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The need to be "right" is the real sickness here (1 Viewer)

Jayrod

Jayrod

Footballguy
I have a theory that the real problem in our society isn't politics or vaccines or football officials, but the insecure obsession our society has with being "right".

I believe the reason people can't back off of Qanon or refuse to believe the candidate they voted for was a bad decision is they can't accept that they were wrong.  Because if they are wrong, they are a bad person and have failed and people will look down on them and their fragile egos can't take it.  It all boils down to personal insecurity and self-worth.  Because if they are right, they are good and if they are wrong they are bad...which also has some links to being judgmental themselves and looking down on others who they deem as "stupid" of foolish.

And to be clear, I'm not pointing fingers but looking in the mirror here.  I'm as guilty of it as anybody but you are seeing it play out in real time right now with serious consequences as anti-vaxxers are refusing to admit that they are dying of COVID while in the hospital dying of COVID, which I have personally seen twice now.

Trump voters, Biden voters, Hillary voters, anti-vax, pro-life, pro-choice, anti-gun, pro-gun, LBGTQXYZ, etc. are all dug in for the long haul and many refuse to listen to anything counter to their previously determined stances.  IMO, its almost entirely based on personal insecurity and that fact that deep down we know we suck and don't want anyone else to know.

 
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Jayrod said:
I have a theory that the real problem in our society isn't politics or vaccines or football officials, but the insecure obsession our society has with being "right".

I believe the reason people can't back off of Qanon or refuse to believe the candidate they voted for was a bad decision is they can't except that they were wrong.  Because if they are wrong, they are a bad person and have failed and people will look down on them and their fragile egos can't take it.  It all boils down to personal insecurity and self-worth.  Because if they are right, they are good and if they are wrong they are bad...which also has some links to being judgmental themselves and looking down on others who they deem as "stupid" of foolish.

And to be clear, I'm not pointing fingers but looking in the mirror here.  I'm as guilty of it as anybody but you are seeing it play out in real time right now with serious consequences as anti-vaxxers are refusing to admit that they are dying of COVID while in the hospital dying of COVID, which I have personally seen twice now.

Trump voters, Biden voters, Hillary voters, anti-vax, pro-life, pro-choice, anti-gun, pro-gun, LBGTQXYZ, etc. are all dug in for the long haul and many refuse to listen to anything counter to their previously determined stances.  IMO, its almost entirely based on personal insecurity and that fact that deep down we know we suck and don't want anyone else to know.
Click to expand...
Psychological basis

 
Jayrod said:
I have a theory that the real problem in our society isn't politics or vaccines or football officials, but the insecure obsession our society has with being "right".

I believe the reason people can't back off of Qanon or refuse to believe the candidate they voted for was a bad decision is they can't except that they were wrong.  Because if they are wrong, they are a bad person and have failed and people will look down on them and their fragile egos can't take it.  It all boils down to personal insecurity and self-worth.  Because if they are right, they are good and if they are wrong they are bad...which also has some links to being judgmental themselves and looking down on others who they deem as "stupid" of foolish.

And to be clear, I'm not pointing fingers but looking in the mirror here.  I'm as guilty of it as anybody but you are seeing it play out in real time right now with serious consequences as anti-vaxxers are refusing to admit that they are dying of COVID while in the hospital dying of COVID, which I have personally seen twice now.

Trump voters, Biden voters, Hillary voters, anti-vax, pro-life, pro-choice, anti-gun, pro-gun, LBGTQXYZ, etc. are all dug in for the long haul and many refuse to listen to anything counter to their previously determined stances.  IMO, its almost entirely based on personal insecurity and that fact that deep down we know we suck and don't want anyone else to know.
Click to expand...


if it makes you feel any better, I'm pretty sure we all already know that you suck.

I kid.

unapologetic intractability has become an awful part of our times.

 
Captain Cranks said:
Psychological basis
Click to expand...
That's a good summary and better put than my OP.

It describes my uncle to a T.  His relationship with his father was so damaging that he never recovered and lived a life crippled by insecurity which manifest into him never being able to admit he was wrong about anything...right up until his death by COVID two weeks ago.

