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The Constitution Secures Ends, It Is Not The End (1 Viewer)

rockaction

Footballguy
Lately I have broken with my former political compatriots because I see that they do not respect many things that I hold sacrosanct. One of those things that they claim is sacrosanct but -- in my opinion -- they do a poor job of respecting while seemingly always pointing to it is the Constitution Of The United States, the document upon which our nation is founded.

The Constitution itself is viewed, and wonderfully so, as a national treasure, a code that is a blueprint for our happiness and survival. We see the word "happiness" in the preamble to our revolutionary declaration, our Declaration Of Independence, which foregoes other such tangible words and reasons for revolution and settles on that word. That our Creator secures the self-evident right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness is the touchstone for revolutions, that denial of these things gives us the moral and legal authority to overthrow the binding authority of previous legalisms. 

All well and good then, that's high school, or these days, collegiate civics, basic and unimpeded. But what did the Declaration portend? What did the later document that people cite as authority do? Well, the Constitution was hotly debated, its measures were often compromises, and it had trouble in its ratification. But the nation longed for something more stable than the Articles Of Confederation that had governed from 1781-1789, an arrangement between the sovereign states that proved unworkable. So back to the drawing board for the Constitution.

All well and good again. But what does that tell us, that interim, that ratification process of the new document that would govern our lives. Well, it tells us that there is something the predates the Constitution as an impetus for self-governance. What are those things? Well, we look to the Founders' intellectual influences. Well, in antiquity there is Aristotle. His taxonomical inclinations and scientific leanings in antiquity are the touchstones of modern Enlightenment thought. Then there are Rosseau, Locke, Hobbes, and Montesquieu, the most influential of contract theory philosophers in the Enlightenment. Again, this is political philosophy for beginners, so what is the point here?

The point is this: The Constitution defends the ends of society. What brings about these ends? Why does society organize at all? Because, according to three of the contract theorists, the State of Nature, where man exists freely without governance, turns inevitably into a State of War, or a war of all against all, so people seek to civilize themselves from their first impulses towards killing into a sharing, altruistic form of self-governance whereby a contract is created among those seeking reprieve from the killing. It is a philosophical detente, one that provides that we give a bit of ourselves over to the state for security and, therefore, existence.

Some say freedom, but existence is the first secured thing upon leaving the state of nature. All other impulses, the contract theorists theorize, follow from this newfound security. No longer "nasty, brutish, and short," governance allows us to respect each other's most basic boundaries. Still 101, right? Fine, the point is that the Constitution, quite simply put, follows from the original philosophical impulse out of the State of Nature and into organized governance. Where the tension, then? Well, Rousseau and the section of the American intellectuals that followed French contract theory believed that the state of nature was actually a place where man was born free and lived happily. However, over time he came to have families and communities, and these communities and families introduced agriculture and private property, which then became enforced by a force that corrupted man's original state of happiness. Rousseau posited that it was the first interventions on behalf of the state that caused man's unhappiness, unlike the other contract theorists that posited that it was man's nature that caused the first problems.

Even with these divergent views of man's nature, one comes to contract theory through one of two conclusions. Either the state of nature is always corrupt and redeemed by contract, or the state of nature in which man was happy is impossible to attain again after the advent of family and rules, and therefore contract theory is the only thing that can restore man to his proper state of freedom and security. The two schools of thought propose radically different things for the restoration, but the agreement is there that there is a corrupting force somewhere and that contract theory is the way out.

So what does this mean for the Constitution. Well it means a lot of compromise. And it means two camps, the Anti-Federalists and The Federalists, who have differing conceptions of how government comes to be, how it should work, and the means best to secure those ends.

And that is the point. That the Constitution has ends. It is not a sacrosanct end unto itself other than preservation of the Republic as we know it. It secures our freedom and our need for security. How it does that is through a utopian view of political science, but it is a methodology and means nonetheless, a compromise born of philosophy and expediency.

So what is the point? The point is that impulses and desires predate the Constitution. It has ends. When people seek to discard its methodology and keep the same ends, they are fundamentally changing its purpose, which is a means-based document. A means-based document should not be cited as an end to itself, nor should its means be altered lightly as its ends and compromises have been considered at extraordinarily high levels of thought and abstraction.

That is what I what everyone to remember. That the Constitution, while providing for some of the most stable and conscientious government in the world, is a utile document, a political end, but one used to serve other ends, ends that are both more vital and a touch more abstract. That is what I ask people to remember upon its consideration. Thanks for your time.

 
Other than the preamble I don't think much of the Constitution is "utopian".  That is unless one believed that "compromised" could be "utopian".   Other than that I'm only guessing as to what you might mean in terms of applying these thoughts to the current political environment.  

