection” or “contagion”. 

Virologists acknowledge that “viruses” are indistinguishable from exosomes. Exosomes are the result of cellular breakdown when tissue is dead or dying. So I (and there are other doctors/scientists who believe this) believe that what scientists are seeing in their electron microscopes are exosomes present as a result of disease, not there because they are causing disease. The same way you find bacteria, fungus and other things present when you find a dead tree or animal in the woods. They didn’t cause the deaths, they are there to clean up the result of the death. They are nature’s garbage men.

As for refusing treatment, it would depend on the bacterial load. Certain bacteria produce enough toxins when present in large enough numbers that the toxicity can kill you. So there are times that you do need to reduce the amount of bacteria present. But it ultimately isn’t the bacteria that’s the problem, it’s the toxicity.

What would cause me to believe in germ theory? Evidence that it’s true. And I simply don’t see that evidence right now. The evidence I see points to the terrain being the cause of disease. Eliminate the toxins, reduce the stress, improve the nutrition, and you’ll relieve the disease. 
 

By the way, do you know what they do to tissue samples in order to prove that a “virus” is the cause of disease? They starve and poison it. Look at the experiments for yourself. 
 

Again, great questions, thanks for actually engaging in a discussion. I don’t expect to change everyone’s mind but I appreciate anyone who is at least interested in hearing an alternative theory. 👍🏼

 
This title to the thread is surely misleading. You couldn't have been....

Yes, you could have.

Good day. Hope I never see you around.

 
Good to have you back Cross. I always enjoyed our discussions. 
I don’t really want to debate Covid with you, but I will ask you a simple question: hospital beds are filling up rapidly. That poses a public health risk to all of us since we need those beds open for all kinds of diseases and sickness. What do you propose we do about this if vaccines aren’t the answer? 

 

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