Also, I have a Qanon friend who I wouldn't have put in this category of insecurity while growing up.  However, he has had a rough go in adulthood with an unstable wife and yo-yo career.   Anyway, his condescending looks when we discussed the "stolen" election seemed really different from anything I'd seen out of him when we were growing up and he has done nothing but double down on how right he is and wrong everyone else is.

It seems like some people may be hardwired into this tendency, some people are driven to it at a young age by their childhood/parental situations and some people can develop it over time through various influences.

I wonder if it is a default state that we need to mature out of or something we are driven to through experience?  Either way, as with every psychological issue, awareness is the first step to recovery.  I've been trying to see when/where I display these tendencies in my own life and am trying to overcome the "scared little boy" inside of me when I see it.

 
One thing I’ve noticed in recent years: not only do people need to be right, but they also need to believe that the majority of everybody else agrees with them. 
 

 
Sand said:
The right believe the left are people with bad ideas.  The left believe the right are bad people.
Click to expand...
I don’t agree with you about this. My personal experience is that many folks on both sides think the other side are bad people and that this has gotten worse in recent years. 
But even more than that, I think that more and more people on either side believes the other side hates them, irrationally so. And motives are often ascribed which often have no relationship to reality. 

 
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Jayrod said:
I wonder if it is a default state that we need to mature out of or something we are driven to through experience?  Either way, as with every psychological issue, awareness is the first step to recovery.  I've been trying to see when/where I display these tendencies in my own life and am trying to overcome the "scared little boy" inside of me when I see it.
Click to expand...
Self-awareness is a rare attribute, I find.  A lot of times it takes someone from the outside to point out our behaviors.  For example, I never knew how direct/insensitive I could be until my wife pointed it out to me.   

 
Sand said:
The right believe the left are people with bad ideas.  The left believe the right are bad people.
Click to expand...
This doesn't reconcile with my experience at all.  You don't have to look any further than right wing media to hear how "evil" liberals are and how they're ruining this country.  I see conservatives post on Facebook all the time that "these people are truly evil." 

 
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There's one other aspect to this - admitting you are wrong means that "the other guy" was right.  We have gotten so partisan in this country that giving the other team a win is unconsionable.  We reinforce and double-down because everything is a zero-sum game, and everything is politicized.

 
I both agree and disagree. If one totally buys into the idea, you risk something worse where now "both sides" of every issue are equally "right" or "wrong". Somethings are actually so out of balance where one side is on the side of fact and truth regarding an issue or stance that the other is given too much power and put on equal footing when they shouldn't be to the detriment of society.

 
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timschochet said:
I don’t agree with you about this. My personal experience is that many folks on both sides think the other side are bad people and that this has gotten worse in recent years. 
But even more than that, I think that more and more people on either side believes the other side hates them, irrationally so. And motives are often ascribed which often have no relationship to reality. 
Click to expand...
Cable news and social media are stoking this fire, unfortunately.

 
I'm currently reading The Scout Mindset.  I've never heard of the author before, but this book is basically like Slate Star Codex only in book form and therefore shorter and breezier than SSC itself.  There are lots of good lessons that I've encountered so far, not the least of which being that if you can't easily recall a few times when you've been wrong about something, you're probably not reasoning very well.    

 
Giving a "legitimate" voice to the crazies isn't helping, and I mean all the fringes now have platforms and backing, and are getting supported because they might be helpful to someones career at some point

 
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Being wrong sucks, but it’s a fact of life. I’ve tried to always be right, and it doesn’t end well. My dad has told me, it takes a big man to admit when you’re wrong, and he’s right. There is nothing so important that I have to be right about it, no matter what. I’d rather know the truth instead of believing a lie. After all, Jesus was right when He said, “You will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”

 
Kal El said:
Being wrong sucks, but it’s a fact of life. I’ve tried to always be right, and it doesn’t end well. My dad has told me, it takes a big man to admit when you’re wrong, and he’s right. There is nothing so important that I have to be right about it, no matter what. I’d rather know the truth instead of believing a lie. After all, Jesus was right when He said, “You will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”
Click to expand...
Once you recognize there are two ways in life things become much easier. There is the Bass way and then there is the wrong way. 