One of those guesses is that you are asking us to really consider the "imperial presidency" and how that "ends" that we may support are not worth achieving if the "means" are via the executive branch (i.e. the President) exceeding their Constitutional authority.   I guess a corollary would be that Congress keeps ceding such authority to the executive branch by setting vague goals in legislation and then assigning regulatory authority to work out the details to one administrative agency or another.    If you want to go "all in" maybe also opposing the Supreme Courts growing fondness for its shadow docket, but while that may fit the overall sentiment that we are getting too deep in the "ends justifies the means" thinking it seems like a stretch in the context of the Constitutional thoughts.

It that is not at least close then :shrug:  

 
Other than the preamble I don't think much of the Constitution is "utopian".  That is unless one believed that "compromised" could be "utopian".   Other than that I'm only guessing as to what you might mean in terms of applying these thoughts to the current political environment.  

One of those guesses is that you are asking us to really consider the "imperial presidency" and how that "ends" that we may support are not worth achieving if the "means" are via the executive branch (i.e. the President) exceeding their Constitutional authority.   I guess a corollary would be that Congress keeps ceding such authority to the executive branch by setting vague goals in legislation and then assigning regulatory authority to work out the details to one administrative agency or another.    If you want to go "all in" maybe also opposing the Supreme Courts growing fondness for its shadow docket, but while that may fit the overall sentiment that we are getting too deep in the "ends justifies the means" thinking it seems like a stretch in the context of the Constitutional thoughts.

It that is not at least close then :shrug:


It was really a more basic point. That government is there to provide security and stability to those that it governs. It was why I spent a bunch of paragraphs describing contract theory and the state of nature. When governance is viewed as entirely rights-based or duty-based, people are forgetting the ultimate aim of governance, which is to stop the war of all against all, except in the most drastic and dire of situations.

Those that claim a positive or negative right to an abstraction or a potentially realized state of being are really making a claim that the "right" does not infringe upon the state's mission. What that is becomes tough to define, but we trade certain freedoms we have in the state of nature for the security of the state. Our specific form of government takes certain "rights" and places them above democratic reproach, but these are there to ensure that we have the means to a freedom away from the state. Those are not the rights that I'm concerned with. The increasing drumbeat about claiming certain "rights" fundamental to freedom are not the God-given ones that the Founders removed from consideration. They are those "rights" that require a balancing act between the state and their recognition.

If you're looking for modern consideration, I'd ask people to reconsider their less fundamental "rights," especially their rights over autonomy of body. I would argue we do not have full autonomy of body. We do not transgress against others with impunity. We have always had laws against murder, rape, compulsion, arbitrary detention and jailing -- kidnapping, as it were. What I would ask is that before people holler about autonomy and the supposed rights and other such things granted by the Constitution, we ask what the ends of the Constitution actually were. To promote life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness are the ends of governance, according to our own Declaration, a document that sits as one of the founding documents of our Republic. Not to promote the right to "autonomy" or "privacy" or other such abstract notions considered by the Founders and ultimately rejected at the local level as bad governance, but to promote the ends of government, those that allow us to exist.

If this isn't making sense, let me spell it out. You have no right to full autonomy over your body at the expense of everybody else. The state of nature and governance has always allowed for detention, quarantine, forced inoculation. You have no right to refuse a vaccine at the state level.

Deal with it.

 
It was really a more basic point. That government is there to provide security and stability to those that it governs. It was why I spent a bunch of paragraphs describing contract theory and the state of nature. When governance is viewed as entirely rights-based or duty-based, people are forgetting the ultimate aim of governance, which is to stop the war of all against all, except in the most drastic and dire of situations.

Those that claim a positive or negative right to an abstraction or a potentially realized state of being are really making a claim that the "right" does not infringe upon the state's mission. What that is becomes tough to define, but we trade certain freedoms we have in the state of nature for the security of the state. Our specific form of government takes certain "rights" and places them above democratic reproach, but these are there to ensure that we have the means to a freedom away from the state. Those are not the rights that I'm concerned with. The increasing drumbeat about claiming certain "rights" fundamental to freedom are not the God-given ones that the Founders removed from consideration. They are those "rights" that require a balancing act between the state and their recognition.

If you're looking for modern consideration, I'd ask people to reconsider their less fundamental "rights," especially their rights over autonomy of body. I would argue we do not have full autonomy of body. We do not transgress against others with impunity. We have always had laws against murder, rape, compulsion, arbitrary detention and jailing -- kidnapping, as it were. What I would ask is that before people holler about autonomy and the supposed rights and other such things granted by the Constitution, we ask what the ends of the Constitution actually were. To promote life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness are the ends of governance, according to our own Declaration, a document that sits as one of the founding documents of our Republic. Not to promote the right to "autonomy" or "privacy" or other such abstract notions considered by the Founders and ultimately rejected at the local level as bad governance, but to promote the ends of government, those that allow us to exist.

If this isn't making sense, let me spell it out. You have no right to full autonomy over your body at the expense of everybody else. The state of nature and governance has always allowed for detention, quarantine, forced inoculation. You have no right to refuse a vaccine at the state level.

Deal with it.
https://www.dailywire.com/news/constitution-declaration-of-independence-now-have-trigger-warnings-on-national-archives-site

You've really gone  of the deep end.    You know you are now on the side of the trigger warning kOOks.    

Let me ask you a question.    Who owns your person.   What % of you do you own and what % is owned by the government? 

Pretty basic question based on that post you just made.

 
https://www.dailywire.com/news/constitution-declaration-of-independence-now-have-trigger-warnings-on-national-archives-site

You've really gone  of the deep end.    You know you are now on the side of the trigger warning kOOks.    

Let me ask you a question.    Who owns your person.   What % of you do you own and what % is owned by the government? 

Pretty basic question based on that post you just made.
Who said, anywhere, that the Declaration was racist or that I supported that?

You do not own your own body in the way you think you do. The movement from the state of nature to governance shows the Founders didn't, either. These are ordered and managed affairs within governance. Yours is a radical version of autonomy the Founders never accepted.

 
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Indeed, forced inoculation at the state level was the norm in the Twentieth Century. Police went, house to house, and inoculated the immigrant populations forcibly. I can cite where that comes from if you'd like. It was considered within the police power of the State to do so.

There was never a radical conception of autonomy like the ones people are peddling today. That somehow vaccine mandates directed at federal workers are stripping of their "rights" is entirely laughable to a true libertarian or conservative.

But the right is not conservative. It's a mish-mash of intellectual Trump garbage stemming from a sickness that has befallen the populace mixed with a lack of understanding about the Founding and basic civics.

 
It was really a more basic point. That government is there to provide security and stability to those that it governs. It was why I spent a bunch of paragraphs describing contract theory and the state of nature. When governance is viewed as entirely rights-based or duty-based, people are forgetting the ultimate aim of governance, which is to stop the war of all against all, except in the most drastic and dire of situations.

Those that claim a positive or negative right to an abstraction or a potentially realized state of being are really making a claim that the "right" does not infringe upon the state's mission. What that is becomes tough to define, but we trade certain freedoms we have in the state of nature for the security of the state. Our specific form of government takes certain "rights" and places them above democratic reproach, but these are there to ensure that we have the means to a freedom away from the state. Those are not the rights that I'm concerned with. The increasing drumbeat about claiming certain "rights" fundamental to freedom are not the God-given ones that the Founders removed from consideration. They are those "rights" that require a balancing act between the state and their recognition.

If you're looking for modern consideration, I'd ask people to reconsider their less fundamental "rights," especially their rights over autonomy of body. I would argue we do not have full autonomy of body. We do not transgress against others with impunity. We have always had laws against murder, rape, compulsion, arbitrary detention and jailing -- kidnapping, as it were. What I would ask is that before people holler about autonomy and the supposed rights and other such things granted by the Constitution, we ask what the ends of the Constitution actually were. To promote life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness are the ends of governance, according to our own Declaration, a document that sits as one of the founding documents of our Republic. Not to promote the right to "autonomy" or "privacy" or other such abstract notions considered by the Founders and ultimately rejected at the local level as bad governance, but to promote the ends of government, those that allow us to exist.

If this isn't making sense, let me spell it out. You have no right to full autonomy over your body at the expense of everybody else. The state of nature and governance has always allowed for detention, quarantine, forced inoculation. You have no right to refuse a vaccine at the state level.

Deal with it.
Oh, that is fine. Don't disagree.

Feels kind of anti climatic.  

 
I find it bizarre that I'm lectured about being on the side of trigger-warning kOOks regarding the Constitution or the Declaration. That's laughable. I'm not on their side. I'm not on any side. I'm on the side that knows that the Constitution secures ends of governance, not that is it governance. That should be a pretty easy statement to digest. This is why I went through the 101s to get there.

 
Oh, that is fine. Don't disagree.

Feels kind of anti climatic. 
I'm not writing it for you. I'm writing it for people that need to see it spelled out at the philosophical level why I agree with a vaccine mandate at the State level. The people who will rush to paint me as having a "side" will now have it spelled out where I believe governance comes from, what the Founders thought of that, where they were challenged, where we are at now.

You would certainly, however, disagree with me about "privacy" as relates to grocery stores selling contraception (Griswold v. Connecticut 1965), and you'd disagree with me as much as others would disagree with me about the desirability and efficacy of having States implement vaccine mandates.

 
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I find it bizarre that I'm lectured about being on the side of trigger-warning kOOks regarding the Constitution or the Declaration. That's laughable. I'm not on their side. I'm not on any side. I'm on the side that knows that the Constitution secures ends of governance, not that is it governance. That should be a pretty easy statement to digest. This is why I went through the 101s to get there.
You think you are being lectured too.

Yea.  

 
Re read what you just said.    I'm not feeling like I'm getting lectured.  You do.   Which is a bit juvenile.    Big boy pants kiddo
Ah, I see. My bad. I used the word "lectured." I was assigned or made strange bedfellows with people who hold a position I do not hold. But not really lectured to, per se. Big boy pants are on. Mea culpa.

 

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