 
If we assume you are right what is your theory on when that would have changed?  I would think that's always been the case and the difference now is media/social media and everyone knowing so much about each other (ironically while really not knowing anything).  I think the idea that one wants to be right is a human thing that has been around forever.  How it now manifests itself in today's world is the real game changer.

 
Captain Cranks said:
Cable news and social media are stoking this fire, unfortunately.
Click to expand...


If you haven't watched "The Social Dilema" it talks about this specifically. Social media companies, because they want you to stay online using their platforms, finds out what you like and then cater their newsfeed to you to make it things you like. So a person who spends a lot of time on right wing websites will get fed news that feeds to the right wing point of view, so that person will stay online looking at the news stories they get. Because they are now getting news with a right wing slant, it reinforces their right wing beliefs, and further emboldens them to speak out against the other side because they have evidence (with a right wing bias) to support it. It works the same way with someone who leans left.

Fascinating and totally scary.

 
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Sand said:
The right believe the left are people with bad ideas.  The left believe the right are bad people.
Click to expand...
My father refers to them as Demoncrats. I'm pretty sure they both believe both things about the other side.

They're both right. And becoming righter by the day.

 
dhockster said:
If you haven't watched "The Social Dilema" it talks about this specifically. Social media companies, because they want you to stay online using their platforms, finds out what you like and then cater their newsfeed to you to make it things you like. So a person who spends a lot of time on right wing websites will get fed news that feeds to the right wing point of view, so that person will stay online looking at the news stories they get. Because they are now getting news with a right wing slant, it reinforces their right wing beliefs, and further emboldens them to speak out against the other side because they have evidence (with a right wing bias) to support it. It works the same way with someone who leans left.

Fascinating and totally scary.
Click to expand...
Exactly.  This is harming our society and it's on us to be aware of it and avoid it.

A steady diet of fear

 
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I will say it or the roots of it seem to have been around for awhile- at least politically. I think if people were to discuss it in the abstract, they would agree that in the face of new information, it is actually smart to change ones opinion. However the political "gotcha" of highlighting someone's changed position as a fault or sign of weakness seems a long standing tradition in the States. 

 
Jayrod said:
I have a theory that the real problem in our society isn't politics or vaccines or football officials, but the insecure obsession our society has with being "right".

I believe the reason people can't back off of Qanon or refuse to believe the candidate they voted for was a bad decision is they can't accept that they were wrong.  Because if they are wrong, they are a bad person and have failed and people will look down on them and their fragile egos can't take it.  It all boils down to personal insecurity and self-worth.  Because if they are right, they are good and if they are wrong they are bad...which also has some links to being judgmental themselves and looking down on others who they deem as "stupid" of foolish.

And to be clear, I'm not pointing fingers but looking in the mirror here.  I'm as guilty of it as anybody but you are seeing it play out in real time right now with serious consequences as anti-vaxxers are refusing to admit that they are dying of COVID while in the hospital dying of COVID, which I have personally seen twice now.

Trump voters, Biden voters, Hillary voters, anti-vax, pro-life, pro-choice, anti-gun, pro-gun, LBGTQXYZ, etc. are all dug in for the long haul and many refuse to listen to anything counter to their previously determined stances.  IMO, its almost entirely based on personal insecurity and that fact that deep down we know we suck and don't want anyone else to know.
Click to expand...


timschochet said:
I don’t agree with you about this. My personal experience is that many folks on both sides think the other side are bad people and that this has gotten worse in recent years. 
But even more than that, I think that more and more people on either side believes the other side hates them, irrationally so. And motives are often ascribed which often have no relationship to reality. 
Click to expand...
Exhibit A 

 
timschochet said:
One thing I’ve noticed in recent years: not only do people need to be right, but they also need to believe that the majority of everybody else agrees with them. 
 
Click to expand...
This isn’t always true. Look at the I’m back new and improved thread with the COVID doesn’t exist dude. He specifically has said that he thinks his ideas are a minority as if he’s that guy in the meme who thinks he’s discovered something that experts and scientists don’t know. Those conspiracy theorists absolutely don’t think they are in the majority and that everyone agrees with them. I think they believe they are special because they are fighting against the sheep majority who don’t know the truth or blindly follow the government and scientists.

 
Jayrod said:
I have a theory that the real problem in our society isn't politics or vaccines or football officials, but the insecure obsession our society has with being "right".

I believe the reason people can't back off of Qanon or refuse to believe the candidate they voted for was a bad decision is they can't accept that they were wrong.  Because if they are wrong, they are a bad person and have failed and people will look down on them and their fragile egos can't take it.  It all boils down to personal insecurity and self-worth.  Because if they are right, they are good and if they are wrong they are bad...which also has some links to being judgmental themselves and looking down on others who they deem as "stupid" of foolish.

And to be clear, I'm not pointing fingers but looking in the mirror here.  I'm as guilty of it as anybody but you are seeing it play out in real time right now with serious consequences as anti-vaxxers are refusing to admit that they are dying of COVID while in the hospital dying of COVID, which I have personally seen twice now.

Trump voters, Biden voters, Hillary voters, anti-vax, pro-life, pro-choice, anti-gun, pro-gun, LBGTQXYZ, etc. are all dug in for the long haul and many refuse to listen to anything counter to their previously determined stances.  IMO, its almost entirely based on personal insecurity and that fact that deep down we know we suck and don't want anyone else to know.
Click to expand...
Some might call it "pride".

 
I've found that to exist in today's society I need to keep two seemingly contradictory thoughts in my head at the same time: one, that there are people whose political beliefs I find utterly irrational; and two, that there are sane, intelligent people who believe the same thing about me.

 
Things seem to be changing fast. Bernie would not have been mainstream 20 years ago. The last three Republican nominees for president before Trump would now be considered RINOs.  Mitt Romney and Cindy McCain were censures by the GOP this year.  Extremism is winning. 

 
Captain Cranks said:
Tim disagreed with Sand's statement (which, for some reason, you omitted).  How is that evidence of "the need to be right?"
Click to expand...
Use the search function and see how many times he’s posted “I disagree” on these boards

Choosing the “everyone needs to be right” thread to do it again is icing on the cake 

 
The Goldbugs and Silverites are probably still fighting that fight in the afterworld. Same as it ever was I suppose. 

 
Cowboysfan8 said:
Use the search function and see how many times he’s posted “I disagree” on these boards

Choosing the “everyone needs to be right” thread to do it again is icing on the cake 
Click to expand...
I disagree a lot, I agree a lot. I don’t need to be right. I’m wrong a lot. 
But I don’t agree with what Sand wrote. I don’t believe there’s a big difference between how liberals and conservatives view each other. A loud minority on either side really dislike the other side. Most of us don’t. 

Personally I can’t stand the growing hostility. It’s a big reason I took a hiatus from posting in the politics forum. I don’t mind being told my ideas are wrong but I do mind being told that I’m a bad person for believing them. I’m sure most conservatives feel the same way. 

 
timschochet said:
Personally I can’t stand the growing hostility. It’s a big reason I took a hiatus from posting in the politics forum. I don’t mind being told my ideas are wrong but I do mind being told that I’m a bad person for believing them. I’m sure most conservatives feel the same way. 
Click to expand...
I’m sure they do too. You and about a dozen others have told them that they were responsible every time Trump did something stupid. 
 

Then you chirped once or twice a week about how high Biden’s approval rating was. 
 

And when his rating started dropping, you disappeared 

And as far as “you can’t stand the growing hostility “…..the PSF was really nothing but hostility when Trump was in the WH…it didn’t seem to bother you at all then

imo

 
At some point, don't we just have to acknowledge that it is a near universal human nature to group ourselves into "us" and "them"? And too then be hostile towards "the other"? I am not sure how we beat that part of our nature, but our natural instincts are a problem.  

 
Cowboysfan8 said:
I’m sure they do too. You and about a dozen others have told them that they were responsible every time Trump did something stupid. 
 

Then you chirped once or twice a week about how high Biden’s approval rating was. 
 

And when his rating started dropping, you disappeared 

And as far as “you can’t stand the growing hostility “…..the PSF was really nothing but hostility when Trump was in the WH…it didn’t seem to bother you at all then

imo
Click to expand...
I have no idea where the FFA and PSF line is but I am sure you have crossed it. No offense, just thinking this doesn't fit here. 

 
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